An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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my dear Manish ,
you wrote:
Despite that – many many people will feel the Rafi version was better (and many many people will feel the Kishore version was better).
Interestingly, I am not even sure if Kishore’s version beat the Rafi version IN 1969 charts. Maybe 1970s when the wave was on – but 1969 – I’m not sure.
My reply:
Many people means only you rafians. Actual music lover and music knowlegable always admire Kishore especially in thi song, because there is variety. Rafi sang this song as any other song. Kishore made this song “SPECIAL”. That is a real difference between great and greatest.
My dear friend, You will not be sure, but i am sure and 100% agree that Kishore’s version is much better than Rafi. I can’t compare singing because both songs singing style is different, and Kishore is far ahead of Rafi as far as playback concern.
What u wrote was 100% correct abt Padosan. Since Manna was respected as classical singer, and Kishore was not taken seriously by MDs during 50s and mid 60s (This movies release in 68-69). What Mehmood did is 100% correct, There is saying in HIndi…
“Moika padne par Gadhhe ko bhi baap banana padta hai” so Mehmood did exactly what situation requires.
Note: Intention behind this phrase is not to hurt anybody. I am sorry if i hurt anybody.
Mere dost, i think u find this anecdote hilarious, but i find it pity. I think everybody know the end result of the song….Kishore emerged as a winner. Not only as singer but also as a performer. This has been openely acepted by Manna Dey.
I was pity with Manna, because he undeestimated Kishore….
There is correction in my 3rd last blog:
It was
Please read my words and try to understand…
Many times I wrote Rafi was almost there in music industry during 70s, but it was HKSKN and AAA brought him in limelight again. But history witness that he never get the same position which he enjoyed in 80s
It is 60s not 80s….
Sorry abt it.
Manish Mere dost,
One shocking news for you…
in 71…Here is the list of top 14 songs (I already mentioned sometime back in my blog)
Kishore – 9, Rafi – 1, Manna Dey – 1, Asha – 2 (1 with Kishore), Lata – 1, MK – 1
This was completely dominated by Kishore (Most songs are Solo)…
If you don’t trust, then pls. feel free to visit this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaca_Geetmala_annual_list_1971
Dear friend Manish,
My analyses on songs. I hope u watch singing competition on couple of channels. There are many classical trained singer who easily execute Rafi’s song brilliantly, but they fail to sing Kishore’s songs.
For e.g.
– Guy from Dubai …2nd runner up in SA RE GA MA PA
– Abhas from VOI
Above 2 name are good singers, and they executed classical song technically correct, but they fail to sing “WOH SHAAM KUCHH AJEEB THI” and”YE KYA HUA”.
Please watch SA RE GA MA and VOI.
Dear Manish,
If we don’t have another Rafi, then do we have another Kishore. We can’t have another Rafi, kishore, Mukesh, Lata and Asha. They all are unique.
Bhai mere, I don’t understand what u write …
Earlier u said his song was there chartbuster more in quantity since 76. Now u published list of 80s, which has more songs. does it mean he is superior to anyone in 80s. You might not know, Rafi song was there in 81 and 82. Solo kishore was there on top 🙂
Abt RDB interview, First of all, it is not fake. Same thing told by Asha in her interview on her last birthday, and it was telecast on all news channels. I myself watched that interview.
FYI i already wrote abt it in my blog…
Please read my words and try to understand…
Many times I wrote Rafi was almost there in music industry during 70s, but it was HKSKN and AAA brought him in limelight again. But history witness that he never get the same position which he enjoyed in 80s.
Funny thing is – Mannade was deeply insulted when RD asked him to loose the “singing contest” to Kishore in Padosan. He protested it’d be silly for him to lose to a singer like Kishore. Mehmood the producer had the calm him down and assure him that he was better than Kishore. I just find that anecdote hilarious.
You brought up Tum Bin Jaoon Kahan – so let’s talk about that.
First, it is a silly comparison because the moods were different (to compare a soulful rendition to a romantic rendition is to say an apple is better than an orage) and the songs were different too (yodelling being the primary & significant difference). If yodelling is what made a singer – then goats would be Gods. Luckily, Kishore was a great singer – not just a yodeller. Hear just the singing and Kishore’s is flat in comparisons to Rafi’s. Singing versus singing – Rafi was superior.
Interestingly, Kishore had already rendered this song in Bengali 2 yrs prior and it was a big hit. This composition was designed FOR yoodleyee Kishore by his #1 composer – RD Burman. So of course Kishore would be at his best here and no weaknesses would be exposed. The composition did not take nearly full advantage of all that Rafi could offer. Surely an MD of RD’s talent was very very well aware of this. Despite that – many many people will feel the Rafi version was better (and many many people will feel the Kishore version was better).
Interestingly, I am not even sure if Kishore’s version beat the Rafi version IN 1969 charts. Maybe 1970s when the wave was on – but 1969 – I’m not sure. I’d have to check the charts but even then – it is a small matter. Kishore fans make a big deal about this song – funny – cause it is the best that KK has to offer. A more fair comparison would be a more sophisticated song rendered by both singers like “Chalkaaye Jaam” from Mere Hamdam Mere Dost or lol a song like “Nafrat Ki Duniya’ that required multi-faceted emotions.
clarifications: when I say Rafi is #1 – I mean both Binaca Geet Mala with Daffliwale AND as a singer COMMERCERIALLY (nevermind musically – that was NEVER in doubt). 6-2!
Ashu: Address this specifically – Binaca Geet Mala top 10 for year 1980
1. Dafli waale dafli bajaa mere ghunghroo bulaate (rafi, lata)
2. Meri umar ke naujawaanon dil na lagaana o deewaanon (kishore)
3. Sheesha ho ya dil ho aakhir toot jaata hai (lata)
4. (tie) Aap jaisa koi meri zindagi mein aaye to baat ban jaaye (nazia)
4. (tie) Saawan ke jhoole pade tum chale aao (lata)
4. (tie) Pardesiya yeh sach hai piya sab (kishore, lata)
5. Koyal boli duniya doli samjho dil ki boli (rafi, lata)
6. Laila main laila aisi hoon laila har koi chaahe (lata)
7. Ai yaar sun yaari teri mujhe zindagi se (rafi, asha)
8. Pal do pal ka saath hamaara pal do pal (rafi, asha)
9. Teri rab ne bana di jodi too haan kar (rafi, asha)
10. Simti hueen yeh ghadiyaan phir se na bikhar (rafi, lata)
Score reads 6-2 in favor of Rafi who is also at #1. And you’re telling me Rafi wasn’t on top in 1980 (we could argue 1977-1980 but I’ll do 1980 for now). Do you need to see the May 1980 charts too?
Ashu – there are serious doubts / questions about the authenticity of the interview. It isn’t on tape and this interview conveniently appears 17 yrs from when it was “conducted” and long, long after both RDB & Rafi can verify the truthfulness. I’d be interested in contacting Shammi Kapoor about this. More importantly, RD Burman has made statements on TAPE that directly contradict those quotes. I find it hard to believe a musical genius like RDB would say those quotes and several of RDent fanatics feel the same. I know you’re going to say I’m just ignoring the truth or believing what I want to believe lol…but I try to be logical and truthful (no one can change the truth so accept it). I ask you to read this ANALYSIS (not saying the article is fact but analysis is sensible) and pay attention to RDB’s description:
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/a-letter-to-raju-bharatan-on-rock-%e2%80%99n-roll.html
Ashu wrote: “Give Rafis’ songs to any trained singer, he will execute those songs in same way(may be not 100%, but near to it), but same is not true in case of Kishore’ song.”
Absolutely false. If this was true – there have been lots of trained singers before, during, and after Rafi. Why haven’t we had another Rafi as of yet? My friend, you’d be stretching the reasonable limits of subjectivity if you suggested a trained singer could render a song like Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon, Yeh Mera Prem Patra, Ehsaan Tera Hoga with nearly the effect of Rafi. Because for Rafi it wasn’t just vocal technique or ability – it was his mastery of taan / harkatein as Lata Mangeshkar specifically addressed and what other posters have previously reported. He’d carefully stretch or pronounce each word with perfect emotion / feeling. Kishore could do it too but IN MY OPINION Rafi could perfectly express a wider repertoire of emotions (romantic mood immediately comes to mind) and was multi-faceted in that aspect. Interestingly this also addresses your second point – which many insiders in the industry such as Lata Mangeshkar and SDB would contradict. Why did SDB choose Rafi for the three solos of Guide? Maybe technically those songs weren’t the most challenging to sing – but they required the ability to perfectly express taan / harkatein – for which SDB felt Rafi was better suited than Kishore.
Ashu wrote: “Kishore and Rafi, had these capability to send their vocal harkat to common man, and in the area i will always rate Kishore better than Rafi.”
Here is link…RDb talks abt Rafi and Kishore.
http://www.naachgaana.com/2008/01/05/rafi-wasnt-able-to-grasp-the-nuances%E2%80%A6-rd-burman/
Great blog by Sanjeev..
Reason for posting this blog to let you aware of kishore’s fav.
He respect Rafi, but his fav. were somebody else.
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Yaadon ki Baarat
Kishoreda means a lot to me. Evenings become mine very rarely, and when they do, I like to dedicate them to Kishoreda. The only times I interact with him, laugh with him, cry with him and get philosophical with him, are when I switch on my age-old tape-recorder and listen to him sing. I still consider Im not qualified to write about such a great man. But I sincerely want him to adorn my blog. The best way I could do it is by having a piece written on Kishoreda by a music lover – a superb singer himself. Join me as I walk with VG Muralikrishnan down memory lane where Kishoreda’s voice still reverberates. Incidentally, let me add Muralikrishnan is today a known name in Malayalam filmdom.
He never attended parties. He loved watching horror films. He played with his toy spooks. He made friends with the trees in his garden; he talked to them. And when he was free, he sang. Kishore Kumar Ganguly saw life as a foolish game, wherein rules where made to be broken.
“In this avaricious world, every creative person is bound to be lonely. How can you deny me that right?” he asked. Yet, he married four times. He could not read the notations. Nor could he name more than three classical singers without prompting. Yet, he sang as if he was possessed. He complained of his filmmakers “who know nothing”. But when Satyajit Ray offered him him a role in his famous comedy, ‘Parash Pathar’, he literally ran away.”I was so scared,” he said. He loved to live life in his own way. As with all other great men, it was contradictions that made Kishore Kumar.
When he arrived in Bombay, Kishore Kumar Ganguly had four idols: K.L. Saigal, Marlon Brando, Boris Karloff and Topol of ‘Fiddler on the Roof’ fame. His greatest wish was to meet the legendary Kundan Lal Saigal. He also wanted to be a singer.
He arrived in Bombay as “the younger brother of the great Dadamoni, Asok Kumar”. And soon, he found himself doing bit roles as an actor. He hated acting but was too scared to tell his elder brother. Singing was confined to the bathroom, and Kishore hit the silver screen with a new brand of comedy that bordered on insanity. He tried his best to shrug off the actor’s robes. He troubled his directors to the ends of the world — He filled his eyes with romance while on an action routine. He looked into the eyes of his ‘lover’ like a monster on the prowl. The more he tried to escape, the more he was loved. And he became the second biggest draw after Dilip Kumar. He was so busy that Mohammed Rafi was assigned to sing for him in ‘Sharaarat’.
The comic roles he played in films such as ‘Half Ticket’, ‘Chalti ka Naam Gaadi’, ‘Padosan’ and ‘Jhumroo’ made him popular but he remained trapped in an image that did not project his real self. This forced him into fimmaking: In films such as ‘Door Gagan ke Chaon Mein’ (1964) and ‘Door ka Rahi’ (1971), Kishore did what he always wanted too do — sing “sad songs and do serious roles”.
Nobody was sure who the real Kishore Kumar was. Not even the man himself. He kept the world guessing. He acted, he sang, he wrote lyrics, he composed tunes, he directed films…
As a singer, he began by imitating Saigal. In life, he imitated none.
The Kishore, who we remember today, is only a fragment of the phenomenon he actually was. As was his wish, Kishore is still remembered for his recorded voice than his onscreen pranks. After a long wait of almost three decades, Kishore struck gold as a singer. Rejected by almost all major music directors in the dawn of his career, Kishore found his mentor in S. D. Burman and a lifelong friend in R. D. Burman. He had no guru who could teach him the nuances of music. But when he sang, his voice transformed the song into an emotional entity. Arguably, Kishore was the only Indian playback singer, who acted out his songs. His renditions were earthy, if not ethereal. Constantly bullied by the music critics of his age, Kishore was looked upon as a symbol of irreverence that was considered the hallmark of Hindi movies of the Seventies. But he outlived the critics, and goes on yodelling in the hearts of thousands of admirers the world over.
Kishore Kumar constantly complained about the world he found himself in. “In this crazy world, only the truly sane man appears to be mad,” he said, a few days before his death. He used to keep a skull in the bedroom, with red light emerging from its eyes, just to keep himself posted on “the futility of life”. He braved the emotional disasters in his life with the mind of a clown. The sadness, he invested in his songs. The world called Kishore Kumar “crazy”. He sang innumerable songs that carried his answer to the world. “Rote hue aate hain sab, hansta hua jo jaayega, woh muqaddar ka sikander kehlayega…!
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My dear friend,
I never sidelined ur blog. I already replied list of Binaca Geet Mala chartbuster. I differ on “Laila Majnu”. Songs are great, but i can’t excite to listen it again and again….I can’t listen it more than once. I don’t rate these songs very high except one from Lata…
…If you are talking abt Classical singer, then i can argue on taan, nakhj and other phase of the songs.
But here we are talking abt playback singing.
According to me, playback singing is singing which touches common man heart with bang. Common man should relate himself with the song in first hearing itself. It should not be like today where u listen one song 100 times and still not able to understand.
Kishore and Rafi, had these capability to send their vocal harkat to common man, and in the area i will always rate Kishore better than Rafi.
Regd Suresh Wadkar interview, Before conculding interview he said any music program will be incomplete without mentioning Kishore;s name and he gone ahead with telling one story during “BEMISAAL” song where he told abt kishore versatality. People like Rafi, Manna Dey, MK, Suresh Wadkar, Sonu Nigam are/were hesitate to accept Kishore’s popularity.
There was great interview by Manna Dey where he spoke abt recording of one song from “AMEER GAREEB”. This song(Mere Pyale Mein..) is qawaali, Manna dey though he can dominate Kishore by some classical vocal and even Laxmikant from LP asked Kishore to follow manna dey. Kishore clearly told Laxmi that he will sing in different style, Laxmi did not like but what he could do, he just gone ahead with recording. Manna Dey and Laxmikant, both agreed that Kishore’s style of singing is better in the same song. Kishore steals the show completely.
This has been told by Manna Dey.
I mean to say there would not be any difference if Kishore would have followed Manna Dey in same style.
Genious creates own path, they don’t follow others path.
SUDIP…Manna Dey complaint RDB for not choosing him for “Chingari koi Bhadke” and “Ye kya hua”.. I am sure Manna dey could have sing this song with more classical touch. Pls. answer it with honesty, will this song reached to the same height where it is now…
My answer is “NO” and “NEVER”
Manish,
Mere dost, I respect ur viewi. I don;t have any issue you admire Rafi. But what i don;t like you guys keep saying Rafi is greatest.
Do we really require to propel any great legends as greatest?
Kishore fans never bother abt greatness, they know who is great. I write many blog here to make you aware of real facts, i am sure you people already known but deny to accept.
Sudip..
u wrote
you mentioned abt dat tv show,, well dear ashu ji media is also hyping himmesh over jagjit singh, hariharan, ar rehman… does it mean himmesh is more popular??? every time hari haran’s & jagjit gazals comes silently & sells in a bulk,, more dan any of himmesh’s album,,
My reply:
i m very sad to know this. No media ever projected that Himesh is better than Jagjit. My dear friend, if himesh stay in music for next minimum 20 yrs, then we can talk abt him. Otherwise there is no point in talking abt him.
If you are comparing Himesh with Kishore, then i am very sorry to know abt taste of music. Media projecte him popular but not best singer, whereas kishore was project as good singer before 68, but people and media started comparing him with Rafi after “TUM bin Jaao kahan” song where Kishore completely surpassed Rafi. Even people started saying Kishore is better than Rafi. Is it the same case with Himesh?
Sudip,
My reply abt ur analyses on couple of Kishore and afi’s song.
First of all, If u r saying “Chingari was flat” then i must say pls. get some musical training. Talk to some genuine musician and ask abt this song and vocal artistry. My dear friend, one great thing abt kishore is, he made song looks very easy, but ask artist who sing this song. They will tell you how difficult it is to sing.
Here what u wrote:
2a) Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi
2b) Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya
2a is an excellent song, but again sung flat totally reliant on the golden voice that Kishore had. 2b goes beyond the vocal quality. The way Rafi modulates over “Khayal” in the antaras..
3a) Dil aaj shayar
3b) Kabhi khud pe
Both have similar pitch transitions.. But we see lot of classical variations in 3b..
Dil aaj Shayar, is one of the most difficult song. I have never seen somebody attempting this song. pitch and voice modulation is superb. Do you expect better range than this..Listen this line carefully.
“Leeeeeeekin lagaya hai jo daaaav hamne wo jeet kar aayenge hi”.
As you cleverly said, Kishore and Rafi approached were difficult. My dear friend, that is the real difference between them.
Give Rafis’ songs to any trained singer, he will execute those songs in same way(may be not 100%, but near to it), but same is not true in case of Kishore’ song.
That is what Kishore.
Even in 1974-1975, Rafi was NOT thrown into oblivion. He was always present on the charts. What amazes me is that his Saj Rahe Gali Ama from Kunwara Baap was #5 in 1975 – ahead of Kishore’s same song in the movie (which IMO was better). While Rafi’s singing part was beautiful – a lot of the song was errr trash. But it was immensely popular. People flocked for that kind of composition – it makes me wonder how average the musical values / trends were at that time. I do want to clarify myself: clearly Kishore was still a very successful singer in 1950s & 1960s (he had a #1 song in 1959) and had some immortal gems. But despite that- RELATIVE to Rafi – he wasn’t progressing. Kishore was great – but when you start comparing someone to Rafi – they don’t match up to the maestro.
Ashu,
Why did Rafi always sing for the non-hero? That’s not entirely true – he sang more songs & rendered more hits for Rishi Kapoor, Jeetendra, Vinod Khanna, and Dharmendra from 1970-1980. True – Kishore was the voice of Amitabh but Rafi had his hits too. Rafi could sing for non-heroes because his voice could very well suit just about anyone – Kishore’s trademark barritone could not. Rafi sang plenty for both heroes & non-heroes so I don’t see much validity to your point. It just shows his versatility for the many actors.
You cleverly sidestepped my question about the Binaca Geet Mala. See it for yourself – in 1980, 6 out of the top 10 are Rafi’s – including the #1 song from Sargam. On a monthly chart, in May of 1980, 16 out of the top 25 were Rafi’s! There’s no denying that Rafi was just as popular as Kishore (if not more) at that time.
Ashu – you talked about HKSKN again so I will address it for the last time. What Aradhana was to Kishore – Laila Maju was to Rafi. They both set the stage for the events to come. Laila Majnu was a musical blockbuster that marked Rafi’s grand “comeback”. My opinion is that Rafi was going to win the award in 1977 whether it was Kya Hua Tera Waada or the immensely popular Pardah Hai Pardah Hai.
Interestingly – Kishore was #1 on Binaca Geet Mala in 1959. Clearly he saw success in his singing career – he always wanted to be a singer first and actor second. He had his exposure to the public but it didn’t last as the top singer in that time. If he was to make it as a TOP singer in the 1960s – he should have been able to. But it wasn’t to be during that time. So yes he was busy on his acting career – but only because he wasn’t top singer in 1960s because the music styles were not in phase with his immense singing talent. Kishore was ready to pack his bags and leave in late 1960s – because he wasn’t making it as a singer.
No doubt Kishore was great. But Rafi was Rafi – beyond comparison!
Ashu:
“If you really talking abt classical, then i prefer to listen Pt. bhisen Joshi and my fav. pt. Jasraj.
I listen lots of Hindi movies songs which means i am listening to playback singers, but my classical taste are different, and i meant it different from Playback.”
-VERY SENSIBLE COMMENT.. I personally do not fall in the category of fans who think Rafi was a great classical singer. Like you my classical tastes are different.
BUT… Rafi’s approach to singing itself was very CLASSICAL in nature…As opposed to Kishore whose approach was lighter. Let us take similar songs of similar moods/genre and comparable repute:
1 a) Chingari koi bhadke
1 b) Din dhal Jaye or Hum bekhudi mein
None of these are pure classical songs..The way Rafi approached 1b) was very different from the way 1a was delivered. The great thing about 1a was Kishore’s voice, but was delivered flat and full-throated-there is no vocal artistry about it. 1b had murkiyas and subtle touches that make them songs of the Classes.
2a) Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi
2b) Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya
2a is an excellent song, but again sung flat totally reliant on the golden voice that Kishore had. 2b goes beyond the vocal quality. The way Rafi modulates over “Khayal” in the antaras..
3a) Dil aaj shayar
3b) Kabhi khud pe
Both have similar pitch transitions.. But we see lot of classical variations in 3b..
Kishore’s voice was so bass dependent that it was not possible to bring these small undulations (murkiyas) into the delivery..
As Suresh Wadkar says in http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nsbhron1bNM about Rafi. There is something divine in the rendition..That is the classical part I would talk about..
Ashu:
The link shows only the Binaca Geetmala topper. People here are talking about the top 10 songs..
You do not need to step out of this site to gauge Rafi’s popularity. The very fact there are tons of people trying to convince you (the only surviving member of the pro-KK) is a testimony of the fact..And bear in mind for the last 10 posts people have not moved out of the “post-1969”. That itself kicks of a healthy debate..If we start bringing Rafi’s golden years into the equation, have you thought what the final (in)equation will look like?
The Sony program that you mentioned is a good one, albeit a frivolous program suited to Kishore’s entertaining “happy-go-lucky” persona.. We can similarly have “P is for Pancham” or “S for Sonu”…There is a certain “gravitas” about Rafi and Lata that everyone (including KK fans) are aware of.. That gravitas, that respect, do not lend themselves to “L is for Lata” or “R is for Rafi” type of programs. “Lata JI” and “Rafi SAAB’s” names are better associated with bigger things..
ashu ji,,
for me rafi sahab was gr8st playback singer wd excellent classical vocal skills,, he was well trained under the bade gulam ali khan saab,, accn to me he was nice classical singer too,, he was trained under patiala gharana gayaki,, and juss look out how amazingly & melodiously he utilised it,,,,,,, songs like “man tarpat” “madhuban mein radhika” becoming most preferable bandishes in music schools of 2day…
bade gulam ali khan once said that “guru gud ka gud reh gya aur chela mishri ban k nikal gya”
im glad to know that you like pt.jasraj,, hope dat you know abt his high regards for rafi sahab & naushad ji..
you mentioned abt dat tv show,, well dear ashu ji media is also hyping himmesh over jagjit singh, hariharan, ar rehman… does it mean himmesh is more popular??? every time hari haran’s & jagjit gazals comes silently & sells in a bulk,, more dan any of himmesh’s album,,
media is also hyping western dance based shows(jhalak, nach baliye & all dat stuff),, does it mean dat classical dance is nowhere?? everybody know dat how much respect & attention indian classical dancers are getting world wide,, yaha k western dancers ko kon poochta hai bahar??…
my point is simple,, media cant alwys b rite….
naushad ji once said that his songs sell anually for a crore or more,, now tell me who was d leading playback singer under naushad’s music direction???
my meter of measuing popularity is class & mass appeal of an artist…
rafi sahab is dominating all d way(among d playback singers ),,, among d crores of classical music lovers & true classes,,,now among d masses both r popular(may b rafi sahab leading here also)…
ashu ji , i think u ignoring d facts as u seems 2 b very much in lv wd kk’s voice… but i like kk very much coz of his artistic skills..
aaj kal k comedians double meaining dialogs se hasate hain mgr kishore da apne humour se hasate the… half ticket is supeb example of his gr8 comic timing…
ashu sir,, in terms of singing sab jaante hain ki rafi sahab jaisa doosra koi aaya nahi hai ab tak,, lagbhag sabhi guni kalakaro k yehi raye hai…
even kk many times accepted rafi sahab’s superiorty ovr him,, kk was die hard sehgal fan & rafian as well(jaisa ki industry k log kehte hain)…
i think rafi sahab was far more gr8 & far more divine frm any of his comtemps….
My dera friend Sudip,
Which chartbuster you are talking abt? If you are considering Binaca GeetMa, then i must tell you in 70 or 71 (not sure abt year), five kishore’s songs was there in top six songs, sixth one was from Naya Zamana (sung by Lata)
I don’t understand one thing why you guys become abusive if somebody don’t have similar taste as you. Manoj kumar is fond of Mukesh and MK, it doesn’t mean Rafi was lesser to Mukesh and MK…Pls. don’t get abusive and learn to respect others like or come back with proper analysis.
Abt “Abhimaan”, Rafi never toned down. I feel he sung this song as good as Lata. And why should i go with Youtube, i know people construct or manipulate story as per their like and dislike. So i always go with my instinct.
Sudip,
FYI Dharam Veer released after HKSKN, so Rafi came in the imelight after HKSKM and AAA, not Dharam veer. Kishore sang one song with Lata in Dharam veer. You will surprised to know that that song became chartbuster for year.
“Hum Banzaron ki baat mat puchho ji”…Superb Song, and Great Composition.
On LP and Rafi Combo, LP was only musician who maintained a great balance between Rafi and Kishore in 70s. I feel “Samjhouta ghamo se kar lo” is more catchy and better composed than “Badi dur se aaye hai”. I personally like Kishore’s version.
Did you guys anlayse one thing?
Why most of the non hero songs went to Rafi, which was not the case in 60s
Songs are :-
– Deewane hai deewane ko …Zanjeer
– Ruthe rub ko mana aasan hai ….Majboor
– Badi dooe se aaye hai….Samjouta
– one song from Kunwara Baap
and many more…
My dear friend Manish,
Here is list of topmost songs in Binaca Geet Mala:
http://www.bollywoodsoundtracks.com/html/binacageetmala.htm
My dear friend Manish,
Can you send all songs from Binaca from 75 onwards? I have question for you..If there are so many hits why Rafi managed to win 1 award (thanks to RDB).
Though 70s was completely swing with Kishore wave, Mukesh managed to beg 2 filmfare award. Here is details for you:
———————————————————-
1980 – Yesudas(Dada), 1979 – Kishore(Don), 1978 – Rafi(HKSKN),1977 – Mukesh (Kabhi Kabhi), 1976 – Kishore(Amanush), 1975 – Mahendra Kapoor(Roti Kapda aur Makaan), 1974 – Narendra Chanchal(Bobby), 1973 – Mukesh (Be-imann), 1972 – Manna Dey(Mera naam joker), 1970 – Kishore(Aradhana)
————————————————–
This is correct data…
Mr. xxx
I respect ur view from bottom of my heart. I never considered Rafi ias classical singer, he was playback and people know him as playback singer not as classical singer.
If you really talking abt classical, then i prefer to listen Pt. bhisen Joshi and my fav. pt. Jasraj.
I listen lots of Hindi movies songs which means i am listening to playback singers, but my classical taste are different, and i meant it different from Playback.
I am really surprised to read you rafians exaggerated Rafi’s worldwide popularity. Is he only famous? My dear rafians, He is among few who are worldwide popular includes Kishore, sitting ontop of list.
My dear friends, How can you measure popularity?
My anlasyses on measuring popularity …
Kishore left us 20 yrs. ago, and recently sony started program on him (not talking abt quality of program). Now i will not surprise to see any new musical program on Rafi. And FYI, this program is not started by any kishore fans or his relative. It started by entertainment media who want to make money on behalf of me. Do you need any other proof for pupularity?
Addition to my last post:
——————————
I missed Caravan and Roop Tera Mastana as Rafi dominated chartbusters in the ’69-71 period.
Coming to Kalyaji-Anandji, Rafi in spite of being a gentle and non-controversial being, was fighting several gangs with vested interests in the 70s. One of them was the “Saffron” brigade led by Mr. Bharat Manoj Kumar. The b*******, ungrateful as he was towards Rafi’s contribution to his stardom in countless movies went the Mahendra Kapoor way (now don’t tell me MK was a better singer than Rafi). The “saffron” camp included B.R. Chopra, a well-known Rafi hater and was backed by the Kalyanji Anandji duo, open admirers of the clan.
//
Ashu:
First of all, do you in the heart of hearts think Rajesh Roshan was as good as his dad in terms of class (not commercial success)? Anyway my point was not to compare the two Roshans. I was just trying to point out that you missed out the senior Roshan..
Secondly, lets get the 1969 figure out of our head. 1969 marked the rise of Kishore, sure. But 1969 did not mark the demise of Rafi.. Till 1971 and maybe part of 1972, it was head-to-head. Rafi’s curve was going down, Kishore’s was going up, but in terms of absolute commercial hits it was absolutely a tie. Gora Aur Kaala, Dharti, Aaya Sawan Jhoom ke, Khilona, Heer Ranjha, Talash, The Train, Mehboob Ki Mehndi, Pyar Ka Mausam, Do Raaste, Dastak all released in the post-Aradhana period (I am not sure of Pyar hi Pyar and Chirag).
Even in 1973 Rafi delivered the best song of the year (possibly one of the best songs of all time): “Tum jo mil gaye ho”. In Samjhauta (1973), under KA composition, Rafi and Kishore were given an even number of songs, but Rafi clearly won (you can argue tastes are personal, but one cannot dispute the popularity of “Badi dooor se” vis-a-vis Samjhauta Gham o se karlo”)..
The two years where Kishore essentially sent Rafi into oblivion were 1974 and 1975. Barring a few movies like Wapas, Rafi was hardly visible.
Lot of people mark HKKN as Rafi’s comeback. I think it was Dharam Veer. LP realized the only way they could match up to the RD-KK combo was to create a combo of their own and hence we saw the string of LP-Rafi hits between 1976 and 1980.
It is glad that you mentioned Abhimaan. In “Teri bindiya re” because of the anecdote that you mentioned Rafi specially toned down. It is easily observable in the song. You can check out the comments in youtube (and I assure you those comments are not mine :-))
You also mentioned KA and Dharmendra. As far as Dharmendra and Feroz Khan were concerned, KA was split between Kishore and Rafi (maybe little more towards Kishore). Till 1971 (again post-Aradhana) it was primarily Rafi. I think one of the most underrated songs was “Dil to dil hai” (Kab Kyoon aur Kahan), the interludes of which was repeated by KA in Don. Even in 1980s Rafi sang for Dharmendra in Professor Pyarelal. I think “Tere Seewa na kiska banooga” was one of the best duets of the 1980s. I can name more songs-but I agree Kishore delivered more hits for Dharmendra under Kalyanji Anandji.
I read somebody mentioning Pt. Shiv and Hari.
If you guys remember, first movie of Shiv Hari is “SILSILA” released in 1981, couple of songs recorded when Rafi alive. Kishore sang majority of songs.
Now, You people can argue Kishore was there becuase Amitabh acted in that movie, so i have another example…
Fasle …actor Sunil Dutt
Rest of their projects released after Kishore’s death.
Ashu: let’s keep it short and simple: 16/25 of top songs on Binaca Geet Mala Charts are Rafi’s in May 1980 (before his death). You still maintain he wasn’t back on top commercially? :lol)
mr.ashu ji,,
1– no doubt kk was amazing comedian, infact d best comedian(i rate him over mehmood & johny walker,, how superbly he acted in padosan!! mehmood & sunil halted d shooting aftr 2 days as kishore was stealing every scene from dem)…
2– kk was gr8 artist,, superb actor, superb comedian, nice singer, nice md, nice lyricist as well..
3– iam agree wd sudip,, rajesh roshan never came under saying— “like father like son”….
4– now as a classical music lover & classical music student i consider rafi sahab much much much better singer dan kk,, also if we consider class & mass appeal of these maestros than there is no doubt in my mind that rafi shab is far more popular & acclaimed in true classes,, now mass appeal of kk was also gr8 but i think rafi sahab’s world wide popularity is more than his contemps….
5– kk became most sought after in early 70s only coz of gr8 rd burman, he prefferd his good frnd kk over odr singers,, & wat i believe many times his selection was wrong..
6–kk was also a die hard rafian and many times kk accepted that rafi sahab was far away from him…
7– it doesnt mean that rafi sahab is not popular amongst western music lovers,, i know many guys in my college & from many esteemed music schools of delhi,, rafi sahab & rahul dev burman are two most popular from the maestros of yesteryears(amongst western music lovers)…
8– now if we consider classic music lovers & various guni kalakars like pt.shivkumar sharma, pt.hariprasad chaurasia…. always praised these maestros:::
>rafi sahab
>naushad ji
>sachin dev burman
>madan mohan
>roshan
>shankar-jaikisan
>rahul dev burman……
9– my humble advice to you that plz go for classical music,, as being an indian we shud respect our heritage, & im sure u will change ur mind for rafi sahab…classical music is most divine music,, even beatles(no 1 band till date) appreciated dis music a lot & found dis music most divine form of music,, and u also must be knowing that maestros like pt.jasraj, pt.shiv kumar sharma(and many odrs) are far more popular than sonu, sanu, udit, himmesh or whomsoever…
10– i cant reside everywhere so im telling you abt the scenario of ncr region,, but its a well known truth that rafi sahab’s world wide popularity is more than his contemps…..
11– all these views are my personal,, not imposing myself into anybody,, i appologise if some one hurts….
12– take care….
Dear Sudip:
Here what u wrote:
WRONG!
1. Kalyanji Anandji falls in the category who did not have any particular preference. If at all, their favourite singer was Mukesh. Rafi sang around 182 songs for KA and Kishore sang 280. Of these a good number were recorded after Rafi’s death. Does not look like a straightforward preference to me!
2. Kalyanji Anandji chose singers based on actors. They chose Rafi for Shashi Kapoor (ever since the JJPK days), and Kishore for Amitabh, Dev Anand…Did anyone expect KA to choose Rafi to sing in Don for Amitabh or in Muqaddar Ka Sikander? Interestingly the same Ashu thinks RDB chose Rafi in Teesri Manzil because of Shammi only..Dichotomous and inconsistent argument..
3. Ashu mentioned Rajesh Roshan (who had some good songs with Rafi too) but conveniently forgot his dad who was a much, much better music director (Rajesh Roshan is hardly considered Baap Ka Beta).. With the “better” Roshan, Rafi was always the #1 singer.
My reply:
If somebody like Kishore, not Rafi then he is not considered “Baap Ka beta”. Really funny. I am sorry but it shows ur taste.
KA was freed to take Rafi in “DON” if they thought Rafi could have executed the song with same passion and energy they expected. By god grace, they knew that Rafi can’t deleived these songs better than Kishore. But i am sure nobody forced them to use Kishore, and fyi this movie came after 76 🙂 (Rafi got national award and nominated for AAA…thanks to RDB and LP). Kishore sang for 280 songs under KA and all songs came after 69s. KA selected Kishore for dharmendra, and if you know Rafi sang majority of dharmendra’s songs before 70s.
My dear friend, i am still firm with my words…RDB choses Rafi in Teesari Manzil because
– He was voice for SHammi
– He was top most singer
Dear Sudip, you have mentioned couple of great songs and asked me to listen in Youtube. I would like to tell you, all songs i have in my collection. My fav is “PATTA PATTA BUTA BUTA”. I think tis is great composition by LP.
In same line i would like to add my another fav.
– Ye dil tum bin kaha lagta nahi (Rafi and Lata, both are superb)
Abt Abhimaan song “Lute koi mana ka ..” Let me clear ur baseless an d imaginary point:
This song was supposed to sing by Rafi, due to some problem it was dubbed by Manhar. Finaly everybody liked it and they planned to keep this song as it is in the movie. There is a song “Teri bindiya re …” sung by Rafi and Lata, after this song actor DAVID told Asrani that Jaya is better singer than Amitabh. Please see this movie if you don’t trust my word.
Dear Dipak and Sudip,
Kishore was very much there in 50s and 60s, and if you bother abt great songs in percentage wise then kishore always ahead of Rafi in those time too.
Why you talk abt rafi aftr 76, not kishore before 69?
Rafi was reached to top and fall, that’s why he become reason for debate in later 70s era.
His graph was like this..
60s….Move upward
early 70s….Move downward
later 70s…..Consistent, but not there as it was in 60s
Now let’s analyse Kishore’s career
60s…consistent as per his singing
later 60s(especially 65 onward)….Moving upward
70s, 80s——-Moving upward and upward
I think i can give better example—
I hope everybody know Sourav Ganguly…..He was very successful in late 90s and till 2004, his career started declining since 2005, and he was out of team. Again he come back with full bang (like Rafi in 76), since he was popular (already on top) earlier, he become an object for media and his fans saying he is still same sourav, but everyone will agree to me that that is not a case. He has passed his golden days. Same is applicable in case of Rafi.
My dear friends, If you ask me specifically abt one particular personality, i will definately appraise his achievement, and if the asked personality is my ideal then i will say lot more abt him. This paragraph is in the context of Yesudas talking abt Rafi. I have seen one interview from SPB and somebody asked him abt his personal favorites, quickly he responsed Ghantsala, Kishore, Rafi and Lata.
People who are classically trained, it is defficult for them to accept Kishore as icon who surpassed Rafi (runing alone in the race and defeated when he got competition).
Dhani Ram, as ur name suggest u looks quite old guys (thought u talk logically but disappointed), You asked for similar songs (bahadur shah zafar) from Kishore. This is really funny.
We are talking here on the basis of what they have delivered. my dear friend, I am sure if people would have approached him with those style of songs undoubtely he could have done justice to these songs.
Rafians always talked abt Qawaali, Ghazal and blah blah. Do you know any MDs approached kishore with this kind of request.
It is like this..Sanjeev Kumar had played almost all characters in his life and almost acted three times of amitabh movies, but why people said amitabh is more verstaile, because whatever Amitabh has deliverd so far that is incomparable like KISHORE.
dhani ram sahab,,
comparisons are always there when there is competition, and im agree d u true classes like pt shiv kumar sharma, pt hari prasad chaurasia, pt jasraj always appreciated rafi,,
kk himself accepted that rafi sahab was far more superior than him,,
no one can beat rafi…
now regarding your comment—- “” What will you say about the music of an era when a howl like Tum kya jaano /Muhabbat kya hai grunted by RD became popular?If that is music ,then music had better shut up””””
i beg to differ,, bcoz it was rd’s versatality,, rdb was only versatile genious happened after shankar jaikishan,,,
rdb single handedly made kk most sought after singer of 70s,, he was outstanding talent among his cotemporaries…
now i wud like to add one more point that among the classes like various esteemed music schools of delhi, among the true maestros like pt shiv kumar sharma, pt hariprasad chaurasia….. in short among d classes these maestros are extremely popular–rafi ji,naushad ji, dada burman, madan ji, roshan ji & of course rahul dev burman,,, infact his later work like mera kuch samaan, khali hath sham aayi hai are very popular in classes,, im telling you the scenario of ncr(delhi,gzb,noida,gurgaon)…
as i dn know much abt masses & commercial aspects but its a well known fact that the world wide popularity of rafi sahab is second to none…
I would like response or observations on a few points and questions:
Hundreds of movies with superb music were made between 1950 and 1965.Where was Kishore then?
From 1950 to 1965,top singers of the film industry like Rafi,Mukesh,Mahendra etc were in the prime of their lives.They were young men with youthful voices.Kishore was also their contemporary.In late sixities,all these singers were past their prime;they were in late middle age.An artist is at his best in his prime from where he begins to decline.Where was Kishore in his prime when Rafi reigned supreme?
Kishore was 58 when he died.Most of his songs were sung when he was past 50 or at least 45.What was wrong with his voice in his prime that the MD’s shunned him?
Rafi’s voice had flattened when he entered his fiftieth year,Mukesh’s staled and Kishore’s cracked after a short blaze.
What is good music?Was Sehgal a great singer? If he was,why are songs of Mukesh,Talat and Rafi closer in spirit to the trend set by him and why doesn’t Kishore attain that level?However,if Sehgal type music is not palatable to Kishorians,why did Kishore himself had such a high regard for Sehgal?
There are two songs that celebrate life:Suhaana safar aur yeh mausam hasin (Mukesh) and Zindagi ik safar hai suhaana(Kishore).Which is better and why?
Shamshad Begum,Suraiya,Mubarak Begum,Noor Jahaan had varied voices.Rafi matched up to them in scores of duets.Name the duets sung by Kishore with them.He,like Rafi,was their contemporary.Even Mukesh sang with all of them.
Why is Kishore’s ascendancy synchronimous with overall deterioration of cultural standards in our country?
What will you say about the music of an era when a howl like Tum kya jaano /Muhabbat kya hai grunted by RD became popular?If that is music ,then music had better shut up.
Both Mukesh and Rafi were given National award.Why not Kishore?
Rafi’s mother tongue was Punjabi.He sang for almost all Punjabi films made in his life time.In fact,his are the best Punjabi film songs.He had nobody to match him.I have read on this site only that he sang Bengali songs also.That is versatility and predominance,barging into another’s territory.I have never heard any Punjabi song sung by Kishore.Why is it so?
Look at these songs:Na kisi ki aankh ka noor hun{Bahadur Shah Zafar’s ghazal(is there anything remotely equivalent in Kishore’s repertoire?)},Vrindavban ka Krishan Kanhaiya sab ki aankhon kaa tara(how about Kishore?),Ai watan ai watan teri rahon pe hum,apni jaan tak ki baazi lagaa jayenge,Bari der bhai Nand lala teri raah takein brij baala,Parvar digaare aalam tera hi hai sahaara,tu Hindu banega na Mussalman banega,insaan ki aulad hai insaan banega.It is an endless list of songs in all genres.If one listens only to Rafi,one gets complete and full experience of music.Kishore didn’t add anything that didn’t exist before him.We can think of Hindi film music without Kishore Kumar without missing anything essential.Can we do that with Rafi?
Jesudas,who is regarded as the greatest singer in South India and is famous for his devotional songs,adores Rafi,so do Mehandi Hassan,Gulam Ali,Nusrat etc.Why don’t any stalwarts of equivalent stature have such regard for Kishore?
Above all I wish a debate on what is music and want a response on the following:
Ravi Shankar and Bismillah khan are two giants of the world of music.There is nobody like them.Do we agree that what they have produced is of the highest order?If so,whose songs are closer in spirit to their music,Rafi’s or Kishore’s?But if we don’t regard their music,then we are debating only cacophany.
Comparing Rafi and Kishore is comparing the incomparables and makes no musical sense.
where was KK till 1969? Why he was not prefered by many MD’s.
KK’s fan think that KK was best because he did not take any classical training.
Who stopped him from taking classical training? He had enough money and time. So please do not say that he was able to sing w/o any classical training and so he was best.
KK lacked versatility like Rafi. I have never or hardly heard KK’s clasical, ghazals, bhajans, patriotic songs, folk songs, quawallis. He was not given such songs because all MD’s (including RD) felt that KK was not suitable for those songs.
Ashu:
You also thought Asha sang better than Rafi in “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera”.. I wouldn’t debate that.. If at all to me it was marginal.. But overall, in his entire career Rafi was superb in duets. He was always the dominant voice in duets and was famous for his “late entry” even if he had two lines to sing..
Case in point:
-Late sang two lines in “Tu Ganga KI mauj”. It had no effect on the overall song.. Rafi just sang a few words in “Chalo dildaar chalo”-it changed the entire mood of the song. There are hundreds of duets where Rafi was dominant ( a gentle dominance without a dominance in amplitude). let me cite few of the famous ones:
1. Deewana Hua Badal (even if my mother sang in place of Asha, it would not have made any difference).
2. Abhi na jao chodkar
3. Yeh dil tum bin lagta nahin
4. Aaja teri yaad aayi (excellent late entry..)
5. Patta patta bota boota
Visit the youtube videos for these songs. You will find entries only about Rafi, as if these are solos.
This forced Dada Burman to choose Manohar for “Lootey koi manka nagar” in Abhimaan.. This was the turning song in the movie which caused the rift between Amitabh and Jaya..And he could not have chosen a male singer who could match the female voice.
As a Kishore fan I have to say that Rafi was the King followed by Kishore wheather you take voice range ,ability or difficult compositions..even if you go by number songs recorded .Kishore looked up to Rafi (so did menna Dey and Mahender Kapoor).Kishore even offered songs that he could sing well as Rafi .Even if we go by number hero and the life span of singing Rafi again comes out top.However we did need Kishore to complete with Rafi as Rafi had no clear rivals for 20 years.Finally Rafi did manage to sing some fine songs in 1970`s…when Rafi Died Kishore commented only he know what a great loss it was it Film Music Industry.
Ashu wrote:
“You asked me how many MDs prefer Kishore. There are many names like
– RDB
– KA
– Bappi Lahiri
– Rajesh Roshan
Above names which i mentioned were 100% fond (they are biased) of Kishore. In case of Rafi, i could remember only 3 name who are 100% fond of Rafi…They are..
– Nausad
– O P Nayyar
– Madan Mohan”
WRONG!
1. Kalyanji Anandji falls in the category who did not have any particular preference. If at all, their favourite singer was Mukesh. Rafi sang around 182 songs for KA and Kishore sang 280. Of these a good number were recorded after Rafi’s death. Does not look like a straightforward preference to me!
2. Kalyanji Anandji chose singers based on actors. They chose Rafi for Shashi Kapoor (ever since the JJPK days), and Kishore for Amitabh, Dev Anand…Did anyone expect KA to choose Rafi to sing in Don for Amitabh or in Muqaddar Ka Sikander? Interestingly the same Ashu thinks RDB chose Rafi in Teesri Manzil because of Shammi only..Dichotomous and inconsistent argument..
3. Ashu mentioned Rajesh Roshan (who had some good songs with Rafi too) but conveniently forgot his dad who was a much, much better music director (Rajesh Roshan is hardly considered Baap Ka Beta).. With the “better” Roshan, Rafi was always the #1 singer.
That leaves only RDB and Bappi. Bappi, to me does not count when it comes to good songs. Jaidev in 1 film (Hum Dono) had more good songs than Bappi gave in his lifetime.
Pls. bear with me, There are many typing mistake in my prev. blog.
My dear friend Vikram,
I like ur analysis on “Barsaat ki raat song”. It is a gem, no doubt. You are inclined toward Rafi so you are anlaysis this song with your preference and tatse.
Pls. analyse “Duniya o Duniya” It is an another gem, rendition of each and every word is superb, mind blowing. I always listen this song in my weekend, deafult. I differ on ur “little extra”, I understood what u mean, but still i would like you to elaborate.
I’ll give you scenario iin same context. Lets’s assume if same song sung by any other singer (Think of Rafi’s resemble voice Mahendra Kapoor), I am sure he would have sang this song in his style which could be definetely good. He could also able to add “little extra”.
I mean to say every singer has “Little extra”. People like that “little extra” based on taste. People who likes Hemant Kumar, they say same thing abt him.
But I like ur analysis.
Pls. analyse this song..
1. Tumko khush dekh kar main bahut khush hua
2. Tera Jalwa touba hai, Tera Jalwa
3. Jaanu Meri jaan (especially Nazon se na tol mujhe dil se kaam le)
– Don’t you thikn Kishore voice was cherry on cake in all above songs. He add so “little extra”(in ur word:) ) that he overshadow rafi
4. Tum bin jaaon kaha
– Kishore took this song to extra height…
Acording to me, that is what you mean “little extra” 🙂
My dear friend Manish,
Again ur blog is based on ur little incorrect knowledge abt singers and MDS.
FYI
-Teen Deviyan was released in 1965-66, If i am not wrong, then this movie relesead after GUIDE
– Tere Mere Sapne released in 1971, same year as “CARAVAN”
– GAMBLER (I agree KISHORE was on top).
Here what you wrote:
why was kishore #1 commercially in early 70s? you won’t like my answer but it fascinates me so i’ll say it again. rafi was undisputed #1 for 20 yrs prior. 20 years! that is a long time. especially when you consider that rafi sang for just about every hero and even within the same movie sang all the songs – even for different characters. naturally the public got tired of his voice and needed a change of voice – kishore. so for the next few years the public was “resting” from rafi.
I can only laugh on ur comment. I don’t understand one thing How can people get tired of genuine singer and genuine voice.
I am not tired of listenig Kishore and Rafi since last 30 yrs, and i believe nobody can tired of listening their fav wether it is Manna Dey, Pt. Bhimsen Joshi, Hariprasad Chourai or any legend. It is like you are consoling ur self by writing such line.
It is hisory that Rafi never regain his #1 after 70 though he was almost there till he dies.
And abt Bappi Lahiri..
Pls. don’t misunderstand me, just eager to ask. Do you have any knowldge abt music or do you play any instrument? Though i don’t rate him greatest(I mean he can’t stand next to other genious MDS), he is not worst.
I saw his interview on Zee TV recently “JEENA ISI KA NAAM HAI”, he started playing TABLA when he was 5 yrs. old, and i was impressed to see him playing TABLA in fusion with DRUM played by his son BAppa.
Bappi Lahiri who gave follwoing composition:
1. Chalte Chalte mere e geet yaad rakhna’
2. Pyaar maanga hai tumhi se
3. Manzilen aoni jagah hai
4. Pag ghugharoo bandh
5. Muskurata hua gul khilata hua mera yaar (My most fav.)
6. Kisi nazar ko tera, intezaar aaj bhi hai (Great Composition)
Before ending my blog, i must say Kishore was always there in 50s and 60s. Indian music will not compete without him in that era too. There are many brillaint execution from Kishore.
Ashu wrote:
“In teesri manjil Rafi was selected as singer because he was voice of Shammi, and my dear friend”
–Possibly true.. But did you ever wonder why RDB chose Rafi over Kishore in “The Train” for Rajesh Khanna, that too in the post Aradhana period? Going by your logic, RDB should have chosen KK since he was Rajesh’s voice. Or by the same logic, why did LP select Kishore in Rajendra Kumar’s “Aap Aayee Bahar Ayee” (though for a single low-key song)
Actually Rajesh Khanna wave was so strong in the early 70s that songs would just become hit (Not to take away credit from Kishore who fascinated me in Kati Patang, Mehbooba, Aap Ki Kasam and Amar Prem). In spite of being an ardent Rafi fan, I think Kishore, in these films, set a level very difficult to reach for anyone!
My point is simple: every single Rajesh Khanna film that Rafi was the dominant singer in, was a super hit as well. Mehboob Ki Mehndi’s music was a superhit, The Train was a superhit, Do Raaste was a super-duper hit (not to ignore Kishore and Mukesh’s contribution too), Chhoti Bahu was excellent. In fact, the song “Yeh raat hai pyasi pyasi” will easily come as one of the best romantic songs of Rajesh.
Anu Malik (not that I hold him in very high esteem) rated two Rafi songs at the top of his all-time favorites among all songs. “Tumne Mujhe Dekha” and “Gulabi aakhen”, interestingly both under the RDB baton.
I personally feel, Kishore Kumar UNDERSTOOD junior Burman (UNDERSTOOD is the key word here). This is the special bonding that a singer develops with a Music director..Rafi also sang superhits under RDB, but there is something in Kishore’s rendition that added that “extra” in Rahul Dev’s music. “Gum Hai kis ki pyar mein” or “Rim jhim gire saawan” are prime examples. Every time I listen to those songs I realize that there are murkiyas that Kishore captured so well.. Rafi has sung typical RDB numbers like “Waadiyan mera daman”- a good song, but that jhalak is somehow missing.. The only song where I thought Rafi understood RDB was “Zamane ne marey jawan kaise kaise”.
In the same token I feel Rafi UNDERSTOOD LP. There are tons of Kishore songs under LP where I thought Rafi would have done more justice to (possibly LP realized that as well, so post Dharam Veer, it was Rafi and Rafi only). LPs songs have some murkiya and harkatein which Rafi captured so well.
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PS: Similarly, Khaiyyam’s song “Aakhon mein humne aap ke” is meant to be a “RAFI song”-period.. The frequency of the song is “made for Rafi”…Everytime I listen to that song, I feel sorry for Kishore. He tried hard but………. I guess Rafi was dead by the time this was recorded.
16 out of the top 25 for binaca geet mala in May 1980 were Mohd Rafi’s! This is before rafi died – not after – so don’t think people started listening to him more out of death sympathy. That’s a fact and it directly contradicts your statement.
Ashu,
I just heard those songs you mentioned. SDB chose Kishore for the reasons mentioned. Not because they would be better in Kishore’s voice. And they weren’t exactly “career best scores” either. SDB didn’t need his first serve in 70s. Not a good idea to bring up SDB when talking Rafi vs Kishore. SDB always considered Rafi his first serve. It means SDB considered Rafi more capable musically – but he liked them both very much.
At the same time – I’m glad those songs were in the voice of Kishore. These are the first 3 Kishore songs I have heard in 4 days – else it was Rafi all the way. So thanks for the break with a new, golden voice – Kishore Kumar 🙂 but overall – rafi was the best.
i think jewel thief had 2 kk songs and 1 rafi. the difference is too insignificant to speculate. even then, that single rafi duet is the one where lata finally ended her ill advised 3 yr boycott of rafi. the other three movies you mention are from early 70s. reason is because kishore kumar was #1 commercially by then. the other two reasons are not as significant and are only my suggestions (only dada would know): sdb had seen kishore struggle for 23 years and was happy to see him get a break and give him lots of songs (2) compositions in 70s were easier to sing. you won’t agree i know – but sdb would. salaa mai to sahab bangaya was just a loud, fun song but tere mere sapne was a song difficult to perfectly express the emotions / mood – which according to dada only rafi could do justice too. so yes – the reason for taking kk over rafi was never because kk was a better singer. sdb himself stated after the kishore wave (or during) that his best singer was rafi.
why was kishore #1 commercially in early 70s? you won’t like my answer but it fascinates me so i’ll say it again. rafi was undisputed #1 for 20 yrs prior. 20 years! that is a long time. especially when you consider that rafi sang for just about every hero and even within the same movie sang all the songs – even for different characters. naturally the public got tired of his voice and needed a change of voice – kishore. so for the next few years the public was “resting” from rafi. this is why the excellent rafi songs in caravan, aap aaye bahaar, mehboob ki mehndi, and maybe even gambler were overshadowed by average kishore kumar songs in that time. today – those kishore songs are forgotten in those movies and the rafi songs are popular to this day. because people today are not experiencing that “wave”. let’s just disagree on who was #1 in 1977-1980. i’m sure if someone dug out the charts they’d see the truth. but for my money – kishore got the better fo rafi for 6 years in a 30 yr overlap. even then, you won’t deny it took kishore 23 years to “overtake” rafi. so why did it take so long if kishore was better all along? this shows that kishore may compete with rafi in one limited spectrum (70s music) – but overall – rafi was undisputed king. the careers show that. there are some songs that are best suited for kishore. then there are songs that are better suited for rafi. no denying. but the latter song is larger than the former.
people talk about reigns. rafi was 1952-1970 and kishore was 1970-1987. then it is kishore’s misfortune because 50s and 60s were golden age of music NOT only because all great singers were there (kishore, rafi, mukesh etc) but because the COMPOSERS were so much better. do you really think bappi can compete with the likes of shankar jakishan? 80s only had rdb, lp, and ka – the rest to me are insignifant. 1952-1970 whips 1970-1987 and i don’t blame kishore for that.
Ashu, The three KK songs that you mentioned in your last post are the kind of songs I was talking about. I would add Kuchh To Log Kahenge, Koi Humdum Na Raha, Jeevan se Bhari Teri Aankhein, Zindagi Ka Safar, Dekha Hai Zindagi Ko and Kora Kagaz, to name a few. These are absolute gems. Kishore Kumar is brilliant in them. Duniya -O-Duniya in particlar is among my all time favorites. I have never and will never dispute his singing abilities.
The only difference when you compare Rafi’s best with any other singer’s best is that -“little extra”- he used to add to the compositions. The way he stressed on some words in a particular song made his renditions extra special. The other day I was listening to the song “Zindagi Bhar Nahin Bhoolegi Woh Barsaat Ki Raat”, a Rafi-Lata duet. Lata for most part sings it straight. Whereas Rafi stresses more on some words, mainly Barsaat and Raat. The way he prolongs Barsaa–aa—aa—–aat and Raa–aa—-aat, is spell bounding. It was his this touch that made him tower over his other great contemporaries. He simply weaved magic with lyrics.
The three Rafi songs from the movie “Guide” are a transcendent experience. He has far exceeded the limits of playback singing. The intensity with which he rendered these songs is just divine. SD Burman was most proud of Rafi and his compositions in this movie. Two of these songs also featured in the ‘songs of the millennium’ list.
Manish,
Sorry to reply you again. i got few second, so i thought to reply you.
First of all what you said abt “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” is incorrect, but let’s assume it is correct for a second. If it is so then Pls. answer me why Kishore sang more number of songs in next releases for DevAnand under SDB
– Teen Deviyan
– Jewel Thief
– Gambler
– Tere Mere Sapne
And many more…
Now pls. don’t say, Dev Anand requested SDB to compose song for Rafi or SDB desperately wanted Rafi to sing those songs or all song sang by Rafi was difficult and Kishore was simple.
My dear friend,
I am sorry to say that you don’t have correct information. “Gaate Rahe Mera dil” song was recorded earlier, and there were no conflit for this song should be there or not.
What you said is correct for “DUM maro dum” song, I think you have mistaken.
Manish, think logically, why should one asked to invest in something which is not saleable or not very much popular (In context of Dev asking SDB to compose song for Kishore).
I’ll repeat “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” song was not composed on request of Dev Anand. Please check it, I am sure it will clear ur doubt.
My dear, SDb always bother, because he knew only Kishore can surpass Rafi and the same thing happened in 69.
I have seen one old recording of SDB in Zee channel around 92-93 programme call “GATA RAHE MERA DIL”, he was asked to name few best composition of his own and he replied “MERE SURAT TERI AANKHE”, “BANDINI”, and of course GUIDE was there but not on top. If you read my blog, i wrote
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According to me, SD gave brilliant composition for “MERI SURAT TERI AANKHE” and “BANDINI”.
You did not reply me previous blog. There are couple of songs i have mentioned which was more like Rafi’s style, but SDB prefer Kishore
for e.g.
– Kaise kahe hum, pyaar ne humko…. (Sharmilee)
– Tu ne hame kya diya ri zindagi …. (Zindagi Zindagi)
– Duniya o Duniya Tera jawaab nahi…(Naya Zamaana)
Above songs are brilliantly composed by SDB, and it is as good as GUIDE song. You are free to differ.
SDB was only MD after khmechand who recognised Kishore’s talent, that’s why he promoted Kishore. Do you remember, there was movie called “SAGINA”, acted by DILIP KUMAR. Rafi became voice for Dilip Kumar in mid60s and 70s, but SDB selected Kishore as voice for Dilip. All songs are brilliantly executed, specially “SAALA main to Saheb ban gaya” and one beautiful duet with LATA.
I personally believe Dilip could not do justice to his voice in “SAALA main to saheb ban gaya”.
Manish Kumar, You have right to differ me but one gentle request pls. gather correct information from reliable source and post it.
TYPO! I said RD Burman when it should have been SD Burman. sorry
“Therefore – RD Burman (meant SDB) did not choose Kishore over Rafi for this song because he felt it would be better in Kishore’s voice – as you suggested. If anything – if it wasn’t for Dev Anand – SDB would not have even bothered to put Kishore Kumar in the score that”
Ashu ji,
I am no one to “personally” put someone down over the Internet so I won’t. But I’ll gently say that you are grossly misinformed on some matters. For example, “Gata Rahe Mera Dil” was composed by SD Burman on the special request of Dev Anand to have at least one Kishore Kumar song in there. Therefore – RD Burman did not choose Kishore over Rafi for this song because he felt it would be better in Kishore’s voice – as you suggested. If anything – if it wasn’t for Dev Anand – SDB would not have even bothered to put Kishore Kumar in the score that he considered his career best (contrary to you).
You are certainly entitled to your personal, subjective opinion -your comments on some SDB songs grossly contradict SDB’s own opinions of his music. SDB outright told Kishore that Kishore (or any other singer for that matter) could never sing those three solos as well as Rafi. What is very “difficult” about those three songs is perfectly expression the emotions / mood of the story – which Rafi (and according to SDB) only Rafi could do justice to. This is a big contradiction to what you’re saying.
You mentioned some Rafi-Kishore duets where Kishore sounded better – interestingly I felt exactly the opposite way for those songs! I even felt it wasn’t a matter of personal taste when talking about something like melody or modulation (these things can be measured). Many of your opinions are very specific and imbalanced (i.e. you’re uber KK – nothing wrong with that). I repeat – that is fine.
Manish Kumar,
According to me, SD gave brilliant composition for “MERI SURAT TERI AANKHE” and “BANDINI”.
GUIDE is far behind to these composition. Why not SD asked Rafi to sing “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL”? Because he felt that this song would be good in Kishore voice and other songs would be good in Rafi’s voice…(Don’t forget Rafi was on top during that time). First i would like to mention, i don’t believe in word like “IF”,” AGAR AISA HOTA TO”.
Rafi’s songs in GUIDE was superb and masterpiece, but they are not very complex and complicated that no other singer could have sang.
Just listen another master priece by SD.
– TU ne hami kya diya ri zindagi..from “Zindagi Zindagi”
(Not les than guide song in any department)
– Duniya o Duniya Tera jawaab nahi… from NAYA ZAMANA
Above all are master pieces and Rafi like songs which executed by Kishore brialliantly.