An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Vipul,
I can’t see my last detail mail on Kishore’s devotional songs.
Kishore sang many filmi devotional songs under Rajesh Roshan and LP composition. Check the DB.
Abt Rehman, Rehman is most hyped MD of today. He concentrate more on sound than melody.
Listen few of his hit songs:
1. Pathsaala
2. Fanna from Yuva (i can’t understand lyrics)
3. all songs from Nayak
All above songs are c grade songs.
I think Jatin-Lalit was great MD of newer generation, but sad thing is that they are now seperated.
He copied couple of his tunes in Sivaji (Tamil) form Dil Se….
Vipul,
I write samething to you, becauase you question/doubt samething again anad again.
Ashu Sir
I admire your spirited defence of Kishoreda.You are the most formidable opponent we the fans of Rafi have on this forum.I am glad that you watched K4K on the 19th.In Asha’s own words the show was trashy.My point from the beginning has been: what purpose do such shows serve? They further spoil the already degenerated tastes of the people who watch them.
Anyway,Asha is often cited by Kishore fans to boost the latter’s position vis-a-vis Rafi.Whenever I have heard Asha I have found her lacking in sophistication.Whatever be her credentials as a singer,her assertions often border on the ridiculous.And her effusions on the 19th were no exception.
Asha said:Kishore jaisa bara singer hazaar saal mein nahin hua.Aur Lata jaisa.
My question:I would like my ignorance of films and music to be dispelled by being told the names of films and singers from 11th to 19th centuries.My severely limited knowledge of film music is confined only to the 20th century.
Or was Asha just talking for our amusement?
Another amusing thing that Asha said was:Kishore is liye sabse barey singer the kyonki veh hamesha sur mein gaate the.
My question is: If the criterion of sab se bara singer is haemesha sur mein gaana,then what about Saigal?Or Talat and Manna De.( I am not putting forward Rafi for the Mangeshkar sisters feel insecure with him).Kishore himself acknowledged Manna De’s superiority to him in the matter of sur.Talking about the song:koi hum dum na raha koi sahara na raha,Ashok Kumar, who himself had sung this song before Kishore sang it,said that Kishore had no knowledge of sur.
Or was Asha just kidding?
Ashu,I quoted Lata only to show that Rafi is such a great singer that even those who have pronounced antipathy to him for personal reasons can’t escape the spell of his music.Lata’s praise of Kishore is obviously motivated and partisan.Song for song Lata has sung like Rafi and not Kishore.Her repertoire matches Rafi’s and not Kishore’s.Though demonstrably she is not Rafi’s equal.She is deficient both in treble and bass whereas Rafi soars effortlessly.The reason for the sisters’ denigration of Rafi is that once Rafi is out of reckoning,there is nobody to challenge them for the top slot.
Vipul
You say that Kishore had no connection with gazal.
Do you mean that he was an imperfect singer?
Kishore had no connection with classical singing.He has sung nothing like Madhuban mein Radhika naache.
Does that mean that he was just a singer for the hoi ploi,for the front benchers?
Vipul,what about:Hum bekhudi mein tum ko pukare chale gaye?Something beyond the capabilities of Kishore.
I can’t understand the Kishore fans who wish to place on the highest musical pedestal a man who contributed nothing to some of the finest aspects of music.
Kishore is often lauded for his manly,resounding voice.Yes,indeed!He is just a male version of Shamshad Begum.
Vipul,
Pls. mention top 10 melidious songs from Rahman….He is MD who concentrate on sound than melody. I canhardly hear singer’s voice in his composition..
Great composition
– Pathasala
– rang de basanti
– Fanaa (Yava…Still i don;t understand lyrics)
If above songs are great, then i am sorry. I think Jatin-Lalit was great composer in today, and sad thing that they are not together now.
Vipul mere dost,
There are many devotional song sung by Kishore..Pls. check the DB..He sang under RDB and LP composition.
Regarding patriotic, in hindi i can remmeber only “Aakraman” song whihc is great.
And one more, Singing more songs doesn’t mean singer is great….
Again and again, u r coming back to square:
u wrote:
I wonder RDB being KK loyalist didn’t choose him. Similarly LP use Mahendra Kapoor in Avtar for Rajesh Khanna in a devotional number. kk is just not comfortable with devotional songs.
My reply:
Many times i replied to such silly doubt..
You are eager to know that Kishore was not comfortable with devotional songs :),
Can you answer why LP asked Kishore to sing “TUM KO BHI TO AISA HI KUCHH” from AABA, and why LP asked kishore to sing “Mere naseed me ae dost tera pya rnahi” though all songs were sung by Rafi.
If you can find answer pls. let me know.
Boss, let’s talk on songs or composition delivered by Kishore and Rafi. Lata hardly sang disco songs, does it mean she could not sing disco songs.
There is no doubt about the fact that Rafi was a prolific singer who lent his voice not only to leading actors of the 50s and 60s, but also did playback singing for established singers. When Kishore Kumar went off key recording Ajab hai dastaan teri ay zindagi for Shararat, Shankar Jaikishan summoned Rafi to lend his voice for Kishore Kumar.
Besides Kishore Kumar, Talat Mahmood used Rafi’s voice for the Lala Rukh number Hai kali kali ke lab par teray husan ka fasana. Neither Talat nor Kishore objected to Rafi’s voice being used for them— such was the virtuosity of Rafi. This speaks volumes for their on-mike camaraderie.
link given below…
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040808/mailbag.htm
Correction:
In the second paragraph of my last post, the sentence should read as:
“and this domination period includes the 1977-80 period”.
Vipul,
Here are the Rafi-KK output stats from 1969 to 1972. These figures are as per the HFM Geet Kosh:
1969: Rafi – 194, KK – 20
1970: Rafi – 131, KK – 47
1971: Rafi – 131, KK – 102
1972: Rafi – 95, KK – 137
After 1972, KK took over in terms of number of songs, and Rafi leaving the country, and cutting down on his work had a lot to do with that. From 1972-76, the difference in Rafi and KK output isn’t that much, and then from 1977-80, Rafi has sung more songs than Kishore (in total). So it is definitely a myth that KK ruled from 69 onwards, his peak periods were 72-76 for various reasons and even then Rafi wasn’t far behind, he was right there.
Also in this ‘so called’ KK 70’s rule period, Rafi won the Filmfare and National Award vis a vis RDB in 1977 besides winning other awards such as in 1974 for “Teri Galiyon Mein Na” from Hawas. He was also nominated for many awards as well. Mukesh also won a few awards, and Mahendra Kapoor even won an award as well. This all happened in the ‘so called’ KK decade. When Rafi dominated the industry, no one even came close to him, and thid domination period included the 1977-80 period. In 1972-76, Rafi cut down on his own singing, which is why the stats show his output decreased in those years, but the media highlighted it as Rafi was gone when he never left. Check out the period 1979-81 on the BGM, very little of Kishore, and mostly all Rafi. Those who were present during that time and followed the BGM trends will know this, its a fact. Rafi’s songs were very popular in the 70’s on BGM and elsewhere, as were songs from other singers, along with KK songs. Rafi’s popularity in the 70’s in general was the same as previous decades, and no one could also reach him in this aspect as well.
The examples given by KK fans of Kishore songs in various other genres is a joke, and not up to the mark, because KK didn’t have any real quality qawwali’s, ghazals, geets, bhajans, etc. There is no comparison between Rafi and KK, Rafi is miles ahead, the more KK fans try and defend him, the worse it gets. KK himself acknowledged Rafi as the greatest, but his fans think something else.
It is also a myth that after Teen Devian KK challenged for the number 1 spot. Truth is he was, as expected, no where during that time. Look at KK’s stats from 1965-1968 in terms of songs (as per HFM Geet Kosh):
1965: 16
1966: 8
1967: 11
1968: 22
If you call this challenging for the number 1 spot, then may the truth come to you in the future. Please do not fabricate facts, and please do not compare apples and oranges, KK or any singer doesn’t even come close to Rafi.
It’s also a fact that the majority of artists, musicians, MD’s etc. consider Rafi as the greatest. A few comments here and there from others won’t make a difference. We can’t count Asha, because it is her agenda to promote RD and in the process she also ignores Rafi and only mentions KK.
Also, RD composed better for Rafi from 1977-80 then he did for KK (imo). Rajesh Roshan was KK’s best composer from 1975 onwards, and not RD, and RR also was one of Rafi’s best latter day composers as well.
Songs sang by Rafi and picturized on Rajesh Khanna were a result of incapability of kishore to sing them. Example – “Ekna To Yaad Hai”, “Yeh Jo Chilman Hai”, “Ann Milo Sajnaa”, etc.
Manna Dey himself has acknowledged that Rafi was not basically a classical singer, but had the capability to sing any type of classical song. Rafi was trained by renowed Ustads and Pandits.
I have been listening to Rafi for last 23 years. I have listened to Kishore also. Rafi has sang for maximum number of music composers. It is not the question of high pitch only, but also the control of the voice. Songs “O Duniya a Rakhwale”, “Mann Tadpat Hari”, “Madhubhan Mein Radhika”, “Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho”, etc. speak of voice modulation with great control.
Coming to Kishore, he survived because of S D Burman(Dada), because in the 1950s and 60s only Dada had the right musical notes for his voice. Without Dada Kishore could have been wiped out long back. Kishore sang remarkable numbers under the Burmans & LP.
Kishore needs a very good tune to excel. In case of Rafi what ever the tune may be his voice will do magic.
If Kishore was such a great singer, then majority songs should have been sang by him after Rafi death in 1980. In the 80s music composers felt the need to Rafi so much that even a singer like Mahendra Kapoor was also not considered, though he could match Rafi’s pitch very well. Singers like Anwar, Shabir Kumar and Munna Aziz got break through. Just imagine new comers competing with Kishore Kumar. One can imagine where Kishore stands.
Media has tried to promote that Kishore Kumar over Rafi in the 70s. But after Rafi’s death his absence has proved how great a singer he was.
Hello friends,
I am a perfect fan of the certainly great kishore kumar. The songs which our kishore da has sung with mohd. rafi such as bane chahe dushman jamana hamara and yadoon ki barat etc. ; kishore da has a definite edge over rafi. I have repeated this message many times in mohd. rafi. com. In fact, the administrator there has stopped posting my messages due to my supporting of kishore kumar. Many times i have argued that kishore da is the best than mohd. rafi. Everybody knows kishore was selected the best playback singer in aradhana and many times thereafter when rafi was still there. Still rafi fans argue about rafi without paying heed to my above message. It is but for sure kishore rose from aradhana and continued to eclipse rafi and was the greatest singer in bollywood till he left this earth. Rafi was below kishorekumar from aradhana onwards.
More so rafians, rafi not only falls behind rafi, but you will also note that he is also not better than another great legend, which you will come to know from my wonderful presentation made hereunder.
My dear kishore fans and dearest friends,
As true music lovers, i would also like to introduce here the greatest south indian playback legend from telugu i.e shri ghantasala venkateshwara rao, I have heard his few songs and i personally feel his voice is a perfect divine and melodious voice and undoubtedly one of the greatest voices in playback singing which our country has produced. I was mesmerised by this legend from the south, as it reminded me my favourite kishore kumar’s talent and presentation.
One rafi fan himself writes in mohd. rafi. com. I am reproducing his comments here. I request my friends to give a patient reading and to kindly have a opportunity to hear shri ghantasala, the greatest playback legend from the south and enjoy his mellifluous voice as true music lovers.
comments by sri rakesh malhotra, a rafi fan on mohd. rafi.com
Third, and possibly most amazing, I heard the Shiva Shankari song posted (hereunder) after reading Khan saahab’s raving review of Ghantasala ji, and man, am I lucky I decided to visit this website today. – (khan sahab is a seasoned hindustani musician who reveiwed shri ghantasala ji’s talent and found him to be the best singer)
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is he (ghantasala ji) for real?!! And, how come I haven’t heard of him until today?! He (ghantasala ji) has the perfect combination of voice and technical ability — the latter (ghantasala ji) is simply out of this world, the modulation, the control, the pitch he reaches. WOW!!!
Anyone out there who hasn’t heard him yet — please listen to:
shiva shankari song from telugu posted here and sung by shri ghantasala:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M3hCRAQ2yJg
I guarantee – you will be amazed. After listening to this, I listened to songs sung by both Rafi saahab and Ghantasala ji, and I must say Ghantasala ji easily eclipses him mohd. rafi in all of them. Suvarna Sundari (kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya in hindi )aur Chal Ud Ja Re Pancchi.
Here are the links for the above two songs sung by ghantasala ji in telugu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ (the telugu suvarna sundari song which was first sung in telugu by ghantasala ji)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc (chal ud ja re panchi in telugu sung by ghantasala ji – first sung by mohd. rafi)
that is the message from rafi fan.
Raj continues,
Friends, Our rafi fan is right regarding shri ghantasala, I have heard him and you all will be also will be amazed after hearing the divine voice of this legend from south. This information is only for true music lovers.
Rafians,
So, mohd. rafi is only after these great singers – ghantasala ji and kishore kumar.
KK Fan:
Sure Kishore is more versatile.. Not only did he know acting and comedy, he also knew how to evade income taxes and just evade Madhubala in her death bed once he had “extracted” all her juice…Don’t make us open our mouth..For your reference: http://specials.rediff.com/movies/2008/mar/25sd5.htm
Ashu: Who told you Shreya’s favorite was Kishore? She did not even mention KK in her interview (unfortunately it is Bengali Anandalok; I am trying to get an English version of the interview). She said Rafi and Rafi only..
Go through the list of the judges of the Outlook India poll, remove the obvious KK followers and Rafi followers, and you will figure out the way people like Shreya voted!
We are KK fans:
Our arguments for KK are:
He Yodels
He is a great comedian
He was RD Burman’s favourite
He lacks classical training
We are happy that he does not get National Award
He has one semi classical song, one patriotic, and one devotional, so he can sing every type of songs.
He can shout in sur Chak Chik Cha Cha Cha Cha.
Kishore da ki jai ho!
Our questions:
Can Rafi do comedy?
How many films he has acted in?
Can he yodel?
Can he shout in sur?
Was he loud?
Was he RD Burman’s favourite?
Has he ever said Chak Chik Cha Cha Cha Cha?
Kishore da ki jai ho!
Your Rafi knows only singing. That’s all. Kishore da knows many things. A real Jack!
Kishore da ki jai ho!
KK and devotional songs, patriotic songs
———————————————–
I think KK has sung 0 devotional songs. I recall a film Dard-Ka-Rishta in which there are KK songs with Music Director RD Burman. There is one devotionsal song on Ganpati Visargan which is sung by Hari-Haran. I wonder RDB being KK loyalist didn’t choose him. Similarly LP use Mahendra Kapoor in Avtar for Rajesh Khanna in a devotional number. kk is just not comfortable with devotional songs.
The patriotic scong by kk in Akraman is Good. But a patriotic song sung at low pitch doesn’t sound very appealling. This is perhaps Rafi’s and Mehendra’s area, since both can stay at very high range of singing for a longer time. In short, kk’s voice is not suitable for devotional songs and patriotic songs… oe please mention more songs of kk on desh bhakti to enhance my knowledge… I need to learn from you more and more…
Ashu, Correct me if I am wrong. 🙂
Please also find out how many songs were sung by Rafi and kk from 1969 till 1972 as I am not sure. You can enhance my knowledge here too. I have to learn more and more from everyone.
About A R. Rahman…
Someone mentioned that his tunes are all the same. I think he is the best MD of today. He is very original. He does not copy. In fact, I fell in this aspect he is even better than RD.
Remember How RD was inspired by western tunes, He is used to copy the whole tune and then his fans will say that RD was just inspired. I feeling copying the tune is true inspiration.
Ashu Wrote:
“2 mahine se ek his dhun baja rahe ho….Jara dhun change karo: Itni bar fact batane par bhi aadat nahi chhod rahe ho”
Dear Ashu.. fact is Rafi is more versatile than kk and you also know that…
My post was not meant for u dear. If you do not like my facts, please ignore them. And you kind of do the sanme thing right! … Writing the same thing againa and again… and then telling others not to repeat! (pure double standard) But I have no problems with your posts…
Please go thru your post u wrote to me and you will realise that u mentioned same thing before… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Dhani Ram, I have heard the ghazal you are talking about… “Gazab kiya… tere wade pe.. Tamam raat qyamat ka intzaar kiya”…
Rafi was excellent in ghazals unlike KK. I mean KK and Ghazal has no connection at all.
Manish Kumar and other Rafians:
Here is a link:
http://entertainment.oneindia.in/music/news/lata-mangeshkar-music-030707.html
Lata said:
While speaking about other yesteryear artists, Lataji liked Kishore Kumar the best. While she feels that singers like Mohd. Rafi and Mukesh were good in most of their songs, Kishore Kumar was good in every song. Kishore Kumar’s sad songs have been her favourite and she rates the romantic songs she has sung with Mohd. Rafi as amongst her best.
Now, What i observed from Sudip, Vipul, VIkram and DHani Ram comments that, if Lata said something good abt Kishore then she is biased or she twisted her comments as Rafians cliamed. But if Rafians said something wrong abt Kishore then they are right. 🙂
dear vipul ,
2 mahine se ek his dhun baja rahe ho….Jara dhun change karo: Itni bar fact batane par bhi aadat nahi chhod rahe ho….
u wrote:
Interms of versatility, Rafi was miles ahead… KK is nowhere in the picture (forget about no 2) . Rafi has sung almost all types of songs with equal ease and perfection. Check the database and you will know where kk stands…
my reply:
What do you mean all types of songs? Is it Qawaali, ghazal, geet, mujra etc? Does it show greatness if singer sing all types of songs as mentioned above. If is it so, then BHUPINDER is another best after Rafi. 🙂
I believe i already shared Kishore’s songs for all above categories 2 months ago.
What do you mean “Equal ease”? Pls. listen “YAAD NA JAAYE BITE DINO KI”
It was one of my fav; songs sung by Rafi, but suddenly i started diliking this songs. Reason is, word like “YAAD”, “JAAYE”…Many times it felt like “khar khar” voice (somebody has tighten his throat with handkerchief).
u wrote:
and it is also a myth that KK was number 1 from 1969 onwards. He became hit and popular after 1969 for sure. but Rafi was ruling playback singing till 1972. I am not very sure on his but again I feel Rafi was marginally ahead of kk till about 72. Sudip and Dhaniram can throw more light on this topic.
my reply:
It might be myth for u rafians, but it is a fact that Kishore ruled industry from 69, though he inclined toward no. 1 after TEEN DEVIYAAN and slowly he eclised Rafi in 69.
Why are you asking SUDIP and DHANI RAM to throw more light, is it because they can extend ur thought 🙂
Kishore was Kishore….no any comparision!! He came from Heaven and went there again…..
Actor, writer, director, musician, comedian, singer and a true nature lover…
What a person!!
Great!!
DhaniRamji,
Kishore Kumar’s clone are worthless, because nobody can become Kishore as Asha clearly told in that episode:
u wrote:
Raj Sahib,Lataji has this to say about the greatest ever Indian singer:Rafi sahib bahut surila gate the.Veh har tarah ke geet gate the.Un jaisa gayak baar baar paida nahin hota.Maine sab se ziada duets unke saath gaye
My reply:
Lata was 100% correct, Rafi was great singer and definetely was SURILA, but she never said Rafi was best among best, but Asha openely accepted that Lata and Kishore are best. I hope everyone knows what Lata said abt Kishore. 🙂
Sudip..Mere dost.
I hope you must aware of singer name “ALKA YAGNIK” , “SHREYA GHOSAL”. They openely accepted that Kishore was best among male singer. Even Alka said, she (and her entire family) used to listen only Lata and Kishore in her free time.
Abt Rahman, he is hyped MD. All his tunes are same, he prefer to sing in high pitch like Rafi. So i am not surprised at all.
But i must say, i respect Rahman’s view.
Rahman makes special note of Rafi:
http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=75272
He then mentioned the names of some fine performers and singers like SP Balasubramaniam, KS Chitra and Lata Mangeshkar. The names of these artists along with the legend of hindi music industry Mohammed Rafi needs to be etched on a marble in golden letters for generations to remember them for their contribution in the field of music he added.
ab sahib
Don’t scold my friend Vipul.Did you watch that blot on the name music on 19th? Five picked so called Kishore clones performed and Ashaji found them worthless.Will you advise Ashaji toop to keep away from such rubbish?
Raj Sahib,Lataji has this to say about the greatest ever Indian singer:Rafi sahib bahut surila gate the.Veh har tarah ke geet gate the.Un jaisa gayak baar baar paida nahin hota.Maine sab se ziada duets unke saath gaye.This from a rival singer who tried to let Rafi down speaks for the latter’s supremacy.
Those who have heard Rafi’s non-film gazal and Jagjit Singh’s glowing tribute to it please raise their hands:Gazab kiya tere waide pe aitbaar kiya.Rafi was not only the greatest film singer,he was also a very great singer of non-film gazals as well.
Dear Anil,
I think many people have said before but I would repeat.
Rafi ruled Hindi playback singing for more years than KK. Check the history…
I agree with your songs like Aanewala pal, Yeh Jeevan hai etc that KK was wonderful. But there are many Rafi songs to counter those songs of kk.
Interms of versatility, Rafi was miles ahead… KK is nowhere in the picture (forget about no 2) . Rafi has sung almost all types of songs with equal ease and perfection. Check the database and you will know where kk stands…
and it is also a myth that KK was number 1 from 1969 onwards. He became hit and popular after 1969 for sure. but Rafi was ruling playback singing till 1972. I am not very sure on his but again I feel Rafi was marginally ahead of kk till about 72. Sudip and Dhaniram can throw more light on this topic.
Kishore was great and at his true best in soft and sad songs.
one can’t imagine Yeh JEEVAN HAI, KAB tak andhere( rajesh roshan compsition, the song is carried by simply voice there was liitlebackground music, no singer has done it!), Aanewala pal, Zindagi ka safar . chhokar mere manko kiya . moreover if you are not carried away from the complex of classical singing you will notice that hume tumse pyar kitana by kishore is more effective than parveen sultana sheerely by emotions put in the song.
It is amyth that rafi made comeback as top in eighties. his songs were more in 1980 in binaca but that is because of Amitkumar shared some numbers of kishore courtosy RDB.
Moreover the best songs in 1977 to 1980 were composed by rajesh roshan , rdb and their best compositions ( Rimzim gire sawan ) are sung by kishore and always this was the case .Occassionally RDB used Rafi for the khoya khoyaa chand versions!. in abdulla best song was not Maine pucha chandse but Ae khuda her faisala tera muze manjjor hai a sad song sung by kishore.
Kishore as regarded as top due to his vice quality which reflevted in songs like KABtak andhere Manko and JEEvanse na har jeenawale imosiible to ever imagine in any other voce.
there were some qualities of Lata and asha in kishore’s voce and exactly complimentary copies from latrta and asha reflected in rafi’s voice.RDB realized it late.
Kishore kumar is a great singer. Indeed bollywood is fortunate enough to possess such a great singer. I personally feel and enjoy his songs. I am a telugu person, but a firm lover of songs of bollywood singers mainly kishore kumar and mohd. rafi who are greatest singers in Hindi along with my favourite singer in telugu, ghantasala venkateshwara rao, a classical telugu playback legend in the south.
Vipul,
If you don’t like K4K just don’t watch it! It really doesn’t matter if all the rafi fans doesn’t watch K4K 🙂
Raj,
Often when a stalwart makes a comment to the press, he or she does not say it with the intent to be accounted for every word. Good example would be from Mannade. One interview he’ll say Rafi is the best and another interview he’ll say Kishore is best. We’ve seen both interviews of that. In some interviews, Lata has mentioned only Rafi and sometimes Kishore. On a given interview, Lata will mention a different set of composers as her favorites. Interviews on pleasant topics like this i.e. your favorite co-singers, are a light, fun matter for someone like Lata. It isn’t a serious task like recording a song or answering allegations about a monopoly. Sure you have exceptions like Anil Biswas who remains consistent with his remarks.
Less importantly, I notice the interview was paraphrased – there was no direct quote. Often I have seen paraphrasers or translaters give a very different impression from the original. SD Burman’s interview for Dev Anand & Kishore is a good example.
Hindi: par Kishore ke siwaaye sirf Rafi hii kii aawaaz Dev ke liye yogya thii.
English: Kishore was the perfect choice for Dev Anand; no other male singer, except Rafi to a limited extent, suited Dev.
Notice how the uncharitable phrase “limited extent” pops in.
I give the highest value to the opinions of each and every one of the dedicated music lovers that we have here. Just listen to the music, make your choice, and clarify your perspective.
Vikram, very well said…
When Lata refused to sing with Rafi. she was at loss and Suman Kalyanpur came in. She realised it soon and soon patched up with Rafi…
Most of the MD’s sacrificed Lata but did not compromise on Rafi…. It tells us a lot….
Ashu, I repeat… K for KK is one of the worst music programs. (not bcos of KK but bcos of kind of participants and judges) I am not complaining but telling u the fact. If you have problem with my comment then stop reading them… and do not complain 🙂
Major but funny goof-up…
—————————
Before Ashu starts crying hoarse that I am impersonating Piyush, he is my cousin visiting me in the Bay area. He is lot younger (26), studies MBA in the East coast. And just like me a Rafi fan (he likes Yesudas big time, as well). He is following the debate and has been using the same bedroom computer and his name was cached..
That was actually me (Sudip)..
BTW, the Lata interview is self-contradictory.. On one hand she says “these day’s people stress on rhythm a lot. We get influenced by western tunes” and then she goes on to praise the singer who sang them the most! Weird..
great….. now you are telling me that you all have a greater knowledge of music than lata mangeshkar, and know the inner psyche of lata. What you all just said was that she at age such an age has an agenda with a person who is already dead, and will manipulate statements in the media, to bring that man down for a few rupees she didnt coz of royalty issues in the 1960’s….. WOW that is a huge chip to keep on your shoulder…….LOL i think the only people carrying a chip on their shoulders are you lot and not lata mangeshkar. LOL at vikram “lata and rafi were at WAR” you lot are hilarious, and also about that statement of lata and asha not being to handle that rafi was far superior to them…….. they are female singers, they competed in a different competition to male singers in awards, they have less testosterone and are biologically different to men. Men and women always have different categories to compete in, there is no mixed therefore i never compare asha or lata to rafi or kishore
Hi ,
I find people fighting in every forum. Please stop fighting. Artists are God’s special creation. Accept them with their strengh and weekness.
Music is like food. Every person has different choice of food same think applies to music. All singers are great their own way.
Many people blame artists for their behaviour. Do they think themselves as pure sole ? Observer their behaviour in Train , in Ques or in public places. Selfishness surface everywhere in their behaviour.
God has given every artist whatever he or she is deserved.
So stop fighting and start enjoying music !!!
dear sudip,
u wrote:
But my bigger problem with Kishore is the singularity in approach. The approach to “Changari koi bhadke” and “Salam-e-Ishq” is similar, though the moods and genres are entirely different.. Same tone, same taan, same embellishments, a few deliberate falsettos here and there
FYI: This was not singularity approach. I surprised to read ur view on above 2 songs. This is completely wrong.
Problem with Rafi, he always tried to sing song in high pitch which was not good always. If you think that is best then i am sorry.
Pls. see “K for Kishore” Asha Bhosle will be part of this show from today. Pls. watch and analyse her comment on Kishore. I think She is right person to judge her contemporary singers, i think she is more knowledge than u and me.
Vipul, U wrote, K for Kishore is worst program :). Pls. don’t watch and don’t complain.
Raj,
we don’t care much about lata’s & asha’s comment, as they both were playing games against rafi right from the 60s, rafi is the greatest…
naushad termed rafi as greatest, and so the all others like sj,sdb, mm, opn, illaya raja, yesudas,manna dey,spb and lots of other great music personalities consider rafi as the best…
with due respect to kishore and all others, rafi is the finest we ever had…
Raj and AB,
Lata and Asha are two sore losers. They could never come to terms with the fact that there was a singer who was way better then them. They always gave Kishore Kumar a run for his money in the duets that they sang with him. But when it came to Rafi, he completely overshadowed them. The duets that Rafi sang with Asha and Lata are identified with him. Lata had a royalty issue with Rafi in the 60’s. He refused to be drawn into her rat race for money. She stopped singing with him for three years. Anyway, it was her loss. Most of the music directors used other female singers alonside Rafi for their compositions, Asha included. Asha sang lots of duets with Rafi during this period. What does it tell us about her loyalities? On one hand her sister was at war with Rafi and on the other she was taking full advantage of the situation. Asha has always been opportunistic. She doesn’t even mention OP Nayyar in her interviews, the man who made her. In fact, she was not on good terms with RD Burman later in his life, the man who sustained her career.
Kishore Kumar was no doubt a rare talent, but when compared with Rafi-he comes second best.
Raj:
No one is saying Lata has a personal agenda. But it is an opinion and a well-respected opinion. So are opinions of Manna De, Hemant Kumar, Talat, Mukesh, Laxmikant, Pyarelal, A R Rahman, Yesudas, SP Balasubramaniam, Ismail Durbar, Anu Malik, Sreya Ghosal, Sonu Nigam, Naushad, Khayyam, OP Nayyar, Anup Jalota, Santanu Moitra, Jaikishan, Roshan, SD Burman, Madan Mohan and scores of others who have mentioned Rafi as their favorite in public (I am sure Kishore and Mukesh have their followers as well; Anil Biswas preferred Talat). But everytime a jury has been asked to vote collectively, the honor went to Rafi..
Your logic has circular fallacy. Because if the opinion of the best is the one that only counts, Saigal is the all-time best because your all-time best considered Saigal as his guru.
There is no end to an anecdotal argument. Lets talk music.
The Mangeshkar sister twist statements as per the situation. It is well known fact. In one the interviews she even mention that “Mukesh was a good classical singer, music composers should have given him classical songs to sing”. The fact remains that they never liked any one superior to them.
Ravindra Jain once mentioned Lata Ji didn’t like me promoting new singers.
Ok, i know everone has their own opinions on who is better, and each to their own, but lets face it, we don’t know as much about singing as kishore or rafi does, so the judge of who is better should be the one and only lata mangeshkar…. in this following interview i have lata mangeshkar says : “While speaking about other yesteryear artists, Lataji liked Kishore Kumar the best. While she feels that singers like Mohd. Rafi and Mukesh were good in most of their songs, Kishore Kumar was good in every song. Kishore Kumar’s sad songs have been her favourite”
here is the link if you do not believe me
http://indiafm.com/features/2007/07/02/2825/index.html
this should stop the quarrelling, also if you say lata doesnt know what she is talking about or has some sort of personal agenda against rafi you sir are an IDIOT! (it’s lata mangeshkar the greatest singer india has ever produced, what does she have to prove?)
Dhani Ram wrote:”I had borrowed from a Kishore fan who also sat through Kishore session.At the end he also admitted that it was sheer headache to go through.”
Dhani.. I understand your point completely. I do not like Kishore’s approach to singing-there is no poignancy or mellow about it..Kishore’s fans would counter it by saying its masculine, but we are not judging WWF wrestlers, are we?
But my bigger problem with Kishore is the singularity in approach. The approach to “Changari koi bhadke” and “Salam-e-Ishq” is similar, though the moods and genres are entirely different.. Same tone, same taan, same embellishments, a few deliberate falsettos here and there. OK… For arguments sake lets accept Kishore’s voice was golden. Even gold when viewed repeatedly could get monotonous.
Talat was indeed poignant. But he never had Rafi’s depth and resonance..The ability to render an alap from the navel was not there.
Mukesh to me was bassy but limited. I love some of his songs..
AB wrote: “Let me ask you this.
Is there any intrinsic merit in making things difficult just for the
heck of it? In physics, for example, there are usually two approaches
to solving a problem – one is the time-tested brute force technique,
the domain of formidable tour de force’ers. The other is the intuitive
way, simpler in design but extremely elegant and almost always, profoundly
insightful.”
-Nice comment. For the first time a Kishore-fan has penned something substantial and of some literary merit. BUT………………
There is no intrinsic merit of choosing a difficult approach if it is indeed solving the SAME PROBLEM (“same problem” is the catch). But if the problems are indeed very different they cannot be approached the same way in the first place..A kindergarten Math cannot be compared with a Grade V Math and even if a kindergartener has got 100% he/she cannot be compared with a Fifth grader who has got 90%. It is simply not apples-to-apples….
Kishore’s natural ability to make things simple is commendable. And I love him for that. But stating that it makes him the greatest ever is a stretch, just as it is a stretch to regard Virender Sehwag the greatest batsman purely based on his natural ability to hit the ball out of the park..
Ok.. No more analogies .. Let us take the simplest benchmark-Lata M who is arguably the numero uno among female singers. Who do you think is Lata’s nearest male counterpart? If you say its Kishore, we have to admit that male contribution in Hindi playback singing is 50% that of the female. There are tons of genres where the male number one would not have any answer to the female one.. Take for example Lata’s haunting melodies. I do not think Kishore has anything that renders similar feelings or even close to those.
Now replace Kishore with Rafi in that comparison..Suddenly you can match every single female number- haunting, bhajan, ghazal, romantic, patriotic, thumris, peppy, Punjabi heer with a male counterpart.. Suddenly the male contribution does not look so pathetic and the Mangeshkar dominance diminishes..
Maybe your “Nauuughty girl” realizes that well! I would say “Wise girl” ;-)- someone who ditched OP Nayyar once the job was done!
AB: You mentioned “Recently we heard
Asha make a comment that Kishore was approx 1.5 times better than Rafi.”
When you quote someone, it is customary to provide a reference footnote. Just saying “Asha said so… ” tantamounts to misquote and forgery. I do not do not for a moment doubt Asha prefers Kishore (just as Manna, Hemanta, Talat, Mukesh preferred Rafi and we gave links to those references unlike you).
And about the “nauuughty girl”…She does not recognize OP who made her. How can you expect her to have an iota of respect for a saint like Rafi? She does not command my respect either..
Your argument centers around the great natural talent Kishore had and no one doubts it. You have showered all adjectives that we recently heard about Sehwag’s batting.. But saying Sehwag is the best batsman around is stretching it far…
JJ,
I have seen K for KK show few times. I think it is one of the worst music program. Look at the judges (Sudesh, Bappi Amit) and anchor (Babul). Most of the times their comments do not make any sense.
And if they start a show on Rafi, these 4 people won’t even get a chance to participate, forget about judging.
and by the way, Rafi is still more popular than KK. Rafi was singer of millennium. do not you know that?
Vipul
Dhani Ram,
Very nice post (908) indeed. Just now I was listening to Rafi’s song… “Watan pe jo fida hoga.. amar wo nojawan hoga”… Mindblowing control over voice. I am sure if we just compare vocal, Rafi is miles ahead… a true gifted singer….
The true capability of singer is decided by how easily he/she can sing diffcult songs. Most of KK’s songs were very easy. I have kk’s mp3 (cd) with about 150 songs or so and most of the time I fast forward many songs as it is a real pain listening to those songs. Now many are reallly popular songs like…
1> vada tera vada
2> Ek main aur ek too
3> Apni to jaise taise
4> Jay jay shiv shankar
5> Nanio pe sapna
6> Sagar kinare (I skip this one too as I find kk’s voice really harsh and thick .. I guess it is apersonal choice)
but I still skip them.
Again, everyone has different music taste. I even pefer to listen to SP or Udit Narayan over kk as I find SP and Udit’s voce more melodious than kk.
KK was good but there are many better than him.
Rafi is just beyond comparison.
Note: It is strictly mu view and people have all rights to differ.
The topic of ‘level of difficulty` and associated abilities of singers
has re-surfaced. Let me dwell on this briefly. The l.o.d. displayed is
a perfectly valid canon by which to evaluate a singer. But it is not
the only one nor is it the most important, IMO of course. Some of us
place a higher premium on originality (paradoxically, it ain’t easy,
originality). That is why we reward Kishore – not because he was capable
of great feats of swaracrobatics (to be sure, he wasn’t), or had a sweeping
range over all the octaves (he didn’t), but because in the realm of musical
expression he was supremely original. Let me ask you this.
Is there any intrinsic merit in making things difficult just for the
heck of it? In physics, for example, there are usually two approaches
to solving a problem – one is the time-tested brute force technique,
the domain of formidable tour de force’ers. The other is the intuitive
way, simpler in design but extremely elegant and almost always, profoundly
insightful. In music, Kishore Kumar could do the kind of magic beyond the
pale of even the most formidable technicians. Who would you have sing
“Chingaari koi bhadke” or “Zindagi ka Safar”? A Bhimsen, whose Sa is
as static (and ecstatic) as can be or a Kishore, who didn’t give a damn
about Sa (I remember him telling Lata rather candidly, “Tum to jaanti ho
mujhe yeh Sa Re Ga Ma kuch nahiN aataa”!). Like many of his gems, these
are ‘simple` tunes made immortal by sheer weight of expression, by a man
who could be profound without trying hard. It was never the kind of
delivery that beckoned, “I’m difficult and I beg of you to take
notice.”
Manna Dey has an interesting story to tell. It was the practice session
for the recording of the Padosan classic “Ek Chatur Naar” that
had brought them all together – Kishore, R.D. Burman, Mehmood and
Manna. Manna had gone in well-prepared intending “to teach Kishore
a lesson.” To paraphrase Manna: “As soon as we started it got utterly
hopeless for me. Here I was reproducing the song note-for-note, adhering
rigidly to the grammar while Kishore was out there having fun and had
captured the SPIRIT of the song effortlessly. I was sunk.” I give Manna a
very solid A for that honest and accurate assessment. Recently we heard
Asha make a comment that Kishore was approx 1.5 times better than Rafi.
Nauuughty girl, but right on the dot.
Dear ashu
do u know what said by Naushand for Mohd rafi,when people speak abount Naushand Ali they said That he is the man who changed the world of Music with Mohd Rafi voice and he is the man who made Lata ji.
jest take out Madan Mohan,Naushand,shammi Kapoor,SJ,RD,SD and LP you will get hundreds of great songs singed by Mohd Rafi about other two great singer Mukesk and KK, Muskesk jest take out Raj Kapoor,SJ and Majon Kummar and from KK jest take out RD,Mr Bachchan and Rajesh Khanna they will loss there 70% of there singing that is truth
KK was great and will be great but it not mean that he is best male play back singer.
one of friends at Mohd rafi site asked who are the best 3 playback singer and he asswered the 1st was Mohd Rafi 2nd is Mohd rafi and 3rd will be Mohd rafi ………..
Sudip
I always appreciate your comments and my own understanding of music has deepened by reading them.I have learnt a great deal from this debate though from the beginning I have held the view that no debate was called for.It was somewhat of a shock for me that on this forum Rafi’s supremacy was being questioned.I have always held that Rafi has been by far the greatest singer ever.
I have nothing against Kishoreda.Ashu loves him.You also love him though only next to Rafi.I have no complaint.Your description of me as a purist is also perhaps accurate.I can appreciate a musically knowledgeable person like Ashu preferring Kishore to all other singers.But what disturbs me greatly is that what started in 70’s has finally led to what is happening these days.Sudip,do you love Talat and Mukesh as well? Where are these singers in sa re ga ma pa or Indian Idol? They are obliterated.I ask college students if they have heard their names.Most haven’t heard Talat’s and many not even Mukesh’s.Rafi,of course,survives but it is not the best of Rafi.Not even the best of Kishore.And it all started with Kishore (for which Kishore was not responsible).I have been trying to obtain a CD of Talat’s songs but in vain.
Now,Sudip,I have a question for you.For Ashu also but I can anticipate Ashu’s answer.Recently I heard three CDs of Rafi,Mukesh and Kishore,each containing more than a hundred songs of each singer.My ever held opinion was confirmed.Mukesh was excellent from beginning to end.Rafi was incomparably melodious in 80 % songs.I don’t like Rafi’s Chahe mujhe koi junglee kahe type of stuff.Kishore CD I had borrowed from a Kishore fan who also sat through Kishore session.At the end he also admitted that it was sheer headache to go through.There was an occasional gem here and there.Which lover of music will not like Ik ladki bheegee bhaagee see or pal pal dil ke saath tum rehti ho or yeh jo mohabbat hai etc. but such were far and few in a sea of loud and jarring orchestra and jaded and wooden compositions.The problem is that Kishore sang too many songs and so did Rafi.Whereas much of Rafi is wonderful,much of Kishore is offensive to the finer musical sensibilities.Now my questiion to you is whether you feel the same way.I just request you to get hold of a CD of Kishore containing 150 odd songs and sit through it and tell me how you feel.
I have an important observation to make.Before Rafi came on the scene Sehgal type of singing held sway.Mukesh sang like Sehgal to begin with.Only yesterday I heard a Kishore song of early 50s sung in Sehgal style.Rafi initiated a completely new style of singing and all other singers then followed the master.Mukesh,Kishore,Manna,Mahendra gained great success by imitating the style of their master,Mohammed Rafi.
I had long forgotten a wonderful song of Rafi which I heard a few days back on Radio World Space:Jaane bahar husn tera bemisaal hai ,wallah kamaal hai arey wallah kamaal hai.Sudip,Vikram,Vipul,MYK,XXX,Probal you all must have heard it.What do you think of it?In this one song Rafi has employed more swaras than most singers do in their entire singing career.An exaggeration? Hardly if one has an ear for genuine music.
Rafi fans are jealous because of K for Kishore Kumar show on Sony! No body remembers Rafi now. After few years Rafi will be smoke. Love you Kishore-da.
“Panthi hu main us path ka” is a well-sung, but pretty easy song. Any good Ranindra Sangeet singer like Debabbrata Biswas or Hemant Kumar will sing it with ease because your guru copied it from Rabindra Sangeet tune. And it is not of the “Barbad-e-Mohabbat” genre.
BTW, I listened to Payal wali as well..I think it is possibly one of the badly sung songs of Kishore. There is hardly any pitch modulation, any ups and downs that any Raga based song demands. I am sure if he sang that for Naushad or Madan Mohan, they would have junked it.
Dear Vikram,
Singing in chorus is not offence or sin. My comment was reply to mr. xxx blog.
Vikram, i am eager to know which are the songs kishore sang in chorus. I could not find it in my reasearch, even AMit did not tell me.
Can you tell me or publish some reliable source?
Aur ha,,,i never think singing in chorus is belittle…
dear sudip:
Kishore would be there even if all songs were of “barbad-e mohabbat” (Laila Majnu) genre. I feel Kishore was much more talented than what his work reflected.
Pls. hear “Panthi hu main us path ka”
“Indirectly you guys are not appreciating Kishore’s talent and achievement, and giving credit to westen music.”
-This is your problem Ashu. You see things in black and white…When I say, Kishore was aided by changing trends, you take it as “Kishore did not have talent without western music”.
To me things are not black and white..Imagine if all songs of 70s were of “barbad-e mohabbat” (Laila Majnu) genre. Where would Kishore be? That does not mean he does not have talent; it just means that certain factors assist certain singers. If you simply follow Dev Anand numbers from the 50s to the 70s, the trend is obvious. To a puritan listener like Dhani Ram, lot of 70s numbers was “not music”. While I respect his opinion, I think it was markedly different.
My favorite Western-influenced number is “Ek haseen shaam ko” (Rafi, Dulhan Ek Raat ki). But that was classic Madan Mohan, not the mainstream western beats that RD and Bappi introduced. Very few people would even know that song, let alone knowing that it is a western influenced one.
Ashu, as far as singing in chorus is concerned, it was in fact Kishore Kumar who sang in chorus many a times in Rafi songs. You can ask Amit Kumar to verify this. Did it belittle Kishore? No, not at all. He proved his brilliance as a playback singer. Please don’t mock chorus singers. They are definitely good. That’s why they are there in the first place. You never know we could have another Kishore Kumar from that talented lot.
Mr. xxx,
I did not want to reply ur blog, but i could not resist myself:
Here u wrote:
tere bina zindagi se , tum aa gaye ho were the compositions of caliber to turn any mediocre singer to superstar
My reply:
FYI: kishore become super singer since 69, Aandhi released in 1976. DO you imagine what would have happened to Rafi if Naushad would have not given him chance…He might have ended his career singing in chorus..Pls. think twice before writing nonsense….
Sudip,
I am completely disagree with you on western influence in indian cinema during 70s. Indirectly you guys are not appreciating Kishore’s talent and achievement, and giving credit to westen music.
What abt following songs, are they not westen influenced songs?
1. Kis kisko pyaar karo
2. All songs from Teesari Manzil
3. dekkho logon e kaisa zamman (70s)
4. puchho na yaar kya hua (early 80s)
There are many songs sung by Rafi…
It means Rafi and kishore, both got opportunities to prove their verstality in western as well as indian, after all they were playback singer not pure classical singers. Playback singer must have all these qualities.
Why don’t you accept that Kishore was talented enough to mould himself in any style compared to any singers.
Kishore never changed as singer during 70s and 80s, he was same kishore who sang beautiful songs in 60s.
Manish, I am not sure abt Rafi’s world visit in 69, but info which i got from vaikuntam (one music player in RDB’s group) that RD wanted Kishore to sing all other songs, and after “Roop Tera Mastana” SDB sticked to ED’s decision.