An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Sorry Vikram,
I could not read ur blog, because it is too big and i don’t have time to read. I will read if u get some spare time.
Deepak,
My dear friend, I visited KISHORE’s house in Juhu, KiSHORE KUMAR GANGULY MARG. It has only K L Saigal photo and Dev Anand. He did not have Rafi photo though he admired Rafi. (false information spread by few Rafians)
YOu are right, he alwayd recommended Rafi as alternative for him. You know, Kishore always show his incompetency (in Joyous mood ) that he is not able to sing phalana phalana song. There are 2 examples
– Sachhai chhup nahi sakti from “Dushaman”
– Haal kya hai dilo ka na pochho sanam
He asked LP to call Rafi for these 2 songs, but LP knew that only KISHORE could do justice to these songs and rest are history.
Manish Kumar, My dear friend, Rafi was alwys there. Nobody came back to him after 76. he was very much active from 70 to 76. But i must say he again come in the limelight after winning national award for HKSKN and nomination for AAA movies. But history witness that he never regain his position. You can write and say whatever you feel, but it will not chnage the history.
FYI, Not only I heard Laila Majnu songs but also i watched the movie, they are definetely good songs but i can’t hear them more than once. Whereas i can hear “Chand mera dil”,”Maine poocha chand se”, “Parda hai parda”,”Dard-e-dil” infinite times of 70s.
There are many “PADAMSHREE”s who doesnot deserve. There was a program on NDTV last week on Bharat Ratna. Many deserving people denied this award in past. Mere dost, “PADAMSHREE”,”PADAM VIBHUSHAN” and “BHARAT RATNA”, If you remember RAMVILAS PAWAN (dirty politician-play caste and minority politics) recommneded TATYA TOPE, RAFI and one more name(i forgot) for BHARAT RATNA. You know why he recommended these 3 names because all belongs to either SC,ST or minority.
I always believe in award which masses and classes approve. After 27 years since he past, peolple like you and me are talking abt him and kishore (20 years since past) is real award.
My dear friend, Sanjeev Kumar was more versatile actor than Amitabh. He performed almost all character during his acting career. He (SK) is famous no doubt, but AMITABH is AMITABH, same for KISHORE.
As a Kishore fan I must to say that Rafi Saab had a clear,expression ,silky smooth voice which was suited to Lata Rafi.However Kishore had a mid range maste type of voice which suited high energy type of singing (Asha suited)and sometimes really excelled at sad songs .Rafi was more classically trained flexible voice.Even Kishore da looked up to Rafi Saab who contributed 26,000 songs to Hindi Film Song Industry.Kishore saab had to two photographs of Rafi Saab and Saigal saab in his sitting room…and often in the 1970`s he use to call Rafi himself or suggested to the music director as a better alternative to him sing that particular song..
Sorry guys for my last long post. I will try to keep it short next time.
mr.ashu,,
rafi sahab was versatile genious & kk was not even 10% of rafi sahab,, it was rdb’s gr8 music that brought up kk as a singer…
Ashu,
I am also not a bengali, but I know that there are so many bengali tunes that SD Burman gave to Rafi for their hindi version. Kishore Kumar was an active singer during those times. If the bangla version of the song “Gunguna rahe hain” was recorded after Aradhana, then I apologise for my previous post. If that’s the case then I am sure it was not because KK was a better singer than Rafi, but because Kishore was born and brought up a bengali, and would have understood the nuances of the language far better than Rafi. How many Punjabi songs did Kishore sing? Rafi sang a lot of them. For the same reason Kishore sang so many bangla songs.
What do you mean by multifaceted? If you are referring to KK’s acting abilities, then there is no point in discussing music. Thank God, he mostly stuck to singing. As a singer he was great. No doubt about that. I have the highest regards for his singing. as far as acting is concerned, he was below average. Here I have no qualms about using the word ‘third rate’. Joy Mukherjee, Bishwajeet, Pradeep Kumar and others may not have been great actors, nonetheless were very populr and ofcourse better than kishore. You know why? Because of one and only one Rafi. Kishore Kumar has sung for more third rate actors. He has also sung more trash than any other singer. I have seen some of KK’s movies. To tell you the truth, I could not get past the first ten minutes. But, that does not take away the shine from his singing capabilities.
If your reference was to him being a multifaceted singer, then I disagree totally. It was Rafi alone who could be categorised as a multifaceted singer. Look at his repertoire! Ghazals, Semi-Classical, Classical, Fast songs, sad songs, Quawali’s, Bhajans and Patriotic songs. This is the definition of a multifaceted singer. Rafi did full justice to all these categories. I am sorry to say that Kishore Kumar does not belong to some of them. He has given us some great gems, but when pitted against the variety, quality and quantity that Rafi offered, Kishore comes second best. Now that’s what I call experimentation. Rafi challenged his vocals to sing songs from different genres. He sang Manna Dey type songs better than him. Manna agrees. look at the man’s greatness! He rendered Kishore and Mukesh style songs with ease. Nitin Mukesh said in an interview that Mukesh once told him that among his contemporaries there was nobody like Rafi. He was known to mould his voice as the situation warranted. He was the one for all occassions. He adjusted his voice according to the actor’s on whom a particular song was being picturised.
As far as the title goes——-multifaceted is definitely not a title. Dear Ashu, Rafi sahab received a Silver medal from the then Prime Minister Nehru as early as 1948. That time he was a new comer. In 1965 he was conferred PADAMSHRI by the Govrnment of India. After that he became Padamshri Mohd. Rafi. It’s another story that he deserves much more. This is what a title is! Was Kishore kumar ever conferred any title by the Government? Not that I know of. Again, awards should not be a parameter to measure one’s greatness. I had to mention it because you asked me about it.
I would like to refer to the songs that you mentioned in your last post. kishore and Rafi Have both done a fabulous job. Since I am vouching for Rafi, it’s but natural that I would say that rafi sounds better in all these songs. You, on the other hand are all for Kisore. So for you kishore will sound better. This question should better be left to somebody like Dhani Ram, Sudip or Mr. haldar.
As far as Asha Bhonsle goes. She was a sore loser. She and lata new it that as long as Rafi was around, they would not be able to sustain themselves at the top. They started playing politics with him. They were both decimated by rafi in the duets that he sang with them. Asha is a very selfish singer. It was OP nayyar who made what she is today. When she fell out with him for her second love in RD Burman, she gave all the credit to him. Whatever Asha says about Rafi is all nonsense. She is a horrible person. She even ditched RD in his last days. What a joke! Rafi could not get the nuances of the song “AaJa Aaja”. Asha says so. Listen to the song carefully. Asha sounds vulgar. She overdid it. Rafi was just perfect. What does it matter anyway. This song is identified with Rafi. No matter whoever you bring into picture, Kishore just can not compete with Rafi.
Somebody asked rajesh Roshan about the degrading music quality. You probaly know what he said, but then you don’t want to share the truth. His answer was that since there is no Rafi, it’s very hard to create good music.
Kishore Kumar was Bhappi Lahiri’s mama. Do I need to add more. Although it does not matter as he as I said earlier is amongst the worst of worsts music directors. He is a good human being though. Yes, RD was good and indeed made good use of Kishore kumar.
Rafi not being the voice of Dilip Kumar! Ashu are you out of your mind? It’s like saying that Mukesh never sang for Raj kapoor and for that matter Kisore kumar never did playback for Rajesh Khanna. You should research your thoughts before they take the shape of the words. Recently Dev Anand said in one of his interviews that his best songs came from Rafi, and he indeed is indebted to him. That does not make Kishore Kumar a bad singer. All I wanted to convey through this post was that what others say about one’s abilities does not really matter. if somebody is good majority of the people will like him or her.
In the heat of the moment we are forgetting Mukesh, Manna Dey Mahender Kapoor and other stalwarts. we sould also be grateful to them for what they have given us.
Ashu,
You and I differ on too many points. Some things you claim fact to me see easily disprovable with data e.g. charts. I think it is laughable you fail to mention SJ who easily used Rafi the most, just as RDB did. It wasn’t about preference. SD Burman regarded Rafi the best singer – he stated this in an interview in the 70s (during the peak Kishore wave). He said something to the effect, “Aradhana may have marked by comeback but my pride and joy was Guide. For that movie I had my 2 best singers – Rafi & Lata”. Roshan, Chitragupta, Ravi, SJ, LP, OP Nayyar, Madan Mohan, Naushad, Husnlal Bhaghatram, Usha Khanna, , Shankar Jaikishan – they preferred Kishore Kumar.
Bappi Lahiri – hahaahahaha! what a joke – no one cares about Bappi – he doesn’t stand next composing greats like Madan Mohan and Shankar Jaikishan. You obviously know little about music if you think Rafi only had a few hit songs in the 1980s. Look at the charts from 1977-1980, look at Rafi’s output in that period – more than Kishore’s. It is laughable that you fail to acknowledge Madan Mohan who started things in 1976 with blockbuster Laila Majnu. I doubt you’ve even heard them!
In any case – these arguments are pointless. Let the music decide. When upcoming generations hear Rafi – the music itself will make it clear who was the best of the best. Your revisionist theories will be of no avail. Case in point – you talk about that single Kishore song in Caravan being more popular in 1971 – no one remembers that today yet the three excellent Rafi duets are still popular to this day. Of course you knew that that is why you convenient mentioned “in 1971”. It was the Kishore wave – THANKS to Rafi. Rafi had ruled for 20yrs people needed a break so they tuned to Kishore. 6 yrs later they come back to Mohd Rafi – the best! You CAN’T change the facts – see the charts to see who was number 1!
Are Bewaqoofon…… Listen Rafi Saab’s “Tarif Karoon Kya Uski Jisne Tumhe Banaya” only. He repeated 17 times these words in the song and each and every times his modulations are different……… Haa Modulation Ki Baat Karte Hain Bewaqoof…. wasty……
Vikram…
Do you know Bengali song recorded later to Hindi version? SD did not replace Kishore, but he replace Rafi.
Note: I was not talking abt replacement in my earlier blog, i was talking abt who sounds good. But you forced me to write so. I am not bengali, not even understand bengali but when i heard his version, it sound better than hindi. There was another song sung by Kishore in Bengali, and same song sung by Bappi Lahiri in “Satyamev Jayte”. Bengali was more popular and 100% times better than Bappi, does it mean Bappi replaced Kishore.
Don’t write as per ur convenience.
Dear vikram
You wrote:
There are so many great Kishore songs that you could have referred to. Rafi would have sung these songs in his sleep. In one of the songs Kishore Kumar sounds very unconvincing when he does the female voice over. I have gone through all your posts. At times you sound confused. One moment you say that we should not compare their individual songs, the very next moment you are saying that Rafi would not have been able to sing this or that Kishore Kumar song. In absence of coherence in your thoughts, it becomes difficult to analyse them
My reply:
My dear friend, I am not confused. I am answering ur doubt. I never compare singers because i believe everyone has their own charm. I would not like to listen if any singer sing KISHORE’s song. Not only his songs but also his each and every harkat i know which noone can match. Same i can say in favor of Rafi. So i am very much sure what i am writing.
What rafi would have done in his sleep, only he would have known. Even you can sing better than Rafi, you can act better than Amitabh in your sleep. Noone can stop you:)
Again.. You can’t compare singers based on their indivisual songs. If you really want to compare singer than take one or two songs which sung by both.
For e.g.
– TUM bin Jaaooo kaha
– HUM Premi prem karna jaane
– HUMKO tumse ho gaya hai pyar
– KYA mousam hai
(This is the song where i switched my fav. from Rafi to Kishore when i was 10 yrs. old. I must say Rafi is still my second fav.)
Kishore had guts to experiment, rafi was always stick to himself. That’s why people said Kishore was “a man of many parts” or “multifaceted. I don’t remember any title for RAFI. Let me know if you know anything.
Dear Anonymous,
I differ from you view.
I belive “Che khush Nazare” is not executed properly. His voice is very very thin when he sang “antara”, you have rights to differ.
I appreciate that you have little knowledge abt 70s era. It is history that Rafi did not regain his postion after 70’s. Nobody can change it
Here is my reply for rafi’s popularity after 76…
There is no doubt that Rafi bounced back well in 76, credit goes to RDB and LP. He bounce back, but did not regain his position.
People started talking abt rafi after 76-77, because he got national award for HKSKN and nominated for Amar Akbar Anthony. He was holding top position till late 60s, and suddenly he lost his position in 70s and again he come back in 76 with 2 great songs followed many due to which people started talking abt him again.
Can you forget songs from “Teen Deviyan”,”Door Gagan ki Chhaoon me”, “Paying Guest”, “Jewel Thief” and many more. These songs were equally hit and greately sung by Kishore during 60s. Since Rafi was on top that time people don’t talk abt that song. Since Rafi was on his lower and he bounced back in 76, so people started consoling themselve by saying Rafi regain #1 position which is completely false.
Dear friend, Rafi was alive till 80s and i know how many filmfare award he got. FYI He was nominated for “Parda Hai Parda”. He did not get award, even kishore got nomination for “AMAR PREM” but he did not get.
I always get annoyed when people like you write some nonsense thing abt RDB. Kishore was RDB’s personal fav as Rafi was personal fav. for Naushad. RDb used Rafi intelligently, and he kept giving him work though Rafi lost his market value.
– RDB asked Rafi to sing “Yadoon Ki Baarat”
*** don’t say Nasir asked RDB to use Rafi.
– RDb used Rafi for rajesh Khanna “Kahe ko bulaya mujhe baar baar”
***don’t say this is most complex song and only Rafi could have sung
– RDB used Rafi for “Maine puchha chaand se”
***don’t say this is most complex song and only Rafi could have sung
Do you know…Kishore sang only one song in “CARAVAN” whereas Rafi sang all songs. In 71, Kishore song in “CARAVAN” was most popular than other songs in the film.
Its amazing for me, rafi fans regulary visit kk site & give their comments & opinion, because they rafi fans but also like kk, they just give their opinion in mannerful langauage.
I am rafian, its very rare to see comment of any kk fan on rafi website. most of worst article & meaningless
In my opinion around 90% rafian visit kk & other singers website but, kk fans behave like frog in well.
Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi ”Are namhi kitna suhana hai fir kis batki bhes chodo yar chalo koi gan
sunte hai” Tere mere sapne ab eak rang hai jahan bhi le jae rahe hum sang hai”
”Koi kuchbhi khe Rafi to Rafi hai ” ” Na fankar tujhsa tere bad aaya mohd.
Rafi tu bahot yad aaya”
Kishor eak ache singer the par Rafi sahb ke sath unki tulna it is rong
RAFI IS KING OF SINGIRS ” Use nagmoki ja ahle nazar yu hi nahi khte ”
kishor kumar is very best singar but not as commpiur to Rafi sahab
RAFI IS GRATE SIGER HI IS KING OF SINGERS I LOVE RAFI
Ashu,
Why did S D Burman replace Kishore with Rafi for the hindi version of the song “Gunguna Rahe hain”, even though he stuck with Asha as the female voice? The question that you raised is an answer in itself. You have inadvertently proven that there is no way Kishore Kumar would have sounded better than Rafi in this song. S D Burman was a master at choosing his singers. He knew their strengths and weaknesses. He used Kishore Kumar very well in some of his compositions. But, the music that he created with Rafi was divine. That’s what he is mostly remembered for. He was way ahead of his son in musical sense. He considered Rafi to be his first serve. Dada Burman told Kishore Kumar during the recording of the songs for the movie “The Guide” that he loved him (KK) a lot but he (KK) could not sing better than Rafi.
As far as Kalyanji-Anandji combine is concerened, I think they never had a preference for any singer. Mukesh, it would seem was vastly used by them to great effect. Kishore Kumar did sing some chartbusters for them. They made it big with “Jab Jab Phool Khile”. Until this film happened , they were widely popular, but not in the same league as Shankar-Jaikishen, SD Burman or OP Nayyar. It was Rafi who did the honours here. Anandji was of the opinion that Rafi indeed was the most versatile and technically perfect singer.
I was surprised by your choice of songs that you mentioned for comparision with Rafi. There are so many great Kishore songs that you could have referred to. Rafi would have sung these songs in his sleep. In one of the songs Kishore Kumar sounds very unconvincing when he does the female voice over. I have gone through all your posts. At times you sound confused. One moment you say that we should not compare their individual songs, the very next moment you are saying that Rafi would not have been able to sing this or that Kishore Kumar song. In absence of coherence in your thoughts, it becomes difficult to analyse them.
Vikram,
Thwarted view. I am really disappointed abt reading ur article.
Kishore was never exclusive for particular actor 🙂 He was voice of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh in particular. There is no doubt that Rafi also sang for these actors, because they both belongs to same era. My dear friend, even Sonu Nigam and Udit narayan sang for Amitabh, and u will surpeise to know it is not one song but more than one. Do you know why, because they are running(current) singers and the same happened during that time.
Md. Rafi was only voice for Shammi, Johny walker and other 3rd class actors like Joy Mukhrajee, Pradeep Kumar, BHarat Bhushan. He was never voice of Dilip Kumar. Talat Mehmood was first voice for Dilip Kumar. During 60s, Rafi was on top and so he become voice for all leading actors. Same like kishore for 70’s and 80’s actors. For e.g. Sanjay Dutt, Anil Kapoor, Govinda, Mithun, Vikram and many…
You asked me how many MDs prefer Kishore. There are many names like
– RDB
– KA
– Bappi Lahiri
– Rajesh Roshan
Above names which i mentioned were 100% fond (they are biased) of Kishore. In case of Rafi, i could remember only 3 name who are 100% fond of Rafi…They are..
– Nausad
– O P Nayyar
– Madan Mohan
If you read carefully i mention 100% (they are biased toward 1 singers). In above list, I did not mention SJ, SDB,LP, KHYAAM, becaue they might have personal fav, but they are not biased in offering songs to particular singer.
I am really pitty on ur knowledge that Rafi promoted RDB in Teesari Manzil. Its really funny.
Rafi was selected as singer because he was voice of Shammi, and my dear friend if you have seen/heard Nazir Hussain interview where he mentioned about the bet he had with RDB. RDB said ASHA will sung better than Rafi and Nazir differ that, and at the end Nazir lost the bet by paying 100 rs. to RBD, because ASHA totally eclipsed Rafi. Song was “AAJA AAJA main hu Pyaar Tera”.
Note: This has been told by Asha herself and Nazir hussain.
It doesn’t mean Rafi was lesser than ASHA, but i must say this song was not his cup of tea.
About National award. Rafi fan should be greatful to RDB becuase Rafi got national award for HUM KISI SE KAM NAHI…
Finally Let me correct you. “Parda hai Parda” composed by LP not RDB.
Vikram, I have one question for you.
Why not RDB asked RAFI to sing following songs..These are not simplest songs
– O Maanjhi RE, Apna Kinara Nadiya ki dhaara hai (Kishore)
– EK Chatur naar (Manna Dey version)
– Chingari koi bhadke (Kishore)
– Duniya mein ha ah ah Logon ko (RDB version)
and Many more
Ashu, I can not imagine even in my wildest dreams any singer other than Rafi doing justice to a song like “Man Re Tu Kahe na Dheer Dhare”. It’s another point that Kishore Kumar should be commended for his tribute to Rafi Sahab. By the way this song was declared as the song of the millennium, not by Rafi fans, but by a jury that included lots and lots of diehard Kishore fans.
Ashu,
You forgot to mention “Parda Hai parda” and “Maine Poocchha Chaand Se”. I was talking about songs like this. They were not Kishore’s cup of tea. No doubt about that. You mentioned Rajender Kumar. How many times did MD’s use KK for him? You can count it on your finger tips. In fact, Rafi was used regularly for Rajesh Khanna. I can easily list twenty songs of Rafi picturised on Rajesh Khanna. He was used on Amitabh even more. Kishore Kumar was never exclusive to a particular actor. Look at Rafi! He was exclusive to Rajinder Kumar, Dilip Kumar, Biswajeet, Raaj Kumar, Shammi Kapoor and Joy Mukherjee, Bharat Bhusan and Pradeep Kumar.
For your information, if you are leaving in some other world-Rafi did playback for Kishore Kumar- not once, not twice, not thrice but eleven times. Eleven times! Can you imagine Udit Narayan singing for Sonu Nigam? Now this is called versatility. Like it or not, Rafi was simply matchless. You know it in your heart of hearts Ashu that there are more Kishore Kumar songs that are picturesed on third rate actors. Let me tell you that it does not make any difference. A good song is a good song. Looks like your overzealousness against Rafi will take you to any level.
You also mentioned about MD’s fondness for singers. How many MD’s preferred KK? Not many. Rafi has sung for the most number of MD’s. All the greats like Shankar-Jaikishan, Roshan, Laxmikant-Pyarelal, Naushad, S D Burman, Madan Mohan, O P Nayyar always preferred Rafi. It was not because they liked him, but because he could sing just about anything. On the other hand Kishore was the first choice of RD Burman and Bhappi Lahiri. RD was good, but not great. Most of his hit tunes were lifted from other sources. And Bhappi Lahiri. Less said the better. He is among the worst music directors that we have had, if not the worst. Kishore was definitely a great singer, but not the best.
RD Burman was part of a cabal that was planning Rafi’s ouster from the industry. You know the other members of this cabal. He was a thankless guy. It was Rafi who brought him into big league with films like Teesri Manzil and Baharoan Ke Sapane. He went back to Rafi when his magic started to wane away in the late 70’s. In fact, his fans should be grateful to Rafi that he brought him a national award. Ashu do you know if Kishore-RD combine ever win a national award?
Dear Sudip,
Reply to ur few previous blog:
First of all Manna Dey never comment on who is great, Kishore or Rafi. I have seen/read almost all his interview and i also published Manna Dey interview where he spoke abt Kishore and Rafi in Rafi’s website. He might have his spersonal favorite but he intelligently maintained balance between both.
There is one song in Aradhana..
“Gun Gun raha hai bhanware khil rahi hai kali kali”, sung by Rafi and Asha. Same song sung by Kishore and Asha in Aradhana Bengali version.Not only me but also there are genuine Rafi fans who accepted that Kishore’s version is much bettern than Rafi.
Note: I would like to clear one thing here, i am not here to prove who is great here but i must say i am more inclined toward KISHORE.
Pls. listen this song as good listner not as Kishore or Rafi fan and send ur comment.
Is there any match for following song? Do you expect Rafi giving justice to these songs?
1. Pyaar hame kis mod pe le aaya
(Listen this song again an dlisten Kishore carefully)
2. Aake sidhi lagi jaise dil pe kataria
3. Tu aauro ki kyon ho gayi
My dear friend, you cann’t take their indivisual songs for comparison. They all are unique and beyond comparison.
I have a recording of Kishore’s concert where he remembered Rafi on his demise, This concert was held in Khandawa and he started the show with “Man re tu kaahe na dheer dhare”, one of the fabulous song sung by Rafi.
Kishore had done great justic to this song without any music instrument. Pls. listen this song as music listener, not as Rafi fan 🙂
sorry – i got interrupted in the last post: only rafi could have sung that AND done FULL justice to the song. else you’d need bhupinder for the alaap and then kishore – which wouldn’t sound as good imo.
Ashuji:
Pyare phrased his response “rafi is just ahead of kishore” because if he just said rafi, he would be failing to acknowledge kk’s tremendous contributions to lp. he also knew it was a hot topic and if he didn’t respond evenly and just overlook kk – it would upset a lot of people (including me, a rafian). In terms of favorite singer – just as there is no question kishore was rdb’s favorite – rafi was lp’s favorite.
Second point with regards to rafi’s comeback. RDB used rafi in HKKN because producer Nasir Hussain made sure Rafi got songs in his movie. If RDB used Rafi for Nasir Hussain movies or movies in 60s – it is because indeed, he was forced to. If RDB used Rafi for Aandhi – it was to promote KK over Rafi by giving KK the best compositions and giving Rafi an average tune “Salam Kijiye”. The latter isn’t a song worth much talk (except for RDB’s motives) but I gather you haven’t heard it in a long time. RDB makes Rafi go to a very high pitch in that song (not really necessarily, almost to make fun of Rafi’s ability or to falsely show that they aren’t needed) when he sings “Hisaab Kijye” and no one but rafi could have gone to that scale and came down so quickly. Pyar Ka Mausam is another example. RDB gives Rafi an awful “tune” “Che Kush Nazare” and then has the “Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan fiasco”. That song was Bengali hit in Kishore’s voice years before so RDB knew he was on safe ground. He composes it to make Kishore look his best (yodeling) and takes out yodeling in Rafi’s “plain mandolin” composition (not that I care for a contest of yodeling as it is silly when we’re talking about singing) and the composition doesn’t require rafi sahab’s full abilities like “tere mere sapne” would. Very clever by rdb and people fall for it. Even then, a lot of people like the rafi version better but that movie was another attempt by rdb to make kk look better than rafi. Not to mention – rdb conveniently makes sure the clearly superior sad version by rafi is not in the lp.
i’ll bet Rafi would have won FilmFare / National Award in 1977 for another song how about “pardah hai pardah” which was uber popular – even if RDB didn’t give him “Kya Hua Tera Wada”. It is rdb who wouldn’t have gotten the filmfare so rdb should be grateful to rafi. 1977 was the Rafi wave – he had the #2 & #3 top songs (among others). #1 being Lata’s song from Laila Majnu. Rafi’s comeback is responsible by (1) Madan Mohan. It was Laila Majnu in 1976 that had Rafi dominating charts – it was a HUGE musical blockbuster. It set everything else in motion (sort of like Aradhana in 1969). Nasir hussain, manmohan desai, lp, madan mohan –these guys deserve the credit. Rdb was lucky to win the award. The public got tired of hearing rafi for 20yrs in 1969 – they got tired of kishore wave and wanted rafi back by then. Btw – kya hua tera wada was an easy song to sing but only rafi could have expressed emotions in that song the way he did – which made it special.
So if rdb wasn’t using rafi (1) because he was forced (2) to make rafi look average with average / outdated tunes, it was the occasional whim where yes he wanted rafi but this is infrequent. Of course, rdb always knew of rafi’s greatness – but he was on the campaign to promote his friend kk over rafi at any cost.
I read all above comments. Few people got great sense of music and admiration toward great singers like Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh, but i dissappointed with few people’s comments.
Here i would like to reply Vikram for his blog…
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Vikram wrote:
Laxmikant-Pyarelal have always been of the opinion that when it comes to singing there is nobody bigger than Rafi. At the same time they never despised Kishore kumar. In fact, they used him for some of their great compositions. That’s what Rafi fans are like.
My reply:
LP were great fond of Rafi and Lata because Rafi and Lata sang for LP in their low time and they supported them at great extent during 60’s. And Pyare always shown his fondness for Kishore in his interview. He has great respect for Kishore. In one of his interview, one guy asked him who is his best singer, in replied he said “Rafi just ahead of KISHORE…”. My friend he could have easily mentioned Rafi and moved to the next question, but he didnot do that. Because he has immense respect for both.
Vikram wrote:
Now compare this with R D Burman. He only used Rafi when he had no other option
My reply:
Great line to laugh 🙂 According to you RD used RAFI when there is no other option, If it is true then listed songs below are most difficult songs composed by RD 🙂
1. Kya hua Tera wada
2. Bottle se ek baat chali hai
3. one song from Aandhi and many more…
My dear friend Vikram, ask anyone who has little knowledge abt music abt above 3 songs. All songs are simplest songs, anybody can sing.
Here is my analysis on above songs
1. Hum kissi se kam nahi was multi starrer movie and Rafi voice was best suited to Taariq (Rafi got national award…Rafi again bounced back in industry. Rafi fan should be thanksful to RD)
2. Song from Ghar. Picturised on Extras
3. Song from Aandhi. Picturised on Extras
All songs are simplest. Please don’t write things as per your convenience.
I would like to mention one thing here.
Kishore sang for Rajendra Kumar “Tumko bhi to aisa hi kuchh hota hoga” along with LATA under LP, though all songs were sung by RAFI. Does it mean Rafi was not able to sing this song?
No my dear friend, It is all upto MD’s fondness and confidence abt their singers.
RD,KA clearly said in all his interview that there is no match for Kishore. LP maintained balance between Kishore and Rafi.
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Kishore and Rafi, both were legend and there is no match for them
Isn’t it amazing and greatest gift to India that we witnessed greatest singers of all times in almost same era??? Then why we are debating??
It’s like this : “Is Brahma bigger than Vishnu?” or “Is Shankar Bigger than Krishna and Indra?”
See what god has betowed our great country with in same era:
1) Rafi
2) Kishore
3) Mukesh
4) Manna De
5) Heman Kumar
6) Talat Mehmud
7) Lata Did
8) Geeta Dutt
9) Asha Bhonsale
10) Suman Kalyanpur
11) Shamshad Begam
All these giants make music complete!! God gifted them with his love!!! Why we try to judge “whom God loved more?”!!
This is an endless debate. Those who love Rafi will always want to rate Rafi ahead of Kishore and Kishore Da’s lovers will never want to rate any other singer above them..
The reality is “Both were great friends”! They used to love each other’s voice and style. I remember that Kishore Da always used to start his stage programs and concerts with Rafi’s song and Amit Kumar too is following that tradition even today. Such is the respect for Rafi and love in Kishore Da’s family! Same was there in Rafi’s family too for Kishore da!!
You can list 100s of songs of each of these singers including Amit Kumar and can debate to eternity who is better!!!
O.P. Nayyar once said about Amit Kumar that his voice has more ‘gamak’ (word used for subtance with great modulation) than even Kishore Da!!
Today since both Kishore and Rafi are not with us, so let’s give them their due respect and space! Let’s not compare apple and orange!! Indian film music will never be complete without naming any of these!!
I love both Kishore and Rafi very very much and AMit Kumar too!!! Amit Kumar was little under used singer in 80s and 90s. but he is singing more now at age of 55!!!! Le’ts wish him well!!
K.C.De was Manna De’s uncle.Manna had come to Bombay on K.C.’s call.As a music director,KC did his utmost to promote Manna.But he gave one song to Rafi to sing.Manna was annoyed and upset with his uncle for preferring Rafi.But Manna later gracefully admitted that the song with classical base was sung much better by Rafi than he himself could have done.That was Rafi’s greatness as a singer.
Sudip,I salute you for your knowledge of music.
I appreciate what Anmolaryan Dogra has written.Let us focus on the song and not the singer.A bad song sung by Rafi is a bad song just as a bad song sung by Kishore is a bad song.If we include all the singers in our debate we shall make it more comprehensive and rich.Men like Sudip and Vikram have amazing knowledge of music.We would like to hear from them about merits of different singers and their best renditions.Now though I believe that Rafi was the most versatile singer(incidently Naushad Sahib also said this and who could be a greater judge of the quality of a musical voice than Naushad) yet there are scores and scores of songs of Mukesh which are surpaasingly beautiful.Only Mukesh could have sung Saranga teri yaad mein,a difficult song sung to perfection.Rafi also sang the mukhra of this song but failed completely.The bass of Nain dwar se man mein voh aa ke tan mein aag lagaye was beyond the vocal capacities of any other singer.Is there anything as lovely as Mujhe tum se kucch bhi na chahiye mujhe mere haal pe chhod do in the repertoire of any other singer?Mahendra Kapoor and Kishore were full-throated singers.Rafi could sing at any pitch at will.He is full throated in O door ke musafir hum ko bhi saath le le hum reh gaye akele just as Mukesh is in Aa ab laut chalein in Jis Desh mein Ganga Behti hai.I heard today on world space radio a rarely heard Rafi-Suraiya duet Bekraar hai koi aa mere dildaar aa.Has anybody heard this one?About Manna De I would say that he lacked something that kept him back.Unlike Rafi,Mukesh and Kishore he couldn’t carry an entire film on his shoulders.Raj Kapoor tried him in Chori Chori in the absence of Mukesh who was busy producing his own film (in which enterprise the latter failed) but he found De’s voice to be too dry.
Meanwhile,there is a heartening news for all lovers of music that there is a proposal to consider Rafi for the award of Bharat Ratna.The Indian Express has mentioned it in an editorial.Let us hope that the greatest Indian singer of all times gets his due,though belatedly.
Sudip, I have gone through this whole chain today and I am impressed by your knowledge about music. Great analysis.. keep it up…
BTW, here are some songs where Rafi excelled as singer.
1> Chal ud ja re panchhi
2> Jawaniyan yeh mast mast
3> Aapke hassen rukh
4> Zindabad
5> Yeh jo chilman hai (This one is on Rajesh Khanna – supoosed to be uusing KK all the time)
6> Kar chale hum fida
7> Duniya na bhaye mohe
8> Hui Sham unka khyaal (That stupid kumar “naku” sanu tried this one in one of the concerts in his nasal style and failed miserably)
I can go on …. there are so many.. I thank Rafi for what he has given to me.
Listen to rafi song ” Hai duniya ooski zamana oosika” ..Rafi just can;t go wrong…
Ashwin, I agree with you that ultimately it boils down to individual tastes. My only grudge against some of Kishore fans was their foul language directed at Mohd. rafi. Some of them had also mentioned religion. This is despicable. I would request all to keep this discussion to the level of humanity.
Oh, Thanks Sudip and Vikaram for coming to the positive roles.
Now you both are heroes.
Yes, I do agree with both of you. Each of our great singers have some unique qualities of their own, which have created great effects on our Bollywood’s success, which have now big name in the world.
I am the man who respects even a smallest artist.
Rafi Saheb, Mukeshji and Kishoreda are immortal for ever in our lives.
Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji were great sigers also.
However, I mostly listen the songs of Kishoreda daily in the car that keeps me going on a daily basis. In fact, I drive car better when the Kishoreda’s song is being played.
Like:
(1) Rook Jana Nahin Tu kahi Haar ke
(2) Jeevan mein tu darna nahin
(3) Phoolon Ke Dhere Hai
(4) Jab bhi koi kangana bole
(5) Har koi chahata hai ek Mutthi
(6) Nadiya se Dariya
(7) Diye Jalte Hai
(8) Aane wala pal Jaane wala hai
(9) Jo Tum Hansonge to Duniya Hasange
(10) Jaa Mujhe na aab yaad aa
(11) Sama hai suhana suhana
(12) Pyar ko chahiye kya ek nazar ek nazar
These are just few as an example. I will be listening the songs of Kishoreda until the last day of my life. But, Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji will be in my heart also. At least good, Lataji and Ashaji are still with us.
You know, many times we do get bored in life for no reason, but, when Kishoreda is with me, I never get bored even for a moment, that is the type of good effect he has created on me.
I appreciate your nice comments.
I have lately read the entire debate on this site. More than 500 posts have failed to clinch the issue either way. Rafi fans have remained Rafi fans and Kishore fans have remained Kishore fans. Neither side has succeeded in converting anybody from the other side. Still it has not been a futile debate. Leaving aside some catankerous posts, the debate has been conducted in an able, intelligent and skillful manner. It has highlighted many of the finer aspects of Hindi film music and is a learning exprience for music lovers. I agree with Dhani Ram Ji that the debate should go on. But I would suggest that it should not be limited to just 2 singers. It should be more inclusive as some other stars like Mukesh, Talat, Hemant Kumar, Mahender Kapoor, Manna Dey etc. also shown on the musical fermament. Alongwith Rafi & Kishore, Mukesh diserves equal honours. Starting way back in the late 1940s, he gloriously all kinds of vicissitudes to sing his great swan song “Kabhi Khabhi mere dil mein khyal aata hai”.
Besides, most importantly, why should we discuss the singer and not the song. If I can enjoy Rafi’s “Choudwin ka chand ho”, why can’t I enjoy Kishore’s “Zindgi ek safar hai suhana” as well as Mukesh’s ” Suhana Safar aur ye mausam hasin”? They are all wonderful songs and deserve our hearing. Why should we deprive ourselves of the bliss of listening to a song because it has been sung by A and not B? Could just one singer have sung all the songs in all the films produced during the last 60 years? We should be grateful that we had a galaxy of good singers who have provided us rich variety to suit our different moods and tastes. Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore have all gone. They are no longer alive. Our venom against any of them makes no difference to them now. If we denigrate any of these colossuses of film music, we show only our own ingratitude, meanness and poverty of tastes and imagination. Let us celebrate all the great singers and their great songs and not throw mud at them.
Ashwin, Please do not mention Bhappi Lahri to verify something. What does he know about music? He probably is the worst ever music director. Laxmikant-Pyarelal have always been of the opinion that when it comes to singing there is nobody bigger than Rafi. At the same time they never despised Kishore kumar. In fact, they used him for some of their great compositions. That’s what Rafi fans are like. Now compare this with R D Burman. He only used Rafi when he had no other option. He made Kishore sing songs that should have been given to Rafi. It was Rafi who brought RD into the big league with Teesri Manzil and Chhote Nawab. This is another example of an over zealous kishore fan. Later on although he went back to Rafi as he thought Kishore will not be able to do justice to his difficult to grasp compositions. I will not dispute the fact that RD composed some great scores for Kishore Kumar. We respect the best, but at the same time we don’t hate the second best. This is where we differ from Kishore fans. In a bid to prove their point they can go to any point to malign Rafi. Please show some respect to the singer whom majority of the people think to be the best ever.
I like Kishore Kumar a lot. Some of his songs are a real joy. They are as good as Rafi’s best songs, if not better. But, that’s about it. Rafi’s voice modulations and variations were simply divine. Rafi’s repertoire is just unbelievable. In terms of variety and quality that he provided over a span of thirty years is far beyond the reach of Kishore Kumar, or for that matter any other singer. Manna Dey, Mukesh and Mahender Kapoor also had their time in the sun. Their best work is also as good as the best of Kishore’s or Rafi’s. We should appreciate their contribution to our film industry without holding anything against them. When you have so many stalwarts in one field, someone is bound to be better than the rest.
Ashwin:
As far as music is concerned MODULATION has only one meaning (unless Bappi’da questions etymology. he is surely fatter than the dictionary).. And you are correct: “In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality.” You missed one small part. Let me fill that part in parentheses :
In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality (within the same antara of a song). And Kishore has hardly sung any song with lots of back-to-back ups and downs within an antara..And for your information Bappi’da has hardly composed any..
Manna De (who understands music a little more than your Bappi’da), once said “Kishore khub-i baro gayak. Kintu o kothin gaan gailo kobey?” (Translated from Bengali: Kishore is a very good singer. But when did he ever sing difficult songs? ).
You know what, when you talk about the TIMES and Bappi’da, I see no point arguing because you have different sensibilities and tastes than mine. Just as it is pointless to talk about Satyajit Ray, Fellini, de Sica and Kurosawa to someone who follows Manmohan Desai..
Rafi’s beauty was that he unified the diverse worlds of Kishore and Talat or of Mehdi Hasaan and Udit Narayan. Kishore created a rift in that world-either follow this way or that way..His gayaki was made for the TIMES it did not transcend diverse eras.
And mind you, the trend you are talking of was not Kishore’s creation..It was that the West started transferring garbage to Bollywood via Pancham and Bappi’da and Kishore’s voice suited those. Another coincidence was the emergence of deep voiced heroes like Amitabh. I am sure Kishore left a lot of influence behind-little wonder we heard “Main to bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy” after his death (Now don’t tell me that’s in keeping with the TIMES and sound marvelous).
Rafi, to be fair, sang a lot of garbage too (in fact, possibly more than Kishore). But he was ALSO singing Thumris, Gazals, Qawaalis, light classical and heavy songs alongside.
This is to Sudip:
MODULATION applies to any sound generated in space, it doesn’t matter, whether it is from a musical instrument or from a person singing.
You can make many definition of MODULATION depending upon our context. In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality.
As Bhappida were saying in one of the “K for Kishore” show, that Kishoreda were keeping the voice in same quality whether it is in a low notes or high notes.
Also, as Amitji were saying to one of the singer in “K for Kishore” show that
your MODULATION was good.
So, don’t try to teach anything to anybody, just write comments that applies to the show. I know both English and Science very well.
Rafi lacks modulation ? You guys lack common sense
Ashwin:
“Kishoreda has more modulation in his voice than Rafi Saheb”
-WHAT??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Surely your definition of modulation is different from what musicians understand as modulation. According to dictionary mudulation is ” Music. transition from one key to another.”
Asha Bhosle to A R Rahman talked of Rafi’s ability to switch keys easily and instantly. Forget Kishore..Mehdi Hasan to Manna De did not have this ability..
I am naming 3 songs of Rafi..
“Jawaaniyan yeh mast”
“Pukarta Chala hoon main”
“Tasveer tere dil mein”
Name ONE song of Kishore that has the same level of modulation. If you need help you can use a Frequency analyzer to help you.. I can give you some hint-the closest that comes to those songs is “Khilte hai gul yahan”.
Ashwin wrote:
“We are talking here about the TIMES. Kishoreda wasn’t there when Rafi saheb were singing for our actors. When Kishoreda came, singing his style, Rafi Saheb were tarnished a little”
-That’s natural. I was not born in the 60’s. But if I were I would be tired of Rafi’s voice as well. No one likes to hear the same voice, movie after movie, year after year.
-Similarly public got tired of Kishore wanted fresh voices in the mid 80s. That’s why we saw Amit, SPB and even 3rd grade singers like Aziz and Shabbir Kumar.
-Sanu had monopoly between 1990-96..People got tired of Sanu in 1996 and that’s why Udit appeared from reappeared after his QSQT days.
-Udit enjoyed monopoly between 96 and 2001. Public replaced him with Sonu Nigam.
-Sonu had a short life at the peak. Now we have Ganjawala, Kailash Kher, etc.
FYI…Kishore was surely there when Rafi was singing but no one other than SDB appreciated his talent. Salil Chowdhury even had Hemant Kumar sing for KK in Naukri because he thought he was not good enough. Lot of MDs though Kishore was offbeat in the 50s and hence he was thrown into the sidelines.
I can never visualize Kishore Kumar singing Talat’s “Tasveer banata hoon” in Baradari. He simply does not have that mellow…Talat created a magic of a different kind that Kishore fans do not care about…They are only obsessed with one dimension of the voice- the open-throated one where the “atomsphere inside the theater becomes just superb….”.. I can easily visualize Rafi singing that song.. Though I think Talat reached a different level in that song..
I agree with Ashwin. Kishore Kumar masterfully blended his modulated voice to suit Dilip Kumar in “Salaa Main To Sahab Bangaya”. I thought it was Dilip Kumar singing. I was surprised to hear that SD Burman was the MD of that song.
Sudip and Vikram,
We are talking here about the TIMES. Kishoreda wasn’t there when Rafi saheb were singing for our actors. When Kishoreda came, singing his style, Rafi Saheb were tarnished a little. However, Kishoreda has more modulation in his voice than Rafi Saheb. When Kishoreda’s voice is present in the theater, the atomsphere inside the theater becomes just superb, splendid, terrific, fabulous, fantastic, marvelous and wonderful.
After reading your comments, I would like to say:
Yeah sirf yehi baat hai, Pasand Apni Apni, Khayal Apna Apna.
Aswin,
Can you dispute the fact that Everest is the highest mountain in the world?There definitely is some confusion about the second higest. Rafi is the Everest of singing. Mukesh, manna Dey and Kishore are the competitors for the second place. I will give the benefit of doubt to Kishore Kumar, for the fact that his voice had more variations compared to the other two. You just can not compare Rafi with anybody. In cricketing terms Sachin Tendulkar is great. But is he as great as Don Bradman? Definitely not. Rafi was divine. He could mould his voice at will to suite any actor. It’s a fact. Like it or not. He was declared the most popular singer of the millenium in a poll conducted by a leading magazine.
Somebody had mentioned in one of the posts that Kishore was the voice of the young actors. Sheer nonsense! Where in the hell that came from? Rafi was the voice of young Dilip Kumar. He was the voice of young Dev Anand. He sang some of the best songs for Dev. Dev Anand owes a lot to rafi Sahab for what he is today. Shashi Kapoor, Dharmenda, Jeetendra, Bishwajeet, Rajender Kumar, Joy Mukherjee were the young faces of the 60’s. It was Rafi who did the vocals for them. Kishore Kumar became the voice of Dev Anand when he grew older and started producing those horrible movies. Brring a few, the music of most of them was horrendous. Dharmendra, Shashi Kapoor and Jeetendra were not growing any younger when music directors started using Kishore Kumar for them during the 70’s.
In the late 70’s Rafi became the voice of the youthful Rishi Kapoor, truly the only musically successful actor of those times. He also sang for Vinod Khanna who was the young fresh face in the 70’s. He did playback for some other not very well known young actors like Vijay Arora and Anil Dhawan. Rafi sang for more actors than anybody else. He provided vocals to playback for a young Kishore Kumar. He did that eleven times. Now that’s what I call greatness and versatility. His voice was used on Amitabh a lot of times and also occasionally on Rajesh Khanna.
The dialogue from the movie “Waqt” that ” those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others”, is appropriate for these kind of people who want to malign Rafi at any cost. No matter how much these guys try, they will never succeed in their sinister designs.
Making corrections and adding since this site does not have “Preview” feature
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“If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!”
–I do believe in you.. I can also add Dev Anand and others to your list who loved Kishore’s voice. Similarly there are tons such as Dilip Kumar, Shammi, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee who thought Rafi was their voice.. that includes B grade film personalities like Johnie Walker.. Who remembers the two unknown faces in Dosti or the lean hero in Dulari.. All that they remember is Rafi’s songs. The song “Suhani Raat Dhal chuki” was recorded in 1949. It has survived 60 years while the movie or the hero has sunk into oblivion.
But all these are anecdotal observations..None of these conclusively proves one is better than the other. The only proof is what we “feel” and at times backed by what experts say.. And let me tell you musical “experts” do not include King Khan (whose knowledge of music may be a tad better than my 9 year old son’s). That way Punjabi kudiya Priyanka Chopra’s favorite singer is Rafi (does it count at all?)
To me Kishore was a great entertainer. He brought a freshness to the industry like no one before. No one before sang with a full-throated voice (something which my knowledgeable co-poster P Halder commented on). The golden voice with the energetic rendition made old styles redundant and outdated. So Talat, Saigal, Hemant disappeared from the scene in the new era heralded by the great Kishore Kumar. This is also the reason why Kishore’s fans hardly listen to Talat, Mahendra K, Subir Sen, Pankaj Mullick..To them the GOD’s style was all that mattered. In other words, Kishore’s voice and style was unique-that makes him great.
Rafi, on the other hand was unique in that he was not unique.. Sounds paradoxical? Let me explain. He did not make Talat or Hemant’s style redundant. He was Talat, Saigal, Hemant, Kishore and Mukesh combined into one…He could be Talat if need be, and be Kishore if need be..In “Jaane Kya dhoondti” Rafi was Talat personified, in “Khilona Jankar” he was Mukesh, in “Barbad-e-mohabbat” he was Bhupinder, in “Gar tum bhoola na donge” he was Kishore, in “Kain ek masoom nazuk si ladki” he was Hariharan, in “janewalo ka gham” he was Pankaj Udhas. No one in history had this range, which is also “God gifted” (Since you believe in God which I don’t).
Kishore had a single, unique style which was great..But when it comes to choosing the best singer it has to be Rafi. Even your “superstars of today and yesteryears” voted for Rafi when it came to choosing one. If you do not believe in that look at the various polls such as the Outlook magazine poll and go through the participants list.
“If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!”
–I do believe in you.. I can also add Dev Anand and others to your list who loved Kishore’s voice. Similarly there are tons such as Dilip Kumar, Shammi, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee who thought Rafi was their voice.. that includes B grade film personalities like Johnie Walker.. Who remembers the two unknown faces in Dosti or the lean hero in Dulari.. All that they remember is Rafi’s songs. The song “Suhani Raat Dhal chuki” was recorded in 1949. It has survived 60 years while the movie or the hero has sunk into oblivion.
But all these are anecdotal observations..None of these conclusively proves one is better than the other. The only proof is what we think and at times what experts say.. And let me tell you musical “experts” do not include King Khan (whose knowledge of music may be a tad better than my 9 year old son’s).
To me Kishore was a great entertainer. He brought a freshness to the industry like no one before. No one before sang with a full-throated voice (something which my knowledgeable co-poster P Halder commented on). The golden voice with the energetic rendition made old styles redundant. So Talat, Saigal, Hemant disappeared from the scene in the new era heralded by the great Kishore Kumar. In other words, Kishore’s voice and style was unique-that makes him great.
Rafi, on the other hand was unique in that he was not unique.. Sounds paradoxical? Let me explain. He did not make Talat or Hemant redundant. He was Talat, Saigal, Hemant, Kishore and Mukesh combined into one…He could be Talat if need be, and be Kishore if need be..In “Jaane Kya dhoondti” Rafi was Talat personified, in “Khilona Jankar” he was Mukesh, in “Barbad-e-mohabbat” he was Bhupinder, in “Gar tum bhoola na donge” he was Kishore, in “Kain ek masoom nazuk si ladki” he was Hariharan. No one in history had this range, which is also “God gifted” (Since you believe in God which I don’t).
Kishore had a single, unique style which was great..But when it comes to choosing the best singer it has to be Rafi. Even your “superstars of today and yesteryears” voted for Rafi when it came to choosing one. If you do not believe in that look at the various polls such as the Outlook magazine poll and go through the voters list.
Sudip:
I think my head is excellent without any doubts.
Do not compare singing with any other skills that need to be learned after we are born.
Any Doctor, Engineer or the Cricketer needs to be trained and practiced after the person is born. More the practice and training they have better they are!
Singers are born! they come to this earth with their good throat, they don’t need to be trained or practiced. They show their talent without a doubt. Think, we all like to be a singer but we can’t.
Kishore Kumar was just superb, superb singer. All the stars are shining today and have much success because the great voice of Kishoreda!
If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!
I think, you need to interpret my writing again carefully and you are writing yourself in your comment, “How can someone who yell without sweetness be a “good singer”, Yes, one cannot be a!
Ashwin:
“Rafi saheb were just yelling without much sweetness of the voice and Rafi saheb never matched the voice to that of Actor’s. Rafi Saheb also have sung for less actor whereas Kishoreda have sung for many actors matching their natural voice”..
-Since you are the first one to mention this (as distant from truth as Kumble is a bigger spinner of ball than Shane Warne), I recommend you have your head checked. Rafi Saab’s main strength was the mithas (sweetness of voice).
And your writing itself shows your contradictions. How can someone who yell without sweetness be a “good singer”. Make up your mind and then write..I am sure you have not heard 1/10th of the songs than any knowledgeable music follower has..
Dhani Ramji,
Singers, who need training and who learn on the earth are just practicing singers, but, remember, Kishoreda were trained in heaven, as it is evident in his voice. Kishoreda is a great gift from our creator.
Without Kishoreda singing, I do not imagine any superiority of Bollywood.
I would say Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji were good singers also, but, but Kishoreda were just superb. In singing, we are looking here the sweetness of the voice. Kishoreda’s voice is sweeter than any other man made sweet. Man made sweet can go sour the next day, but Kishoreda’s voice never went sour. Rafi saheb were just yelling without much sweetness of the voice and Rafi saheb never matched the voice to that of Actor’s. Rafi Saheb also have sung for less actor whereas Kishoreda have sung for many actors matching their natural voice.
Don’t you think, the singer who needs training, practices more and sings normal, where as the singer who does not training and practice and sings superb, is the greatest singer. Think about this logic. I think you are thinking up-side-down.
Kishoreda’s throat was perfectly tuned by our creator, who did not need any training and/or practice.
The debate must go on.It is a question of the ascertainment of refined tastes and their ascendancy.When on 31st December my ears were assailed till well after mid-night by noise called music by many these days played on DJs,I reased the value of arguing for good music.Good music has a soothing effect.It transports you to another world.After listening to it you feel relaxed and don’t have a headache.
I have never been able to like Kishore Kumar’s style of singing
nor Pancham Da’s compositions.Hear Pancham’s songs sung by himself(there is a horrendous one sung in a rasping voice whose wording I have never been able to grasp) and compare them to his father’s.Sun mere bandhu re.Which one is music? Pancham’s cacophany or his father’s soulful melody?
Times Today telecast a tribute to Pancham today and the anchor after mentioning several of Pancham’s compositions with approval remarked that his crowning achievemment was Gol maal hai,bhai sab gol maal hai.Wah! If that is music,one should keep light years away from it for one’s own health.
Some participants have commented adversely on Sony TV’s tribute to KK by his camp followers.Does any Indian TV channel have any sense of music?Where is music on TV?It is all worthless trash,including the serials.For comparison,watch Andhera Ujjala, a serial produced by PTV long time back.I don’t know of anyone who has seen that serial and who doesn’t believe it be better than all Indian soap operas and even Bollywood films.
One thing that I have noticed in the course of this debate is that the fans of Kihore make assertions only without substantiating them.One of the stock assertins repeated by many is that Kishore had a natural talent while Rafi had training and therefore Kishore was superior.What nonsense! Rafi had huge natural talent which he had refined through tremendous training.Rafi had a passion for music to which he was devoted wholeheartedly and singlemindedly.It was not so with Kishore.Rafi’s forte was singing; Kishore’s was showmanship which took several forms none of which he could master.
And let us not forget another great Bengali! Hemant Kumar.Listen to one song of Kishore and then of Hemant.Repeat it with 50 songs of either of them.If at the end,you still prefer Kishore,you certainly need some training in music.
Shekhar, I completely agree with your thoughts on the TV show “K for Kishore”. This is the worst form of tribute to a singer of Kishore’s class. And the judges on the show! Less said the better. Bhappi Lahri should take a break from judging any contest for that matter. Sudesh Bhonsle is the kind of guy who is good for nothing. He thinks mimicking Big B’s voice is the only form of singing left. I was expecting better from Amit Kumar. I think he is an original singer, and understands the nuances of music. The anchoring of the show is third rate. For the sake of KK, Amit should make Sony television and others associated with the show to understand the importance of the show and see reason.
Sony TV now have ONE MORE program to learn from.
Guys, just learnt about one MORE program on Star TV. They have also started a musical program and that also with some kids. I hear their program is also SUPERB!!! So now Sony is in deep trouble. They are STUCK with their substandard singers (Yaar woh Suhas Sawant ki awaaz suni kya ? You must hear to believe it!!!). I keep repeating – serves them right. Zara idhar ghaur kijiye huzzuuur….phir uparwale gaaney suniye……
THEN you decide why should SONY force us to ask our cable guy to STOP telecasting Sony….:
http://starvoiceofindiachhoteustaad.blogspot.com/2008/01/chhote-ustad-january-4-th-videos-star.html
Sumit Kumar:
Good that you respect your dad..How are your mom (Leena Chandravarkar) and brother Smit Kumar doing?
Hame Aur Jeene Ki Aarzoo Na Hoti
Agar Kishore Na Hote.