An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Vipul,
If you have not yet visited the web page http://www.eternalrafi.com, please do so. You will find hundreds of Rafi songs downloads for free. I am sure you will find most of what you are looking for. What a site! I was surprised and amazed to see their collectiion. Great effort indeed!
Dhani Ram Ji,
I agree with everything that you said in your post. Recently I watched the old hindi film ‘Devdas’. There was a solo by Talat ( MITWA ). What a composition! Another solo from the same film MANZIL KI CHAH MEIN by Rafi is another example of SDB’s hold on his compositions.
ashuji,,
60s and 70s wre indeed gr8.. but 50s were unmatchable in terms of quality.. naushad sahab was stunnig from baiju baawra to mugleaazam, how can we forget naushad sahab’s gr8 contribution to 50s, he was first to introduce “gayaki ang” into filmi music, and first who really exploited strenths of kohinoor rafi sahab…..
now regarding sachin da, his variety in 50s was juss unbelievable, juss have a look into his 50s work baazi to jaal to pyaasa to kala pani to kala baazar(1960) to chalti ka naam gaadi to suajata,, and if u noticed dat how well dada exploited d strenths of kishore da in chalti ka naam gaadi, paying guest, munimji,, you have earlier mentioned some of kk duets, but tell me do u have ever listened any better kk duet than “aakhon mein kya ji ruphela baadal” under dada’s baton in 50s, i cosider this duet as best kk duet, but no doubt dat dada & sj contributed gr8ly in 60s & 70s too…
50s were just amazing, every composer, singer & lyricist contributed his best into 50s, 60s wre gr8 too, madan ji was stunnig wd his gr8 gazals, i consider 70s comparatively less quality decade, not bcoz of western music bcoz i like western artists too like norah jones, pink floyd,metallica,,.. but i think film making was degraded in 70s along wd soulful shayari,, dat affected music..but rdb was really stunning in 70s
i consider 50s as best also coz of magical work by naushad sahab, man tarpat , o dunia ke rakhwale, hum hue jinke liye barbaad, naseeb tere dar pe, meri kahani bhoolne wale all these rafi-naushad songs were just superb, wd excellent shayari.. also we cant deny d fact that shayari was at its best in 50s, many maestros consider sahir as best shayar, and according to me his best work also came in 50s wd pyaasa… jinhe naaz hai hind par, ye mehlo ye takhto, jane wo kaise log the… all these were
excellent songs wd high lyrical values, remember dat kk’s fav song “dukhi mann mere” was also from 50s under dada’s baton and sahir was too gr8 here wd his pen ….
dhani ram ji,,
regarding your comment—
“What actually all of us including you,Vikram,XXX,Maniksh and I are combatting is a certain kind of philistine taste in music”
im totally agree wd u, and if someone really wanna have a divine taste of hfm dan go for 50s music..
Adding to Dhani Ram:
I think it also has to do with the personality of the listener. With 80% certainty I can observe a person for 10 minutes and conclude if he/she prefers Rafi or Kishore or for that matter, Lata or Asha. I have seen most males who are extrovert, outbound mostly like Kishore. The soft, inbound personalities prefer Rafi. This is where Ashu feels Kishore touches his heart and Dhani Ram or me feel Rafi touches our heart. When we listen to a song we put our personality in context of that situation. With Rafi, I always feel it is my mind singing.
Don’t laugh-but Kumar Sanu realized this… he imitated the bass of Kishore, the nasal quality of Mukesh and the softness of Rafi. So he would try to punch everything into a song.. The cocktail was horrible, to say the least.
Dhani Raam, Thanks a lot for your wonderful post. I agree with all your Talat songs. they were truly gem. One more from Daag (Dilipkumar) version was …Koi nahi mera is duniya main.. Ashiyan barbaad hai.. A nice one..
I was listening to Rafi yesterday “Jine naaz hai Hind per wo kanha hai”…
A perfect combo of Sahir, SD and Rafi.
and when I heard “Tu kanha yeh bata” .. I have no doubt his superb voice quality and control.. He just can’t go wrong!
You talked about Mukesh. I used to lov his voice (and I still do) when I was in my teens (from 17 to 21) . The period when most of us fall in love for the first time :).
.His songs were really soulful. I must say that I developed my taste for Rafi after 21 and now I am totally Rafian as I know he is a true master and could sing anything.
About Mukesh, I think since most of the great songs you might already know.. But I will throw some very rear good songs…
1> Bahe na kabhi nain se neer (Film – Dr Vidya and song picturised on Dev Anand)
2> Dil ki Pareshaniyan .. Ishq ki veeraniyan (Movie Humlog)
3> Aae paysse di bezuban…
4> Dil tujhe diya tha rakhne ko tune dil ko jalake rakh diya (Malhar)
5> Tara tute Duiniya dekhe (Malhar)
6> Tule na dil tute na (Andaz – starring RK and Dilipkumar)
These are pretty old songs (late 40s and early 50s) but really great one by Mukesh.
My dear friend Sudip,
I am agreed to your last blog. Every singer add “Little extra” (borrowed this from one of the site member) to their version as per their comfort.
Mr. xxx,
I know 50s music…what abt 60s and early 70s of SDb and SJ composition?
xxx, How can I miss “Jaye toJaye kanha” … A very good one…. Thx
Vipul and Sudip
I think we are on the same wavelength and have similar tastes in music.There may be preference for this song rather than that but essentially we like soft,sweet and melodious musicn not noisy one.
What actually all of us including you,Vikram,XXX,Maniksh and I are combatting is a certain kind of philistine taste in music.I find it bizarre that someone should say that music of 50’s was not great.I find a song like Chal shuroo ho ja to be horrendous.It is what is called cacophany.Someone who likes such songs may still like some of Rafi’s songs but will find Talat to be simply intolerable.He will never be able to appreciate Sahgal’s Babul mora nahar chhooto jaaye.I have nothing against Kishore.He was there tio make a success of his career and for a time he was eminently successful.But his style of singing by and large is such that I don’t find it enjoyble at all.Much of what he has sung is just trash and an assault on refined sensibilities.Speaking for myself,I have a huge collection of music which includes Classical,ghazals,folk songs(Reshma etc),a large number of cassettes by all the leading singers of Hindi film industry upto the end of 70’s but I don,t have a single song of Kishore by choice.Somehow I don’t like him.I may also say that with the rise of Kishore,genuine lovers of music stopped listening to film music and turned to ghazals.That was the reason for the popularity of ghazals in that period.Mehndi Hassan and Ghulam Ali came into limelight because music lovers began to find film music insipid.
Speaking of Talat,Vipul, I entirely agree with you about the silken quality of his voice and his slow and melodious style of singing.It is unfortunate that the style of singing that became a rage when Kishore came to occupy the centre-stage killed the spirit of great music and Talat was not in demand.He lived much longer than his last song:Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni but was never asked to sing for any film thereafter.That is indeed a pity.His son in a recent interview said that Talat was disgusted with the kind of music being churned out by film makers.
Great music is one that doesn’t touch just the surface of your mind but enters the very depths of your soul.Talat’s songs do that.Mukesh is also wonderful.Today only heard Mukesh’s:Jhoomti chali hawa yaad aa gaya koi.What a great song!But can those for whom the height of music lies in that churlish song Chal shuroo ho ja like this golden song by Mukesh?
The question then is not about which singer one prefers but about how we define music.Indian musicologists regard music as a form of worship of God.Great and true music restores you to your inner self.It gives you the same kind of experience as a sage gets in contemplation.While listening to it,your eyes close,you shut the rest of the world out and are completely absorbed.Now I can cite numerous songs of Rafi,Talat,Mukesh and Hemant that give this kind of experienceI am afraid I can’t say the same about Kishore.
Vipul,you have provided a fair list of Talat’s golden songs.May I add a few more from memory:
1.Sab kuchh luta ke hosh mein aaye to kya kiya.
2.Beraham aasmaan meri manzil bataa hai kahaan.
3.Baichain jigar betaab nazar yeh dil hai kisi ka deewana haye deewaana
4.Jaayen to jaayen kahaan ( XXX has already alluded to it.Lata is no match for Talat in this song),
5.Humse aaya na gayaa tum se bhulalya na gayaa( this song was filmed on either Ashok Kumar or his brother.Isn’t it ironical that Ashok Kumar didn’t use Kishore’s voice? Any explanation?)
6.Aasman wale teri dunia se dil ghabhra gaya
Now the question:who is better? Talat,Mukesh or Rafi? When one listens to yeh hawa etc one thinks it is Talat;when one listens to aawaz na do or mujhe tum se kucchh na chahiye etc one thinks it is Mukesh and when one listens to tujhe kya sunaaun etc one thinks it is Rafi.I can cite a long list of songs by Mukesh sung soulfully.Kishore perhaps had a voice but soul is missing from most of his songs.
All said and done,I regard Rafi to be ahead of both Mukesh and Talat.The latter two had their limitations also.As I said in an ealier post,they sing very well in a groove.When they venture out of that,weaknesses in their voices begin to jar.Talat was even more restricted.Mukesh could sing a light song like: Naina hain jaadu bhare o gori tere naina hain jaadu bhare or dum dum diga diga etc which Talat couldn’t.Similarly,in songs like Ho ke majboor mujhe usne bulayya hoga Rafi outclasses Talat,Bhupendra and Baatish by far.Similarly, I will give equal marks to Mukesh and Rafi for Ramayya vastaa vaiyya,Rafi is far better in Dil ne phir yaad kiya barq si lehrai hai and in Jo bore kare yaar ko us yaar se tauba.Nevertheless in one of the best songs ever sung Saaranga teri yaad mein nain hue bechain Rafi couldn’t stand upto Mukesh.
Speaking of Asha’s duets I can think of three with Mukesh wihich again appear to me much better than the stuff she sang with Kishore:
1. Phir na kije meri gustaakh nigaahi ka gila
2. Voh subha kabhi to aayegi
3.Saath ho tum aur raat jawan neend kise ab chain kahaan
Vipul,Maine shayad is one of Rafi’s best songsI can’t provide you any internet link but I can provide you the name of the film after checking.From memory I can say that it is perhaps from Barsaat ki raat.I have this song on a cassette and shall confirm the name of the film.The great quality of this song is that it is sung without any or little orchestration.I can think of one song by Mukesh where little orchesta is used Kuchh sheyar sunaata hun main.
One more quality of Rafi’s singing is that he seems to be communicating each word to the listener.That is,as if he were talking to you in music.The way he articulates the words draws the attention of the listener.For example,his Ae phoolon ki raani.
Probhal Das,just one word for you.Songs cited by me are purana,maybe prehistoric but certainly not useless just as Rabindernath Tagore is purana.Do you still read Tagore and admire him or read something rubbish comparable to Chal Shuroo ho jaa?
Vipul:
The other day I was listening to the Talat version of Chal ud ja re panchi. I believe it was HMV who had Talat record this song. I used to think no one could sing this song other than Rafi (incidentally it was Rafi’s personal favorite).
But after listening to the Talat version, I changed my opinion. I think Talat added his own silken touch to the song.
mr.vipul,,
u missed d real one wen talat teamed up wd dada in taxi driver,, hope u got it,, lata sung female version of dat song..
ashuji,,
plz listen to sdb & sj in 50s,, m sure u will find 50s as most prolific & melodious…
My dear friend,
I have not heard anyone saying 50s music is great. I believe 60s and 70s music were great as well.
Even i feel music from 89 to 95 was also good.
My dear friend Vipul,
I am sure Rafi could have not justice to all those songs you have mentioned under Bappi’s composition: 🙂
The best Asha duets
1. E duniya wale puchhenge Mulawat hui ky abaat hui
2. Saara pyar tumhara maine baandh liya
3. Hawa ke saath saath
4. Dillagi ne di hawa thoda se dhua utha..(Most romatic song)
and so many…
My favourite Rafi-Asha duets are:
1. Phir milogi kabhi is baat ka waada karlo
2. Sawan aye ya na aye
I do not consider the following duets:
1. Deewana hua badal
2. Abhi na jao chodkar
They are Rafi solos to me…Even Ila Arun in place of Asha would not have made a difference.
Prabal Das, Wow! what a song you have mentioned…
Guru guru ho jao shuru…. very nice! May be one day I will develop my taste for more of such songs…
Dhani Raam mentioned “Aachha to hum chalte hai”. Another gem… I cant even think of any better song than that one.
I have few more… “Gori tere aang aang main lege hua …. dhintara dhintara teri aadaon ne mara”
We blame few MD’s and writers for double meaning songs we got in 90’s. Songs like “Choli ke pechhe” or “sarkiyelo khatiya” etc. But actually trend was started in 80’s.
In 80’s, Hindi music was raped by few MD’s and writers. Singers though not directly involved supported that rape!
Dhani Raam,
Could you tell me or post a link to this song u mentioned
“Maine shayad tumhe pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai”
I have not heard it yet.
BTW, have you heard Rafis’ “Is duniya main aae dilwalo dil ka lagana khel nahi”. A really rare and nice song in terms of lyrics.
Dhani Ram,
Tujhe kya sunao main dilruba sung by Rafi was a classic. However there was a similar song (same tune) by Talat and there was a debate on who copied whom.
The song was “Yeh Hawa yeh raat yeh Chandni teri Ek adda pe nissar hai”
Talat was superb in that song. His vibrating silky voice was really touching.
I would like to mention here Talat as one my favorite singers. I understand that he had limitations but I liked his voice.
Here are some songs by Talat,
1> Yeh Hawa yejh raat yej chandni
2> Tasveer banata hun
3> Chal diya karvan (Song picturised on Shammi) . My personal favourite
4> Jalete hai jiske liye
5> Sham -e gum ki kasam
6> Sine main sulgate hai aarmaan
7> Mera karar le ja mujhe bekarar
8> Aandhe jahan ke
9> Milte hi ankhe dil hua diwana (duet with Shamshad)
10> Aanso samaj ke kyon mujhe
11> Mahubat hi na jo samje wo zalim pyar
12> Meri Yaad main tumna
13> Zindgi dene wale sun
14> Pya per bus to nahi hai…
15> Phir wohi sham wohi gum…
OMG.. I can go on and on with Talat songs…
After Rafi, If I have to choose some1 then I think I will have to choose more than one singer.
Talat for his silky voice. Manna for his classical touch, Mukesh for his sad songs.
Dhani Ram, All you are mentioning is useless, purana, pre-historic songs. No one cares about these sub-standard songs. Look at Vipul’s list. It is so modern. Absolutely great!
I watched one of Bappi Lahiri’s programs where he was respectfully recalling Kishore Kumar’s last song. “Guru guru ho jao shuru, pyar mein dub jao guru”
What a SENTIMENTAL song!! Utmost quality!!
VIPUL
I love your inimitable tongue in the cheek style.Indeed I can’t think of anything comparable to the duets you have mentioned.They have to be acknowledged as the finest works of art simply because K/A lent their voices to them.And we have to admit that whatever was favoured by the Midas touch of K/A turned into gold irrespective of the fact whether it was musical or not.
Meanwhile,I must admit my inferior tastes in music.I heard today Rafi’s Tujhe kya sunaun main dil rubha tere samne mera haal hai.I can’t understand why Rafi was given such a song to sing when the sterling voice of K was available to carry it to unimaginable heights.I don’t even understand why music directors of such amazing depth and film makers of great sagacity persisted with Rafi from 50’s to 80’s giving him by far the largest number of songs to sing.There was quite clearly a grand conspiracy to assault and destroy the musical sensibilties of the gullible Indian audiences.
Meanwhile,Vipul,can you think of a worse song than the one mentioned above?I have heard this song a few thousand times and am still mesmerised by it but it only shows the debasement of my tastes.Now can you find a singing voice so bad that in articulating a single note there are so many variatiions in volume?Rafi’s multi-tonality disables him to be even a street singer.Rafi’s duets sung with Lata Mangeshkar are mistakenly regarded as the best duets ever sung.To cite just one that appeals to me immensely:Door basaa lein dil ki jannat jis ko zmaana loote na piar ka bandan toote na.What odd tastes have I? One Rafi Suraiya duet transports me:Bekraar hai koi aa mere dildaar aa.There is Tere bina soone nain hamare and hiundreds of others.But what are such duets compared to this divine one:Accha to hum chalte hain?I am moved even by such unheard of songs as Dil ka bhanwar karei pukar piar ka raz soono re.How horrible!
An unpardonably serious defect in Rafi’s voice was that he could sing even without orchestration or minimum orchestration.Songs like Maine shayad tumhe pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai are withoiut the accpaniment of much orchestration.Don’t you believe that good quality music is one that drowns or smothers the voice of the singer?
Meanwhile,I am reminded of another duet by Rafi/Asha:Jab se tumhein dekha hai aankhon mein tumhi tum ho.Let me know if you have ever heard a more horrendous jugalbandi than this?
Few more songs where Rafi was better than Asha.
1> Deewana hua badal
2> Bade hai Dil ke kale
3> Yaar chulbula hai….
Asha sounded loud and nasal on high notes… Rafi was at ease and sounded more sweeter….
Dear friend Manish,
I think you can do better as DAARUWAALA….Just predict things as per situation.
My dear friend, I m not frustrated…I can’t be…
You are moving away from topic.
A couple of incomparably beautiful duets sung by Asha with Rafi:
Ik pardesi mera dil le gaya jate jate meetha meetha gam de gaya
(a 50’s song still very popular.It is regularly sung by Gurdas Mann at his concerts).
Dekh hamein awaz na dena O bedard zmaane
Raat bhar ka hai mehmaan andhera kis ke roke ruka hai savera
Ik paisa de de O babu O jaane wale babu ik paisa de de (perhaps the saddest duet ever sung)
Listen to all these songs and you will appreciate the magic of Rafi’s voice.Asha is not able to match Rafi at all.Even at slightly higher notes her voice begins to squeeze,struggle and muffle.While Rafi goes through his paces with effortless ease,Asha forces her voice out.The effort and strain are clearly visible.
And here is a gem of a duet sung by Asha with Rafi:
Kaise samjhaun bari na samajh ho
It is one of the most beautiful duets ever sung but Rafi carries it singlehandedly.Asha doesn’t have in her voice the volume required for singing this mellifluous song.
For sad songs,after Rafi,are undoubtedly Mukesh(if Rafi has a peer in quality,it is only this singer though I’d not like to argue about it.We all have our personal choices) and Talat Mahmood.
Dhani Raam,
You asked a question about Kishore Asha duets?
Where do Kishore Asha duets stand in comparison?
Coud you please thorow some lights on KK-Asha duets of 80’s? Do not you think these were high standard songs (In other words real quality) songs and both singers complimented each other very well.
Some more examples ….
Lakdi nahi hai to ladki ka khmba hai.. bakbak mat kar (aaisa kuchhh)
Wah wah khel shru ho gaya…. kuchh mila kuchh gaya…. etc. etc…
do you want me to write many more? I think one person here knows more than me .. he can give you more of such QUALITY songs…
Someone wrote here:
“And i never derail from topic, it is you guys always derail.. Please read all my post..If u guys don’t get anythign, then start talking abt Qawwalli, ghazal and blah blah.. I already replied on that.
No doubt, Rafi sang more songs than Kishore….But he is behind in quality.”
My reply : I agree wit him. Rafi sang more songs than KK many MD’s approached him. KK was non existent till 1969. So we all agree that Rafi was more preferred than KK so he sang more.
Now his second stament about quality… He said Rafi was behind in quality than KK. (This is the best analysis by him.. hats off. I can just agree)
I again agree with him. Rafi sang lots of songs till 1969 and KK sang very few. Quality of rafi songs were very low. I am not sure why every1 call 1950 and 1960 as Golden Period of Hindi music. I am sure that they must be referring to songs sung by other singers (other than Rafi)
KK came into lime light after 1969 and quality of Hindi music improved. However Rafi was right there till 1980 to provide non quality songs. so there was a balance (between quality songs and bad songs)
Only after Rafi’s death 1980, balance got tilted towards quality songs. KK sang many quality songs in 80’s Remember those Jitendra songs…
Taki ho Taki oo taki taki
Naino main sapna…
Mama miya pom pom…
Ek aankh marun to parda
Galo pe yej kaise nishaan
Icecream khaogi picture dekhogi… ha ha
Uiima uuima musshkil yeh kya ho gayi. sadi (nikal) hawa ho gayi
Zhopdei main charpai…
Mana mana maine mana main hun mawali (and many more….)
All these were real quality songs and required lots of singing talent.
In this post, I will not delve on who is better (as promised to Ashu), but lay out my perspective on the analysis methods (just like Sriram).
1. I think we have laid too much emphasis on “who overtook whom”. To me, it does not matter. Even Pankaj Mullick can be the greatest singer in Hindi films though he “overtook” no one in popularity in his lifetime. When we talk of the greatest singer, we need to look at the bigger picture.
2.The voice is just an instantaneous element, it does give us an instant impression, but does not say all. For example: I found Yesudas’s voice to be of extremely good quality, Bhupinder was too good in some songs, Anup Ghosal was great in “Tujhse Naaraz”.. Does not give a wholesome picture..Singing for Johnie Walker is supposed to be a bit rusty…One has to factor that in..
3. The era and associated circumstances are very important. What recording facilities were available at that time? Did the singer bring any fundamental change in singing? Was he a pioneer in some genre? There is a reason why Kishore idolizes Saigal..To the modern ear, Sonu Nigam is 100 times more attractive than Saigal. Does this mean, Sonu Nigam is a better singer than Saigal? Most likely NO.
4. How perfect/authentic was the singer in bringing out nuances of a genre? Example: Does the Bhatiali (boatman’s song in Bengal) sound like Bhatiali? That way Sachin Dev Burman was authentic in his treatment. “O Majhi re”, though hugely popular was not as authentic (just an example, not to demean Kishore).
5. Since we are judging film music, does the singer represent the scenes/sequences well in his expressions?
Of course the base qualities like perfection and voice matter a lot too..
Ashu: I understand your frustrations. I don’t think you can generalize – both Rafi & Kishore fans are equally guilty. Sometimes it is a Rafian – another time it will be a KKKlan member 🙂
To continue my analysis, I will go further and say that imo the graphs of *all* the greatest singers (Saigal, Mukesh, Manna Dey, HK, Lata, Rafi, KK, Asha, and yes, Alka, Udit) will be inverted Vs of more or less the *same height* (i.e viewer satisfaction on a weighted set of metrics) — they differ *only* in the *size of the base* of the V (range/capability/actors). For e.g even Mukesh ji is incomparable in so many songs, but his voice was suited to so few actors (perfect fit for only Raj Kapoor afaik).
If there is anything I would like to contribute to the discussion, it is that different singers will have differing scores on the various criteria (technical, voice quality, movie enhancement), so no one could be (or is) the best in all of these measures over all songs.
In order to measure the best, we have to construct a weighted set of measures (the weights are subjective), assign points to each singer for each song for each criterion (again subjective), calculate weighted score for each singer for each song, add up the scores to find the best.
I estimate this will take a century or two for even two singers :-). For the moment, what say we just enjoy their songs?
Regards
Sriram
Dear all…espec Binu, Sanjay, Sudip, P. Haldar, myk
I am indebted to all of you for pointing out such gems to me in the course of the debate. Songs I had never heard before, or even underestimated (e.g tum nahin ya hum nahin), I was able to go back and listen to.
The debate will never be over, imho. But I am glad the debate exists as I have been able to broaden my knowledge just by going through these comments and following the links.
After reading these comments, I happened to watch some Amitabh songs, and on mulling over it, I feel that peerless though Rafiji is, KK too is incomparable in songs such as
— Janu meri jaan
— Tera mujhse hai pehle (compare with female version).
— Dilbar mere kab tak mujhe
— Manzilen apni jagah
— dil aaj shayar hai
— Tum saath ho jab apne, duniya ko dikha
Btw, am aware that not all of above songs are by Amitabhji — but his songs were what made it clear to me that, in terms of providing entertainment, both are probably umatched.
If the x-axis is a measure of the singers range of songs (genres/actors/MDs) and the y-axis measures a combined metric of various attributes (technical perfection, voice quality, suiting the actor (Diversion — since we are talking about playback, one measure of success should be that the audience feel the actor is actually singing the lines in question i.e contribution to overall music experience. e.g in one of the links, I heard Yesudasji singing for Amitabh, but it was not convincing. Even Main Pal Do Pal, great as it is standalone, is simply not convincing in the movie because you (I) can’t feel Amitabh is really singing it), what we will find is that both KK and Rafi’s graphs will be inverted V’s (with the same height i.e degree of perfection), but with different bases (i.e Rafiji reaches perfection in a greater variety of songs).
So much for my analysis. I dont feel I am biased because I enjoy both singers equally (though sing more Rafiji’s songs, my voice being softer than required to sing KK convincingly). I did not intend to write such a long post, just wanted to thank the knowledgeable folks, then thought I should contribute my 2 paisa.
I have not been able to listen to Manna Dey ji’s upare gagan vishaal. If some kindly soul could point me in the right direction.
Thanks to all
Sriram
Those who wish to wallow in shame have full freedom to do so whil the honourable lot will go ahead with some solid arguments in the teeth of intemperance,abuse and the slang of the slums in which the drum beaters of Kishore specialise.On this site itself one worthy has filled his entire post with Kishore Zindabad-Rafi Murdabad.Even poor Kishore deserves admirers of better quality.I really pity the man! On Sony TV he is being exploited by buffoonery and on this site he has a bunch of frivolous ranters to root for him.Compare this with the urbanity,sophistication and sagacity of someone like Mr XXX, a model Rafi acolyte.
I repeat again that there have never been any grounds for debate
on the issue.It is only the main na maoon intransigence of the
Kishore rabble that is motivatiing Rafi’s admirers to carry on the squabble despite heavy toll on their busy schedule. Their only purpose is to make the musically illiterate see a ray of light.
Misreading,misrepresenting and befuddlement is the trick of the trade of Kishoreans.Tum rooth ke mat jana.Where did I say that this single song made Rafi and Asha superior to all others.The whole point of my argument has been distorted and deflected.Let me repeat what I said in my previous post,which though written in the simplest language, has challenged the capacities of the dim-witted.I cited Tum rooth ke mat jana only as an instance of Rafi’s mastery of all genres of singing including the rarest of the rare bolian.Kishore never sang anything of thiis kind.He didn’t step out of his groove.Whenever he tried he made a mess of it.Unlike his mindless paratroopers he was very wise in this.Like Mukesh he knew his limitations well and accepted them gracefully.When he sang Ik chatur naar,he frankly admitted to Manna De that he couldn’t go the whole hog in classical touches.To touch great heights in spite of one’s limitations show guts,grit and determination which Kishore undoubtedly had just as did Mukesh.Only Rafi had an unlimited range.Only he was capable of singing any type of song with perfect ease, superb melody and stupendous technical skill.It is for this reason that I keep Rafi in a category apart from the other luminaries of Hindi film music.Rafi is like the ocean while all others are streams.Streams too have their value.
None of the very fundamental issues raised by me regarding music and Rafi’s place in it vis a vis other singers,mainly Kishore,have been addressed by Kishore specialists.Only a single warrior is left in the field whose weapons are all rusted and blunt.He himself doesn’t know what he is talking about.I wish someone with some knowledge of music were there to fend for Kishore.
Let me cite two other gems of Rafi and Asha:
Main piar ka rahi hoon teri zulf ke saye mein zara deir thahar jaaoon.
Saathi haath baraana,ek akela thak jayega mil kar bojh uthana.
Where do Kishore Asha duets stand in comparison?
The funny thing is that Kishore trumpeters hop from one argument to another inconsitently.First they talk about the criterion of popularity and when it is shown that Rafi is by far the most popular singer(I cited Radio World Space),they take refuge in quality.That is what the Kishore sentinel is doing.When I cite Udein jab jab zulfein teri as a 50’s song still very popular,he makes a somersault and harps on the qulity of Kishore Asha duets.I have heard Udein jab jab on World Space times without number.In terms of quality who says that tum rooth ke mat jana,
main piar ka rahi hoon etc are not superior to Kishore Asha duets?When it shown that Rafi is superior in quality as well,a shower of abuse is hurled.
One sad song of Rafi in case it has been omitted by Vikram,Vipul or me is:Tu kahaan yeh bataa is nasheeli raat mein,maanei na mera dil deewana.A song of the highest quality and greatest sweetness.
Ashu:
“This feud is started by rafians, Only they are to be blamed. Kishore fans always say that Kishore is great, but they never compare him with Rafi, because they don’t have any doubt about his greatness.”
-NOW I HAVE TO OPENLY DOUBT YOUR INTEGRITY.. Around January 20th all the posts were reconciliatory. Every one agreed that “pasand is apna apna” and both singers were great.
Look at post dated January 20th 12:09 pm. Things were quiet and friendly.. Who has the next post after 12:09 pm? It is a person with the name “ASHU”. After that the debate erupted again. Now just shut up and don’t start again.
My dear Vikram,
This feud is started by rafians, Only they are to be blamed. Kishore fans always say that Kishore is great, but they never compare him with Rafi, because they don’t have any doubt abt his greatness.
I experienced only Rafians have doubt abt Rafi’s greatness. That is why they always engaged themselve in such endless debate.
Fore.g. Read other forum in Yoodleeyoo.com
– Kishore and SDB relation
– Rafians poke their nose in this forum stating SDB -Rafi combination are grater. Did anyone ask them?
There are many blogs like this.
Who is greatst among singers? everybody knows, There are many evidence. If u guys keep ur eyes closed, then we can’t help.
Dhani Ram..
U wrote:
That is:Uden jab jab zulfein teri,kwairion ke dil machlein O Jindei meriei.Cite any kishore Asha duet of equal popularity.
My reply:
Talk to 10 music lover, you hav eliberty to take Rafians, Ask them best duet of Asha…
Kishore stood on top. People will remind
– Jaane ja dhoodhata phir raha
– Ek main aur ek tu
– ha tu hi wohi dil ne jise apna kaha
– meri soni meri tammana
All songs will come after these..aur ha ‘Ode jab jab zilfe’ will never be in top 10 of asha duets..Rafi, he did not tune with Asha, because of her extra ordinary talent. There was only guys who could challenge Asha, and that is none other than KISHORE. It is accepted by ASHA….
Dhani Ram,
This debate has no end….This has been going on since last 37 yrs., and will continue forever, and who are you to say this debate is over..
This debate will never end….
U wrote:
There is one genre of singing called bolian.I know of only one song sung in Hindi films in this style and it has been sung by Rafi with Asha
My reply:
What a logic. i m very impressed 🙂 :)…I feel really shame to reply u….
Does it mean ONly Rafi and Asha are greatest and rest are zero.
And i never derail from topic, it is you guys always derail.. Please read all my post..If u guys don’t get anythign, then start talking abt Qawwalli, ghazal and blah blah.. I already replied on that.
No doubt, Rafi sang more songs than Kishore….But he is behind in quality.
You can do some analyses an dcome back with data…
Don’t assume things….Mr. Dhani Ram
My dear friend Sudip,
I can just laugh on ur comment…ha ha ha.
Rafi can’t be compare with other legends like “Mehdi Hasan, Jagjit Singh, Mukesh, Ravindra Sathe, Bhimsen Joshi, Jasraj, Lata Mangeshkar”. And i am not shy to appreciate Rafi’s greatness, why should i , it is you guys who really shy to appreciate others and He was great like Kishore. Whatever u peole write against Kishore, it will increase his popularity, so keep it up…
First of all, I never compare Legends, but i keep Rafi, Kishore and Mukesh in one category and Bhimsen, Jaraj, Jagjeet and Ravindra Sathe in other category. YOu can’t mix both. Though Kishore and Rafi sang Qawaali, Ghazal, Geet et, i can’t compare them with Jagjeet in Ghazal and other specialist singers.
My dear friend Vipul,
– I think Kishore is gretest in sad song, Mukesh is very close to him and 3rd is Rafi….
-I think Kishore and Rafi, both are greatest in Romantic…Noone come close to both. Personally i like kishore most..
i dont really leave any comments but think on this one i will im a rafi fan but also a kishore fan i think rafi was the better singer , saying that i also think kishore was good too , i dont think you can compare two great artists ,rafi was number one in all aspects but i feel the only singer who can ever come close to him is kishore rafi definatelyu had the more versality and edge over everyone.
1 mohd rafi
2 kishore kumar
after these two great singers well the rest are just there.
The debate is already over and as was to happen has been won by Rafi Sahib hands down.Actually there was nothing to debate about..The question itself shouldn’t have been raised.It is musical sacrilege to compare anybody with Rafi.
Again and again the question of popularity has been raised.Sony TV tamasha has been cited.TV is actually a butcher of music.It shouldn’t be mentioned in any discussion of music.But listen to Radio World Space.It has 2 channels devoted to Hindi music. One is Jhankar devoted to contemporary film music.Obviously it has neither Rafi nor Kishore.The other is Farishta devoted to golden oldies.Here on this channel Rafi has an overwhelming presence.Kishore also is heard sometimes.He sang some popular numbers but for his one song there are fifty of Rafi of a bertter quality.
Someone has said that Rafi hasn’t sung sad songs.This is just ignorance.Already informed participants have listed some of Rafi’s sad songs.Rafi’s output was so large and quality so high that it requires a great deal of time to compile even a fraction of his best.Nobody,including even Mukesh and Talat,could match him in conveying the pathos.I just add a couple of his songs to the lists provided by Vikram and Sudip:
Is bhari dunia mein koi bhi hamara na hua.
Karvan guzar gaya gubar dekhte rahe.
Tujhe kya sunaun main dil rubah
Chalo aaj phir us gali mein
Yeh dunia agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai
Daaman mein daag laga baithe
Koi mujhse poocche ki tum meire kya ho
Maine chand aur sitaaron ki tamanna ki thi
Baazi kisi ne piar ki jeeti ya haar di
Na jhatko zulf se paani yeh moti toot jayenge
Mujhe le chalo aaj phir us gali mein
Ai Watan Ai Watan humko teri kasam
Sau baar janam lenge
Yeh zindgi ke mele dunia mein kam na honge
Tum ek baar muhabbat ka imtehaan to lo
Parwar digaare alam tera hi hai sahara
Toote hue khwaabon ne
Tere bina soone nain hamare
If the above songs cited at random from memory don’t convince a person of Rafi’s supremacy in singing even sad songs,further effort at argument is futile.
Yes, Rafi was a playback singer.Playback singing has had a lot of variety.Rafi oudid all other singers in all genres.There have been one song wonders like Narendra Chanchal and Subheer Sen.Some like Kishore have sung a few memorable songs in just one or two genres.But Rafi’s output has been tremendous in all genres.So long as he lived the only other singer with comparable output and quality was Lata.Who was superior is a matter of opinion.Probably Rafi had a slight edge.But it doesn’t merit argument.They have been the greatest singers of all times.
When we say that Rafi was better than all other singers in each genre,we have ample proof to substantiate it.He was better than Manna in classical singing.Which classical songs has Manna sung?
Laaga chunri mein daag.Rafi could have sung it equally well.Look at a hard classical song
sung by Rafi with an established classical singer:Baat chalat nai chunri rang daari re.Listen to it decide who sings it better.
Take kawaalis.Rafi’s qawaalis sung for films are well known.I mention here just two:Aankhon mein tumhaare jalwe hain and Yah kurbaan,tuhi bata khudaaya(in Kabuliwala).Rafi was a perfect kawaali singer.Two top kawaali singers in the subcontinent have been Sabri brothers and Nusrat Ali.Tell me any of there kawaalis that Rafi couldn’t have rendered.
Pray which bhajan singer or ghazal singer in or outside films can match Rafi?Rafi wasn’t a one genre singer.So obviously he didn’t sing as many ghazals as,say,Jagjit Singh.But whichever ghazal he sang,he sang with perfection
There is one genre of singing called bolian.I know of only one song sung in Hindi films in this style and it has been sung by Rafi with Asha.The song is:Tum rooth ke mat jaana,mujhse kya shikwa deewaana hai deewaana.Is there anything of such great beauty sung by Asha with Kishore?Please mention for my enlightenment.I have great admiration for Ashaji as a singer and she must be a good judge of music.I don’t dispute what she says about Kishore.She is a career singer and can have vested interest in making certain statements.She has sung her best duets with Rafi.One I have cited above.Another was sung way back in 50’s and is still more popular than any that she sang with Kishore.That is:Uden jab jab zulfein teri,kwairion ke dil machlein O Jindei meriei.Cite any kishore Asha duet of equal popularity.
A singer who sang thousands of songs for thirty years for an industry where there was so much competition was really matchless.There has been nobody like Rafi and probably none will be in future as well.
Just one last point.When immature debaters begin to lose the argument,they begin to harp on considerations other than the subject of debate.One participant seems to be interested more in speculating the age of the people than in comprehending what music is.I am sure we are discussing on this site the merits and demerits of Rafi and Kishore and not those of the participants.
Ashu,
I would definitely put Kishore’s Duniya -O- Duniya, Aaye Tum yaad Mujhe, Dukhi Man Mere, Koi Humdum Na Raha, Jaane Kya soch kar and Manzilein Apni Jagah Hain right there with rafi’s sad song collection. Some of Mukesh’s songs like Jaane Kahan Gaye, Ye Mera Diwanapan Hai, O Jaane Wale, Saranga Teri Yaad Mein, Zuban Pe Dard Bhari are as good as that of rafi’s or Kishore’s. Manna Dey’s Tu Pyaar Ka Sagar Hai, Pucchho Na Kaise Maine, Kaun Aaya Mere Man Ke Dware and Hansane Ki Chah Ne Kitana, are also deserving to belong with the best.
Ashu ji why would we hate Kishore? There is no reason to do so. You hate somebody when he or she is better than the person you idolise. As far as singing is concerned, my idol Rafi was the best. I have always accepted Kishore’s greatness. Nobody can ignore kishore for what he has given us all. The problem starts when your comparisons of Kishore Kumar with Rafi go wrong and ugly. Rafi was a saintly person. The way he has been maligned by some of the KK fanatics is anybody’s guess. Even Kishore had wholeheartedly accepted Rafi as the best ever. It’s hard to fathom then why you guys keep comparing the two?
Ashu:
Me as a Rafian can humbly claim I am not biased. That’s why I acknowledged lot of songs where Kishore did more justice in my blogs-you ignored them. Real bias lies with some of the die hard KK fans (not you) who argue without merit.. To clear your doubts on bias, here are few more concessions:
1. BEST entertainer of the century: KISHORE KUMAR.
2. Best singer of the young generation: Kishore Kumar
3. Most dominant singer of 1970s and 1980s: Kishore Kumar
But, when it comes to the Greatest singer across all generations over the entire time period of Hindi Film music, the parameters of judgment are very different..There is only one answer: RAFI
Ashu, quick note: I said Zindagi Ka Safar Mein (RDB) – NOT Zindagi Ek Safar (Jaikishan – he’s my favorite MD – how could I fail to know). If I mistyped – than I apologize. 🙂
Greatest voice of last century
http://stationhollywood.blogspot.com/2007/11/mohammad-rafi-greatest-voice-of-last.html
Come on Ashu. I did not even mention ‘Man Tarpat Hari’. How can you even think of bracketing this song along with ‘Ramlal Murdabad’? Man Tarpat is divine. This one would have been beyond Kishore’s capabilities even in his dreams. I don’t know anything about Ramlal Murdabad. just by glancing at the words I can say that it is a below average song. A bad song is a bad song, whether sung by Rafi or Kishore. I am atleast accepting this, even though Pyarelal (L-P duo) thinks otherwise. According to him, Rafi has done full justice to all the songs that he sang during his lifetime. I am sure him being one of the top all time music directors, he definitely is a bigger authority on music then you and me. You, on the other hand are hell bent upon turning Kishore’s trash into treasure. Meri pyari bindu is sheer crap. There are so many kishore songs that belong to this category, especially the ones from late 70’s and 80’s. I am sure there are some rafi songs that would not measure up his high standards. Yes, this is the one category where Kishore wins all the way.
Sudip, I agree with you. Rafi had all the goodqualities of those singers mentioned by some 1 here and that is why he is considered most versatile. RAFI IS THE BEST.
Someone is talking that singers are not comparable. Why not? There is comparision in every field. Do not we compare Sachin with Lara ?
Or Murali and Shane Warne?
What is SRGMP? It is a cometition an so there is comparison.
If some1 want to drop out from comparison, then it is fine. But I am here to say that RAFI is te best and no one can deny that.
Rafi’s soft romantic songs…
1> Aap ke hassen rukh pe aaj naya
2> Kanhi ek massom si ladki
3> rukh se zara nakab
4> Yeh jo chilman hai
5> Mere mehboob tujhe
6> hai duniya usiki
7> To kahan yeh bata
8> Abhi na jao chhodkar
9> Jawaniyan yeh mast mast
10> Maine rakha hai mahobat apne afsane
11> Ab kya missal do main tumhare
12> Aaj ki raat mere
13> Tere mere sapne ab ek rang hai
14> Paav chho lene do pholon ko inayat hogi
15> Theraiyeh hosh main aa loo
16> Main kanhi kavi na ban
17> Aaj mausam bada
18> Diwana hua badal
19> Isharo isharo main
20> Mujko apne gale laga lo
many more…. YOur songs give me lots of confidence and make my life beautiful…I thank you.
I think Ashu answered it for all of us by implicitly acknowledging Rafi’s greatness.
He had to bring in Mehdi Hasan, Jagjit Singh, Mukesh, Ravindra Sathe, Bhimsen Joshi, Jasraj, Lata Mangeshkar and of course Kishore’da to counter one single person: RAFI.
That says it all.
Rafi’s sad song…. they are true gems…(Well.. I must admire those MD’s and writers for such wonderful songs…)
Here is my favourite..
1> Din dhal jaye hai… (The way Rafi starts is just divine… )
2> Duniya na bhaye mohe (a semi classical one)
3> Main yeh sochkar uske (Man gaye madan mohan sab)
4> Chal ud ja re panchhi
5> Babul ki duaan leti jaa (man gaye Rafi… )
6> Jinhe naaz hai hind per wo kanha hai (great song by SD and Sahir Ludhanvi)
7> Swapna zare phool se (great lyrics…)
8> Yaad na jaye bite dino ki
9> Meri kahani bhulne wale
10> Hue hum jinke liye barbaad
11> Aaj kal main dhal gaya
12> Mera to jo bhi kadam
13> Nafrat ki duniya ko chhodke (wow!)
14> O dur ke musafir
15> KAbhi khus pe kabhi halat pe
16> Is duniya main aae dilwalo (Listen to this rare song… )
17> Na kisi ki aankh ka noor hun
18> Kah do koi na kare yanha pyar
19> Man re to kahe na dhir dhare
20> Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
21> Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai
I will stop here as there are many more .. Rafi saab is divine in sad songs… I rate him number 1 above Mukesh too.
Mukesh had naturally nasal voice and it helped him while singing sad songs. I do love his songs too but his songs were manily on same track without much modulation as he had limited range.
Manish..
You are analysing song as per ur taste and concluding Rafi is best. i can just laugh on this…
My dear friend, u can compare any song and u r free to say so and so is best. But don’t degrade others.
If u see K for Kishore, Amit mentioned Kishore did not like to so “aaa aa aaa a” unnecessary, he wanted to make things easy and simplest…
If u r talking abt “aaa aa aaa” the pls. listen “Paayal wali dekhna” and “nasha sharab me hota to nachati bottle” last line….
My dear friend Manish, U can’t assess song, because u r baised. And i must say in this music wold everybody is biased. Everyone has their own fav. Today if we had Madan Mohan, Naushad, SDB and RDB, and would have asked to judge VOI and SA RE GA MA PA..I am sure there would be difference among their view toward one personality. So my dear friend, ur assessment is always based on ur taste.
On ur deuts analysis:
I must say….Rafi did not dominate Kishore in any of the duets. When i listen them , Kishore voice touches me lot. I am sure u will come up with 180 degree view.
My dear friend Vikram,
First, let me clear your doubt..I am not blind follower of Kishore, But i like him most…Rafi and Mukesh are my other favourites. If you take their indivisual songs, then it is very difficult to say who is greatest. I always felt all 3 are Legends..And they are incomparable.
But when i read couple of blogs from you guys (knowledgeble music person) degrading Kishore’s fame and his talent by praising others and degrading his remarkable work, i can’t stop myself then. I am sure you people don’t like Kishore, but pretend that you like him too. Reason u guys are jealous of his popularity. I can understand that. 🙂
Vikram:
U wrote:
Ashu Ji ,
Are there any better sad songs than these? A few of them are listed.
Yaad Na Jaaye Beete Dinon Ki
Din Dhal Jaaye Hai Raat Na Jaaye
Kya Se Kya Ho Gaya Bewafa Tere
Kabhi Khud Pe Kabhi Halaat Pe
Main Yeh Sochkar Uske Dar Se Utha Tha (My all time favorite)
Chahoonga Main Tujhe Saanjh Savere
Hai Duniya Usiki Zamana Usika
Dil Jo Na Keh Saka Wohi Raaze-Dil
Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
Hum Bekhudi Mein Tumko Pukare Chale
Saathi Na Koi Manzil Piya Hai Na Koi Mehfil
Dil Ke Jharokhe Mein Tujhko Bitha Kar
Tumne Mujhe Dekha Ho Kar Meherbaan
Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari Beechhade sabhi
Are you exhausted with the list? I must say all above songs are great and real gem…
Here are few songs list from Kishore….
– Duniya o Duniya
– Jaane kya soch kar nahi Gujara (Ultimate song)
– Dukhi man mere sun mera kahana
– Arey o re, dhati ki tarah har dukh sahle suraj ki tarah tu jaldi ja
(ultimate song)
– Is se pehle ki aaj tu aaye
– Kisi baat par mein kisi se khafa hu
– Main Shayar Badnaam
– Aaj tu gair sahi
– Mere naina Sawan bhado
– Matlabi hai log yaha par matlabi zamana
– Manzilein apni jagah hai
– Yadoon me wo jaaye kaha (My fav.)
– Aaye tum yaad mujhe
– Aa ri aaja nindiya tu le chal kahin
– Aadmi jo kahta hai..aadmi jo sunata hai
—I would like to mention couple of Mukesh’s songs which can’t be ignored 🙂
– khushi ki wo raat aa gayi (My most fav. song)
– e tere pyar ka gam
– Deewano se e mat puchho (i can listen this song 100 times…Nonstop)
Hope i clear ur doubt…
–
My dear friend manish,
Let me correct you..”Zindagi Ek safar hai sunha” was composed by SJ , not RDB..
u wrote:
Btw Ashu – please do get back to me on the Binaca Geet Mala – I already agreed Kishore was #1 in 1971-1976. But you said he retained #1 ever since 1969 – can you explain 1980 (please stick to the precise point of this example – 1980).
My reply:
I already sent my reply. I always like to reply…If you see my blogs, i always try to reply with truth over false information spread by few people.
My dear friend, Rafi did not retain #1 position, It was his song with Lata hit the chart as no. 1. I aske dyou to count no. of hits of 80s….It was Kishore who top the chart. Pls. count it…I already supplied link…
Totally agree Rafi for songs and KK for total entertainement .I still say re mix will better sang by orginal or control re mix in order not to spoil the original or at least credit the original singers and music directors.
Ashu,
Clever strategy – I like it 🙂
You use a small example but deliberately ignore the big picture. Yes I agree Kishore was the man for the songs for Padosan and I loved them. He was best suited for Mere Pyare Bindu. My own favorite from that movie was Mere Samne Wali Ladki. I’ve said many times there are songs that Kishore would be my top choice. But the singer with most songs being best suited for him – is Rafi. Hence he wins.
Rafi’s voice was definitely more melodious in the Chor Sipahee duet. It was FULL and lots of emotions. The Dostana duet – I loved since I was 5 – because even at that age I could sense the deep emotions of the opening singer who was more melodious as well.
Here’s an interesting comparison for you. Listen to Rafi’s Rahe Na Rahe Hum (there are multipe variations to this – there is an extended Rafi-Suman duet) and compare it with Saagar Kinare from Saagar. Both songs have the same exact tune – but Kishore’s version sounds flat, coarse, and blunt in comparison to Rafi’s. Rafi’s version is more melodious, sweeter, and silky! Kishore is great in his own way – but assessing in all bounds / domains – there is only one winner – the most versatile singer of all – Rafi. If all you care are within the limitations of Kishore – that is perfectly fine. But the singer that covers the most ground of all music lovers AND does it well – is Rafi Sahab, the greatest SINGER of all time.
Incidentally I was watching Kishore live – he is the GREATEST entertainer for me. A complete artist. But not in terms of singer.
Ashu Ji ,
Are there any better sad songs than these? A few of them are listed.
Yaad Na Jaaye Beete Dinon Ki
Din Dhal Jaaye Hai Raat Na Jaaye
Kya Se Kya Ho Gaya Bewafa Tere
Kabhi Khud Pe Kabhi Halaat Pe
Main Yeh Sochkar Uske Dar Se Utha Tha (My all time favorite)
Chahoonga Main Tujhe Saanjh Savere
Hai Duniya Usiki Zamana Usika
Dil Jo Na Keh Saka Wohi Raaze-Dil
Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
Hum Bekhudi Mein Tumko Pukare Chale
Saathi Na Koi Manzil Piya Hai Na Koi Mehfil
Dil Ke Jharokhe Mein Tujhko Bitha Kar
Tumne Mujhe Dekha Ho Kar Meherbaan
Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari Beechhade sabhi
If you are still in self denial, then I can safely conclude that you are a blind KK follower. I don’t dispute the fact that Kishore Kumar and Mukesh have also sung some absolute gems in this category. You have to give credit where it’s due. Now where did Mehndi hassan come from? I thought the whole discussion was about the film music. The facts are there for everyone to see. The evidence is overwhelmingly stacked against Kishore Kumar in all genres. You can run but can’t hide. There will always be one Bradman. All other batsmen are just pinch-hitters in front of him.
Ashu,
I’d preferred Kishore Kumar to sing “Poocho Na Yaar Kya Hua”. Rafi executed it fine but “KK cool personality” could fit that song. I’m listening to that song in my head in Kishore’s Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suahana type rendition and it is a fun song – but it still doesn’t rank with the best of RDB. I’ve maintained that sometimes one song sounds best from one particular singer. Chai Pe Bulaya by Kishore, Dost Dost Na Raha by Mukesh, or Dil Ke Jharoke Mein by Rafi. Or in this case “Poocho Na Yaar Kya Hua” for Kishore. But for me – the sing with most songs suited for him best – would be Rafi. His versatility is hard to deny – the careers clearly show it.
You seem like a genuine music lover but some fans use Mannade for convenience only. When it comes to listening to film music, the lion’s share go to Rafi & Kishore. When it comes to discussion, a Kishore fan will bring in Mannade or Ustads to downplay Rafi’s superior versatility and abilities for even toughest songs. Mannade rightly said – the masses could better relate to and understand Mohd Rafi’s rendition because he had that magic. Rafi was both class & mass. No one denies that Ustads are the best in classical music – but that doesn’t take away from Rafi’s classical abilities in FILM MUSIC. His filmy voice + abilities make him best suited for a qaawali in The Burning Train IN THE WORLD OF FILM MUSIC / PLAYBACK than any other singer including Mannade or Kishore Kumar. Why is Rafi best suuMannade acknowledges that. Aren’t you the one that said to keep this discussion to film music / playback? Whereas Kishore was mostly magic / filmy voice and not an excess of musical versatility / ability and Manna was mostly musical ability and not an excess of filmy voice / magic (hence you suggest Kishore would take many songs to great heights than Manna) – Rafi was an excess of BOTH and that is why he had the best career of all male singers in the Hindi Film Industry. This debate is between Kishore & Rafi.
Btw Ashu – please do get back to me on the Binaca Geet Mala – I already agreed Kishore was #1 in 1971-1976. But you said he retained #1 ever since 1969 – can you explain 1980 (please stick to the precise point of this example – 1980). 🙂