An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Manish, You do not understand th meaning of quality. qualit maens popularity and kk was more popular than Rafi. )
I will jus tell u one popular song of KK .
“Taki ho taki ho taki …aaps main takdhin takdhin ho gaya..”
Iske aage gane mari aulat nahi. I will let KK sing the rest of the song….
🙂
Manish.. do you want more of those quality songs? Let me know… 🙂
One important note I forgot to add was: congratulations to both Rafi & Kishore fans for being able to carry out, for the most part, a decent discussion. This is a sensitive topic for some and that usually leads to trouble but not here – not so far! 🙂
Just glimpsed at my last post and I apologize for awful grammar – not usually the case 🙁
My nutshell of Rafi & Kishore debate is very much how I think SD Burman viewed it. SDB was Kishore’s mentor and worked extensively with both singers so he authority. SD called Rafi was his first serve and Kishore was his second serve. This didn’t mean he liked Rafi more. It means he was willing to go for the ACE with Rafi. With Kishore, SDB wanted to be more sure and typically gave Kishore the lighter songs. Essentially, for the *elite* songs Rafi scores over Kishore. For the lesser songs, such as “Nothing is Impossible” – Kishore scores over Rafi. So fans who fail to fully realize the worth of songs from the 50s & 60s will essentially perceive one singer to be better than another because he scores over lesser songs or light songs. This is why the Rafi-Kishore debate has been going on for many years but as time goes the winner will be more clear. As to who determines elite or lesser – fans who have genuinely (not just sampling) listened to 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s music. Even better for who determines -TIME.
If KK fans suggest Rafi was better from 1952 to 1969 and Kishore was better from 1970 to 1987. Then it becomes a question of Roshan vs Bappi. Ehsaan Tera Hoga Mujhpe vs Khaike Pan Banaraswala. Look at it from that angle. I didn’t mention RDB because for one RDb there’s Shankar Jaikishan, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar. I didn’t mention Zindagi Ka Safar Mein (one of my all time favorites) because for every one of those there’s Zindagi Bhar Nahin, Dil Ke Jharoke Mein, Baharon Phool Barsao, Jo Wada Kiya Ta, etc. Kishore will be remembered 500 years from now because of his songs like “Zindagi Ka Safar Mein” or “Rhim Jhim Gire Sawan” but majority of his Bappi songs will be forgotten, the popularity of Khaike Pan Banaraswala songs will WANE – whereas the appeal and elements of songs like “Aisa To Na Dekho” will always remain 100% intact just like the freshness of sunlight. Trivial matters like press related hype in the 70s will have washed away 100 years from now .In fact that has already happened and music lovers tody enjoy the songs of Rafi from his so called lean phase and some of the lesser songs that made it higher on the charts during that period due the media hype, wave, trends, break from Rafi, etc. are now forgotten today. Of course, this isn’t to say that early 1970s period had all songs that were lesser – some were absolutely terrific (like Yeh Jo Mohabat Hai) – just some. Nevertheless, hopefully you see what I mean by the test of time. In a debate that focuses only on WHAT SONGS RAFI & KISHORE ACTUALLY SONG – No need for 800+ posts. Look no further than these two paragraphs.
Ashu, let’s summarize your viewpoints. Your exact words are in quotes and my commentary are not.
(1) “Ask Suresh wadekar to sing all difficult song of Rafi. I think he can do justice to those song”
(2) You suggested that Mohammed Rafi’s songs were low in quality. This suggests that the songs of SJ-Rafi, MM-Rafi, Roshan-Rafi, SDB-Rafi, Chitragupta-Rafi, Ravi-Rafi, Naushad-Rafi, OPN-Rafi, HB-Rafi were low in quality.
(3) “Why he did not persist same position when he got competitor”
You’re suggesting Mohammed Rafi was #1 in 60s because he had no competition during a period many regard as the golden age of music.
Ashu, my intention was always to speak my true thoughts. It wasn’t to superficially drag the debate with ingenuine statements like your 3 above. This is why I seeked the truth and learned from knowledgeable KK fans who interview Pyarelal about the Nafrat Ki Duniya recording and avoided silly rumors like Kishore failed to give quality in that song (he never recorded in the first place!). This is why I defended Kishore with the songs on him by Rafi because I spoke what I felt was true. This is why I tried to acknoledge that Kishore could score over Rafi in a minority of the songs.
Just because you and I have different opinion doesn’t give me a right to write you off. However, your three opinions above (I especially love the first) are beyond the limits of reason within subjectivity. No genuine music lover who is familiar with the careers of Rafi, Lata, Kishore, Asha will take you seriously. Do me a favor, before you discuss Rafi & Kishore with someone – introduce yourself to them with those three points FIRST. You’ll save them a lot of time because they’ll know immediately you don’t know what you’re talking about. Take note that the above three statements have nothing to do with Kishore (so it isn’t a comparison or a I like Rafi you like Kishore personal tastes kind of thing – those statements are absolute judgments on Rafi). It was fun debating with you but now that I realize these three statements – I will no longer entertain your discussions.
Someone mentioned that difficult songs sung by Rafi and Manna Da could be sung by any singers!
It is not true. Remember. Mukesh was voice of RK and he sang almost all songs in movie “Dil hi to hai” . However, classical “Laga chunri main daag” went to Manna Dey. The reason is simple. Woh Mukeshji ke bus ki baat nahi thi. It is as simple as that.
Sudip, You mentioned song Chal oud ja re pannchii sung by Talat. I heard the songs on you tube yesterday (2 times) . For most of the part Talat was very good. Hoever he avoided going on high notes as Rafi did so effortlessly in the original. The reason is again simple. Talat can’t go on high notes.
Same thing with RD’s block buster Hum kisi se kum nahi”. Rishi was main hero and kk did playback for him except for title Quwalli as Rafi was more suitable (RD knew it was difficult for kk to match Rafi 🙂
I am with Manna babu. He said all difficult songs went to him and Rafi and I just agree with him.
Manna da, I salute your musical sense and also your range. You are awesome.
Sudip, very well said on “WHAT IF” There is no point discussing that. Lets look at the facts and it points towards Rafi. (From 1947 till 1980). Someone very conveniently changed 1947-48 to 1952.
Rafi was very much there after 1970 also compared to almost non existent KK before 69.
Oh ! I forgot.. he was busy with acting 🙂
Ashu:
As I said who overtook him and sang better here and there are moot.
If you look at the entire spectrum of Hindi music, Rafi’s contributions are greater. It is a cumulative judgment not based on individual songs and years..I am sure even Kishore fans will agree with the fact that Rafi’s contributions between 1947-1980 was greater than Kishore’s between 1969 and 1987. Similarly, Asha Bhosle may be a better sounding singer on a few counts than Lata, but Lata’s contribution to film music is greater.
Let me tell you something else (though this is not directly related to singing). Since a lot has been discussed on Kishore and Bengalis, let me tell you. Kishore is unofficially “banned” in most “cultured” upper class Bengali households (there may be exceptions). Kishore has sung so many good songs, but somehow he is regarded as the guy with “questionable character” (with four wives), who used to sing “bad songs” (“oposanksriti” or “bad culture” if someone understands Bengali). Rafi sang a lot of bad songs (not that he sang badly), but kids grow up hearing that he sang “good songs”). Believe it or not-most people think Kishore was a drunkard though he did not drink a single drop of alcohol in his life. His tomfoolery in live shows make most people believe that he was drugged!
There was a difference in which Kishore and Rafi approached music and carried themselves (Ashu misunderstood me last time), and that made Rafi the singer of the elite and learned, and Kishore the singer of loafers, slum dwellers, etc (Pls do not get me wrong-I am not advocating it nor do I subscribe to it, but that’s the perception). Even if a song was not classical, Rafi’s approach to the song was sober and classical. Rafi carried himself with dignity and gravitas-that’s the reason why he will always be counted as a “cultural ambassador”. Kishore will never be considered a “cultural ambassador”.
I am sure this went into consideration when pundits chose the best singer of the century.
Ashu – my guess is you’re referring to the song “Geet Gaata Hoon Main”. I think I recognize you – you and I have talked on this matter before on youtub under screen names – ahahahahaha! We’ll discuss this topic and the points in your last post that I don’t agree with – tomorrow. 🙂
Thanks Vipul for ur generosity:)
I don’t want to comment on that. But i know u r among millions who can’t face truth. They think only those peole are right or great whose view matched with their view.
Vipul mere dost, it is ur call to visit this site or not.
But i would request you to pls. pls. define variety. Do you means
Qawaallis, dhumari or other form of music? If yes, then my friend here we are talking abt playback singing. So all forms are modified as per situation.
– Can anyone sing sing for “Satte Pe Satta”
Pyar hame kis mod pe le aaya….
Now pls. don’t talk abt quality of the songs. I am talking variety and other perspective of playback singing.
My dear Rafi friends,
On outlook, i have already posted my comments in details last month. Please check the blog.
Vipul, you have asked why Rafi sang 11 times for KK. I think Manish has already answer that.
– Rafi did playback for Kishore, not becuase he was better singer, but kishore was very much busy with acting. One more, few song which you have mentioned, i believe it was MDs (SJ) confidence that Rafi could do justice to that song better than Kishore…Which i am not agreed. How can you judge people based on his personality. If SJ would have asked Kishore to sing those songs, and if he could not then MDs decision could have been justified. But my dear friends, this was not the case.
It was same SJ who asked Kishore to sing in “KAL Aaj aur Kal” And “Andaz”. he could have easily asked Rafi to sing all songs picturised on Randheer Kapoor in Kal aaj aur Kal.
There was one movie, I forgot name, typical SJ style whihc was sung by Kishore in Rafi’s style. It was uploaded to Youtube by maula, but i could not see maulas’ fav. songs list. I will definetely try to find out and publish here.
Sudip, you are right. Even i don’t want to write on why kishore was not in limelight till 69. Though history says, he was one of the most popular actor during that time, and very good singer. Is it possible for genuine music lover to forget kishore’s songs executed that time. Here is few list:
1. Dukhi man mere
2. Jaago sone wale..(check the range…)
3. Koi humdum na raha
4. koi louta de mere bite hue din
5. Mere Mehboob qayamat hogi
6. Payal wali dekhna..(pure semi-classical…composed by chitragupta)
and many more….
I am commenting on what both legends have achieved as per their contribution.
Note: History never lies. History says, rafi was most popular singer from 52-69, and kishore was most popular from 69-87. I believe this can’t be changed.
Ashu, Vipul, Manish:
The last few posts have focused on WHY Kishore was not in the scene till 1969. This is exactly what I want to avoid. Whether he was acting, singing, flirting, playing soccer is not important here. It is also NOT important to do a what if analysis. All these WHAT if analysis are moot.
-What if Noor Jehan had not gone to Pakistan?
-What if Jaikishen had not died? Would RD have risen as prominently?
-What if Vinod Khanna did not take leave from movies ?
-What if Saigal had not died early?
-What if Rafi had not taken Haj in 1972?
-What if SD Burman had not fallen sick during Aradhan recording?
-What if Madonna sang Qawalis?
-What if Netaji Subhas Bose became the Prime Minister of India?
-What if Tendulkar bowled legspin more regularly, would he have eclipsed Kumble?
I repeat, this whole analysis of what if is not at all important and, lame or not, should not bear any excuse for anyone.
Fact remains, Rafi’s contribution over 35 years of Hindi film music was more than any other male singer, even though Kishore could have eclipsed him in a certain period or in certain songs. When Outlook magazine or Hero Honda millennium awards chose the best singer, they based it on facts and not on WHO HAD THE POTENTIAL..
Rafi changed the face of Hindi music. While Kishore and Mukesh was still imitating KL Saigal’s style, Rafi brought the freshness of “Suhani Raat Dhal chuki” in as early as 1949. To me this was the first modern song in Hindi film. The rest that followed are minor incremental changes. He survived the different genres of music- the Naushad era, the Nayyar era and the Burman/LP era..
When you look at the whole spectrum, he can only be compared with the elder Mangeshkar. So please stop the “WHAT IFs” and focus on facts.
Ashu wrote “Mere dost, talk abt fact not fiction”
Reply: Now this is really funny. “ulta chor kotwaal ko dante”. Dear we all know who is talking about fact and who is talking about fiction.
1> Fact: Rafi sang more Hindi songs than kk.
Fiction: kk songs were better in terms of quality. kk never concentrated on singing till 69 as he was busy in acting.
Dear, We all know what quality songs kk sang in 80’s. Please do not encourage me to put a big list of those kk songs here.
2> Fact: Rafi sang for more MD’s as he was more preferred. Even for RD he sang 100+ songs. KK hardly sang for Naushad, OP, Ravi, SJ, Sardar Malik, Madan Mohan ..
Fiction: kk was busy in acting and quality of those songs were not up to mark.
3> Fact: Rafi was even popular outside Hindi language. He sang more in terms of quantity and languages
Fiction: KK was charging more and he was anyway busy in acting.
4> Fact: Rafi even sang for kk (as many as 11 times)
Fiction: you know what, KK was busy in acting. So…you know…
5> Rafi sang all types of songs… (quality as well as quantity .. and even after 1970). It includes Classical, Ghazals, folk, Patriotic, Bhajnas.. KK hardly sang any of those even after 70. Rafi was more versatile than kk
Fiction: KK did not get a chance. If he would have then but… (Dear there is no place for if and but). and here you brought whole brigade of singers to defend KK. Ashu, you just cant win here..
6> Fact: Rafi was declared most popular male play back singer.
Fiction: .. Ashu.. please come up with one here….
7> Fact: Rafi was declared as best male playback singer of 20th century
Fiction: It does not matter…
8> Fact: Rafi and Manna dey sang many difficult songs in their life. I already gave the proof. Fact is other singers hardly sang any difficult songs because of their limitations.
Fiction: Others like Mukesh, Talat, KK would have sung those songs too if given a chance. (Dear.. no place for idf and but…)
9> Fact: Even after 69, KK hardly sang different variety. He was not versatile.
Ashu saab, I will let you stay in your dream (fiction) world. here is no point in discussing more. I think I was like a fool debating with u. My Mom always told me that “Pathhar se takraoge to apna hi sir phutega.. Pathhar waisa ka waisa he rahega”
Sorry Mom, I did not follow your advice. But now I will…. Ashu.. this could be my last reply to you.
Others, Thanks for all your input. I am glad to know that my music taste meets many of you. (Dhani Raam, Sudip, Manish Kumar, Parbal Das etc..)
Here is my email — vipulmapara@yahoo.com .. Please share your thoughts about music whenever you get a chance.
I am not going anywhere. I am on this forum but won’t reply to Ashu.. (I hope to keep my promise)
Ashu: take what SD considers his best score: Guide. Would you prefer any of the three solos in that movie to be rendered by Kishore instead of Rafi?
doston,
i am confident that as time keeps passing, say 200 years from now, there will be no rafi-kishore debate. it will become all too clear. kk fans simply bank on the press & change of trends that occurred for a brief period. these things will not matter 100 years from now, all that will matter will be the voices that remain. kk’s voice will remain too – but rafi’s songs will remain 100% heavenly & timeless like sunlight – the comparison will be obvious. we won’t be around to see it – but i’m positive.
vipul,
i deliberately gave in sj because even after, the difference is quite clear. additionally, one could argue that sj-kishore never had a chance since jaikishan died in 1971 (middle of kishore wave) etc. i just wanted to keep things simple.
as for the 11 picturisations on kishore – i think except for ajab hai dasatan and man mawra bawra – the other songs kishore would have done just fine. i know one instance where op nayyar took rafi for kishore (this is not man mawra bawra) because kishore came late for recording. as for ajab hai dasatan – i’m not sure if the off key part is true. it could be but i won’t bother pursuing it. it could be just an unsubstantiated rumor to put down kk (just like some of ashu’s remarks on rafi – him suggesting that suresh wadkar can do justice to most of rafi’s songs – hahahaahaha! it’s hard to take someone seriously after that ). besides, kk respected rafi and didn’t object to rafi doing playback. sj were very inclined towards rafi and for a song like that – all logic points that they wouldn’t even bother letting kk recording it – that song was composed for rafi in mind right from the start. i trustworthy kk fan tells me that for nafrat ki duniya 1973 – the song was composed for rafi in mind right from the start – there was no such recording by kk.
Ashu Says: “Ask Suresh wadekar to sing all difficult song of Rafi. I think he can do justice to those song”
this just goes to show how much you know about rafi
ashu – you keep ignoring the MD aspect – don’t go for why the MDs backed rafi but focus on END RESULT, what he have today (for the purpose of keeping a simple focus). who has the edge in MDs in terms of quality & quantity?
once again, for you to question the QUALITY of elite MDs of 50s and 60s once again goes to show your sound judgment.
BTW, you have not replied on why Rafi sang 11 times for KK? Was kk really busy inacting?
Is it true, that in one of the songs for film Ragini . KK was so off key that MD called Rafi to sing the same song? Just curious.
Ashu, If you talk about popularity so I will do the same. In outlook Rafi’s 7 songs were selected to kk’s 2. It is a fact and not fiction. Rafi ws declared most popular male singer and not kk. The judges were not me and you but legends like Mana, Rahman, Alka Yagnik, Sonu, Mahendra kappor etc…
and by the way .. in this forum also Rafi is more popular as there are more Rafi supporters compared to one kk supporter… kidding yaar… Dil pe mat le 🙂
Vipul:
U wrote:
Ashu, When I compared Rafi and kk, I compared them for entire Career span (from 48-49 till 80) till Rafi was alive.
Why did you stop comparing khanna and Bachhan at 1981? They both are alive and Bachhan was number 1 for longer period of time than Khanna (just like Rafi was number 1 for longer time than kk)
My reply:
I stopped comparing Rajesh khanna and Bachhan aftre 81, because Rajesh Khanna’s major hit came in and before 81(Avataar and Amrit). After that all his movie was super duper flopped except SWARG which came very late, and he was almost not doing film. Hope u got my point. As u said, Bachhan was no. 1 for longer time, it is completely untrue. If living alive is criteria than Dilip Kumar is no. 1…Because all his movie whihc he acted in 70s, 80s and even 90s (Saudagar) was super duper hit.
Mere dost, talk abt fact not fiction.
Kishore’s singing career started in full fledge from 69, before that he was just singing for himself, Dev Anand and sometime Mehmood.
Rafi’s first major hit was “Baiju Bawra” which was released in 1952.
I will not talk abt no. 1 or no.2, because you will not agree to it.
I will talk abt popularity.
Rafi’s popularity accepted from 52 – 69
Kishore from 1970 – 1987 [Rafi bounced back very well in 77, but could not regain his lost position…This is history.]
Manish, Your MD’s view on kk and Rafi is to the point. But you said SJ and RD cancel each other. How? Remember Rafi sang 100+ songs for RD and KK hardly sung for SJ. So Rafi has an edge here too.
Ashu, How are u so sure that since kk was concentrating on acting so he did not sing many songs till 69.
How about this view, Since his singing carrer was not pickling up, he concentrated on acting! There is always a second view daer. Neither your statment nor mine has any proof. The naked proof is that kk as singer never worked till 69. He was way far behind!
My dear friend Manish,
Rafi was never no. 1 in his career, but he was highly regarded singer. In 50s – 60s so called golder year of music, Rafi was one singer whose voice suits to most of the actors, though i am not agree to it.
Yes, Rafi was great during mid 50s and early 60s, thanks to great MDS of that era (i am not taking away Rafi’s contribution). Late 60s and 70s, Rafi’s voice did not remain same as during so called golder year of music.
Manish, u wrote:
This whole talk of Kishore being an actor during the golden age of music is a very, lame excuse.
My reply:
Kishore was an actor during that time, and i believe he might have acted in more movie than songs he sang. This is not excuse but naked truth. I believe turning point in Kishore’s singing career is “Teen Deviyan” movie where he got sing different mood of songs..
1. khwab ho tun ya…Romatic
2. Arey yaar meri…
3. Kitni thandi hai..
My dear friend Vipul:
Yes. Any issue with Name 🙂
U wrote:
Do you think many difficult songs that were sung by Rafi saab can be sung by Talat, Mukesh, Hemant, Saigal or your kk.
My reply: “YES”
Do you think many dificult song sung by other artists could be sung by Rafi?
And of course MY KK is far ahead of your rafi
“NO WAY”
Ask Suresh wadekar to sing all difficult song of Rafi. I think he can do justice to those song, and ask suresh wadekar to sing Kishore’s song. He could not be close to 50% of his song.
Note: Here i am not talking abt Kishore’s jolly song.
I am writing this so confidently because i heard Suresh wadekar singing Kishore and Rafi song in Live show with KA organized in Mumbai.
He sang:
– “Tumne mujhe dekha” from Teesari Manzil
– “Zindagi ka safer” from Safar
Ashu: comparing an actor’s career to a singer’s career is silly.
“Why he did not persist same position when he got competitor?”
Luckily I remind myself to differentiate between Kishore Kumar & his fans. You are suggesting that Rafi had no competition from 1950 to 1970? For those 20 years? And during the golden period? Listen to yourself – unbelievable. In any case, remember that Talat’s voice was fixated on Dilip Kumar and Raj Kapoor had Mukesh / Manna, Dev Anand had Kishore Kumar – when Mohammed Rafi entered the scene and became #1. This whole talk of Kishore being an actor during the golden age of music is a very, lame excuse.
Finally, Ashu, can you please answer the question on the perspective of MDs (one of my earlier posts)? Thanks
Ashu Wrote:
“Rafi was not best in any category, but He was one of the best. In 50s and 60s, there were pre-defined categories for the singers and Rafi got edge over other running singers like Manna Dey, talat Mehmood, Mukesh and etc, because of his voice was suitable for Heroes. Do you think other singers were less talented than him. No yaar, since Rafi’s voice was most suitable for movie actors compared to other singers. Why he did not persist same position when he got competitor”
My reply:
Dear, Rafi was the BEST and not one of the best. Do you think many difficult songs that were sung by Rafi saab can be sung by Talat, Mukesh, Hemant, Saigal or your kk. I will give few example here.
1> Man Tadpadt Hari Darshan
2> Muhobat zinda rahti hai
3> Zindabaad
4> O duniya ke rakhwale
5> Kuhu kuhu bole koyalia
6> Aklee aklele kanha ja rahe ho
7> Hai duniya usiki…
8> Kae chale hum fida and many more
I think only Manna saab can possibly sing them.
I can go on and on but as Manna said all MD’s called Rafi and him for difficult songs and he accepts Rafi’s superiority over him. When I met him personally he told us (my family) the same thing.
You mentioned kk was busy with his acting at that time. Do not give excuse. Was he so busy that Rafi sang as many as 11 times for him. Please provide proof and do not assume things. The fact is Rafi sang for him 11 times and neither you nor any kk fan can change this truth.
Even in 70’s, when kk was in limelight, most of the Quawalis, classical songs, Bhajnas, Patriotic songs went to Rafi and Manna. Why not KK? The reason is simple. He was not suitable and all kk fan agree here too. Else please provide some examples for KK’s database.
kk did sing very few Quawalis, but those songs were simplified to match kk’s style. If you see those songs w/o video, they will even not sound like quawallis (my view).. I am referring to Haal kya hai dilon ka and Wada tera wada. They are more like light songs than quawallis.
Thanks Ashu and bye.. (BTW, is your name Ashwin? Just curious… nothing personal)
Ashu Wrote:
“Rajesh Khanna was super hit from 69 to 74. He was first superstar, but he was dethroned by AMitabh after that. When Rajesh Khanna was super star, Amitabh was not close to him but Rajesh Khanna was close to Amitabh till 81. Does it mean Rajesh Khanna was no. 1 and i think Rajesh Khanna acted in more movies (like more song sung by Rafi than Kishore) than Amitabh until 85.”
Ashu, When I compared Rafi and kk, I compared them for entire Career span (from 48-49 till 80) till Rafi was alive.
Why did you stop comparing khanna and Bachhan at 1981? They both are alive and Bachhan was number 1 for longer period of time than Khanna (just like Rafi was number 1 for longer time than kk)
If you can twist the comparison, others can do the same!
By the way, I will reply to your other point in my next post. I wont sideline the main topic.
Vipul,
Ur analysis is really funny :). Till 64 or i can say till 67, Kishore was primarily actor. It doesn’t mean that he was not great singer. When he got opportunity, he made others to run for money and fame. That kind of genious, he was.
Let me tell you story.
Rajesh Khanna was super hit from 69 to 74. He was first superstar, but he was dethroned by AMitabh after that. When Rajesh Khanna was super star, Amitabh was not close to him but Rajesh Khanna was close to Amitabh till 81. Does it mean Rajesh Khanna was no. 1 and i think Rajesh Khanna acted in more movies (like more song sung by Rafi than Kishore) than Amitabh until 85.
Mere dost, Is se jyaada aur kya proof ho sakta hai 🙂
Note: Rafi was not best in any category, but He was one of the best. In 50s and 60s, there were pre-defined categories for the singers and Rafi got edge over other running singers like Manna Dey, talat Mehmood, Mukesh and etc, because of his voice was suitable for Heroes. Do you think other singers were less talented than him. No yaar, since Rafi’s voice was most suitable for movie actors compared to other singers.
Why he did not persist same position when he got competitor?
Ashu:
I was listening to Kishore yesterday.. Btw, Kishore rules my car audio but Rafi rules my bedroom :-). Since you brought up individual songs (like Aa mere Humjoli Aa), here are Kishore’s flaws that rang against my ear:
1. Gum hai kisiki pyar mein:
-The Antara was sung in a false voice. Listen to this part (Especially the “apne”):
“Keh daalon apne sab haal din ke
Aur kardoon jeevan uske hawale
Phir chhod de chaahe apna bana le”
2. Kal ki haseen mulaqat ke liye
-See how Lata rounds up “ham-tum juda ho jaate hain”. Kishore missed it in every single repetition. I would never think he was incapable of rendering it right (he was too great for this) but he did not.
3. Aakhon mein hum ne aap ki- Disaster! I think this is a pure Rafi song. I believe Khayyam went with Kishore because Rafi had died by then. But a very protracted performance. Listen to the “Saanjh aur Savera”s ongs which are composed in the same mood.
Ashu wrote to Manish:
“More Composition was given to Rafi during 50s and 60s (rafi was in demand), but not 70s. (Kishore wa sin dmand) Rafi sang lesser song than Kishore in 70s.
Please check the record…it means he was second best after Kishore ”
Agree, that after 69 till 80, Rafi was second but close second. After 80 there is no comparison as Rafi saab were no more.
However from 49 to 69-70 Rafi was on top and kk was not even second, forget close second.
However, if you look at the entire period, Rafi was far ahead of kk, so it means he was the best (number 1) .. check database.:)
Manish Kumar, very well said.. As MannaDey mentioned that all MD’s used to call him and Rafi Saab for difficult songs and he rated Rafi higher than him.
Thus if Mukesh has not sung difficult songs in his life (Please note that I lov his sad songs) that is because all MD’s were aware of his limitation.
Chai pe bulaya hai is a fun song .. no doubt.. but as a singer you do not have to do much. It does not test singer’s ability. Similarly many Rafi-KK duets, like Salamat rahe dostana or tumko khush dekhkar or Hum premi etc are very easy songs and it is not fair to compare Rafi and KK based on those songs… (It is just my point of view and people have all rights to differ)
I have met Manna Dey personally back in 1995 when I was just 24 and we talked for more than 2 hours. I will write about that later.
Manish mere dost,
U r really great, because everytime when u write, you get caught red-handed(False news).
I am not personal to you. I can’t. Pls. don’t misunderstand me. I am just pointing to your musical knowledge.
Here what u wrote:
Ashu – it is silly if you compare Kishore & Rafi for QAWWALIES, BHAJANS, PATRIOTIC. Kishore himself admitted that in his live concert with Lata, they had to replace a song with a Bhajan,
Kishore said, since Lata denied to sing “Angrezi me kahte hai” from Khuddar because of “idiot” word, they had to sing bhajan. Kishore did not remember any bhajan, but he manage to sing one bhajan which was originally sung by S D Nurman.
Humble request to you, Manish and Rafians…Please be mature and don’t spread false or half news. There are many false news like Rafi’s portrait in Kishore’s bunglow and blah blah…I already sent my comment on this.
Manish:
U wrote:
Kishore expresses the emotions very well IMO, he has a golden voice, but he didn’t sing it TECHNICALLY perfect (and I think the composition demanded that).
Can you please explain technicall perfect defination with example where kishore was not technically perfect.
Please reply me, i hav eclear cut defination for this, but i would like to know ur first a su started this.
And Monty,
U can laugh on anything, because u r a laughable object.. I can’t reply u better than this.
First tell me why did u laugh. I am sure u would had laugh before the song started, because you don’t have guts to listen full songs. I would like to mention that “KISHORE sang this song with only harmonium”
Aur manish, why u r asking monty for link. He is still laughing.
Here is a link:
http://songs.kishorekumar.org/
search for : “Manare Tu Kaahe Na” text….(Its live show…Not studio recording)
Prabol das,
Na ho “UDAAS”. There was song from Rafi:
“Duniya Paagal hai, ya phir main Deewana”.
My dear friend Manish..
Well come back.
I am glad that u repeated my word, especially bold one below:
u wrote:
Melody in the voice, range, voice quality in all kinds of songs, what the singers rendred, etc. You are correct about compositions – but remember that singers are chosen based on compositions. Kishore & Rafi were both around in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
My reply:
I would like to add….Singer are chosen not only based on composition but also song mood, MDs comfort, and above all which singer has got more demand (Pls. don’t inroduce Himesh). I am talking abt legends who rule stheindustry for 20-20 yrs…I would like to correct you…More Composition was given to Rafi during 50s and 60s (rafi was in demand), but not 70s. (Kishore wa sin dmand) Rafi sang lesser song than Kishore in 70s.
Please check the record…it means he was second best after Kishore 🙂
Manish, i am sorry to say that you again come back with wrong data:)
Sudip.
Here u r wrong. I am great fan of Rafi too. I have my own collection of Rafi which i always carry in my “Creative” mp3 player.
My 1 GB mp3 player has 4 folders:
1. Kishore
2. Mukesh
3. rafi
4. Kishore Duets with Lata and Asha…
I thikn above info. is enough to tell you abt my music taste.
Post No. 761: kya maara……. mazaa aagaya….
The spectrum where you cannot compare the two singers does exist – but it is a minority IMO. The spectrum of Kishore Kumar’s fun personality in songs like Chai Pe Bulaya (hence the immense popuarlity) cannot be compared with because it is a unique. However, this spectrum is indeed the minority – for the rest comparisons can be made. Melody in the voice, range, voice quality in all kinds of songs, what the singers rendred, etc. You are correct about compositions – but remember that singers are chosen based on compositions. Kishore & Rafi were both around in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Compositions were given to Rafi and not Kishore because MDs felt they were suited better for Rafi. Hence the composition discrimnation is a result of the abilities of singers!
Dear All,
It is good that u guys are discussing about a lot of music. But we can nevr compare singers at this level wen it coms to Rafi,Kishore or Talat. The thing is tht evry one has different choice and diff taste of music. I also depends a lot on the composition as well. You cannot some times compare songs on th basis of voice but compostion. So give a litl thought wen u compare or praise or critisize singers for nothing.
Thnanks,
Sumit
Ashu: ” I know now u will write abt my mistake on “HUMJOLI”
I will not.. That’s a pardonable minor mistake compared to a bigger blunder-not being able to appreciate Rafi.
KISHORE’S GREATNESS:
A fan of Kishore once told him “Aap to Rafi ka chhutti kar diya”. Kishore Kumar slapped the guy so hard that he went mad and started talking nonsense after that.
I confirmed that the fan’s name was Ashu.
Manish wrote: “I also think that Rafi could change his base at will. I was the one that started talking about LOUD, BOOMING, RESOUNDING etc”
Thanks for mentioning this.
-I have cited two examples from the movie Ladies Talior.
-In Badaltey Rishtey, Kishore sang for Rishi Kapoor for the greater part of the movie. Rafi was left with a solo (apart from part of “Na janey kaise”) i.e. Woh woh na rahen. It was amazing that Rafi completely delivered a full-throated, deep song in “Woh woh na rahen”. If you listen to “Woh woh na rahen” and the portion of “Na janey kaise” for Jeetendra, you will almost find two different singers!
Monty, Do you have link to kk version of “Mann re too kahe na dhir dhare”? Please post the link here if possible. Thx.
Listen to these Rafi songs…
1> Zindabaad (Mughl-e azam)
2> Mohubat zinda raheti hai (Chengez Khan)
He is full throated at very high scale and maintaining melody and sweeetness at the same time. Most of the singers shout and sounds loud on high scale but Rafi is just awesome.. I salute him. I think there is no comparison.
Manish Kumar, You said exactly I wanted to say in a much better way. Thank you.
Ashu, Quality does not mean popularity. In this case Himesh nasal Reshmiya is singing only quality songs! Think about it.
Ashu,
You often talk about low quality songs from Rafi. Look at it from this simplified angle: Kishore’s MDs were SD Burman, RD Burman, SOME LP, KA, Rajesh Roshan, and Bappi. Rafi’s MDs were Shankar Jaikishan, Roshan, Madan Mohan, SD Burman, Naushad, Chitragupta, OP Nayyar, Laxmikant Pyarelal, Ravi, OK let’s just stop there. SD Burman & LP extensively used both. I think Rafi had ~100 with SDB, Kishore had ~120.
I say SJ & RDB cancel each other ought – to be rough & simple. Now you have left Bappi – do you honestly think Bappi provides better QUALITY than Roshan, Madan Mohan, Chitragupta, OP Nayyar? I think that is a very obvious question in the favor of the latter. Music Directors & Singers represent one another as they are linked – and Rafi wins handily for me. If you think Rafi gave poor quality songs -then you are questioning the judgments of those dozens of elite music directors from the Golden Period of HFM. Let’s see it from this simple angle ? Thoughts please.
Ashu – it is silly if you compare Kishore & Rafi for QAWWALIES, BHAJANS, PATRIOTIC. Kishore himself admitted that in his live concert with Lata, they had to replace a song with a Bhajan, and he couldn’t remember any that he sang! Qawwalis? Kishore openly referred them to Rafi as he felt Rafi was better suited! You bias is beyond the reasonable bounds of subjectivity if you’re going to suggest KK was better suited for those three categories – even devout KK fans would disagree. But you know what – this is NOT necessary to argue – because all that matters for KK is what he did well – and he did a lot of things well – but these categories are not the ones to pick when arguing his accomplishments (what he ACTUALLY did).
lol by SANG TOGETHER I mean both are singing the same line at the same timme – KK fans would have a good laugh on the way i unclearly phrased myself.
btw ashu..i have all 70 kk-rafi duets…will eventually do a review…although as P Haldar mentioned…songs like Chal Shuru Ho Jaa aren’t exactly the song to measure ability
Sudip,
You and I had the first discussion with regards to Mere Dildar Baankh Pan. Upon retrospect, I think deciding who sang better in that particular song is pointless because it was pretty close. I would say the same for Chupke Chupke duet, although IMO Kishore was given the dominant portion. By dominant I don’t mean louder (although if you see the picturization, something SDB was always big about, Amitabh goes to Sharmila and sings loud all of a sudden whereas Dharmendra just plays along). I’ve met some Kishore Kumar fans who said they preferred Rafi in Jaanu Meri Jaan (no Ashu, I’m not trying to imply that KK fans conceded or anything – just giving a single example). All three of these songs (especially Jaanu Meri Jaan) are very close to the point of subjectivity. Not worth debating.
As for Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara – Rafi clearly won. His voice was smoother, more melodious, and he expressed the emotions much better in that song. I could deciper this as a 5 year old when I didn’t know who Rafi or Kishore was (so don’t accuse me of being biased there 🙂 . I can see KK fans feeling 180 on this but I firmly hold my belief on this song – which was a childhood favorite. I will say the same for the sad version of that song and for Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe although it isn’t nearly as apparent as it is in Dostana.
I also think that Rafi could change his base at will. I was the one that started talking about LOUD, BOOMING, RESOUNDING etc ( to give life to debate). While this is still true, I overlooked that Rafi could change his bass at will too. In the end of Tum Nahin Ya Hum Nahin when Rafi says “To Jalti Aag Hoon Main” – see how FULL his voice is in the word Aag. It is so full & thick that no barritone can overshadow it. In the song Chor Sipahee – once again, see how Rafi starts the song with such a FULL voice. It is true that Rafi’s voice was drowned in Pehli Nazar Mein (Burning Train) but I attribute that to the MD RD Burman. If one doesn’t agree, then see the portions of Dostana where Rafi & Kishore sing together – you hear both voices. I remember counting AT LEAST 5 other songs where BOTH voices were CLEARLY PRESENT when they sang together (I’ll have to to a review of that some time). The idea is to show that even in songs they sang together, Rafi was very capable of holding his ground in terms of TONAL QUALITY (precisely what I had argued against a long time ago just to stir the debate). It wasn’t always as BARRITONEY as Kishore’s (I’m glad too) – but it didn’t need to be to hold its ground in the duets. These two together have the most duets than any other male pair – they’re voices matched with one another very well, as you have suggested.
Anyway, just felt like sharing that 🙂
Monty,
Please be a bit more respectful of Kishore Kumar. You know very well why he sang that song. As a sincere tribute to his friend. There are lots of Kishore Kumar fans who enjoyed that song due the Kishore’s inherent, golden voice. That song does illustrate an aspect of apples & oranges.
Kishore expresses the emotions very well IMO, he has a golden voice, but he didn’t sing it TECHNICALLY perfect (and I think the composition demanded that). So some people who also want technical perfection will not prefer Kishore (this is certainly not to say that Rafi didn’t have A LOT MORE than just technical perfection – he did e.g. magic, voice quality, emotions, you name it). But there are a lot of people who are willing to overlook that aspect and fall for Kishore’s brilliant personality.
Let’s not make comparisons on this song. Kishore’s tribute was heartily appreciated.
I with my friends in UK heard how Kishore tried to sing “Man re tu kahena…” and couldn’t stop laughing! KK no way to Rafiji.
Sudip:
u wrote:
No one including Kishore challenged the supremacy of the Mangeshkars. Unfortunately Rafi did (Royalty issue, OP Nayyar issue, dispute on Guiness book record, disagreement on songs, etc)..
My reply.
There would not be any challenge between female and male voice. So i don’t agree to challenging the supermacy of the mangeshkar. I think u don’t have correct information. Rafi did not challenge Lata’s supermacy. I saw Lata’s interview taken by SONU nigam. She said due to provocation one singer (she did not name) Rafi had difference with Lata. It doesn’t mean that he challenge her supermacy, samething happen with RajKapoor. She denied to sing for Raj Kapoor for same issue (Royalty issue).
So mere dost, Pls. refresh ur knowledge before writing something.
I know now u will write abt my mistake on “HUMJOLI”…Yes it was my mistake due to word HUMJOLI and actor Jeetendra being part of both movie.