An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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I know exactly what you mean by the office routine 🙂 So many fun topics and songs to discuss yet so much work and so little time!
Thank you Smitha for the kind words. Yep, the song from Chengez Khan is a great example. I know exactly by what the office routine 🙂
There are a few points I want to briefly clarify. The result of “Maine Kya Zulm Kiya Tha” (and other select examples) can also be a combination of all possbilities being present that I mentioned. Some of it *may* be contributed to Rafi’s layered voice as you describe, some of it may be the MDs taking Rafi to the limits, and some it maybe Rafi’s decision on how to emote for the particular moment. The distribution is going to vary for the song in question. It’s no secret that SJ loved high pitch songs. I can easily imagine them asking Rafi to make that jump by design of the composition in that particular line. As Smitha said, Rafi’s voice did several things which it was not supposed to be doing. Nevertheless, I’m not denying that there are aspects or situations where Rafi’s voice is going face an uphill task. No voice is going to be optimal for every spectrum of music. Even the great Lata is yelling in “Tasveer Teri Dil Mein”. I’m not saying that every time there is a “struggle” it’s all because of the MD or just Rafi emoting for a particular situation. I’ve quickly revised myself “Teri Zulfon Se Judaii” to say that the result was a combination of factors and not just one factor as I seemed to suggest last time.
Lastly, I forgot to mention that Lata’s Bengali solo version of “Tasveer Teri Dil Mein” was recorded and release one year before the Hindi version. No doubt that composition was tailor made for Lata the first time and composed with her in mind right from the inception. IIRC Salil made some modification (increasing the scales?) for the Hindi version too.
We’ll get into the details later. We’ll bring in more examples of fast switching. We haven’t even discussed the fun stuff like the different sub varieties within genres that these greats had or how well they suited different heroes.
Smitha,
I never said that ONLY technical criteria should be used to judge a playback singer. My post was to explain WHY I considered technical aspects to be more measurable than non-technical aspects.
You said that another more well-trained musician than myself could perhaps find out more technical points regarding sur, taal, swaras etc. that might disprove what I feel. Sure, but my point still stands because that musician is ALSO rating the singer based on something that can be measured – like sur, taal, swaras etc.
Now, let me try and explain why the non-technical aspects cannot be easily measured. Take this Rafi song, for instance, “Babul ki duayen lethi jaa” from “Neel Kamal”. Rafi fans love the way he breaks down towards the end of the song, while others feel very uncomfortable with that. So, who is right or wrong ? Nobody. THAT is something that cannot be measured. And that makes it subjective.
BUT, for a playback singer to be called really good, they need to be both good singers (meet the technical requirements) and good playback singers (infuse the song with the relevant emotions). You need both. And if you can do this for both regular film songs as well as the heavy classical songs, bully for you. That’s where Lata and Asha outshine the rest.
Hi Manish,
I am really sorry that you had to make such a post. Believe me, my post was not an emotional one or one out to tarnish Rafi.
What I essentially wanted to convey to Smitha was that every singer/playback singer has his strengths and weaknesses. The same goes for Rafi and Kishore. There are things that Rafi can do which Kishore or any other male singer could not, or rather would not have been able to do. But the vice versa is true as well.
My assertion is that, in the end and as a whole, they are very much comparable. Smitha disagreed with me on that point and so I had to tell her why I think she is wrong.
I hate nitpicking on great singers (remember we are talking about elite level talent here) but when some fans of Rafi (definitely not you, but most of them on the Rafi forum) give off the vibes that it is a sacrilege to even compare Kishore to Rafi, I cannot help but speak out. I will not say that I am the most trained or technically knowledgeable in vocal music, but I have been a listener (and for some time, a student too) to Hindustani Classical Music (HCM) for most of my life and am confident enough to say that I can identify an intrinsically great singer when I hear one. I’m not speaking out for Kishore just because he’s a fellow Bengali or because he’s my favourite.
There is another old acquaintance of mine from RMIM (who’s been absconding since a few years) – Rajan Parrikar. He’s as knowledgeable about HCM as anybody I’ve seen (PlUS he’s not from Bengal or a Bengali). He was a student of the eminent classical musician Pandit Ramashreya Jha (who was also the mentor of the talented Shubha Mudgal). Parrikar is a big, big fan of Kishore. He had met Kishore personally in Goa as he was growing up, and he said it was amazing how “easily” his voice just latched on to the sur and never left it. He said you had to listen to him directly, face-to-face, to appreciate how smooth his singing really was. And mind you, when Rajan met Kishore, I think in 1985 or 1986, Kishore was way past his peak and was a couple of years from passing away.
Coming back to your post, yes, I did compare “Koi hamdam na raha” to “Man tarpat hari darshan”. I will accept your statement that Rafi’s rendition in the part that we discussed was intentional. In any case, there are a couple of other parts in the song where Rafi’s transition could have been slightly better. In one of the antaras that goes ” Tum.Re dwaar khada ek jogi” followed by an alaap, Rafi, in the alaap, shoots off where he should have gone a little more slowly. The effect is a little jarring.
However, my main motive then was to show how easily people dismiss “Koi hamdam na raha” because the song doesn’t call any attention to itself. It is not disguised as a classical song but it covers a range of about 2 octaves – about the same as “Man tarpat hari darshan”, and it’s rendered beautifully and could not have been bettered. The same goes for many other songs of Kishore.
All the Rafi songs that you have highlighted are good ones. If you haven’t heard, I also highly recommend songs from “Babar” and also “Aaj ki raat badi shokh badi natkhat hai” from
“Nai Umar Ki Nai Fasal” – both by Roshan.
“Suhaani raat dhal chuki” is one of my favourites of Rafi, as is “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”. All these songs show Rafi’s ability to go from a low pitch to high pitch very quickly (and in case you missed it, I already highlighted this as one of Rafi’s strengths). But the crucial point that I made in my post, and something you and Smitha have overlooked, is that all these songs where Rafi showed off his immense range were songs where he had to sing out aloud, where he could “project” the fullness of his amazing voice.
Where I think he struggled a bit was in songs where he had to vary his pitch while maintaining a low amplitude or loudness (Talat style, you could say). When Rafi had to go to a high scale, he was more comfortable when he was allowed to simultaneously increase the volume or “loudness”, that is when he was allowed to project his “full” voice. It was in songs of the Talat mould where he struggled. And that was one of the main reasons why he didn’t really shine above the others as long as that style of singing was in vogue.
Listen to this Talat song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_BonYRC90 . Listen to how Talat sings “Raat kat.Thi nahin din guzar.Tha nahin …”, esp. when he finishes off with “zakhm aise diya hai ke bhartaaaa nahiiiiiiin”. He goes to a high pitch without increasing the “volume” or “loudness” in any way.
Also, I think there is some misunderstanding where we talk about switching of registers. I was thinking of something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrIU1Mk4qEk
Listen to how Kishore sings “baaaazi” in “Ishq ki baazi seedhi baazi” at 2:10. He not only switches across octaves, but touches other notes along the way. It is very difficult to pull it off UNLESS you take a pause after “seedhi” and before you start “baazi”, which Kishore DOES NOT take. Those are the kind of things that I immediately notice.
About “Tasveer teri dil mein”, Sudip did point out that Lata had a resting place on “i” in “na’i’non”. But the thing is that that doesn’t help much because she does the major part of the climb in the ‘non’ part of “nainon” – in other words after the “nai” part, so she is not using the ‘i’ to rest between the climbs. It’s not like she starts the climb with “nai”, use the vowel ‘i’ to rest and then continue the rest of the climb. However, I did not wish to correct him because I didn’t want to continue along that track.
I disagree with fans using the opinions of other eminent musicians to buttress their claims about why one singer is the greatest. And I am sure you said you disagree with it too.
In any case, I will not entirely disagree with Salil when he says he thinks that Rafi is the greatest singer because he certainly has the case to be called that. However, it is NOT something that is really as certain or clearcut as believed. We also have Biswas, CR, RDB etc. say the same about Kishore. So, where does that take us ? Nowhere.
Once again I reiterate that we are talking about elite level talents here, so we have to nitpick a bit, and it’s all relative. It’s not like they are absolutely bad in their weak areas. It’s all in good spirits. So, going back to the low pitch song that you have given me, “Itni badi duniya jahan itna bada mela”, he does well but he doesn’t do as well as he does in songs of regular or high pitch. There is a certain huskiness that inadvertently creeps in and you can hear it when he tails off with “akela” in “magar main kitna akela”. Kishore avoids that huskiness and that’s what I meant by “definition”. I didn’t mean about voice going off-key or anything like that.
Here is a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQMjBBOVOM
This is an awesome song sung by and composed by Kishore. Listen to how he tails off at “kitne” in “Jis path par dekhe kitne” starting from 00:52. There is no huskiness.
So, to end this post, all I want to say that the weaknesses I speak of are relative, not absolute, and that my whole post was to explain why Kishore, on the whole, is very comparable to Rafi.
However, I agreed with Sudip on one thing. And that is, the “impact” that Rafi had on classes as well as masses is greater than Kishore’s. Mind you, this has nothing to do with their actual abilities, rather it is how what they did “touched” the classes as well as masses. To this day, Kishore, to my utter dismay, is more of a mass singer. It’s a pity that 95% of so called Kishore’s fans glorify him based on his 1970’s output when the creme de la creme of his songs were from the 1940’s to early 1960’s.
Mr.Manish:
Wow! It was some post. You have spoken on behalf of all the Rafi admirers. Please don’t be sorry for being musically untrained. You are musically more enlightened than many of us who are formally trained.
I am with you on Rafi’s ‘yelling'(?). There are instances when he yelled before reaching top rishabh and there are instances where he is restrained above this particular note, whether the switch of notes is sudden or not. Actually the top rishabh is routine for Rafi, his upper range was almost an octave higher. He touches the ‘sa’ of the next octave in a song form ‘Chengiz Khan’ which goes ‘mohabbat zinda rahti hain…..’. He is also near that territory when he reaches the crescendo in the Mughal-e-azam song.
I agree, partly and theoritically, with Mr.Bose when he says that Rafi’s voice type (or character) was a handicap when it comes to rapid switches of notes. But then Rafi’s voice did several things which it was not supposed to be doing; switch of notes is one of them. I would love to add on some more songs where the smooth and effortless switch of registers is on display, but am quite tied up with office routine.
Mr.Bose:
I am not disputing the fact that technical aspects are objective. What I object to is your argument that the technical factors are the ONLY objective criteria. If that is the case, how do you explain your own *Manna Dey could sing as well, probably even better, in the classical variety but his voice lacked the sweetness and wistfulness of Rafi* or *Further, Rafi’s classical training meant that his voice had the right texture and “pronounciation” for light classical songs*. Tell me, were you being objective or not with these statements.
The point I am trying to make is that every thing involved in singing or any art form has both objective as well as subjective aspects. It is not just the technical or tangible or provable things that are objective and it is not just the abstracts that are subjective. When you (I mean Mr.Bose) say something like Singer X has sung a song with perfect sur, taal etc, even that is not a 100% objective statement because a better trained musician could still find out a thing or two lacking in the singer’s sur, taal, tempo, voice control and scores of other technical aspects. Again, when you speak about someone’s voice sweetness, texture etc, I don’t think you are venturing into an entirely subjective realm.
Here is that low scale song of Mohammed Rafi from Toofan. Sounds very clear and defined to me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yAk6mBxjU
Surajit wrote: “The effortlessness with which Kishore moves from register to register is unmatched. No, Rafi couldn’t match it. Like I said, Rafi’s voice is layered and thick and that was a handicap when he had to switch registers suddenly. So, there are instances where Rafi had a tendency to yell when he goes above top Rishabh because he couldn’t switch it with the desired control.”
I don’t have formal knowledge of music to get into details of precise notes or scales so I’ll speak in general terms on what my ears detect. I realize you are referring to very specific parameters (top Rishabh) so I apologize in advance if I bring examples that fall outside your reference.
In the past you compared “Koi Hamdam Na Raha” to “Man Tardpat Hari Darshan”. Rafi the playback singer is getting underrated here. The struggle that you sense is not him struggling to switch to a higher scale but Rafi’s conveying of emotions and acting out the character’s “crying out” as the scene require. This “struggle” fits the scene brilliantly IMO and that’s the work of a great playback singer.
Now I’ll give you a similar example for which I feel differently. I greatly enjoy “Teri Zulfon Se Judai” for all but one line: “Maine Kya Zulm Kiya Aap Kaffa Ho Bhaite”. I find this more than needed for the particular scene. However, the struggle or “yell” is not Rafi struggling to rise in scales but instead his conveying of emotions and acting out in the line. This possibility makes sense given the lyrics of that precise line in question and hearing the ease with which Rafi sings the immediate lines. For that single line, either he made an artistic decision in conveying emotion that I subjectively don’t respond too OR perhaps the direction for that scene was altered after the song recording.
Let’s go to songs where Rafi rises quickly to a high scale and remains in perfect control. “Meri Zindagi Mein Aate” from Kanyadaan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWOrusfx4d8
I absolutely love this song.
“Ke Baar Mil Chuki Hain Yeh Haseen Haseen Nighahen” 2:05, 2:16
“Wohi Beqaraaria Hai…Na Mile Kushi Ka” 2:27
“Mujhe Kaaaa Gharaz Hai Kisise” 3:23, 3:36
“Hai Meriiii Nazar Mein Phee Ke” 3:43
“Yeh Khushi Rahe Salamat Yunhi” 4:51
“Jise Sunnnnn Rahi Yeh Duniya” 5:00
Next one needs no introduction: “Suhani Raat Dhal Jhuki”. He’s in perfect control as he sings, “Sitaaaarrrreeeeee Api Roshni Lutta Lutta Ke So Gahay.”
“Insaaf Ka Mandir Hai Yeh”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XKMX31cass
1:01 Hai Paon Tereeee Hai Paon Tereee
2:10 “Bhaghwan Bhi Usko Kabhi Na Maaf Kharega Yeh soch leeeeeeee…Yeh Soch Leeeeee…..”
GENIUS! Yes, the song is sung slowly but he does goes to a very high pitch within one or two words. He is in perfect control and registers so smoothly.
I repeat my disclaimer and move on with another favorite of mine: Bura Mat Suno from Aaye Sawan Jhoom Ke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ1nep4E6D8
1:48 “Zamane Mein Sub Zindagi Yun Guzare, Zamane Mein Sab Zindagi Yun Guzare”
2:05 “Gulista Mein Rehti Jaise Bahare, Yeh Kahani Yehi Hai, Zindagi Yehi Hai”
At 2:05 he suddenly raises his pitch. I don’t know if he goes above top Rishab but hear how CRISP, clear, and full his voice is as he sings quickly and goes to a higher scale.
Even if you don’t buy my view of Rafi expressing emotions instead of struggling, the *fact* remains that MDs designed compositions to take Rafi to his limits. “Ae Mohabbat Zindabaad” is a perfect example of that. Rafi is screaming in the end exactly as he is supposed to do by design of the composition and as directed by the film scene. If Rafi had an even higher vocal range so as to not appear screaming in that composition, Naushad would have raised the scales even higher to make *sure* that Rafi was screaming. It’s actually pretty inspiring as that bard sings about the immortality of love in front of the thousands of Akbar’s soldiers.
I’ll bet that you were thinking of a song like “Teri Zulfon Se Judaii” when making your comment. Rafi was a versatile singer who had many different types of approaches within single genres or types of situations. Some of Rafi’s critics try to generalize and say Rafi would “yell” during sad songs. He has a lot of high pitch songs where he doesn’t “yell” as I’m sure you are aware like Bade Bewafa Hai Yeh, Gham Uthane Ke Liye, Yeh Duniya Yeh Mehfil, etc. and dozens of different sub types of sad songs e.g. the quiet and introvert “Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon”, the extrovert “Dil Jo Na Keh Sakah”, songs from Guide, etc. It’s easy to take a sub category of his renditions (as he’s so versatile) and find something you (or I) don’t like. Different strokes for different folks. There are many who don’t like “Dil Khe Jharokein Mein” as its very loud but IMO it suit the scene perfectly and it caters to its particular audience. It has a different kind of effect and purpose than “Khush Rahe Tu Sada”. I could not have had “Man Tadpat Hari Darshan” any other way than it was rendered.
Surajit wrote, “became coarse and husky. It loses it’s definition.”
Here’s a song where Rafi sings very low notes and retains good clarity. Itni Bari Duniya Mein Akela, Toofan; 1963, Chitragupta. I will be happy to share this by e-mail to anyone interested. If you listen to the song at home, turn the volume high otherwise you’ll miss certain syllables or notes that are indeed there. This 1963 recording has low audio resolution and does not do justice to low scale singing. I can accept the possibility that low scale is not Rafi’s best territory. My only point is that he is more than competent in this area. I don’t need Rafi to be best everything. He is well rounded overall and extremely good at his own, original, unique trademark to his songs.
You talked about Tasveer Teri Dil Mein. I agree with your assessment of where the disagreement lay. Salil wanted Rafi to make the jump in one note and Rafi did it in two. Sudip aptly pointed out that Lata had different, friendly vowels in “nainon ka kajra” whereas Rafi did not in “jahan hai kadam”. I’m not here to make excuses or rationalizations for Rafi as his talent and contributions stand for themselves. When Chetan Vinchi (really nice guy) pointed out to me some shortcomings in “Baat Chalat” I had to accept. I’m here for the truth. Nevertheless, this is an incident of an artistic disagreement or misunderstanding and these things do happen. I don’t think anyone was wrong here. I spoke to someone who hosted Salil for dinner in the early 90s. Here’s what he said:
“He didn’t say that they argued, just that Rafi kept on getting frustrated that Salil was asking for something that Rafi thought he was doing right but Salil just couldn’t get him to sustain the high notes the way Lata was doing it.
The story was told mainly for the point of saying that Lata had tremendous range. It wasn’t meant as a knock on Rafi. More to say that Lata had such range that even the great Rafi couldn’t match her in that instance. Also, the story was told in the lens of what is your favorite song (though he didn’t say that one was, just that it was probably the most difficult one to sing).
I think Salil made it sound like this was the ONLY song that Rafi ever had trouble singing. In no way should you take the story as Salil was taking a swipe at Rafi. This is the case of the best male and male vocalists ever singing the hardest song Salil wrote and that this was the only time he ever saw a chink in Rafi’s armor.
In other words, listening to Salil talk about Rafi, I do not doubt that Rafi was the best vocalist of all time, although I’ll stay short of saying that Salil thought so as well – I think he thought very highly of some of the other Bengali singers (Kishore, Mukesh).”
Excuse his mistake by mentioning Mukesh as a Bengali singer. I’m not sure if it was possible to do what Salil was asking given the lyrics Rafi had to sing. Even if it was, I personally appreciate Rafi’s 2 note climb better than Lata’s one note climb because it makes a noticeable difference in the aesthetics of the singing. Perhaps Rafi felt that his approach was correct. Needless to say, Rafi had the knowledge of music to technically understand what Salil was asking so their difference had to be a matter of interpretation. I don’t really know. Nevertheless you may retort that we advertise Rafi as someone who could meet the MD’s exact demands. In that case, I’d look at the song from the perspective that the host clarified for me. Salil’s toughest song and the only time there was a chink in Rafi’s armor. I wouldn’t try to generalize Tasveer Teri Dil Mein. Salil certainly did not.
Smitha,
Two things I didn’t elaborate because they seemed implicit to the discussion here:
Firstly, by default, I was talking only about “Film” singers. I was not talking about classical singers or ghazal singers or non-film singers.
Secondly, even “film” or “playback” singers are first and foremost singers. This means that they have to first meet the basic requirements of sur and taal – the technical aspects. Only after that do we look at the other aspects like how much emoting they are doing, how much voice modulation they are bringing in etc., or the non-technical aspects.
Technical aspects are obviously the objective criteria. I don’t know why this is being disputed. If singer A goes off-key and singer B does not, it is objective to say that B is a better singer than A. It doesn’t matter if they are film singers or not. The same applies when a singer misses the taal. That is a perfectly valid criteria because it can be measured. And, technically speaking, every song has a sur or pitch (or a range of pitches) and a taal or rhythm. The pitch can be either low or medium or high. The rhythm or taal can be fast or slow or varying. So, for a trained ear, the immediate judgement of a singer is based on whether the singer has gone off-key at all, if so, is it at a higher or lower scale, whether his voice has deteriorated in any manner at any particular scale, whether he was able to keep the rhythm successfully etc. These are all objective criteria. And I always use these to rate different singers.
However, things like singer A’s voice is sweeter than singer B’s or it’s more soothing etc. cannot be proven because there is no way to measure it.
I was taking the logical approach to rate singers.
Smitha,,
Kishore sounded diffferent for different singers more consistently than many others,, I have leaborated many a times this point in many occassions even in this topic also with examples of Dev Ananad, Amitabh Bachchan, Mehmood or even,ahem, Deven Verma!!
I am in no mood to again go back to that circuitous point to prove Kishore -“as a playback singer”- was the best!! If you call his enactment of Dev Anand on screen “by default”, then I have no issue,, I can’t go on convincing people for these things every now and then:))
Mr.Bose:
It is not my intention to nitpick your points or find logical loopholes. But many of the points that you have made do seem illogical and contradictory to me and hence the previous post.
It seems we have to agree to disagree on many things because of the difference in our respective basic perceptions. I can never bring myself to believe that only technical things can be objective and only this in turn can be the parameters for judging and comparing singers and artists in general. I also can’t agree with your list of the area of technical expertise and I don’t believe there is someone who can conceive a comprehensive list of ‘technical competency expected of singers’. If we are to apply your strict parameters, we will have to go into such socialist statements like all good singers (by using this term I mean someone who can song with sur, taal and the assorted things) are ‘equally’ good. Extending this logic to other art forms, we may have to conclude that all writers who don’t make grammatical errors and who avoid non-realistic situations are ‘equally’ good.
I also can’t agree with the ‘technical’ criteria for singing and ‘subjective’ criteria for ‘play back singing’ theory. This theory, by the way, is contradictory to your initial stance that even play back singers have to be primarily judged on the basis of technical factors.
All forms of singing, whether classical, light or film involves technical and non-technical aspects. Technical aspects are not equivalent to objective aspects and non-technical things are not the same as subjective things. I would agree with you if you say ‘Film singing lays more emphasis on non-technical factors compared to other forms of Indian music’.
Mr.Arghya:
Thank you for the list of songs. I have listened to some of them. Let me check out the rest.
I can very well see why you consider kishore as the best play back singer but could you explain why you consider Rafisahab as the best singer?
I also agree with your observation on Kishore being under-rated as a singer. However I can’t fully agree with you on Kishore sacrificing his ‘singer’ calibre to be a better playback singer.
Let us continue with ‘mere naina..’ discussion to further elaborate my point. Kishore was not technically very good in this song and I don’t think you are objecting to this point. His fault was not in replacing the alaap with his trade mark humming and to tell you honestly that Lata alaap would have sounded odd on Kishore’s (or any male voice, generally)voice -I am not speaking about his skills or technique here-, mind you. Rafi would have made that alaap acceptable with his voice type but that is not the point we are discussing. The actual technical short comings in the song were many; Kishore’s landing notes suffered from lack of clarity, in general. He was generally struggling at lower notes though he did well in the higher ones. The final outcome had a laboured feel about it especially in comparison to the Lata version. Your point is that these were all by design rather than default. Let us come to it later. Instead let us go into the technical aspects a little further, now. I am sure Kishore would have sung this song better in the late ’50s, early ’60s when his voice was what I described and what Mr. Bose supported in our previous posts- tru toned and crisp. By the mid-’70s the Kishore voice wasn’t the crispest, it became heavier, thicker (I am using this term in the exact meaning Mr. Bose has given it) and cloudier. By this time Kishore also lost much of his ‘lows’ though he retained his ‘highs’. RDB also seems to have erred in judging the vocal range of his favourite singer at this point of his career. Ideally he should have scaled it a note higher, Lata wouldn’t have objected too.
Now we shall discuss your point on how Kishore made this song a better play backing effort by sacrificing the technical aspects. I would say Kishore did make this song enjoyable and hummable by the common cine-followers and in that way he did a good play back singing. But does his voice match Rajesh Khanna’s voice and/or persona? Would he have done anything different if it were,say, Amitabh on screen? Would he have given it a different feel if the film situation was to be different? My answer to all these questions would be ‘no’. Or in other words everything that went with his rendering was by default and not as per design (at the scale in which the song was set). kishore wasn’t exactly making a difficult song sound easy in this case. This is a song that doesn’t call for MUCH technical expertise and Kishore sang it the way he knew and he could.
Hi surajitda
I have all these 4 songs which you have mentioned,, I will mail it to you, one by one:)),, By today evening, “mohabbat ka chhotasa” and “subah ki pehli kiran tak” would be yours…
Now, this is my turn to ask you something:))..lol..
I want “mere sukh dukh ka sansar” as I have lost the song recenty,, You can please mail me that song at arghyatext@hotmail.com )
Note from Admin: Avoid discussions on songs exchange on the site. Thank you.
Arghya,
That’s a great list of songs you have put out. To that list I would also like to add:
Mere sukh dukh ka sansar – Fareb, Anil Biswas
and a bengali song – o amaar sojoni go (with Lata) – Antarghaat, 1980, Salil
Also, can I ask you a favour ? I really searched for these songs and I don’t have them in my collection. If you have them, can you let me know how I can get them ? My email is surajitbs@gmail.com.
Mohabbat ka chhotasa ek ashiana. 1950. S D Burman(High pitch rendtiton in Antara)
Subah ki pehli kiran tak.1951. Panna Lala Ghosh( A “semi-classical patriotic” song!!)
1. Ki ashay badhi khelaghar. 1975. Shyamal mitra.( The “dha” he takes in the antara, no descriptions only feedback required after listening)
2. Chholoki chholoki man. 1967. Hemant Kumar.( The antara, in “Ramprasadi” style and tune of Bengali music, see, how “traditional” Kishore could get in semi-classical)
-surajit
Smitha,
I cannot help but think that you are just nitpicking the points I made. I was explaining why Kishore is both a great “singer” as well as a great “playback” singer.
Yes, objective or technical aspects are the ONLY valid criteria to measure somebody as a “singer”.
While the remaining aspects that I have highlighted by saying “Keeping aside the technical aspects … ” were to highlight the point that he was also a great “playback” singer.
The essence of my post is that whether it’s technical/objective criteria used to rate a singer’s technical prowess or subjective criteria used to rate a singer’s “playback” prowess, Kishore is comparable to Rafi.
I hope I have made myself clear. I would rather that you use some valid points instead of trying to find logical loopholes from my posts.
Mr.Bose:
Going thru your post, I am all the more convinced that subjectivity is indeed the card of the confused mind.
On one hand you say only ‘technical’ things can be objective. In singing you define ‘swara’, ‘taal’, execution of ‘alaaps’ and ‘taans’, ability to sing with well-defined voices at high and low notes, ability to switch smoothly between registers as the ONLY objective parameters to compare singers. Am I right in my conclusion?
Then on the other hand you come up with this gem:
*Keeping aside the technical aspects, one needs to look at the distinction in the delivery, in the originality and nuance of musical expression with all that it entails. Seen in that light, Kishore Kumar is very hard to replicate. For the spontaneity that lit his renditions cannot be acquired through formal education or technical mastery. It has to be part of one’s inherent personality. The number of men who are really adept at something is very small, but the number who are adept as well as original is a tiny minority indeed. It’s the latter attribute that recommends Kishore Kumar.*
So what am I to make out of this? That ‘subjective’ or ‘non-technical’ factors may be brought into support Kishore’s supremacy but not Rafi’s? Or is it that any thing related to Kishore is ‘objective’ while that related to Rafi (except ‘raag’, ‘taal’ etc.) are subjective?
surajitda,,
Regarding your last post, in continuation, I would like Smitha to listen to the following Kishore songs to know his range and potential as “a singer”,, I am also mentioning MDs, so that she comes out of her pre-conceived “RD Burman” notion…
//HINDI//
1. Jagmag jagmag karta nikla. 1949. Khemchand Prakash(Voice modulation)
2. Mohabbat ka chhotasa ek ashiana. 1950. S D Burman(High pitch rendtiton in Antara)
3. Woh meri taraf yun chale aa.1952. Husnlal Bhagatram( Flat and soft)
4. Husn bhi hai udaas udaas.1953. Anil Biswas( From Saigal school to Talat school:))
5. Woh dekhe to unki inayat.1956. SD Burman( Raag yaman at moderate pitch with fluency and simplicity)
6. Haal tujhe apni duniya ka. 1957. C Ramchandra( Deep pathos in the voice)
7. Subah ki pehli kiran tak.1951. Panna Lala Ghosh( A “semi-classical patriotic” song!!)
8. Des chhuraye bhes chhuraye.1959. Madan Mohan. (semi-classical comic number much before Padosan)
9. Payalwali dekhna.1963. Chitragupta.( Pure semi-classical)
10. Prem ka rog laga mujhe. 1980. Laxmikant Pyarelal.(Semi-classical bhajan)
11. Guzar jaye din. 1972. Salil Chowdhury.(Complex chord progressions and note changes throughout the song)
12. Jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai. 1964. Kishore Kumar. ( Just think a man whom you don’t consider great in singing, could compose and sing with this much pathos!!)
13. Aaj rona pada to samjhe. 1960. Hemant Kumar.(Expressing sadness has never been better)
14. Aa mohabbat ki basti. 1953. Anil Biswas.(Talk about versatility?? See the note changes from the mukhda to the antara)
15. Aesi haseen chandni. 1981. Khyyam. (A ghazal set on a rhythmic tune and the expressions gorgeous)
//BENGALI//
1. Ki ashay badhi khelaghar. 1975. Shyamal mitra.( The “dha” he takes in the antara, no descriptions only feedback required after listening)
2. Chholoki chholoki man. 1967. Hemant Kumar.( The antara, in “Ramprasadi” style and tune of Bengali music, see, how “traditional” Kishore could get in semi-classical)
3. Aamaar deep nebhano raat. 1974. kishore Kumar. (Raag bhairavi composed and sung by him. To be noted is the antara with “harqats” and low notes)
4. Nayano sarasi keno. 1970. Kishore Kumar. (Talking about simplifying semi-classical?? Just listen, you would find how difficult it is only when you try out on your own)
5. Cheyechhi jaare ami. 1984. Basudeb Chakraborty. ( How heavy and deep his voice gets especially in the antara)
6. Shuno shuno go sobe. 1979. Salil Chowdhury. ( A 10 minute extravaganza , tune based on bengali “Kirtan”- a form of devotional song, “Shridam Sudam Bole”, see, how a devotional tune could be created into such a delight,, main thanks to Salilda , though:))
I expect you to listen these 20 odd songs first,,, They are the “first stepping stone” to understand Kishore “as a singer”… There are 4-5 stepping stones more,, I am still into 4th:)),,, But these are pretty preliminary,,, Listen to them, with an intention “to discover”,, You would be delighted!!!
Thank you!!!!
Hi Smitha,
Don’t worry, you are not the first nor will you be the last to disagree with Kishore being comparable to Rafi, both as a singer and as a playback singer. But that doesn’t make it a fact. And I am not saying this because I am a Kishore fan. On the contrary, I am a Kishore fan because he’s technically so good, as a singer and as a playback singer.
Ok, now that you have put forth your opinions regarding Rafi’s supposed superiority over Kishore, technically speaking, you are forcing me to dig into the technical aspects and explain why Kishore is on par with Rafi, note-for-note, swara-for-swara.
One thing I want to point out is that when most people, usually fans of other singers, talk about Kishore’s songs, they talk about RDB, Rajesh Khanna, and Amitabh Bachchan. That essentially means that they haven’t heard the full repertoire of Kishore. They haven’t heard the songs Kishore has sung for stalwarts like Anil Biswas, C.Ramachandra, Khemchand Prakash, SDB etc. that were picturized on Dev Anand, Kishore himself, and other actors, including Raj Kapoor in “Pyar” in 1950. So, even if you exclude RDB, RJ, and AB, Kishore has plenty going for him. It’s not like Kishore burst onto the scene out of nowhere in 1969. Kishore’s first song was in 1948 and he was an active singer through the 1950’s. It was only in the ’60’s that his fortunes dipped and he disappeared from the singing scene. “Aradhana” was more of a comeback vehicle rather than an introductory vehicle.
Ok, now let me delve into the characteristics of both, technically speaking. The effortlessness with which Kishore moves from register to register is unmatched. No, Rafi couldn’t match it. Like I said, Rafi’s voice is layered and thick and that was a handicap when he had to switch registers suddenly. So, there are instances where Rafi had a tendency to yell when he goes above top Rishabh because he couldn’t switch it with the desired control.
Further, the same thickness of Rafi’s voice was a handicap to him when he tried to go into the lower octaves. Rafi’s voice – when he tried to go low by eliminating his chest and “nabhi”, and using only his throat and head-voice – became coarse and husky. It loses it’s definition. Kishore didn’t have any such drawbacks. Kishore’s voice is as firm and true-toned in songs of the Saigalish and Talat style (I can send you some superb songs of this type if you can provide me with your email address, if you are interested) as it was in the open-throated and chest-voice style (or as Kalyanji Anandji said about Rafi – singing from the “nabhi” or navel) of Rafi.
Rafi is superior to Kishore in being able to sing continuously at a high scale. Further, Rafi’s classical training meant that his voice had the right texture and “pronounciation” for light classical songs. Manna Dey could sing as well, probably even better, in the classical variety but his voice lacked the sweetness and wistfulness of Rafi. Rafi was also very good in going from a low pitch to a high pitch suddenly. However, this last aspect is only true when he is allowed to sing out with his chest and throat, instead of only his throat and head-voice.
If you are disinclined to believe what I have stated here, I can provide you a few examples with songs by highlighting the points I have made.
Also, regarding “subjectivity”, it’s not only the confused mind that uses this card. Art is subjective, there’s no two ways about it. When you say Rafi’s voice is the sweetest voice and more soothing voice, you are stating an opinion. If not, can you prove it ? More to the point, can you prove it using tangible concepts like raga and taal ? Not theories like there are 1 million people who agree with me, and that includes famous musicians etc. If somebody else finds Saigal’s voice more sweeter than Rafi’s, it doesn’t mean that Rafi’s voice is less pleasing than Saigal’s and SIMILARLY, if you find Rafi’s voice to be the most soothing voice, it doesn’t mean that Kishore’s voice is less pleasing than Rafi’s. These are aspects that cannot be proven and therefore they are subjective.
The fact is Kishore is very underrated as a singer and as a playback singer. Most people, probably you included, know Kishore only through his songs for RDB in the 1970’s. You need to hear Kishore’s songs from the 1940’s and early 1950’s to get a real idea of how supremely gifted he was as a singer and as a playback singer. Keeping aside the technical aspects, one needs to look at the distinction in the delivery, in the originality and nuance of musical expression with all that it entails. Seen in that light, Kishore Kumar is very hard to replicate. For the spontaneity that lit his renditions cannot be acquired through formal education or technical mastery. It has to be part of one’s inherent personality. The number of men who are really adept at something is very small, but the number who are adept as well as original is a tiny minority indeed. It’s the latter attribute that recommends Kishore Kumar.
Smitha,
Some points to share:
1. Manna’s voice resemble to whom??? Umm,, quite a question dear,,, In “O jag ke rakhwale ” , he was very close to Rafi’s vocal domain whereas in ” Zindagi hai khel koi paas koi fail”, definitely more into Kishore’s vocal domain,, That is why I always think, Manna’s voice ditched Manna throughout his career, as he really could not distinguish himself from the great vocal chord holders like Mukesh, Kishore or Rafi,,
2. As far as Kishore as a “singer” is concerned, I wholeheartedly feel Kishore to be the great(est) playback singer(and that is why I am so active i this site:)) and rafi to be the great(est) singer(that is why I went to mohdrafi.com where they did not like my viewpoints),,, Mr. Bose would definitely answer you on his own way, I would say, Kishore “as a singer was highly underrated” in the history of Film music,, Yes, I again repeat myself,,, The reason being, whenever he used to sing tough notes, he used to simplify the rendering to make it go well with the audience , making himself projected more as “playabck” singer rather than a “singer”.. For example, take “Mere naina sawan bhadon”,, Many people think it to be not “upto the perfection” and believe the song should have gone to Rafisaab(especially Rafi fans),, On my in depth questioning, their apprehension was found to be in the initial “alaap” part of it, which Lata did and Kishore replaced it with his “signature humming”,, Now, what should I make out?
a) Kishore could not sing the alaap
b) Kishore omitted the alaap as it was not suited for the male voice and also the context of the song in the movie were different for his and Lata’s songs,,
Option “a ” is the most popular for anti-Kishorians as it is very easy to say as Kishore did not have classical training, he omitted the alaap and it is very easy to make people believe it also,, But was the “alaap” so tough? I think the alaaps which Kishore took in “Log kehte hai main sharabi hoon” or “Jab bhi koi kangna khanke” or even his earlier comedy songs like “Des chhuraye bhes chhuraye” were tougher! I mean, that is what my musical logic says, So, I decided to think of option “b”
Option “b”: The Lata song in the movie was projected as “a haunting song” and the Kishore one was a “sad song” after reincarnation,, where the hero is sitting in grief in the midnight and humming the song,, If I am griefstruck and trying to console myself with a passionate tune, do you expect me to go for a “aa…aa…..aa” sort of alaap to start with???
Please, notice my question, as , these were the questions Kishore used to ask at the recording studios and these were the stones to make him a “great(est) playback singer”,, Now if the song were given to Manna, definitely the “alaap” would have been retained, and would more stuck to Shivranjani textbook than the Kishore “version” mainly because of the alaap,,
A major example of how “singer” Kishore got overshadowed by “playback singer” Kishore,,,To effortlessly compose and sing a Bhairavi in “Aamaar depp nebhano raat” with typical low notes, for the public, would have been made more “accalimed” by singing more difficuilt way by many people, but Kishore chose to go for the route which Sachin Dev Burman had taught him years ago ” singing difficult songs in an easy way is more difficult than singing difficult songs in more difficult way”,,,
And dada burman also shared the same fate in music direction which Kishore had suffered in singing,, Even today, Dada Burman is considered as the “best film composer”, but “the best composer” is reserved for Naushad Ali saab,, Even Dada Burman’s valuation as a music director remained highly underrated!!
Mr.Bose:
I included ‘film semi-classical singing’ in my ‘anything’. I know Rafi is not the greatest classical singer in the World but I also know that he did a very good job whenever called upon to do a film semi-classical song. Considering the fact that he wasn’t trained properly for the job, I would say his show was commendable. S.Janaki is also not a vastly trained (in classical music) singer, but she pulls of the film semi-classicals very well.
I can’t really agree with both your points- one on Kishore’s technical skills vis-a-vis Rafi’s and the other on subjective territories.
Kishore is a very good play back singer. There cannot be two opinions on that. But is he a ‘very good’ singer? I doubt it. Take away Rajesh Khanna’s tilted headed mannerisms, Amitabh’s ‘violent’ charm and RDB/SDB’s crispy, peppy songs and what remains with Kishore? Nothing much. Take away Dileep Kumar’s gentle man charm, Guru Dutt’s brooding intensity, Shammi Kapoor’s flamboyance, S.J’s/O.P.N’s foot- tappers and what remains with Rafi? Quite a lot. There lays the difference. Rafi is a great(est) Singer- Play back singer combo. Kishore is a superb play back singer and a fine (not great) singer. Difficult to prove technically? Perhaps, but if we go by purely technical aspects we can’t prove that my neighbour who hits the right ‘swaras’ all the time and who has a presentable voice at high and low notes is inferior to K.J.Yesu Das.
Subjectivity is the last resort of the confused. When someone says ‘Mukesh is the best in sad songs’, I don’t jump up and shout ‘subjective.., subjective…’. I know and have realised that it is a truth (despite my Rafi obsession). When I say Rafi’s voice is the most pleasing, soothing one, I know I am spelling out a fact and not a subjective opinion. If someone likes another voice better, it doesn’t make Rafi’s voice less pleasing.
Smitha,
Regarding post 1325 and 1326, you have made some very good points regarding the different styles of singing.
Rafi was definitely the first male singer to create a new male voice proto-type in the post-Saigal era. Saigal’s or Kishore’s voices are what you call true-toned voices (unlike Rafi’s voice – which I will clarify later). If you plot a time vs. frequency graph, you would get an almost straight and well-defined line. BUT Saigal did NOT sing in truly open-throated style.
All singers, including Saigal, Mukesh, Rafi, Kishore, and Talat, until the early-50’s sang in a restrained manner as opposed to the open-throated style that was to come later. When I say restrained, I don’t mean from the emotional point of view. I mean that all the singers mainly used their head-voice (for both the lower and higher scales) instead of their chest. And that is precisely the reason why Rafi did not stand out from the rest of the singers during that time period. Because the same qualities of his voice that became Rafi’s strength during his reign proved to be a weakness as long as the soft, restrained singing style was in vogue. Rafi’s voice is layered, thick (not heavy or bassy, mind you). So, when he goes to the higher scale, it doesn’t become shrill or thin or weak. It’s very steady at the highest scale. However, when he tries to sing in the softer mould using his head-voice, and/or a lower scale like Talat or Kishore or Saigal, his voice gains a husky texture and loses it’s clarity and definition. That was why he could never become the dominant singer in the late forties and early fifties. Talat’s soft, ghazalish style of singing reigned supreme. And even Kishore’s and Mukesh’s voice suited that style better than Rafi’s did. That was the only reason why MDs like Khemchand Prakash, Anil Biswas, CR etc. preferred Talat and even Kishore (or sometimes Mukesh) over him after Saigal departed.
Luckily for Rafi, as we approached the mid-fifties, the style of playback singing and music direction was slowly changing. The actors/actresses, the way they emoted on screen, the way the songs were picturized, the music that was slowly coming into vogue with help from SJ, Naushad, OPN etc. meant that songs were now to be sung in an open throated and free style, without the early restraint that was so dominant till then. And this was right up Rafi’s alley. All his gifts as a singer were now able to gain expression. And there was no looking back. Talat slowly lost ground as his voice did not have the strength or “back-bone” for this style. Fortunately, Kishore’s voice was not lacking in this aspect too. He was able to successfully transition from the restrained saigalish style to the open-throated, free style that Rafi brought.
And it was the layered thickness of Rafi’s voice that also limited his capability for executing taans and sudden switches across registers.
Hi Smitha,
Regarding post 1323,
Can you elaborate as to what you mean by the statement ” a female singer who could sing *anything* as well as Rafi” ? Are you including classical songs in that *anything* ?
If you are talking about regular films songs of different moods and emotions, Rafi is definitely one of the greatest playback singers in any language. But it is not something that can *proven* because you will then be venturing into subjective areas of impact.
Stirctly technically speaking, at least in Hindi Film Music (HFM), Kishore is right up there with Rafi. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but it’s not like Rafi is far and away superior to Kishore. Rafi is superior to Kishore or any other male singer in the higher octaves, but he gives away ground to Kishore, Mukesh, Hemant Kumar in the lower octaves.
And if you are talking about other aspects like sweetness of voice, texture, emotional quotient etc., you are venturing into subjective fields and there is no way to rate subjective aspects of different singers. There are people who swear by Saigal’s voice as there are people who swear by Talat’s voice and Rafi’s voice and Kishore’s voice. Who is to say which section of fans are right ? Can you prove that one singer’s voice is superior to another’s as far as the artistic areas of impact is concerned ? My father goes raptures over Saigal’s voice but neither Rafi’s voice nor Kishore’s voice does anything for him.
If you are including classical songs in that *anything*, I don’t like stressing this point again and again much to the detriment of other Rafi fans, but Rafi is *not* adept at classical songs when compared to some of his other contemporaries. He can hold his own in alaaps that are not too elaborate or convoluted, but he is very weak in executing taans. Lata, Asha, and Manna Dey, from HFM, Ghantasala from Telugu etc. are much more accomplished in the classical genre. It’s not even close.
I agree about KJY. In just one song from a malayalam movie in the early ’90’s (I forget the song but I think he won a national award) he covered 3 full octaves. His vocal range (low to high) is greater than any other male singer I’ve heard, at least in HFM.
Mr.Arghya, we are actually on the same track, more or less. If you want to brand ‘Kishorean’ style as an entirely new style of singing, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and you may be right also and I am sure you will not be in a minority community. To me (and that is what is important to ME), Kishore is disciple and a good one at that, though a revelutionary one of the old Saigal school. However just think of a few facts. Why do you find most of the seasoned Kishore fans, fans of Saigal too? Conversely you would also find a lot of Saigal fans being more inclined to Kishore than Rafi and (surprisingly) Mukesh.
Coming back to my classifications, I wasn’t pivoting on the voice, rather I was trying to base my classifications on ‘singing technique’ and ‘style’. Manna Dey’s is a trained voice, his style is trained (and sophisticated) too. However who do you think is more similar to him (in toto) Rafi or Kishore?
Smitha,
“open throated” and “true toned”,, hmm,, if “voice based” singing is your definiton of Saigal school(let us for the time being forget who should fall in Saigal school or who should not), the, Manna that way also does not fall under Saigal school IMHO,, Rather, he would fall into “techinicality based” singing rather than “vocal based” singing,, It is the “voice quality” for which Manna lacked a bit( not that it was not good, but it had less impact than other voice based singers like Mukesh and Kishore),, “,, But for me, Kishore’s singing was 100%original and “Kishore’s school of music ” also very much existent becuase, from your “Saigal school of music”, these are the things Kishore added to playback singing:
1. Enactment of a song according to the mood
2. Adjusting his voice according to the mood and actor(“Koi hota jisko apna” and “Chhukar mere man ko”, just for example)
3. Performance alongwith the singing-essential part and a big introduction to film music by Kishore, I really don’t know whether it has been good or bad for film music, but it truely has changed the market requirement, as today, people demand”performing singers” and not only “singers”,, That is why Saurabhee wins common men’s vote to win “Indian Idol” and Bhavya Pandit loses out,, These things were “particularly taught” to Indian music audience by Kishore Kumar,,
So, IMHO, I would rather keep a separate “Kishore’s school of music”, you might call it “Modified Saigal school”, but, then, the difference is big!! That way , “Talat school” and “rafi school” will have less difference,:)
Mr.Manish:
I wish to add something to what you have written about ‘teri bindiya re..’. Rafi was very close to his vocal best in this song, like you said he sang with a lot of restraint, as he did with most of the SDB soft songs.
With Rafi (at his best), there are a lot of modulations; he could vary the heaviness, the amplitude, the power and the sweetness of his voice almost at will. In this song he keeps the amplitude low, softness high without actually sacrificing the heaviness.
I don’t think the male-female scaling issue is in picture in this song. This song confines itself to the comfortable zone of both the singers, just that Rafi keeps the amplitude in check even at the higher notes while Lata doesn’t (no, that doesn’t make her singing worse).
Mr.Arghya:
To say someone is from a particular school of singing is different from saying he is a clone of the founder of the school. Manna Dey’s film singing is very much from the ‘Saigalian school’, open throated and true toned. I am not even sure whether Manna De was trying to sing like Saigal, it could be a coincidence. Whatever it may be, the basic singing technique of Manna Dey (in film singing) is Saigalian.
You are right when you say Talat school of singing is almost extinct in HFM. But that doesn’t mean that Talat is not an original or that there is no such school as Talat school. You have to take into account the fact that there are many of singers (may not be film singers) who consider Talat to be their ‘guru’. Talat’s influnce is not confined to Hindi music alone, there are some Soth Indian singers (like G.Venugopal) who idolise Talat. If you ask the current generation gazal singers, a good number of them should be Talat-inspired ones.
Kishore, as I said, is very much a Saigalian. May be his vocal texture wasn’t exactly Saigal-like (or in other words he wasn’t trying to sound like Saigal) from around mid-late ’50s. However his technique throughout his career was Saigal like. He sang open throated and he punched hard and straight (the trade mark of Saigalian singing). The added heaviness-roughness combo (in the mid-’70s), perhaps made Kishore rather unlike his mentor, but he was very much his master’s disciple. Since you’ve used a cricketing verbatum, I would also rspond with this- Kishore was the Waqar Younis to Saigal’s Imran Khan (You sure know I am speaking about reverse swing).
Smitha,,
Your analysis goes over my head like a bouncer!!:(
1. Manna De a Saigal school student: Please back this up,, Manna de was inspired by his uncle Late Shri Krishna Chandra Dey right from his childhood and under KC De only he learnt music apart from Late Pankaj Kumar Mullick, under whom Manna learnt Rabindrasangeet,, Neither in historic terms nor in singing terms, Manna was ever a Saigal schoolian,, Manna’s classical music was enhanced both by KC Dey as well as Pandit Shri Panna Lala Ghosh,,, and kindly elaborate where in Manna’s rendition you found Saigal influence,, I mean, a fatharly figure like Saigal saab has definitely influenced many singers, but to put a singer in his “school” should have a proper back up,,,
2. You say there are three schools of music: Saigal school(I agree), Rafi school(I agree) and Talat school(I cannot agree),, Talasaab was a great singer but I find very few people following his “genre” of singing,, This has nothing to do with the caliber of Talatsaab- he was a very accomplished and original singer in true sense- but could really not inspire too many people with “influential factor”..
3. Definitely, Kishore started his career by following Saigal, But come 50s, I think the Saigalish style was very much extinct from Kishore’s voice,, Khemchandji Prakash- the true mentor of Kishore- was a Saigal admirer and Khemchandji’s lifetime achievement performance was with Saigal in “Tansen”(1944),, KP wanted Kishore to sound more like Saigal, and it was confirmed by many illuminaries also,, I personally love the way Kishore rendered “Jagmaj jagmag karta nikla” in his Saigalish tone in 1949, which I hold an opinion to be one of the sweetest and most melodious sad songs in the 40s,, but that was all,, From 50s onwards, Kishore’s singing was the most “unique” in terms of emoting a song, putting expressions and performance!!
To tell you, even Rafisaab was in his adolesent days, was impressed by G M Durani,, but can you say Rafi’s voiced was not “original” because in his 1944 movie “Gul Baloch”, he had sounded like G M Durani??
Definitely, Kishore was very much vocally strong in order to admit his love and passion towards saigal,, Thatz how he was,, But for that, if we say Kishore’s singing was “not original”, then we need to redefine the definition of originality the, dear friend!
And I am not dragging the point with why did not you make a “Kishore school” also, as maximum singers today follow his footsteps( And Prabhanjanji would be delighted to know, one of them has got Padmashree also!!!),, That was your point of thinking, which i appreciate,, But these points you should make clear, my dear!!
When Savita says ‘Kishore was very original’ she is both right and wrong. He is 100% original as an all-round artist; but he is not 100% original as a singer. IMO, there are basically 3 schools of singing in HFM- the Saigal school, the Talat school and the Rafi school. Kishore is very much a member of the Saigal school (so is Mukesh and Manna Dey). Kishore did several things that are not exactly ‘Saigalian’ but these can very well be termed as additions/improvisations to this school.
I agree fully with Prabhanjan on Yesu Das. The sisters are not in his class as ‘classical singers’. Infact I always consider Yesu Das as the male equivalent of Lata. He has a voice that is nearly perfect, superb control over it, he is technically very good and in terms of vocal range he surpasses Lata (and almost everyone in HFM).
Is there a female equivalent of Rafi? To me, there is none; the closest one would be S.Janaki. She is very good in adapting to the film scene/ situation and the actor and her repertoire is wide-ranging. But she is not in the Rafi class when we speak about voice quality and clarity. If I have to name a female singer who would sing almost anything well (as Rafi did), it has to be S.Janaki.
Arghya,
I have read that article too. Here it is:
http://www.sdburman.net/website/Feature_of_the_month/Features/Feature_Aug2004PradeepSinghi.htm
I had read something else earlier but a quick review indicates that was also speculation: The writer of Abhimaan wanted only one voice for the male singer for the sake of continuity. The context of Teri Bindiya Re caused a stir. So then they got another singer: Rafi. To avoid more questions, they wanted a third singer with Mukesh but with a big heart Mukesh allowed Manhar Udhas to record instead.
In any case, it’s not really important to me. I just just thrown it out there as a “fun trivia” but a review indicates there is no solid basis. So I’ll go back to my own thinking that SD Burman composed this for Rafi as Rafi sang that composition extremely well. As for what people say about the movie context – they are too much into the movie. What a bunch of scripted actors say in a movie is not a truth for person that is actually real lol. I can judge for myself. Rafi’s voice in 1973 was not quite on par as 1965 but he put extra special elements into that composition and take it to the skies. Lata sang well as always but Rafi was extra special and supreme in that song.
A fellow listener even pointed out that Rafi was singing low key and softly allowing Lata to sing louder and dominate (to fit the scene). I’m not sure if this was intentional or the consequence of the female having to sing at the male’s scale (as Surajit pointed out earlier). In any case, Rafi’s voice sounded more soothing, sweet and pleasant to me. He sang it straight from the heart. Beautiful!
– Manish
Manishji(Post no. 1311)
“Teri Bindiya Re” was actually thought out for Rafi ony,, As one of very close acquintance of RDB, told that the tune was made by SDB in a party at his residence and then by humming that tune he said to that person” yeh gaana Rafi hi gayega”,,,
I am trying to find that piece of article from my archive, it may take a couple of days time, but it is true,,
Now, at the time of recording or actually going for the rehearsal of the song actually, he might have thought otherwise again,, As there must have been a gap of another 7-9 months and in that meantie, he might have been further enlightened by some renditions of KK, we never know,,
Some say, looking at that time’s market, it was good that KK did not sing “Teri bindiya re”,, Because in the film it was projected just after the song that the female(Jaya Bhaduri) sang it better than the male(Amitabh Bachchan),, so, making it 2+2, Lata sang better than Rafi!! Alas, poor Rafisaab, already on a backfoot on these days, had to suffer these silly comparisons by media also,,, I, ignoring everything, still think noone could have sung even Rajesh Khanna numbers like “Gun guna rahe hai bhanwre” or Amitabh number like “Teri bindiya re” under SD Burman beter than Rafisaab!! The softy and buttery touch he gave to those tunes are really mesmerizing,,
Savitaji,,,,
It was always a pleasure to hear from Rafi fans like you,Manish Kumar and Prabhanjan here who admire their idols but always maintain a dignity for other singers,,, We don’t want to make this site just like those other ones, where people are forced to move out because they hear far too many bad things about their own idols,, Fans of Kishore, Salil chowdhury, Ghantashala, Anil Biswas, RD Burman were more than occassionally hurt in other forums,,, So, please don’t get disheartened, you are a true fan and much better “Rafian” than many of your colleagues who claim themselves to be “Rafi devotees”,,,
Mainshji is a true Rafian and I myself had many arguements with him but always silently admired his true sense and love for music,, Don’t misunderstand or misinterpret him and if you have any affection towards me as a younger brother, please come back to this forum and enlighten us more with your lovely thoughts!!
Tahnk you,,,
Forgive me for that atrocious typo – “Tere Mere Milan Ki Yeh Raina”. That’s what happens when you write Hinglish while listening to another song at the same time 🙁
Surajit,
Excellent point and I fully agree about “Tere Mere Mile Yeh Raina”. Usually I consider the picturisation affecting the singing but oddly I did not do it that time. Yes, Kishore was very melodious in “Meet Na Mila”. I also agree with you about classical music vis a vis Rafi & Kishore.
“I am combining *both* – the regular film song as well as the classical…”
Understood. Nevertheless, you give much more weight to classical ability for a playback singer than I do. I only care about classical training as much as it surfaces in the compositions that Rafi was asked to sing: relatively little. Rafi’s excellence in many different types of songs justifies this further. I give greater weight to the other factors that are more present in the songs Rafi sang (even if they are subjective). Just as a random example, classical ability or sur are not factors for comparison in “Chotisi Mulaqat Pyar Ban Gayi” because Rafi & Asha both exceed those requirements in the song. I’m more focused on Rafi’s spontaneity that shines in this song whereas Asha sounds very practiced in comparison.
Savita,
You grossly misread what I wrote. I never said the things you went on rambling about. I listed those songs as examples of where Rafi Sahab was extremely melodious and in full control of sur. I’ve been a fan of Mohammed Rafi since age 5, even before I knew his name or that he was a legendary playback singer. I was in a hurry and maybe could have better worded that rhetorical question. I apologize for that. Hope you’ll post again.
– Manish
Hi Manish,
I have never, ever judged Rafi based on just his classical output. You can see that even in my posts from RMIM when I was active there. However, I am at variance with fans who use the classical card as the trump card to *prove* that Kishore cannot be mentioned alongside Rafi. It is only for that reason that I highlighted that point here.
Further, like I said in my reply to Smitha, I am combining *both* – the regular film song as well as the classical – to put forth my opinion regarding the sisters.
I agree about “Teri bindiya re”. It was one of the few songs from the 1970’s where Rafi sounded as good as he was in the 60’s. “Tere mere milan ki yeh raina” was not Kishore’s best in terms of being smooth, but given that the scene showed the hero to be almost crying, I think the performance matched up to it – what with all those tremors in the voice etc. Further, the song itself did not demand any special skills that Kishore lacked. Kishore had sung songs that were much more difficult to render. Also, the same Kishore was superbly smooth in “Meet na mila re man ka” from the same movie.
Like I said, different strokes for different folks.
Hi Smitha,
What you have said about playback singing is a valid point.
However, given the type of characters that were portrayed onscreen by actresses and the limited roles they had to offer, I think Lata’s performance as a playback singer was excellent. It’s hardly her fault that she is singing for actresses like Nargis, Meena Kumari, Nutan etc. who were of the – sorry for this term – sati-savitri type. Loyal, conservative, vulnerable etc. etc. Characters who were not of the type that came on later.
When Asha came on to the scene, she was initially mostly singing songs for characters that were not typical of the lead actresses of the times. In fact, that was her complaint then. Asha was just initially in the mould of Shamshad Begum and Geeta Dutt. To her credit, with her god given gifts and some help from OPN, she perfected that style.
It’s the hero who has the scope to don various roles and play various acts like disguising as an old man, a beggar, a police man etc. etc. This naturally offers more scope for the male singer to exhibit various shades of his repertoire.
I did not say that filmy classical is the *only* valid criteria. I said that we need to combine their performance in *both*. Further, Kishore was *not* a rank bad singer even if we include classical songs (because he hardly has any) for the simple reason that he had the sense to stay away from classical songs instead of mangling them the way Mukesh and Rafi did.
Both Rafi and Kishore were great playback singers but they were best suited for the lighter genres, unlike Lata and Asha who were excellent in *both* – the lighter as well as the classical. That, for me, is the clincher.
Further, Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, and Mahendra Kapoor were not as good as Rafi or Kishore even in the lighter genre. They went off-key quite often and they needed a lot more retakes. Manna Dey was good technically, but he lacked the flamboyance and spontaneity that Rafi or Kishore had. Talat’s repertoire was limited to ghazals and soft melodies – but within his niche, he was supreme. In fact, he was the numero uno until Rafi slowly stole his thunder.
I`ve decided something I would never write on such a site,,,as they only know critisizing if not directly then inderectly,,its my last comment,,I accidently came to this site,,,and was impressed,,,,by Argya`s divotion for Kis da yet repect for Rafi saab,,I was amazed that This Person is all over on the site,,,but by last few days Ihave got Idea of how fake these fans are who claim themselves lover of musci of Divine Rafi saab and,,,,hearty Kishore da,,,,,,they can only critisize,,,with the mask of appriciation like manish ji,,,,in recent visitor only Arghya is original ,,,,,,good bye to u all,,,its really endless,,,,Manish ji while making any psycological critisizm over these greatest legend,,just ask ur self who are u?,,,rather spreding the divinity of these legends to younger generation who really don`t know about kis da or Rafi sahab,,,,u r rather giving sweet chops with bitter chilli inside,,,,I`ll miss Arghya,bye forever everyone….
sorry I wrote big tv,,its rather big fm poll in all metros for best ever gazal,,,,,,,sorry
Manish ji,,
till ur last messege u had been just something by which admiration is made of but,,yor last remarks of the song like aana hai to aa,,,ab kya mishal doon etc is something that would surely upset anyone who loves Rafi,I think u should rather apologize for ur personal remarks on Rafi sahab not in sur in these song as for me its pure sur,,and even recently in year 2008 zee tv sa re ga ma pa, the big tv producer on the show declared the poll result for best gazhal in India,,it was ab kya mishal du“n of Rafi over passing those of Gulam ali and mehndi hassan on poll,,,,and u r saying it not on sur,,r u right or those thousand people wrong,,ok leave thousand,,its wrong if it hurt even the sentiment of a single person,,the song dil jo na keh saka is a killer song and aana hai to aa of naya daur, is full of bhakti,,,even stone hearted person can melt when Rafi sahab say,,ki aana hi bahut hai , bande tere har baat ki data ko khabar hai,,,,didn`t u see on youtube in what a great esteem they take the song pyar kisi ka gaata hai,,and what u said is surely unexpected from matured person like u,its something more hurting than a slang its rather a slang, that is completly unexpected from u…..,,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4uZpXPzmR4&feature=channel
Sir really,,,ur personal remarks,,,,is really painfull…..
Smitha wrote: “Rafi more than compensates with his own strengths (may be ’subjective’).” & “If you think a playback singer is to be judged on their basis of ‘filmy classical’ out put, I must say you are moving in a minority crowd.”
Agreed 100%.
Surajit wrote:
“Any good playback singer has to conform to two basic requirements: strong adherence to swara (sruti-shuddha) and bhava (feeling).
Sounds good to me! Rafi was excellent on both counts for 98% of the songs he rendered. I am not going to ignore 98% for 2%. 2% gets the importance that it deserve and that’s 2%! Admittedly, I made up those numbers for illustration. Where was Rafi lacking in “Ab Kya Misaal Doon”, “Chotisi Mulaqat Pyar Ban Gayee”, “Pyar Kisi Ka Gaata Hai”, “Aana Hai to Aa”, “Main Nighahen Tere Chehre Se”, “Dil Jo Na Keh Sahah” etc.? He did full justice to just about every genre in film music save for classical that which comprised very little of his repertoire. We have to give appropriate weight.
Amit,
Kishore Kumar was supposed to sing “Teri Bindiya Re” but people close to him pressured him to walk away from the song due to its context in the movie. SD Burman turned to Rafi who aced the song with his sweet, soothing, melodious, loving voice. “Teri Bindiya Re” was rendered with greater fluidity than “Tere Mere Milan Ki Yeh Raina” IMO.
Arghya,
I agree that OP’s dislike for Kishore was genuine. I’m just saying that OP could never see Kishore’s *singing* with clear lenses after Kishore’s tomfoolery. Knowing OP, this is of little surprise. He was a very proud man. So proud that he severed ties with Lata Mangeshkar and Dilip Kumar because they had made single unflattering comments to him. He even jeopardized relations with the singer he had such great love & chemistry for 10+ years because of one incident where Rafi came late. I’m sure Rafi’s naive explanation that he came late because he was held back at a *Shankar Jaikishan recording* did not help matters (hahahaha!).
no one talks of Kishore da talent rather,tough voice or freshness,,,what freshness ?who in film industry was unheard of Kishore da in 60s or 50s,everyone no matter if kishore da in these decades got least song or was not succeful as its Rafi saab all over then ,,,but everyone knew talent like kishore da,,,,in 70s so no point like freshness for such a stuff,,as far as freshness is concerned,,,when kishore da was on his career peak after 1969 in just two years of success Showman Raj kapoor wanted a fresh voice he at no way wanted to use Kis da for Young Rishi kapoor for he mentioned to Lp that it is too heard up,,,mind it in just two years,,,,,so Lp went on hunt for new voice and shailendra sing came in to sing in Bobby,,,,,,Lp had mad his mind with raj kapoor on the day of Shilendra shing`s adudition that if shailendra shing don`t pass, they would rather give main” sayar hoon to Md Rafi saab”may be because of LP loyality to Rafi or on Raj kapoor mind song being sayari and all that but,no kishore da in picture here,,,,,and this is what happened even later on ,,Rafi saab became voice of Romantic Rishi kapoor very soon (although he had hit some with kishore da aswell),,who can forget ,Amitabh bacchhan was bigger than bollywood in 70s,,and that too when he was playing Anthony bhai,,one of the most impt act for bigB as it would give a comic different image to angry young man,,my name is Anthony Gonj, was already a hit, with the voice of kis da and Amitabh bachan Rap,,,,yet nobaody like Rishi kapoor,,,who is really nobody opp to Big B,made his presence bigger than movie, with the Md Rafi sahab`s song for Akbar bahi “parda hai parda” ,pyar ka dushman hai hai,,and shirdi wale sai baba ,,people would have forgotton a3 but not these song,,,,,on the freshness ground once again Rafi sahab emerged with a new voice(some kis da fan may not like this husky Rafi,but success became slave to this new voice of Rafi saab) kya hua tera wada,barbade mohabbat,,,chand mera dil ,dard-e diletc,,,what about kishore da,,,,forget the comparision with Rafi saab,,no need of compare as both were different,and comparing only creates difference,kishore da died in 1987,,,and after 87 we have also forgotton,,what are the songs of real feelings are,,we listen to every hit bollywood song for few days but ultimately go back to great kis da with badi sooni sooni hai or o sathi re,,,,so once again I`m on same stand for every one who loves kishore da including me(though I`m a pure Rafian),bring to light the Real kishore da,,,careless, carefree had a voice to shatter the world in bit small pieces not on the point of his friendship,,bold voice,,,his semi classical song,,or he was busy with movie any such stuff,,Kishore da was very original person,if he had failure let it come out no need of curtain as the succes that he saw everyone know about it,,his greatness lies in his originality,,,not any other factor,,learn from Rafian who while listening to Their Ideal rafi saab,don`t think of anything else divinity in Rafi sahab`s voice,,so they can love all singer esp kishore da,,but se young kis da fan,,they always try to prove their choice better,,the trend started from 70s and still going on,,,and hence corrupted the both side,,now both side are fighting only,,,,well, said manish ji,,trust ur heart and just float with melody of the voice and forget everything else…
“Now, where Lata and Asha distinctly score over their male counterparts is in the filmy classical mould. There is simply no comparision here. Not Rafi, not Manna Dey, not Kishore, nobody could come close to these two here. And I say this based on my knowledge of HCM.”
I am convinced about Manna Day as the best for filmy classical mould. And my choice if the criteria for filmy classical (I think hindi filmy is implicit) is extend to Indian films, nobody beats, Lata Asha Manna included, K.J. Yesudas. He is simply the God of classical songs in films. And if we consider mythology, Ghantasala will be the answer 🙂
I think Mr.Amit has a valid point. It was Kishore’s fresh voice (on fresh faces) that endeared him to the cine-goers of the ’70s. There was no way he could pose a serious challenge to Rafi (or Mukesh) in the ’60s. Kishore also got lucky with violence stepping in big time to Hindi films in the ’70s and his heavy, rough voice fitted those ‘violent’ heroes like a glove.
Mr.Bose:
I can’t agree with your statement “Any good playback singer has to conform to two basic requirements: strong adherence to swara (sruti-shuddha) and bhava (feeling)”. Actually these are two pre-requisites of ‘good singing’ an not ‘good play back singing’. A good play back singer has to do more and he/she is licensed to be a bit off here and there on ‘swara’. A good play back singer is someone who is ‘convincing’ on the actor he/she play backs on and the situation of the song. To me the better play back singers we have had are Rafi, Kishore, S P Balasubramaniyam, S. Janaki and Asha; may be in that order. Lataji is not in their class, she has done little when it comes to voice/style adaptation on actors/situations and there are many genre where she came out as distinct second to Asha (dance numbers, naughty songs, fun songs etc.)
If you think a playback singer is to be judged on their basis of ‘filmy classical’ out put, I must say you are moving in a minority crowd. If that is the criteria, we have to admit that Kishore is a rank bad singer. We may also have to brand people like Mukesh, Talat and Mahendra Kapoor as non-singers as well.
To wind up let me reiterate this. If you are speaking about out and out playback singing, Lata is well behind Rafi (and Kishore) but Asha is not. If you are speaking about ‘good singing in Hindi films’, Lata is right up there. But Rafi is not behind. No, Lata’s better classical out put doesn’t make her better, Rafi more than compensates with his own strengths (may be ‘subjective’ but then everything can be interpreted as ‘subjective’).
Hi Amit,,
I have said that several times that “Kishore started taking acting assignments because his singing skill was not appreciated”,, More than a couple of times:)),,, lol,,
Surajit ji,,
I at least wholeheartedly agree on your theory on Lata and Asha,,, That was indeed right and even today, if there is a flawless voice, it has to be of Lataji,,,
No doubt, you would get many objections from “wild Rafians” for your statement for whom “even a praise to other singers is like insulting Rafi”, but you are very correct,, In terms of blending “techincal skills” with “mass alingnment”, Lata was far ahead of her male counterparts,, She was a “comprehensive singer”,,, and THE BEST..
Savita
You are actually “echoing” to what I said,, I said many combos made “professionally” great and that includes SD-Rafi and RD-Rafi to some extent also,,, And your facts tell that story only,, I said “personally” SD-Kishore relation was divine,, Please see the distimction,,
SD and RD both were genius composers and very much professionals also,, SD-Rafi combo is “divine” but on a “professional” ground,, Professional thinking made him use Rafi more post 1958 to 1969 and there is no harm in it,, Even I say “the best of SD was with Rafi”,, But his “personal” relation with Kishore and the rapport was very touchy,,
My point was there only,,
arghya
the matter of fact is not how much films did in 50s the question is y did he do so many films in 50s…the reason for this answer is that simply because he was not getting offer to sing thats y,, say if composers of 50s and 60s were impressed with kishorda and started giving him more chance then he wouldnt have done all these movies..but because they did not give kishorda chance to sing hence he had to movies remember he hated acting and alwayz wanted to become a singer but was forced by ashok kumar to act.whearas rafis voice was attractive and sooting that everyone was amazed by his voice his range and so on that it took him no time to establish himself to be a playback singer so rafi already had done playback singing for almost 25years before kishore actually started to playback properly in 70s ofcoure u have to understand that..so in 70s its lyke a fresh voice (kishore) vs a voice who has been ruling for 25yrs and u cant expect rafis voice to be fresh as it was in his peak and ofcourse the magic rafis voice had in his peak time u cant expect in 70s.. so hence who would be better off as a playback singer in 70s ofcourse composers would choose the fresh voice and thats exactly wat happened to kishorda in 70s
Hi Smitha,
I was only talking about playback singing. And yes, as far as playback singing is concerned, Lata’s and Asha’s best is superior to the best of any of her male counterparts.
However, instead of making a random statement about why I consider the sisters the superior, let me explain how I approach playback singing.
Any good playback singer has to conform to two basic requirements: strong adherence to swara (sruti-shuddha) and bhava (feeling). Lata, Asha, Rafi, and Kishore were all excellent in the lighter genres. Depending on the kind of music you prefer to hear, your affections may lie with any of them. Further, sweetness of voice and emotional quotient or bhava is truly subjective and cannot be agreed upon by the masses.
Now, where Lata and Asha distinctly score over their male counterparts is in the filmy classical mould. There is simply no comparision here. Not Rafi, not Manna Dey, not Kishore, nobody could come close to these two here. And I say this based on my knowledge of HCM.
The rigour and perfection with which the sisters have rendered some of the most difficult classical compositions is unparalleled. You would have to step into true classical music to find singers who could out-perform these two, and even there they can hold their own with most of them.
However, Lata’s mastery of singing only lasted till the early 60’s. By the second half of the 60’s the decay had started and the ’70’s only accentuated the decay.
So, considering both the lighter genres and the classical genres, I would say that only the sisters come close to perfection. Their male counterparts are lacking in one or the other aspects.
Arghya(sir),,
Burmans were in side of kis da or not there is little controversy,,,while rafian very well know that Rd burman was never on Rafi`s side,he chose rafi saab in late 70s only because rafi saabs succes compelled him to do so,,, while it appears sd burman never preffered Kis da over Rafi sahab,yes ,Sd burman gave many early song to kis da that any other music director in 60s or 50s would have given to Rafi saab,,but its only Dev anand who insited Sd burman for kis da,,,in movie Guide devanand was adamant on having kis da in playback but sd burman wanted to not to compormise with his choice to give three major solo to Rafi saab,also for dev anand this movie ws most important as the english version og guide was flop,so he agred on music direcotors choice,,,and Rafi saab did a job beyond which we can`t imagine anything,,Rafi saab often did something beyond expectation for dev anad like few song,,,apni to har aanh ek toofan hai,,,har gam ko dhuyen medata chala gya,,,,kahin bekhyal ho kad yuhi chho liya kisie ne,kai khwab dekh,,,,,Sd burman was not able to continue his recording work properly in last phase,even after aradhana1969,when everywhere talks that was going on in praise of Rd`s choice for kis da,Sd burman in 1972 when was to compose for gambler he gave mera man tera pyasa song to Rafi saab,,, Rafi saab once again performed extraordianrily well in that song,,he gave song to both kis da and rafi saab in abhiman ,the song teri bindiya re is classically tougher than tere mere milan ki raina,only the difference is in the song badi sooni sooni hai,,mili,,,but everyone know,,dada burman was on his death bed at this time,,,So Rd was major factor here,,the same Rd when was to start his career went with rafi saab,,gave supper hit got some name than started experimenting and kishore fan feel themself thankfull to that person,,,,It was only kisore da`s own genious that made him star not these Rd or anyone like that,,,,,the same Rd of which its already being said first Rafi than kishore than again called Rafi than finally kishore than went to search for new Rafi voice in md aziz finally career were so upset that he got heart attck for Subash ghai gave ramalakhan to Lp,,,,this kinda person can be whose side anyway,,,,! why don`t kishore da fan have complete confidence over kishore da rather they are thankfull to Dev anand,amitabh bachhan Rd bur etc,,,why not only to kishore da,,as a Rafian when think of Rafi saab` divine voice only thank God for saintly rafi saab presence in this highly materialistic film world,,but kis da fan give credit of kis da `s master piece to others,,,!!!! beyond understanding!!!!