An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Mr. MYK
I feel it is waste to argue with you. Only SPB, TMS and PBS can confirm all of my points as corrrect. They indeed have a great regard for rafi, but equally they have the same for ghantasala also. To these singers, both rafi and ghantasala are equally awe inspiring legends till date. Anyhow, i leave it to your mind your own views. But i retain my point, whatever your views may be, ghantasala is the best. Good bye.
Things are pretty amusing here. It’s KK+Ghantasala V Rafi. Hoping it will not become KK+Ghantasala+Pandit Bhimsen Joshi+Michael Jackson V Rafi.
By the way isn’t the Ghantasala V Rafi thing ever going to end? Some 200-250 posts have already appeared in ‘Mohdrafi.com’ and now it’s spilled over to this place and why there’s no KK V Ghantasala? Are these two singers technically and operationally so similar?
Let us deconstruct Post 1094 and point out the flaws and myths spread by Mr. Murthy:
“1. Rafi of south word (according to you) to ghantasala does not mean he is less than rafi. Ghantasala’s every song and rendering was a gem like mohd. rafi’s songs in hindi. Films may have failed, but all songs of ghantasala are hits and gems. In this context, So he is called he is like rafi and does not mean that rafi is greater. In fact, ghantasala should not be compared to rafi, as he is perfect in his own incomparable style. Since rafi is more famous (only due to his association with national scene as a greatest singer), he is only being adopted as a benchmark.”
Why are we comparing apples and oranges. Ghantasala may have been a great singer, but he is no where near Rafi. Rafi is not adopted as the benchmark due to his singing on the National scene, he is being adopted as the benchmark because he is the benchmark. How do you explain SI musicians and celebs calling Rafi the greatest ?. IR who never even worked with Rafi, hails him to be the best singer of all time. Same is the case with MSV, Yesudas, SPB and so many others from the South. I am only mentioning the South here, since you and others seem to be hell bent on making Ghantasala equal or better than Rafi, when he is no where close. Why do all fans of every singer compare their favourite to Rafi ?. You don’t see Ghantasala crop up in many discussions do you ?. It’s only fans such as yourself who by force put his name and associate him with Rafi.
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“2. Ghantasala has composed his max. songs as music director in only half an hour (tuning a song). All are major hits with films running for 100’s of days. Such was his talent as music director and concentration in music. Did rafi possess such talent. Certainly no.”
Really, and how did you come to the conclusion that Rafi did not posess such talent ?. You lecture others about knowledge, yet have little knowledge yourself. Rafi could definitely compose songs, and he did, in a few albums as well, but as I mentioned in a link to a previous article, his profession was singing and he did not want to compose for various reasons.
Let me repeat that excerpt for you, Rafi says in the interview:
“In fact, producer-director S. Mukherjee had asked me to compose music for one of his films, sometime back. I turned down his offer because it is my firm belief that one should be perfect in only one field. Look at Talat Mahmood. He took up acting and after he could click neither as a singer nor as an actor.
The late Mukeshbhai took up production and lost heavily when the films he made flopped. If I were to agree to compose music for film today, the other music directors would start feeling that I might steal their tunes for my own films and hence they might even stop assigning me the job of singing for them.”
Rafi had so much knowledge of music. Listen to his live concert version of “O duniya ke rakhwale” where his “mehe udaas aur galiyan sooni” is completely his own and not part of the original song. He also used to suggest many things to MD’s a countless number of times.
This is not about music direction or any other field, its about singing, the very fact that you hve brought up music direction shows your insecurities. Composing songs doesn’t make one a better singer. Stick to what is being discussed.
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“3. Hindi producer sunderlal nehta had produced many telugu films, he did only prefer ghantasala both as singer and music director for films produced by him.”
And your point here is ?. If you’re going to bring up such absurd points, then there is no point in debating further. One producer out of countless others doesn’t make a difference. NTR asked Rafi to sing for some of his Telegu films, because NTR and the makers of these films thought Rafi was the only one who could do justice to those songs, and the fact that Rafi was the greatest.
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“4. Ghantasala has sung many songs in tamil, kannada (from 1950-65) and few in malayalam languages also. In kannada, he is equally regarded as greatest and in tamil, T M soundarrajan is referred to as tamil ghantasala, (TMS rose to fame only after ghantasala left tamil) for your kind information. P B srinivas was associated with ghantasala for as many as 20 years, and he states that voice of ghantasala is impregnable and he is a incomparable legend. Ghantasala’s max. contribution was in telugu with roughly 14000 plus songs and other renditions in sanskrit with complete perfection and great melody (e.g. bhagavad gita and other very great devotional private albums and other private albums all of which are stupendous hits) . So your view about only telugu scene is a myth. He continued in telugu leaving other languages after 1965, because he felt telugu to be great and he had complete command over telugu language. You have to brush up your knowledge. Thus, ghantasala is unique in south.”
I think the one who needs a brushing in their knowledge is you, as your points are not only foolish, but myths. PBS and TMS are regarded as legends in their field. TMS was regarded as the top singer in his language from the late 50’s, regardless of if Ghantasala sang there or not, and same is the case with PBS. Ghantasala definitely did not rule the SI scene, if he did, then the others would have been left far behind. Not only are the other two legends, but they’re unique in their own way. Rafi on the other hand ruled over the whole National scene and left everyone far behind. The National scene had much more competition compared to down South and was on a much bigger scale. You can’t compare the two.
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I am not going to reply to point 5, as it doesn’t relate at all to the discussion. If you’re going to bring up points, atleast bring up relevant ones.
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“6. Rafi since he is associated with hindi language was more famous and thus his voice was accessible to many people. This itself cannot make him great. As Mr. Raghavan and Mr. Vipul states, ghantasala is far superior to rafi in his command over music.”
Good one there, far from the truth, but a good one. Rafi is more famous for his skills and the fact that he was better, is not because he sang on the Hindi scene, but he was better in general. Ghantasala superior to Rafi in his command over music ?. Really ?. I fail to see this, as do the countless other musicians, MD’s, fans all over the world and so forth, who all hail Rafi to be the greatest. Ghantasala never sang songs as difficult as Rafi. I have yet to see a song by Ghantasala that comes near a ‘O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” or a “Likhar Tera Naam Zamin Par”, these two can be considered the litmus test for any singer. Ghantasala never sang songs in as many genres. Mr. Raghavan mentions Rafi has only sung songs and ghazals being ignorant of the fact that he was the most versatile singer, singing songs in genres such as romantic, sad, ghazals, qawwali’s, bhajans, pop, rock, disco, pathos, happy, comedy songs, Ghantasala doesn’t have as wdie a repertoire whether you say he does or not, the truth is the truth after all, so please don’t put him in the same league as Rafi. Also, Rafi had a better range and was far more versatile.
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“7. Sri Raghavan and Sri Vitthal have referred to padyams which are compositions of unique blend only in telugu language. None can deny that ghantasala is a master in these. Thus, rafi was only a great singer, whereas ghantasala was a great singer par excellence and more versatile than rafi. Ghantasala’s contribution in his own field was much much greater than rafi’s contribution in his own field.”
Again, you are stating your views only, far from what actually happened. Rafi’s contribution far exceeds that of Ghantasala, its a universal fact. Ghantasala may have been a master in his own field but he can never be in the same league or class as Rafi. Rafi’s contribution in his field is far ahead of Ghantasala in his field or any singer in their field.
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“8. Ghantasala never sang in hindi, because he had great regard for rafi, and he did not want to spoil the hindi language, as mr. raghavan states, and he confined to his own languages and not like rafi who sang in telugu to pronounce telugu language like the present singer udit narayan (unfortunate that telugu singing today has got access to such singers).”
You love wishful thinking don’t you ?. Even if Ghantasala had tried to sing in Hindi, he would have never made it big. Rafi sang in Telegu and did a great job considering it wasn’t his mother tongue, and Mr. Ragahvan states another myth that Rafi was brought to Telegu music than overlooked after because of Ghantasala. For your info, Rafi started singing Telegu versions of his Hindi songs from the early sixties, that is how popular his Hindi songs in the South were, that people wanted them in the Telegu language, amidst Ghantasala and all other singers. NTR asked Rafi to sing for him sometime around 1970 for the film Aradhana which was a remake of the Hindi film Geet, besides other films as well. Where was Ghantasala then ?, he was still there right. So what Mr. Raghavan has stated is false. Don’t bring up the excuse that Telegu singers don’t get as much exposure and that’s why Ghantasala is not as known. SPB and Yesudas are still very famous and they have mostly sung in the South. IR is a famous world wide musician and he is from the South. Ghantasala knew he could never match Rafi in singing, so he never tried his hand at singing in Hindi. I am sure Ghantasala would have said this himself.
Also, the MD’s in HFM never needed the services of Ghantasala, had they wanted him to sing, they would have called him over. NTR called Rafi over to Telegu music didn’t he ?, so the same would have happened had anyone wanted Ghantasala to sing in HFM. MD-wise, HFM was more versatile, and had more variety MD-wise as well with MD’s from all over India, North, South, East and West, and the majority all hailed Rafi as the best singer of all.
Ghantasala or anyone can never be compared to Rafi, because Rafi is miles ahead of the rest. It’s silly to compare anyone to Rafi, anyone who has musical knowledge will never tread such waters, I am surprised you and others are.
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Mr. Raghavan,
I have replied to some of your points in my reply to Mr. Murthy, and I will respond to your other points here. Even if some of the Rafi fans from the Rafi forum changed their views about who is the best, it doesn’t change the fact that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time and everyone tries to compare others to Rafi.
Padyams don’t make any singer the greatest. If Ghantasala has sung them, then that’s great. Rafi definitely had a more flexible voice and a more melodious voice than Ghantasala. Rafi could sing many more types of songs, which Ghantasala could not even think of attempting and he hasn’t sung them at all either. I have heard a lot of Ghantasala and he is no where close to Rafi. His strong point was classical music but in classical music Rafi was also very strong. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh the doyen of classical music considered Rafi to be the best when it came to classical songs. True, you cannot compare Carnatic and Hindustani music, both were great in their respective classical songs, but Rafi was miles ahead when it came to being the complete singer.
From the similar songs that Rafi and Ghantasala have both sung in Hindi/Urdu and Telegu, I find the Rafi versions to be better than the Ghantasala versions, and in general Ghantasala’s songs are no where near Rafi’s songs in terms of level of difficulty, as well as melody and many other factors.
I disagree that Telegu is the best language, that is your opinion, its not the truth and a quote from one person or others won’t make it the truth. What does this have to do with our discussion anyways ?. Please bring up relevant points. No one has to be versed in Telegu to be the best in any field, and especially the music field. I find urdu to be musically the best language, it has a better flow in terms of words and is a more sweeter language compared to telegu. I have many Telegu friends, hence I know some of the language, but Urdu to me is the ultimate musical language. You will also find that Ghazals and Qawwali’s, besides numerous other musical genres all are born from Udru, Arabic and Persian.
I have many musically knowledgeable Telegu and SI friends, and they would never make such a comparison between Rafi and Ghantasala, because they know Rafi is the greatest of them all, I don’t understand why Ghantasala is being compared to Rafi by force as well as brought into this discussion which is primarily about Rafi and Kishore on a KK forum.
Also, please read Dhani Ram’s recent post, it is full of great and interesting points.
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Ashu,
You have stated the final list of songs for 1979. Not all final lists tell the whole story. There are various TRENDS one has to take into consideration as well. As Naveen pointed out, except for 1979, Rafi had the top songs for the other years 1977,78,80 & 81, Rafi had the top song and not KK. From 1976-1978, Rafi and KK shared top honours in terms of number of hits. Then from 1979-81, Rafi dominated Kishore in a big way. If you listened to the BGM at that time, you will know what I am talking about. For example, on May 28th, 1980, Rafi had 10 songs compared to KK’s 2, out of 16 total songs, on the weekly BGM.
What Naveen pointed out is correct, even from 1972-75, Rafi’s sogs made their presence felt on the charts, and regardless of those charts he had a countless number of hits in those years as well.
Ofcourse Rafi regained his top position after 1969, the facts are infront of you whether you want to accept it or not. Also, musically Kishore never matched Rafi in any way, its foolish on yours or anyone’s part to compare the two in the first place. Rafi fans know Rafi is the greatest, there are no signs of insecurity or jealousy or anything else from our side. It’s only various KK fans and various fans of other singers who always try and compare their favourite singer to Rafi.
You wrote:
“but i feel it is my duty to make u aware of truth”
Coming from a person who has shown little knowledge in terms of music, and in general, its a funny statement. I think, it is our duty as fans of the greatest singer Rafi, to enlighten you and other folks out there about what really happened, and make you aware of the truth, as well as pass on to you our knowledge because you seem to have little of it and don’t know what you are talking about. You and others definitely need to enhance your knowledge and when you do, you will never compare anyone, including KK, to Rafi, because you will know Rafi is the greatest of them all.
Your posts are not only full of myths, lies etc. and they’re all opinions and perceptions not based on fact. Many of your points are hilarious. You ask questions such as “what qualities are needed to be a singer of bhajans or classical songs”, in response to Vipul’s questions directed at you, trying to cover up the fact that KK was not very versatile, and that he was hardly a factor in those genres as well as many other genres. This is just one of the many examples of your hilarious posts. Why don’t you just accept KK for what he was, and accept his limitations, instead of wasting your time comparing him to a giant like Rafi.
Also, songs are songs, no matter if they’re solo’s or duets, so your highlighting of solo’s won’t alter or change the truth that Rafi had much more hits than KK from 76-81. It’s again foolish to highlight solo’s over duets when both are songs, its similar to your bogus theory of a first or second actor. Please don’t bring up such nonsense points. However, if you want to highlight solo’s, then Rafi had countless number of solo’s that were hits from 1976-81. You only state things from lists and elsewhere which will be good for your argument, and you fail to point out other things, as well as trends, which don’t make a good case for you. Naveen and myself are pointing out facts (what really happened on the BGM), and you are not responding to those points that we are making.
Moreover, you haven’t listed all films from 1976-81, you’ve only chosen a few films. Furthermore, the films you chose had many more Rafi hits than Kishore, so you’ve actually proven my point and the point of others as well.
Please read Naveen’s posts, it is great and full of very interesting info.
Btw, Ashu, you haven’t answered my question as to what you think about Rajesh Roshan compared to RDB ?.
Mr. Dhani ram your post 1095
Mr.A R. Rehman is a child in music. Lata Mangeshkar has sung songs in music direction of rehman and you can hear her views on rehman. Rehman did not mention ghantasala, because there was never a need to mention him. Greats need not be mentioned. You pose a purposeful and straight question to rehman on ghantasala and see what will be the answer.
My request to you, you first hear sri ghantasala in the link provided by sri raghavan in post 1080 and you will yourself know what he is. Pl. carefully hear the song for the full 6 minutes and post your views with plain and true heart. Without hearing pl. do not try to question his greatness. Without hearing anybody can talk anything.
Refer to Ashu’s post 1082 and 1083:
It is all about perception.Glass is half empty and half full at the same time.It depends upon how you look at it.Ashuji looks only at the Kishore side of things. In one of my posts I clearly said that except for 1979,Rafi voice appeared at the top (strictly between Rafi and Kishore) on BGM “paidyan” from 1977 and 1978.
Let’s take top three on BGM of every year from 1976 to 1981:
The top three represents that the three biggest or most popular
hits of the year.There are other hits as well but let’s focus only top
three and see if it tells us something.I am not mentioning female
singers and any other male singer other that Rafi,Kishore or Mukesh.
1976:
1. Kabhi kabhi mere dil mein khayaal aata hai [Mukesh]
2. Ik din bik jaayega maati ke mol [Mukesh]
3. Main to aarti utaaroon re Santoshi
Veridict: Mukesh year
1977:
1. Husn haazir hai mohabbat ki saza paane ko
2. Pardah hai pardah [Rafi]
3. O meri mehbooba mehbooba mehbooba tujhe [Rafi]
Verdict: Rafi’s year
1978:
1. Ankhiyon ke jharonkhon se
2. Aadmi musaafir hai aata hai jaata [Rafi]
3. Kya hua tera waada wo [Rafi]
Verdict: Rafi’s year
1979:
1. Khaike paan Banaras waala (honorary) Kishore
1. O saathi re [Kishore]
2. Aaja re o mere dilbar aa ja
3. Na jaane kaise [Rafi Kishore]
Veridict: Kishore’s year
1980:
1. Dafli waale dafli bajaa mere ghunghroo bulaate [Rafi]
2. Meri umar ke naujawaanon dil na lagaana o deewaanon [Kishore]
3. Sheesha ho ya dil ho aakhir toot jaata hai
Verdict: Rafi year as no 1 song is Rafi’s although a duet
1981:
1 Mere Angane Mein
2 Zindagi Ki Na Toote
3 Chal Mere Bhai [Rafi]
Verdict: Between Rafi and Kishore,Rafi tops. Actually if you take Amitabh
as a singer he is at the top.
Ashuji I am a big fan of Rafi and I also like Kishore especially his fifties output. I will vehemently disagree with any serious Rafi fan who claims that Rafi was the only top singer of seventies or that Rafi was not impacted by Kishore’s growth.Everyone was. We can’t change the facts.It is true that once Kishore and Rajesh Khanna came out strong together, Kishore finally had made a mark that he rightly had deserved. But it is equally true that Rafi was only impacted up to a point.He still continued to be a giant force to reckon with ,even when the tide was not in his side.That makes him even greater. Even when Kishore’s dominance on Binaca was formidable for the years 72 through 75,Rafi had his presence sometimes as much as 5/6 songs out of top 30-32 of the year.From 76 to 81 we have already discussed. In any case I think overall Kishore had the most influence on the decade of seventies , but you can’t rule out that trends were favoring Rafi towards the second half .Can you imagine that even in 1982 couple of years after his death,Rafi had cool 4 songs on BGM annual of 1982.
Thanks
Naveen
It is surprising that Sri Ghantasala has intruded into this debate on Rafi versus Kishore.I have always held that there is nothing to debate between Rafi and Kishore.It is just the intransigence of a handful of drum-beaters for Kishore Kumar, who keep floating ingenious inventions, that true lovers of music like MYK,Sudip,Vikram and Vipul are compelled to counter them lest false prophets like Ashu, who forget in one post what they have blatantly asserted in another, should gain currency.
If participants like Ghani,Vithhal,Raghavan etc feel so strongly that a real debate lies between Rafi and Ghantasala,we are ready for that and are quite confident that we shall be able to show Rafi’s superiority to Ghantasala.
By the way in a recent statement A.R.Rahman said that Rafi was the greatest singer of all times and Lata,S.Chitra,Yesudas and SP were the other top singers.He didn’t mention Ghantasala.Rahman is a Telugu himself and is supposed to have some knowledge of music.If Ghantasala is such a big shot why has he escaped the notice of someone like Rahman?This is just the beginning of the riposte.If it turns into a full fledged debate on Rafi and Ghantasala ,much more will follow.
Just one question for the fans of Ghantasala:Is Ghantasala as good as Ustad Amanat Ali Khan,a Pakistani classical maestro who besides his thumris and dadras,sang supernal ghazals and film songs?
Mr. Ashu (post 1083) and Mr. Vipul (Post 1091)
I have great regards and admirations on your true views on shri ghantasala. What you have said is absolutely true about the great ghantasala. I appreciate your keen sense of observation and your great hearts of recognising true music and accordingly great legends. As you rightly said, ghantasala is technically greater than kishore and rafi, this is due to his edge in carnatic music training coupled with his melodious and mellifluous voice.
Friends, such is the talent and voice of ghantasala and even many mohd. rafi fans (including Mr. MYK) have also agreed to it. Anybody, who hears ghantasala presents such views. Thank you very much.
In fact, my dear friends, mr. ashu and mr. vipul, i also agree to to your views that Mohd. rafi fans have less patience. They have a psycho fear of losing rafi’s greatness, when anybody has proved that a singer is better than rafi. They are not able to bear their dreams being shattered. In fact, they never imagined that singer such as ghantasala has ever existed. As Mr. raghavan says, rafi is a very great singer in bollywood, but only after ghantasala.
Mr. MYK – your myths explained here. (This article is specially meant only for sri MYK for his incomplete knowledge about sri ghantasala)
1. Rafi of south word (according to you) to ghantasala does not mean he is less than rafi. Ghantasala’s every song and rendering was a gem like mohd. rafi’s songs in hindi. Films may have failed, but all songs of ghantasala are hits and gems. In this context, So he is called he is like rafi and does not mean that rafi is greater. In fact, ghantasala should not be compared to rafi, as he is perfect in his own incomparable style. Since rafi is more famous (only due to his association with national scene as a greatest singer), he is only being adopted as a benchmark.
2. Ghantasala has composed his max. songs as music director in only half an hour (tuning a song). All are major hits with films running for 100’s of days. Such was his talent as music director and concentration in music. Did rafi possess such talent. Certainly no.
3. Hindi producer sunderlal nehta had produced many telugu films, he did only prefer ghantasala both as singer and music director for films produced by him.
4. Ghantasala has sung many songs in tamil, kannada (from 1950-65) and few in malayalam languages also. In kannada, he is equally regarded as greatest and in tamil, T M soundarrajan is referred to as tamil ghantasala, (TMS rose to fame only after ghantasala left tamil) for your kind information. P B srinivas was associated with ghantasala for as many as 20 years, and he states that voice of ghantasala is impregnable and he is a incomparable legend. Ghantasala’s max. contribution was in telugu with roughly 14000 plus songs and other renditions in sanskrit with complete perfection and great melody (e.g. bhagavad gita and other very great devotional private albums and other private albums all of which are stupendous hits) . So your view about only telugu scene is a myth. He continued in telugu leaving other languages after 1965, because he felt telugu to be great and he had complete command over telugu language. You have to brush up your knowledge. Thus, ghantasala is unique in south.
5. The great telugu film lava kusa, for which ghantasala was the music director, had run for 365 days, and was subsequently dubbed in hindi, with only lady songs dubbed. Ghantasala’s great songs in telugu picture were not sung by any male singer in hindi dubbed version ( there are no male songs in hindi) because there was no singer in hindi who could do justice akin to ghantasala in telugu. So the producer left the blank for male songs in hindi with a intention not to disturb the great ghantasala’s rendition in telugu. (however, ghantasala’s sanskrit sloka has been retained as it is, similarly one sanskrit sloka of ghantasala is retained in hindi suvarna sundari and also in hindi film khandaan)
6. Rafi since he is associated with hindi language was more famous and thus his voice was accessible to many people. This itself cannot make him great. As Mr. Raghavan and Mr. Vipul states, ghantasala is far superior to rafi in his command over music.
7. Sri Raghavan and Sri Vitthal have referred to padyams which are compositions of unique blend only in telugu language. None can deny that ghantasala is a master in these. Thus, rafi was only a great singer, whereas ghantasala was a great singer par excellence and more versatile than rafi. Ghantasala’s contribution in his own field was much much greater than rafi’s contribution in his own field.
8. Ghantasala never sang in hindi, because he had great regard for rafi, and he did not want to spoil the hindi language, as mr. raghavan states, and he confined to his own languages and not like rafi who sang in telugu to pronounce telugu language like the present singer udit narayan (unfortunate that telugu singing today has got access to such singers).
9. Lastly, arguably, sorry inarguably ghantasala is the greatest. Telugu people should not compare ghantasala with any singer, because such great cannot be compared, whatever may be the views of others.
10. Finally, ghantasala had invoked navarasas (all the 9 essential qualities prescribed for a rendition in music) in all his songs and renditions. There is no doubt in that.
My above views are only to contradict and enlighten people like Sri MYK who are arguing with very limited knowledge of shri ghantasala.
Kishore fans,
I fully appreciate your wonderful arguments about kishore kumar singing great against Mohd. rafi. In fact, my personal feeling is that kishore did definitely great in some songs than mohd. rafi. There is no doubt about it.
Ashu said ——-
“I think i have exposed u many times…..and it seems u r a person, who don’t learn from his mistake…Anyway….that is not my problem…”
Reply: I have always said that my music knowledge is very limited and I am here to enhance my knowledge. So if you feel you have exposed me, it is fine with me. But since there are many Rafi fans here whose views are similar to mine and exactly opposite than yours, I am in confused state whether to believe you or them.
You said KK took over Rafi in 69 where as numbers says Rafi was far ahead than KK in 69 and 70. You said KK threatend number 1 poistion in 67 where as numbers says he sang only in 2 movies in 1967 and in 3 movies in 68. It becomes very diffcult to believe you after this. Your comments and facts are so opposite that leads me not to believe you much. I am sorry for that.
Hoever I still respect you for youe ability to debate and divert topic conveniently when you are on the losing ground. I mean not many people have this quality. I have seen many astrologers, spiritual leaders doing the same thing when they are questioned specifically. Yuo are really dynamic and very clever. I admire those qualities about you.
I would also like to appriciate many Rafi fans here mainly Dhani Raam, Sudip, MYK, Vikram, Manish Kumar for their wonderful posts and few links they provided to some good Rafi songs.
Ajab hai dastaan teri song by Rafi on KK is very good and I think MD’s felt that since KK has no vocal capability to do justice to this song, it went to Rafi. I mean Rafi sang 11 times for kk. I think it is a very high number considering number of movies made those days and number of movies in which kk was acting!
I will limit this post to discussing patriotic songs only.
Ashu asked “what are the qualities required to sing such song?”
Reply: I am not a singer nor an MD and my musical knowledge is very limited. The only way I am connected to music is through my passion and nothing else.
So with my very very limited knowledge, I think you need a depth in the voice and you should be able to stay on high pitch for a longer time to sing such songs. (kk lacked this) and hence you find many patriotic songs in Rafi and Mahendra Kappor’s voice. I mean most of the MD’s felt the same.
I already gave my list for Rafi and I know we can add few more to it. KK has almost nothing in the same category.
Even in today’s world, I think KK clones have hardly sang such songs as they lack the same vocal quality and you find that most of such songs have gone to others. I will give few examples…
Zindgi maut na ban jaye (Sonu Nigam)
Paghdai sambhal jatta (I think Sukhwinder)
Mera rang de basanti chola (Sonu Nigam)
Mere dushman mere bhai (Hariharan) . This song won some national award and it is excellent in terms of lyrics. Hats off Javed Akhtar.
Yeh jo desh hai tera (A R Rehman)
I remember one patriotic song by Kumar Sanu (nasal kk clone) and he really screwed that song. I will try to find out on internet that song will provide the link if possible. But any Sanu fans here, could help me finding that one.
In summary, I think I have made my position clear that Rafi is far far ahead than KK in this category and we will move to the next category (Bhajans) later.
Raghavan,
Thanks for the link you provided. Ghantasala was excellent.
Please also note that I had no intension of comparing Rafi and Ghantasala.
Ghantasala was brought into equation by KK fan (Raj) and Ashu conveniently accused Rafi fans for comparing him with Rafi. I know Ashu is smart in playing with words.
I will try to listen to Ghantasala more and more and will provide my feedback. But the link you provided, was awesome! Thanks again…
Here we are only comparing Rafi and kk and you already agree that Rafi is miles ahead of KK.
You mentioned that Rafi was not able to do justice to Telugu songs. Well, I can’t comment on that but it could be due to lack of understanding of the language. I mean you can’t put right emotion unless you know what the song is in terms of lyrics.
I am a great fan of SP and he has sung lots of hits in Hindi movies. But somehow I felt that in few songs , he was putting something extra or he was over singing!
Example – Bahut Pyar karte hai tumko sanam song from Sajan. He sang lines “Hume har ghadi aaaaaaarzo hai tumhari” . According to me he stretched a bit too much on that word (aarzo) and ruined it!
Again, I am not a music expert, so I could be wrong but that is what I feel when I hear SPB in that song.
Anyways, I loved your detailed post and I promise to listen to more and more of Ghantasala in future.
can some one tell me where i can find this bgm lists.
heyy..i dont know why people here are bragging about the same thing again and again.. no body would get anything by running round and round.. rafi ruled bollywood till late 60’s .. kishore managed to dethrone him not only dethroned him but score over him in number of hits during 70’s.. y dont all rafians talk about the ban that was put by congress on kishore in 78 and 79 because of which kishore couldnt win the best singer award in 1979 despite having two nominations for aanewala pal and ek raasta hai zindagi.. kishore remained there till his death where he belonged on the top of the music world..why people idealize kk and rafi because they have ruled..so without creating more fuss that both r greats and it was kishore who survived the fierce competition of 70’s and became the most celebrated singer of indian history..no matter what u rafians say..it is obvious that u guys have this somewhere in your heart that it was kk who dethroned rafi and no body else could do it..he was different and he is still considered the most versatile by many. so guys chill..dont eat out realities and try to swallow the truth.
sorry for my last blog,
I uploaded my analysis in tabular form, but i think there was some problem in table rendering….
Actually it was like this:
Movie Name Kishore Rafi
for e.g.
Abdullah Kishore Rafi
Red Rose Kishore
Pls. bear with me. i reserve my comment for next blog…I would like u guy to send comment on this analysis….
Here is analysis on 1980 movie:
aakrosh
aanchal
kishore
aap ke deeane
Kishore
Rafi
Aasha
Rafi
Abdulla
Kishore
Rafi
Alibabaaur chalis chor
Kishore
Apne Paraye
Kishore
Banbai ka Maharaj
Kishore
Behke Kadam
Rafi
Beraham
Rafi
Chambal Ki Kasam
Rafi
Chehre Pe Chehra
Rafi
Dhan Daulat
Kishore
Do aur Do Paanch
Kishore
Do Premee
Kishore
Rafi
Dostana
Kishore
Rafi
Hum Pannch
Kishore
Rafi
Juddai
Kishore
Rafi
Karz
Kishore
Rafi
khoobsurat
NO
NO
Maang Bharo Sajana
Kishore
Paayal KI jhankar
Kishore
Qurbani
Kishore
Rafi
Raam Balram
Kishore
Rafi
Red Rose
Kishore
Saboot
Kishore
Shaan
Kishore
Rafi
The Burning Train
Kishore
Rafi
Thodi si Bewafa
Kishore
Uneed Bees
Rafi
Yaari Dushmini
Kishore
Rafi
Thanks Vikram,
For posting Soham’s interview link: If you go back few blog of mine, you can find i posted 2 link where Vishal(Vishal-Shekhar fame) said “He is die-hard fan of Kishore” and KK also said the same abt Kishore.
Soham likes Rafi as u like Rafi, vishal likes Kishore as i like Kishore. So, it is very subjective.
I’ve gone through link and i found him (Soham) mentioning “K for Kishore” in interview. Have u observed one thing…U can be fan of Rafi, but u can’t ignore Kishore….
U wrote:
See carefully. Kishore looks so angry with himself for not having been allowed to sing even for himself. What an irony! He is so upset that he can’t even lip synch properly.
My reply:
I can just laugh on this….U mean to say…..director paagal tha jo kishore ka emotion dekh nahi paaya…THis is another illusion from ur side…..
Vipul..
I am not playing with words…I am telling u a truth..I have already presented evidence on Kishore’s popularity in 2008.
I have question for you and other rafians:
Pls. go through this link and let me know if there are any movie missed in the list:
http://filmyduniya.in/bollywood/movies/1980/
Dear friend Sudip,
I am sure…Not only u can sing “Thumri”, “Yoodelling” but also u can compose, write lyrics, act.
Ashu:
You got it!!! I am learning Thumri. Your example of Kishore’s Thumri gave me the confidence that I can also sing it…Thanks mate for the pointer..
After all, you know what Manna said about copying Kishore’s songs 😉
VIpul…
I think i have exposed u many times…..and it seems u r a person, who don’t learn from his mistake…Anyway….that is not my problem…
Let me explain you abt Kishore, Ghantsala and Rafi.
I heard Ghantasala…He is great in his own style, technically he might be greater than Kishore and Rafi.
I know what i am discussing here…I am not confused like you..
I am discussing Hindi film music, and i am discussing hindi playback singers.
Personlly i believe there is no match for Kishore, and i am not shy to accept that Rafi and Mukesh were another great singers we had, though they have different styles. But still there is room for comparison between Rafi and Kishore, because they both belong to Hindi film music, and they both were playback singer, first was not true in case of Ghantsala….So i don’t waste my time in comaparing them, again u people compare ghantsala with Rafi, because u still don’t know where Rafi stands….
Personally i don;t feel to compare them(Rafi n Kishore), but it was you rafians alwyas start this thread, because you are not sure abt Rafi’s position…
[Check Mohdrafi.com website….People start abusing when they lost debate]
Vipul, During debate People like you, has very limited knowledge(~negligible) abt music, talk abt patriotic, qawaali, and blah.
Can you answer my few questions:?
1. What are the qualities require to sing Patriotic songs?
2. What are the qualities require to sing Qawaali songs?
3. What are the qualities require to sing sad songs?
4. What are the qualities require to sing happy songs?
Above questions are in the context of SUR and TAAL. Pls. don’t try to divert the topic….
Waiting for reply.
I am missing Sudip here…..I think he is learning “Thumri” 🙂
Dear myk….
My analysis are completely original……
Here is list of BMG 80:
In top 5….There was only one solo in male voice, and that is from Kishore…
– Meri umar ke naozawanoo…
Rest are duets from Sargam, and Mr. Natwarlal
Is it not enough to open ur eyes…..??????
I will repeat again…Rafi never regained his lost position after 69…..
myk,
I never said Sargam was released in after 80. Pls. check the blog.
Here is list of BMG 79:
Top 5 songs:
1. khike Paan Banara wala.. Kishore
2. O Saathi Re …kishore version, not Asha
3. AAja re…Lata from Noorie
4. badalatey Rishtey….Kishore for Roshi and Rafi for Jeetendra, suman for Reena Roy
5. Hum Bewafa….kishore in shalimar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaca_Geetmala_annual_list_1979
Kishore: 3 solos…..There were no solo from Lata or Rafi in top 5…
I am sure it will not open ur eyes, but i feel it is my duty to make u aware of truth…
Mr. Vipul – your post 1075 & Mr. MYK -post 960 and other posts.
I request you to kindly give a patient reading to my post 1065.
I am well versed in 12 languages including telugu and hindi and my knowledge says that, though i am a tamilian, telugu is the best and greatest among all the indian languages. This was stated by late prime minister p v narasimha rao, who was adept in 18 languages, and also by the 15th century vijayanagara emperor, sri krishna deva raya, who was well versed in all the national languages. The emperor had 9 jewels in his court, who were all great and preferably genuises in telugu language and composing and rendering of padyams (which sri vitthal ji referred) The emperor spent most of his time listening to the telugu compositions. To be adept in telugu language is simply a fortune to be inherited by birth.
As vitthal ji observed, ghantasala had sung innumerable padyams in films in telugu, and he was a master incomparable in that. Leave Mohd. rafi, no other southern singer could match ghantasala in that, leave his songs. Ghantasala had no formal education, he was a freedom fighter who was jailed for 18 months for his participation in quit india movement, yet by virtue of his god gifted talent he achieved pinnacle heights in the south indian cine field. His telugu command is completely perfect. Not only telugu, hear his sanskrit slokas and other renderings, they are completely perfect. He was a music director par excellence. The combination of ghantasala and NTR in the mythological movies in telugu, where NTR has achieved the status of being seen as god by his so called believing fans, cannot be seen or perceived anywhere in India in any language leave Hindi. Mythological movies are the best in only telugu language, whether in terms of music, singing, acting or screeplay etc. and ghantasala and NTR and another great actor from the south SVR simply excel. Such combination has never been in India in any language. Padyams, as referred by sri vitthal ji, are a unique genre of dramatic verses, which have been mainly sung in dramas. Ghantasala had the unique distintion of bringing padyams to films and giving them a blend of the greatest style and rendering to the absolute perfection in films, mostly mythological. padyams singing require different musical training, called as padya sangeetham, and ghantasala was adept in that. Despite ghantasala’s training, ghantasala himself adapted his own technique of rendering padyams in a mellifluous and original way, thus making them unique in his style of singing and thus making them incomparable. There are 100’s of padyams sung by sri ghantasala in telugu. To sing padyams, one has to have a great command in telugu language, and it is not so easy. I have heard 100’s of songs of mohd. rafi and ghantasala. Rafi had only sung songs and ghazals, whereas ghantasala has sung not only 1000’s of songsof all moods and genres, but many sanskrit slokas, padyams, classical compositions, besides being great music director. Ghantasala possessed a voice which was more metallic than kishore kumar and more melodious and majestic and flexibility than mohd. rafi in rendering different types of songs. His edge in carnatic music than mohd. rafi in his hindusthani, has created further edge to his melodious voice. Ghantasala is a trained carnatic musician par excellence. Rafi has sung in telugu also, i have heard him, but he is no where near ghantasala. Moreover, he spoiled the telugu language. NTR did introduce rafi in telugu, to see rafi’s talent, but had to bid goodbye to rafi, due to the wave of ghantasala in telugu. Ghantasala did not sing in hindi, because he did not know hindi, and was aware of the fact that if he sang, he would have also spoiled hindi language like rafi in telugu.
Mr. Vipul
I consider mohd. rafi as the greatest singer in bollywood, but he cannot be compared to the incomparable ghantasala of the south. If rafi is rafi, ghantasala is ghantasala. Truly speaking, a carnatic playback legend and hindusthani legend should not be compared. Both are greatest masters in their own fields. But i had to write about shri ghantasala, and his talent, since he was compared to rafi, the greatest in bollywood. Rafi is definitely the greatest in bollywood.
As Mr. MYK states in post 960, kishore kumar is miles behind mohd. rafi, and of course the great ghantasala. If you have not heard, shri ghantasala, i produce here under one of the greatest songs (siva sankari) sung by him. I request you to give a careful hearing to the entire song. This song has nothing to do with telugu language, but is completely classical and sanskritised version mixed with telugu blend and is simply a classical and incomparable composition in itself and perhaps none other than ghantasala could do justice to it. Here is the link for the great song.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M3hCRAQ2yJg
All the other readers can hear the above song. I assure, after hearing, friends will know what ghantasala is and what his range is and how easily his voice moves in singing greatest songs and his command over music.
I have seen rafi fans bringing some jhanak jhanak of manna dey as similar to above song of ghantasala, but sorry to state the song is not even 20%to the one rendered by ghantasala. Moreover, Mr. Vipul, Pl. go to mohd. rafi. com and analyse the views presented therein, by well trained musicians, namely mr. khan, mr. vasu, mr. ramakrishna etc. who have unequivocally agreed for ghantasala to be the greatest than mohd. rafi. All those are rafi fans, but they came to the conclusion of ghantasala being greater than rafi, only after carefully hearing sri ghantasala.
I Conclulde, Ghantasala, and Mohd. rafi, are the two greatest playback singers gifted by god almighty to the earth. May all friends enjoy the music of these great legends to their heartful content & be happy always. I close my issue. Good bye.
somebody mentioned that Rafi was singing flat.
Now please listen to this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SonO9TrHO1A
Here kk is live and he is flat and out of sur. Please tell me if m obeservation is correc or not.
Mr. Raghavan,
I respect your views about Ghantasala, as I do for Mr. Vitthal as well, but Rafi’s repertoire has much more variety than Ghantasala’s, his songs were tougher, and he had a better voice and range (in my view). The two can never be compared, because Rafi not only ruled his own mother tounge language, but the National Scene as well, whereas Ghantasala was confined to just Telegu. I have heard so many songs of Ghantasala and I have yet to find songs rendered by him that come anywhere near countless Rafi songs. The comparison is not fair, Rafi is miles ahead, its like comparing apples and oranges. I have read the comments on the Rafi site about the debate on Rafi and Ghantasala, and I doubt Rafi fans have changed their mind and said Ghantasala is better. Rafi fans have acknowledged that Ghantasala is a great singer, but he can never be a Rafi or come close to Rafi in any way possible. It’s not a fair comparison by any means. Why bring up the Bhagvad Gita renditon, when it doesn’t have anything to do with our discussion ?. It may be excellent, but there are countless Rafi songs that will make one forget where they are (using your words), and transport one into another world.
You are saying Ghantasala ruled the SI music scene, but are not mentioning TMS or PBS who also ruled their particular language, so to say Ghantasala ruled the whole scene is not correct, there were others there. Rafi on the other hand ruled the National scene, not a particular language, and he ruled a scene where there was much more competition compared to the South. Ghantasala, TMS, PBS etc. did not face as much competition in their respective languages, Rafi faced a challenge from many singers and came out on top and was able to rule for that long. The Telegu scene is confined to a smaller scale, you can’t compare this with the National Scene which is on a much bigger and grand scale in terms of everything.
The majority of musicans, MD’s, singers etc. North, South, East, and West as well as world-wide all consider Rafi to be the greatest of all time. Ghantasala is not mentioned in the same breath even though he was a great singer, but Rafi is in his own league and class.
Atleast you agree that Rafi was better than KK which is the obvious truth. Its a joke to compare KK or anyone to a giant like Rafi.
Ashu said
“Bhai mere…Rafi ko yaad kiya jaata hai….kyunki log bhool gae hai. Kishore ko bhulaya nahi ja sakata…..”
Reply: Why do u play wth words? Why do not you debate on facts? I want to learn more factual things from you and everyone here rather than fantasy.
By the way, What is your profession? Are you some religious guru? You seem to be very good in playing with words and creating delusion (that is what all religious gurus do) and ignore real comparison?
I am sure that you will reply to this message but do not give me information on kk’s patriotic songs and there by avoid discussing versatility of both singers. keep it up! I am enjoying anyways!
Ashu Ji,
Please do not turn a blind eye to the Youtube evidence that I presented to you in one of my previous posts. See carefully. Kishore looks so angry with himself for not having been allowed to sing even for himself. What an irony! He is so upset that he can’t even lip synch properly. My dear friend it’s hard to hide the truth in the modern world of technology. The following link will always serve you as a reminder about Rafi being the greatest. I hope better sense prevails this time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUw8AnSBPo&NR=1
Here is another link to Soham’s (In Dino fame from Life In a Metro) interview published in “The Hindustan Times”. His favourite is Rafi. He calls himself a die hard fan of Mohd. Rafi.
Rafi.http://hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=27943d59-1c05-404c-a8d7-01522293d331&&Headline=I+will+sing+in+my+own+voice%3a+Soham
I am not sure why are we comparing Ghantasala and Rafi. They are two different singers in different languages.
I did listen to ghnatasala’ song, telugu version of Chal ud ja re panchhi and I found Rafi’s version better. It is a personal choice. May be I understand Hindi better than Telugu.
I agree with Dhaniram that Rafi sang in so many languages and Ghantasala was mainly a lead singer in his own regional language.
I can’t really compare two of them as I have not heard Ghantasala enough. But assuming Ghnatasala is greatest South Indian singer and comparing Rafi to him also makes Rafi great. Why we are not comparing kk with Ghantasala? Is it because KK is just not good enough to get compared with him ?
Ashu, your thoughts?
BTW, please enhance my knowledge by teling us few more patriotic songs sung by KK and then we move on to next category.
All,
Rather than arguing on who sang for whom and who was number 1 actor etc, lets discuss on facts. Lets start the topic with VERSATILITY.
I know Ashu wil hate this topic, but to begin with lets start with PAtriotic songs sung by Rafi and KK and then we will move to next category.
I have following list.
KK
—-
1> Dekho veer jawano
2> …..
3> ….
Ashu, please fill up…
Rafi
—-
1> Janha daal daal per
2> Yeh Desh hai veer
3> KAr chale hum fia
4> Watan ki rah main
5> Watan pe jo fida hoga
6> Aye watan aye watan hum ko
7> Apni aazadi ko hum
8> Sarfaroshi ki Tammna
9> Mera chana hai apni marzi ka
10> Hum laye hai toofan se kishti nikal je
Rafi Fans.. please add more… and after that we will move to next category… How about Bhajans? I am sure Ashu will hate this catefgory as well.
Ashu,
Your lists of the BGM are truly FALSE. I’m not sure where you got your stats from but they are far from the truth. If you want to post, atleast post the truth for once. Naveen stated the truth, and you have yet to reply to my statement about Rafi ruling the BGM in the late seventies/early eighties as well as the period 1979-1981 (besides his ruling on the BGM before), so I will assume you have no reply for that.
Rafi’s rule over the scene, as well as his rule period in terms of years, in every way, was never matched by any other singer. Rafi was truly the King.
Vitthal,
Ghantasala may have enjoyed a huge fan following in the South, but Rafi’s fan following is much greater and world-wide. The Bhagvad Gita rendition doesn’t have anything to do with playback singing, so why are you bringing it up at all ?. Rafi was the most versatile singer and the greatest singer, this is not about composing or other fields. Why would you bring up other factors when we are only talking about singing ?. FYI Rafi also composed some albums as well, and contributed a lot to his songs by giving so many suggestions to MD’s, that was his genius. However, since singing was his profession, he didn’t need to compose for albums. Here is what Rafi had to say regarding this matter:
“In fact, producer-director S. Mukherjee had asked me to compose music for one of his films, sometime back. I turned down his offer because it is my firm belief that one should be perfect in only one field. Look at Talat Mahmood. He took up acting and after he could click neither as a singer nor as an actor.
The late Mukeshbhai took up production and lost heavily when the films he made flopped. If I were to agree to compose music for film today, the other music directors would start feeling that I might steal their tunes for my own films and hence they might even stop assigning me the job of singing for them.”
It doesn’t matter what Ghantasala rendered, you cannot compare him to Rafi at all, they’re poles a part. Ghantasala may be unique among SI singers, but he cannot surprass Rafi, and never will.
The word “collosus” was used in articles for Rafi when he passed away in 1980. You are comparing apples and oranges when you use this term and apply it to Ghantasala. Ghantasala didn’t sing for as many actors, made such a mark on the history of music, or ruled such a wide scene for such a long period with much more competition, compared to the Telegu scene where there was hardly any competition, and on a smaller scale. Ghantasala had competition from PBS and TMS in the South but they sang mostly in their respective languages. Ghantasala did not rule over the SI scene as a whole, like Rafi did over the National scene. You are only talking about Telegu music, and are confined to that. With Rafi you’re talking about the National scene, so you can’t compare at all.
When it comes to SI music, for me SPB and Yesudas will always be more versatile, because they have attempted much more types of songs than Ghantasala. I also feel they are better singers, and that is my view, you don’t have to agree with me. Ghantasala was a great singer no doubt, but was limited in his genres, and I feel there were others better than him not only in the South (as I mentioned SPB and Yesudas), but in general as well, with Rafi leading that pack as the best of them all.
I am not trying to rub my views at all, it seems you are doing that by comparing Ghantasala to Rafi. Rafi is regarded by the majority, including most SI personalities such as SPB, Yesudas, MSV, IR, Jayachandran etc. to be the first and last word in singing , no two ways about that. Even without looking at what others say, one can see the clear difference between the two.
Please don’t compare apples and oranges. Ghantasala may have been a great singer, and is regarded as a legend in the South, but he can never come close to Rafi. Rafi is the greatest and the benchmark. As IR said, “Rafi is Rafi”.
Correction:
The sentence in my last post should read as:
“I can list a thousand quotes by great personalities about Rafi.”
Ashu,
You are wrong, in the song “Tere Jaisa Bhai”, Rafi sang for Rishi and KK for Shashi, go and see the video again. In the rest of the songs KK playbacked for Rishi. You are wrong again, KK never had a higher percentage than Rafi in terms of singing for the lead actor.
I can list so many films of that time (including films that have KK singing in them too) where Rafi has sung for the lead actor, but I won’t because its a known fact that Rafi is sang for the lead actor in those films, and debating with you is hilarious. I think you have to enhance your knowledge big time, as all your examples and statements are foolish as usual.
Quoting Javed Akhtar doesn’t make one bit of a difference, I can list a thusand quotes by great personalities about Rafi. The K for Kishore show is a joke, and it also doesn’t make any difference. Again, please provide solid examples other than TV shows and other rubbish.
Your stats are flawed, you mentioned:
“As you know multi-starrer movie were in great demand during late 70s, Kishore was only choice for main male actor(more than 80%)”
80 % is a figure made up by you in your mind, and its far from the truth. I feel sorry that you are spreading false rumours on this site, but only you know why you’re doing that. Rafi was the first and only choice many times for lead actors in multi starrers and other films. I don’t understand your second actor theory. When its a multi-starrer, it means more than one star is in the film, and you can’t term Shashi or Dharmendra or others as second actors when they were lead actors.
Your list of BGM from 75-81 is again FALSE. Naveen stated the truth, and you have yet to reply to my statement about Rafi ruling the BGM from 1979-1981. How does Sargam have anything to do with the late eighties when it was released in 1979 ?.
LOL KK dominating Rafi from 65-68, only you would make such statments. For your info Rafi did dominate KK after 69, whether you want to accept it or not is your choice, but the truth is what it is. Don’t try and bring up the 60’s period in which KK was no where, when you can’t accept facts for what they are, especially the fact that Rafi did dominate KK after 69.
Dharmendra winning awards does not have anything to do with the topic, what are you trying to prove. He was always a lead actor, and was a huge star.
Your knowledge is lacklustre, its all full of false rumours and foolish statements, I feel bad for KK fans who have to listen to a lot of the nonsense you’re writing here. You don’t make a good case for KK at all, sorry to say that.
Vipul, My dear friend sudip,
here is text from Sayani’s interview:
————————————————–
Renowned compere Ameen Sayani sums it up. “He was perhaps the most
versatile singer that the Indian film industry has ever known. He
could handle comedy and pathos. And although he never had any formal
training, he could delve into classical songs as well,” says Sayani.
Then he adds, “I have compered almost all great singers on stage. He
not only sang and danced and pranced but also did somersaults on
stage. But while doing all this, he never went out of tune.”
—————————————————
Sudip,
On popularity…Hope you ahve heard songs from Saawariya (Title songs, Jab se tere Naina, and one more from Parthiv). greatest hit of the years. EVen after 21 yrs, people trying to imitate him, and fyi md was pyarelal(LP) cousin…
sudip mere dost…
Poll karane ki jaroorat hai kya????… Aise hi sab kuchh crysal clear hai..
1. Remix songs kis singer ke sabse jyada hai
2. Kis singer ke upper movie ban rahi hai
3. Majority greats kisko pasand karte hai:
1. Sachin Tendulkar 2. Dhoni 3. Shahrukh
(These are 3 great young indians….)
Note: 3rd point is more indivisual choice…..
Vikram, vikram….
I can tell u movie name in which Amitabh paid tribute to Rafi… 🙂
Movie name was “Kroadh”…There was Rafi night in which Amitabh played as guest apperance and sang “Rafi tu bahot yaad aaya”…There was fight sequence after this song…..Situation was “EK SHAAM RAFI KE NAAM” jo ki aaj bhi chalta hai…mumbai me….Is me koi great baat nahi. People hold seat to see amitabh bachhan not to hear song,. he played guest appearance to promote the film. I think he has done a great job by playin guest role. rafi was great singer, reminding him through a song by was great idea…
Bhai mere…Rafi ko yaad kiya jaata hai….kyunki log bhool gae hai. Kishore ko bhulaya nahi ja sakata…..
🙂 When i sent link where Manna Dey mentioned Kishore was best, then u people say he (Manna Dey) twist his comment as per situation. Pls. find Manna Dey interview link which i sent long back, He said Kishore was best….We had enough debate on that…Pls. go back few hundred blog back 🙂
I already commented on all ur doubt (u r no different rafi fan) in my blogs. But i would like to comment on followin:
u wrote:
When Kishore was singing for Jeetendra or Dharmendra they were far beyond their prime. It was the sheer magic of Rafi Sahab that propelled some of these actors to stardom. Kishore Kumar was never exclusive to Amitabh or Rajesh Khanna. Rafi has sung so many times for these two. Even Mukesh has sung for them
My reply:
Rafi was established as singer like mukesh and Manna Dey before Kishore.Rafi sang for all actors because he was already there in the industry as singer, even i can say Rafi was never exclusive to any actor. No singer can be exclusive to any actor, but one singer can sing majority of songs for an actor…
Here is few example:
1. Rafi was never exclusive to Dilip Kumar….Talat and Mukesh also playback for him because they were also established as singet those day
2. Mukesh was never exclusive to Raj Kapoor….Manna sang couple of songs
3. Rafi was never exclusive for Shammi Kapoor…manna, kishore sang couple of songs for him.
I can twist ur word like…rafi sang majority of songs for Shammi as Kishore sang majority of songs for Amitabh, Rajehs Khanna, Rishi Kapoor, as Mukesh sang majority of songs for Raj Kapoor….
So mere dost, establish singer always get chance to sing for an actor even though there is an exclusive voice for an actor.
As you know Amitabh is still alive…..but i am sure u might not be knowing that….Kumar sanu, Sonu Nigam, Abhijeet, Shankar and many other sang for Amitabh….I think i have already answered ur baseless logic.
vikram,
Mere dost…I believe in my repository and don’t visit YoTUbe…
I have enough collection of my fav. songs in form of Casetter, CDs, DVDs.
So, i don;t visit YouTube…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbHCTNFNK5k&feature=related
someone was talking about Rafi as flat singer! Lsten to this one and decide. A semi classical gem by Rafi saab.
Mr. MYK, Mr. Vitthal and Mr. Gani,
I have seen most of the arguments presented by all of you. I fully correspond to the views of Shri Vitthal ji, i.e. shri ghantasala is the greatest playback singer the country has ever produced. Only persons well versed in telugu language as well as music can know the uniqueness of Shri ghantasala. I have carefully heard the Bhagavad Gita by Shri Ghantasala which was music directed by himself, it is simply a divine and mellifluous/melodious rendering directly hitting at heart making you forget this world. I am sure no such record or presentation exists anywhere.
Mohd. rafi is the greatest playback singer in bollywood. But he cannot be compared to the unmatchable and incomparable ghantasala. Ghantasala had rendered 1000’s of songs of all type of genres and moods, devotional, romantic, tragedy, comedy etc. with complete perfection under the greatest music directors in south. Besides under his own music direction, he has delivered songs and films which ran for 100’s of days. This is not to say mohd. rafi had not, he too had great achievements in his own range, but rafi cannot be similar to ghantasala or near him when presenting/singing the ragas in their classical peak. Ghantasala had his own style and speciality which is of special originial beauty and i have noticed that his voice in some songs is even more melodious and beautiful than instruments. OK, i do not want to argue any further. I request mohd. rafi fans, for more information to log in to mohd. rafi.com and refer to the 100’s of arguments there between ghantasala and rafi. Many Mohd. rafi fans after hearing ghantasala have changed their views of rafi being greatest and their views can be read therein.
There are some well trained musicians also there who have concluded shri ghantasala to be the greatest. Even Mr. Binu nair of rafi foundation states, ghantasala ji is no. 1 in telugu, and rafi sahab is unparalleled in bollywood. This holds good.
Anyhow, i agree to Mr.MYK’s view that mohd. rafi was certainly greater than kishore kumar. Kishore kumar had a good voice, but since people wanted some change, kishore kumar got a good fan following. Rafi’s voice had a mellifluous effect similar to ghantasala in the south, and continues to enjoy huge fan following greater than kishore kumar even date.
Refer to my post 1057
Couple of things Ashu Bhai:
1) Correction: Somvar Ko Ham from Apnapan was not in top 16 but top 32 of BGM.
2) Please excuse my typos in my post
Thanks
Ashu forgot one more movied where Rafi sang for Amit — Suhaag.
I am not sure what we all are trying to prove. Lets judge the two singer based on vocal quality.
I mean I hate Bharat Bhushan but I love his songs. How does it matter on whom Song is picturized?
Vitthal, Are we comparing Rafi and ghantasala or Rafi and kk? What do you have to say about Rafi-kk comparison?
Ashuji,
You say in your 1023 that you never said that :jo best hota hai wohi bikta hai.Will you please re-read your 976 where you have said exactly these words and which you yourself deny in 1023.I would like your response.
Your and Waz’s hypothesis about Abhiman has been forcefully punctured by me.All the arguments proffered by you and other Kishoreans have been cut into pieces by most of the analysts on this forum.And it is not because of any extraordinary skill in argument on our part.Perhaps you are a better debater than all of us.But Rafi’s supremacy is so tangible that it make our task very easy whereas you have to labour hard to invent something in favour of your icon like the farcical Abhiman argument and like eating your own words as in 976 and 1023.
For All
To provide us all comic interlude Ashu has dreamed that Rafi can’t express emotions adquately.The fact is only Rafi can express emotions not just adequately but perfectly.Babul ki duayen leti ja,ja tujhko sukhi sansaar mile.I have seen hundreds of people in tears when this song is played even when there is no wedding qoing on.No better tribute in the form of a song has been paid to Gandhiji than Suno suno ai dunya walo Bapu ki yeh amar kahani.Watan ki rah pe watan ke naujawan shaheed ho is packed with patriotic emotion as Bari der bhai Nand Lala teri rah takein Brijbala.There are emotions of all types in Rafi’s songs.Kishore’s voice was,on the other hand,loud,heavy and coarse,iincapable of expressing any kind of emotions.
And one of the saddest gazals ever written is Bahadur Shah Zafar’s:Na kisi ki aankh ka noor hoon,na kisi ke dil ka chirag hoon.And this gazal has been sung to perfection by Rafi.Ashu,what are your views about this gazal?And I have heard this gazal sung by other gazal singers as well but all fade before Rafi.Ashu,Sudip challenged you to cite two thumris sung by Kishore;I challenge you to cite a couple of immortal gazals like na kisi ki aankh ka noor hoon sung by Kishore.I know you will not address this question because your speciality lies in raising frivolous points.
Sudip, I think there is no disagreement between you and me regarding light singing in movies.For this reason Rafi’s songs sung for Shammi are acceptable as situational requirements but in terms of pure music they are deficient.That is why though I am a great fan of Rafi,I give him 80 to 90 percent marks in terms of pure quality of music.I give Mukesh and Talat almost hundred percent marks not because they were greater than Rafi but because they sang fewer songs and almost all of them are very great.Neither Talat nor Mukesh reaches the heights of Rafi at his best.Talat of course is unique for having sung Mirza Galib.I give only 10 to 20 percent marks to Kishore.Yoodling etc are mere gimmicks and of no worth in enhancing the quality of music.In my college days there were four or five boys who used to do it very well.It just requires a bit of practice.No good singer would waste his time in practising a useless thing like this.Years ago a girl named Milan Singh used to appear in TV entertainment shows and sing in about ten male voices.It didn’t make her a singer,much less a great singer.Such things are alright for momentary party entertainment but of no other value.
I have a feeling that Ashu argues most of the time for the sake of argument.He claims to be a fan of Rafi also and then makes the preposterous assertion that without orchestration Rafi’s voice would sound like that of Suman Kalyanpur.This from someone who claims to have knowledge of music.Maine shayad tumhein pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai is without orchestration and he should know it.
For God’s sake let Ghantasalaji rest in peace.He never sang ghazals,qawallis etc.He never ventured out of his native language.Rafi’s mother tongue was Punjabi and he sang wonderful songs in Punjabi.But he went on to dominate the Hindi film music scene and also sang in regional languages.Whereas Rafi sang even Telugu songs,Ghantasala didn’t sing any Punjabi songs.It is unfair to compare a small time singer to an all time singer and thereby to make the former a scapegoat of one’s whims.
Ashu Bhai,
Ref 1045
Please don’t fret and fume.I hope you meant “pity” and not “pitty”. Sorry for picking at you here but then you aren’t making a lot of sense especially when when it comes to discuss factual things. I again maintain that you had some good points all the while discussing with folks with a different stand than you. With no malice towards you here let’s see how many factual errors you have made in post 1045:
1) Sargam song was on top in 1980 and not 1981(as pointed by you) on Binaca. The same song also featured towards the latter half of 1979 countdown as well.
2) The top song of Apnapan was again “Aadmi Musafir Hai”.It was a Rafi-Lata song and not a Lata only song.It was the top male song of 1978.So your arguement is again based on figment of your imagination rather than any fact. And if think they needed Rafi for Apnapan as it was female dominated,let me also remind you that also needed Kishore for the same Apnapan for Somvar Ko Ham Mile which was also a hit song (featured somewhere in top 16 of Binaca annual).
3) In Aasha, true Lata’s solo was the most popular song of the movie but the entire album was a hit as well.There were Rafi songs from the movie that hit the charts.
4) In Caravan , the top ranking song on Binaca was Asha’s song.Kishore’s solo was also up in rank although there are better Kishore songs that year that didn’t feature in the list.Finally let me tell you that Rafi duets from Carvan also had made it to charts.
It is not necessary that all the hit songs of the movie are featured on annual charts. Do you that Main Ho Mr Anthony Gonzalves from AAA was not even in top 40 of Binaca that year.Isn’t that a everlasting hit song from Kishore and from that movie.
I am not going to go over Pran,Amitabh and Dharam argument at the momemt.Let’s see first if the above clarifies some of the mis-conceptions that you had.
Thanks again
naveen
Manna says there is nothing much to sing in kishore’s songs and he rates Rafi as the best. That is what he told me when I met him in 1995. It was just my luck that he spent about 3 hours with me and my parents. Thank you Manna sir!
Sudip, I did listen to one of them and it is yodelling (one from Raju Guide).
I will listen to next one later.
Vikarm, In those days kk was more into acting than singing jence he never got time to sing, otherwise you mention any type song just any (classical, semi classical, ghazal, patriotic, Bhanjans, quwallis, folk, high pitch) and kk will dominate Rafi. Check the history man or tell me where you find Rafi superior to kk in any of above categories. Please make sure you provide enough examples to support your claim if you have any.
Ashu,
I don’t get your second lead or first lead logic. Dharmendra has never played second fiddle to anyone. He was as big as Amitabh, and still is. It’s another matter that he is not doing as many films. Your analysis has inadvertently proved that in fact Mohd. rafi was the greatest as he playbacked for Dilip Kumar (there has never been anybody bigger than him), a fact to which even Amitabh and Shahrukh Khan agree wholeheartedly. By the same yardstick you have also proved about Rafi being better then Kishore Kumar as he sang for him a number of times. Dev Anand, Shammi Kapoor, Shashi kapoor, Jeetendra, Rishi Kapoor, Raaj Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, Bishwajeet, Joy Mukherjee, Dilip Kumar, Dharmendra and a host of others were all lead actors. One thing they all had in common was their lip synching to Rafi songs in their heydays. Rafi was the voice of young and suave Dev. He latched on to Kishore Kumar when he became a weirdo in the 70’s and started producing those horrible flicks that nobody wanted to see. When Kishore was singing for Jeetendra or Dharmendra they were far beyond their prime. It was the sheer magic of Rafi Sahab that propelled some of these actors to stardom. Kishore Kumar was never exclusive to Amitabh or Rajesh Khanna. Rafi has sung so many times for these two. Even Mukesh has sung for them. Have you ever heard Amitabh paying tribute to Kishore Kumar in a movie? He did that for Rafi in the song “Mohd. Rafi Tu Bahut Yaad Aaya”.
Here is a link to Manna Deys interview with Shekhar Gupta, Edito-in-chief of the very well respected and widely read daily, The Indian Express.
http://www.indianexpress.com/india-news/full_story.php?content_id=57205&spf=true
When asked about his contemporaries, calls Mohd. Rafi as the icon of playback singing. In fact, he does not even mention other singers in his reponse. Shekhar had to ask him a follow-up question (What about Mukesh and Kishore Kumar?). In response to another question about present day singers he says that Kishore Kumar clones are doing well and in the same breath adds- there was nothing much to sing in Kishore Kumar songs. I think Manna Dey is a better judge on playback singing than you and me or for that matter anybody else on this forum. I have a request to you to not quote obscure sources to prove your point. Rafi fans have always provided reliable evidence to support their viewpoints.
You rave and rant so much about what Asha Has to say about Kishore Kumar. Here is a link to her interview again with Shekhar Gupta. When she talks about contribution to film music, she only mentions Lata and Rafi.
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=236216
She has been situational all her life. She would say different things to different people to keep afloat her desire to stay in the news and further her cause. She made a big deal of Himesh saying that RD Burman was nasal. What was wrong in his statement? Ofcoursre he was nasal. The way Asha responded to it was utter disgusting. She wanted to slap Himesh for saying what he said. If she is so worried about people stating the truth, then she should refrain from spreading lies about Rafi. Please don’t quote Asha as she has vested interests. In the same interview she also lies about her relationship with her mentor OP Nayyar, the guy who made her. She is a habitual lier. I am glad that she despises remixes, a point that you were making to prove Kishore’s greatness.
Vipul,
Here are the stats as per Geet Kosh:
1977 – Rafi: 101, Kishore: 147
1978 – Rafi: 91, Kishore: 122
1979 – Rafi: 84, Kishore: 77
1980 – Rafi: 265, Kishore: 126
Rafi’s 1980 totals include the songs that were released after 1980 but recorded before he passed away. Look at the difference in songs in the year 1980. Also they were pretty much even in these four years in terms of songs except for 1980. Also, if you take stats for the whole decade (1970-1980), Rafi and KK have sung almost the same number of songs.
Also, take into consideration what happened on the BGM from 1977 until 1979. Both Rafi and Kishore had many hits and as Naveen pointed out, all the top songs of those years were of Rafi. Then look at what happens between 1979 and 1981, it is mostly a Rafi show all the way on the BGM, very little of Kishore. Anyone who followed the BGM TRENDS during that time or who was a regular listener of the BGM will know this. Those who don’t know about this should refrain from making ignorant comments.
So when Rafi passed away on July 31st, 1980, he was the top singer. Had he lived, he would have continued to dominate just like he did all those years in HFM.
Kishore’s reign as the top singer was only for about four years, you can’t compare this with Rafi’s regin for all those years including after in the late seventies to early eighties, before he passed away.
Mr.MYK sir,
I do not agree with your views. In fact they are your own personal views. You have not covered my points regarding the fan following enjoyed by ghantasala today, his bhagavad gita rendition (no such record exists in entire hindusthan) and this has been confirmed by all major musicians.
Another point. Rafi cannot be greatest than ghantasala nor versatile. Ghantasala was a great music director also having composed for over 125 films in the southern languages. Ghantasala had rendered 100s of padyams (a unique verses sung in dramatic style and only part of telugu language) where he is simply incomparable. No singer from the south, even spb , jesudas or the great balamuralikrishna in their entire life have been able to render padyams even equal to 50% of ghantasala. The padyam rendition can be analysed only by people adept in telugu language. Do you know TMS is called as tamil ghantasala and p b srinivas has referred voice of ghantasala as impregnable voice. What does these quotations mean pl.
You can confirm the above points from any musician, spb or jesudas or anybody else from the south. The above facts makes ghantasala unique among the southern singers.
Sir, i am sorry for your views on colossus. I request you to kindly read the Hindu paper of feb. 11 2003, on a tribute to ghantasala. wherein, the word colossus is repeated many times. You can read illayaraja quotes there on ghantasala also. The article states, never music was never in so much harmony as during ghantasala’s time. ghantasala was indeed a colossus (you can confirm this from any southern playback singer). Similarly, mohd. rafi too was.
For your kind information, spb and jesudas indeed sang along with ghantasala, but could not match him at any point of time and had to quit from the telugu field in the late 60’s and 70’s. Pl. do not be under the impression that spb and jesudas were singers after ghantasala. Certainly not. SPB got recognition after 6 years of passing away of ghantasala though spb was in the telugu field for over 15 years earlier. Hardly 10 to 20 songs spb could sing during the tenure of ghantasala, that too with shakiness and great difficulty. And jesudas songs in Sri Krishna satya, (wherein ghantasala had rendered melliflous songs) are no where near ghantasala. Telugu music and songs have never been the same after passing away of ghantasala and cannot be in future.
As rafi is regarded as greatest singer in bollywood, ghantasala is also regarded as greatest and unique in south , not only by his million fans till today but also by other playback singers. You can confirm this fact from spb or jesudas or illayaraja themselves. Without confirming kindly do not try to rub your views pl.
Here we are comparing Rafi to everone. Rafi is compaed to Ghantasala.
Raf i is compared to Manna when it comes to classical. Rafi is compared to Suresh Wadkar and Anup Jalota when it comes Bhajans and devotional songs.
Rafi leads the pack when it comes to Patriotic songs. Rafi is compared to Jagjeet Singh and Mehendi Hasan when it comes to Ghazals. Rafi is compared to Mukesh for sad songs. I mean you find Rafi in every category.
KK is not as versatile as Rafi to appear in every category (forget comparing).
Ashu, I think with my limited knowledge of music, I feel Rafi is far far ahaed of kk in terms of versatility. Do you agree?
Please let me know.
Ashu:
Kishore ka popularity mein itna bharosa hai to, why don’t you take a poll here if the two Rafi songs are yodeling? Dekhte hai kitne log (including Kishore fans) agree with you?
They are indeed yodeling and perfect too. Anyone who understands music will tell you so.
Ashu,
Here is the link that I forgot to add in my previous post. Judge for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUw8AnSBPo&NR=1