An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Hi Smitha,
My question for you then is this: Can you *prove* that Rafi’s voice is sweeter than Kishore’s ? I can claim equally well that Kishore’s voice is sweeter than Rafi’s. Can you disprove my statement ?
However, ‘sureelapan’ can be measured if your ear is tuned enough to that singer’s voice and if you are trained enough to recognize the note or pitch that the singer is trying to match (this can be known by the instrumental music in the background or by a drone)
Even if you do not believe someone’s ears, ‘sureelapan’ can be easily measured by a software called Singing Tutor. When you use this software with a song, if the voice is true-toned and even pitched, you will get a straight line that corresponds to that pitch. Every time you go off-key, the line deviates from the straight line. How much it goes off-key is shown by how much it deviates from the straight line.
So, there are more criteria. But those cannot be measured objectively. The ones I have listed can be measured.
Main saare Rafibhakton ko ek cheez batana chahta hoon:(aur Arghyaji aap ko bhi)
Humein koi zaroorat nahi hai aap logon ki tarah har cheez mein apne idol ko bhagwan sabeed karna,Kishoreda jaise bhi the , pagal the, eccentric the, jo bhi the – woh hamare chahite hai, hamare hero hai, hamare guru hai, hamare adarsh hai,, Humein koi zaroorat nahi hai zabardasti ke kahani sunakar yahan pe unko Maseeha ya Farishta sabid karne ka,, Woh insaan hi achhe hai aur insaan hoke unhone aur lakhon insaanon ke dil jeete hai, unki zindagi savari hai wohi kafee hai hamare liye.
Aap log migratory birds ki tarah yahan pe aake 2-4 story bolke Kishore ko chhota nahi deekha sakte,, yeh kaam Binu Nair ko bolo jaake rafi forum mein kare,, wahan pe anil biswas, rd burman,kishore kumar jiski marzi jo gandi gandi story bana sakta hai banaao, unko haiwaan sabeed karo aur rafi ko aur upar uthaao humein koi parwaha nahi hai!!
Arghyaji aap ka naam is liye liya, kyunki aap yeh sab ut patang chhezein pooch ke unko aur mauka de rahe hai kishore ko chhota karne ka,, aap achhe bhakt hai, guruji ke gaane suniye, achhe achhe articles likhiye wohi kaafi hai!! Rafisaab ne 1-2 baar zabardasti mein chhodke aur kabhi bhi Kishore ki taarif nahi ki kyunki woh darte the,, woh achhe insaan the yeh baat ekdum sahi hai,magar the to professional hi na?? Aur unke woh “dukhi man mere” wala comment, arghyaji aap ko bata doon, 1960s mein unhone kiya tha,jab unko pata tha 1-2 chhezein achhe bolne se koi farak nahi padhta kyunki main to shehenshah hoon music ka,, wohi baat 1971 mein unko pooch ke dekhte, kya reply rehta,,
Har insaan insaan hota hai,, unko farishta sabeed karne ki darkaar kya hai bhai joab woh insaan banke hi itne saare logon ko entertain kar sakta hai, unki zindagi aur haseen bana sakta hai??
Koi kuchh jawab mat dijiyega yeh sab kahaniyon ka.. haan bhai theek hai, hamare kishoreda bhagwan nahi the, app log apne bhagwan ko leke khush raho, humare insaan kishoreda hazaron maseeha se achhe hai!!
Mr.Bose:
Speaking of Kishore’s ‘taans’, I can’t quite reach a logical conclusion from all the things you have written so far. You said Kishore’s ‘taans’ are better than Rafi’s (when done while switching notes). You also said Kishore’s ‘taans’ comes naturally. So, Rafi with his training couldn’t do a ‘technical’ thing which Kishore did naturally; Isn’t that what you are saying or am I not reading it right?
If this is the case, who decides whether Kishore’s ‘taans’ are good or not? It is natural and it is different, right? The best trained classical expert can judge a ‘taan’ only on the basis of what he has learnt; so how he is going to judge the Kishore ‘taan’ which is natural and different from every one else’s.
Applying similar logic, can a Rafi fan be faulted if he/she says that Rafi’s ‘duniya ke rakhwale’ is the best sung song in the ‘Darbari Kannada’? Rafi sang it well and naturally; I mean he didn’t execute all those typical ‘classical expert-ish’ ‘taans’, ‘mukhris’ et al. If his ‘taans’ where done differently from the more ‘traditional’ way, it is only because Rafi wanted it to be so.
Extending this line of reasoning, isn’t it possible that there could be a amateur singer (a natural one at that) somewhere who can sing these ‘taans’ etc better than a well-trained classical expert?
By the way, your links on Kishore’s ‘taans’ don’t seem to be capable of substantiating a thing. Is there something more convincing than ‘meraa-aaa….’ and ‘wadaa-aa…’.
As I promised I will be there this weekend with at least 6 Rafi taans.
Smitha
//I feel Rafi didn’t consider anyone else his equal//
I really dont think so,, because this line entirely contradicts to your anothe r line //These saintly people (Rafi deserves to be counted among them)//
Saintly people are never “arrogant”,,
As regards our “wondeful story teller of Kishore’s mischief”-Mr. Nair- if your Kishore hatred has reduced a bit or your “allergy” towards listening good things about Kishore has reduced a bit- sir, please humein apne “swaroop” mein hi darshan dijiye,,
Aur haan, fikar mat kijiyega Nairsaab, yahan pe Rafisaab ki ya fir un logon ki jinhone Kishore ko zyada support nahi diya- unki izzat poori tarah se di jaati hai,,, To aap bhi aaiyega, khud chalke!!
Prabhajan wrote: “I equate Rafiji charging BR Chopra a huge sum for one Waqt song ”
I’m sure you know how the rest of the story goes? When Ravi came to give Mohammed Rafi his fee, the great singer immediately told him to distribute it amongst the musicians! So you are right – there was no selfishness involved.
This was a case of Rafi Sahab maintaining his well deserved dignity when BR Chopra was making such an big fuss over nothing and delaying the movie because of that one song where he did not want Rafi. What a fitting reply from the legendary singer!
Yes, for Chalti Ka Naam ZINDAGI – Rafi Sahab wanted only 1 rupee but Kishore da literally forced him to accept more! 🙂
Nasir Sahab,
Thanks so much for that great story! It’s very generous of you to share these priceless stories / experiences known to you that are a rare treat a lot of us from generations down. I knew a saintly man like Rafi Sahab would express the same love and affection that he received but those stories are hard to come by because he was an introvert. I’m sure you’ve heard this story (I’m not sure if you are the same Nasir who told us this tory) but a man from Rafi Sahab’s town came to Rafi Sahab’s house asking for help. He had four daughters and he needed money for the oldest to get married. So Rafi Sahab asks him how much money would accomplish the wedding and the man replies an X amount. Rafi Sahab tells him to return the next day and he’d have the sum ready. Man comes again and Rafi Sahab receives him without fail. Rafi Sahab hands him the X amount of money….and then hands him 3X of the same amount and tells him this is for the other three daughters! The only condition that Rafi Sahab attached to this is that the man could not tell anyone that Rafi Sahab gave him this money or was involved in any way! The man only revealed this story after Rafi Sahab’s death when he felt he could then share it. A lot of people realized Rafi Sahab was the benefactor because checks would stop coming only after the legend’s untimely death.
Thanks again for that wonderful story. These are stories you don’t read in books.
Mr.Bose:
I am writing from office and can’t be too detailed now, but will come back during the weekend with more.
I will agree with most of the criteria that you have listed but then this is not an exclusive list (I don’t think you would claim it to one, either) and I can add some more items.
Anyway, let us talk about them, one by one. When you speak about voice or tonal quality, you are speaking about something which according to you is subjective. You have excluded the ‘sweetness’ element but placed emphasis on ‘even pitched quality of the voice’. I can’t fully get this term but I presume, it is a voice that keeps itself in good shape and control thru various ranges that you mean. If that is the case, most of the better known singers has this quality; Suresh Wadkar would be a good example. Asha definitely has this attribute to her voice. But is the ‘sureelapan’ the most critical factor that differentiates the ‘best’ from the others? Is it what differentiates Lata from Asha? It cannot be. Sureelapan can differentiate good ones from the mediocre ones but when one looks at the very top, there are other factors, sweetness being one of them (even for the male voice). Rafi scores over Kishore in terms of tonal quality just as Lata scores over Asha. Actually we need to have a comparison of the voices thru various stages of their career (which I hope to do sometime soon) and one will find that the only time Kishore matched Rafi interms of voice is at the very beginning and at the final bend.
More later…..
Mr.Arghya:
I have read stories (don’t know if these are facts) about Rafi telling Mukesh, in a private meeting sometimes in the ’60s that Kishore would one day topple both of them.
My personal opinion/ theory is that Rafi never considered Kishore his equal. I have read somewhere that before every recording with Lata, Rafi used to pen down in his diary that ‘a battle of equal forces in on the cards’. I feel Rafi didn’t consider anyone else his equal, though it is well known that he respected every fellow male singers and was especially fond of Manna Dey.
It is also highly likely that Rafi wasn’t in the happiest state of mind in the early ’70s having seen his numero uno position being challenged and one by one his close associates deserting him. Manna Dey, it seems, has also implied that Rafi wasn’t too happy with the events in the early ’70s. One can’t expect Rafi to be too diplomatic either. These saintly people (Rafi deserves to be counted among them) aren’t the most diplomatic ones. They speak what they feel is ‘right’ and ‘truth’.
But then, Kishore got this ‘the key to the kingdom is yours’ blessing from Rafi (as Amit Kumar reports) and that I think is the biggest compliment that Kishore has received from anyone in his life.
Nassir saab,
Who is Mr. Nair?? Could you kindly ask him to come to this discussion himself??
The story you gave again does not solve my problem as I think(no offfence please), it was a “sarcastic” remark,, I have heard of that incidence earlier also from another Rafi fan( clearly to prove how bad human being KK was),, They naturally forget all those great things KK used to say openly in public about Rafi even when he was more popular than Rafi..
Prabhanjan,,
Yes dear I know that Naushadsaab incidence,, And I am damn sure on Naushad’s comments on Kishore, Rafisaab would have kept silence and nothing more,, Naushad giving only one song to Kishore in his entire career, and then forcefully removing the song from the original movie(Sunehera Sansar), and removing KK’s name from the credit title of the movie and never ever coming back to him again for any other song, sometimes, makes me feel as if he was trying to “prove a point against Kishore” there… Anyways, he was a great music director and I have great respect for him,,
But, if someone “genuinely” has some good remarks of Rafisaab on Kishore’s singing(apart from “Dukhi Man Mere”), request to kindly share,,
I can immediately hand over at least 10-15 “great open hearted” remarks of Kishore(not any cup of tea sarcasm) , even an evidence , who saw in his eyes Kishore slapping a fan who came to him and said “Apne to Rafi ki chutti kar di”,,,
@arghya: About that Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi incident. I read (99% here or at mohdrafi.com) that Rafi charged only Re.1/- for one song or so.
Interestingly when in 70’s the down slide started we know Naushad taking Rafi to his home and saying things like you can’t go down to a non-classical singer like KK, etc. But not much is known about Rafis dialogues on that occasion. IF any against KK, my feeling is that they would have defenitely surfaced long back.
However, its not surprising that a saintly man like him should necessarily reciprocate all the admiration that KK showered on Rafi is what I believe.
On the other hand these saintly (with respect) people do take the hard decisions if required. I equate Rafiji charging BR Chopra a huge sum for one Waqt song to that of Rahul Dravid who boldly declared the innings when Sachin was 194 n.o. For me at least, there was no selfishness in Dravid’s decision 🙂
Mr Nair has requested me to write a post here,,I am Nassir older most of people here,,I`m among those luckiest few who has met both Rafi saab and kishore kumar,,,In my blog same question was asked, anyway,,,there is a event after Aradhana,when kishore kumar became a super star,,,,kishore often known for his careless nature,,,there was organised a concert,,in which Kishore kumar was a singer and other singer ws Mohd Rafi,,,in offscreen kishore kumar scolded the organiser for what was the reason to cal Rafi for singing,,,he was so loud that Rafi saab did came to know about Kishore kuma`r anger,,there was tea break then,,both the singer was sitting in a room,,,then tea for Rafi saab came,,,Rafi suddenly drank the remains of the tea that kishore kumar had left in cup,,Kishore was surprised to see it,,,,then Rafi saab answered,,”aapka jhoota pi liya ab mera bhi sahi sur lag sakega,,aur aap ke saath gaa sakunga””till then kishore kumar was one of the greatest Rafi fan!
Hi Smitha,
Glad that you agreed that Rafi had his limitations. Kishore has his too. But, inspite of his limitations, his range and versatility is very much comparable to Rafi.
Well, like you said, let’s agree to disagree. In any case, my being a Kishore fan has nothing to do with putting up a case for him being comparable to Rafi. I am being entirely objective and basing my claims on measurable criteria. Let me define every criteria that I am basing my claim on, and you can then let me know if Kishore is really not comparable to Rafi. Can I likewise say that your claim to Rafi being superior to Kishore is based on your being a Rafi fan. I can show you knowledgeable Rafi fans who themselves never make this claim.
The criteria I am using (for measuring any *singer*) are:
Tone of the voice or ‘sureelapan’ – not how sweet the voice is, just whether it is even pitched
The ability to sing sustained notes on lower, middle, and upper scales – or the level of voice control
The ability to transition smoothly across octaves (without going off-key at any point during the transition)
The ability in transitioning smoothly from his chest voice to his head voice and vice versa, plus how much control he has over his head voice.
Whether he can sing totally flat or whether he can sing with resonance as required by the song
Finally the range of his voice within which the singer has maximum control.
Kishore very ably compares to Rafi in every one of these categories. They might differ in their strengths but they more or less complement each other. There is not one category from the above where you can claim Kishore is not comparable to Rafi, overall.
Just hear the taans he pulls off in this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tciligWD6_I
Kishore comes in at about 5:00.
Most people claim “Rafi has sung classical songs and Kishore has not, and so Rafi is superior to Kishore”. It doesn’t work that way. Rafi’s greatness as a singer and playback singer is easily established without having to use the “classical” card. But while many Rafi fans do use the classical card, they, at the same time, object if someone knowledgeable find flaws in his classical renditions. The thing is you cannot have the cake and eat it too. Going by the same token, one could claim “Kishore can yodel better than Rafi can, and so Kishore is superior to Rafi”. One is as valid or invalid as the other.
I can point out other classically knowledgeable people who are not Kishore fans or Rafi fans, and you can ask them if Rafi was really that good a classical singer to be considered so superior to Kishore. In fact, I can point out posts from one of the most die-hard Rafi fans, one who is classically learnt and has his own radio show on classical music. He knows me very well. He is Sanjeev Ramabhadran. He is a diehard Rafi fan, and he has his own website:
http://www.sureelesapne.com/
And he admitted many times in our RMIM social meets that he could never decisively claim Rafi to be the better singer than Kishore. You can read it in his own words here:
You can read his post yourself. It’s the third post in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.indian.misc/browse_frm/thread/5d33e24ced3cefdc/86356956f0692bca?lnk=gst&q=#86356956f0692bca
Talking about other singers, Manna Dey is probably technically superior to Rafi and Kishore, but he lacks in the emotional department. Mukesh is comparable in the emotional department, but he is apt to go off-key very often and required the maximum retakes among the three. Plus his vocal range was limited. Talat is very good technically and aesthetically, but his range is very limited. He has his niche though and he is the king in that niche.
I don’t know from where Savita got her source of info from, but an old acquaintance of mine, a fellow classical music student and also exponent – Rajan Parrikar, had personally met Kishore Kumar and actually asked him about his training in music. [ Just check out the last photo in this page: http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit11142005/musicarts.asp ].
Kishore himself told Rajan that he had no formal training in music, none whatsoever. He was a pure natural. Nobody taught Kishore to execute those taans and murkhis. How do we know this ? By his singing. Kishore’s style of singing is very different from Rafi’s, Manna Dey’s, or even Talat’s. And all of them were trained.
Nobody taught Kishore yodelling. He learnt it and mastered it himself, giving it his own unique touch. Nobody taught Kishore how to compose tunes. And yet he composed some of the most beautiful tunes in music. Every song from “Door gagan ki chaon mein”, and many songs from “Jhumroo”, and even “Door ka rahi” are gems. The truth is, Kishore had a feel for music that very few people have. He was truly gifted. He had a spontaneity that is very rare.
Nobody could have sung “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” (from “Half Ticket”) except Kishore. And remember, this song was supposed to be a duet with Lata. Lata, for some reason, couldn’t make it and Kishore suggested *right there* in the studio that he can sing in both voices. That’s how spontaneous he was.
So, like I said, I may be a Kishore fan, but I don’t base my claim for him to be comparable to Rafi or him being natural on my personal feelings. I have met people who talked to him personally. I have met some very well trained and knowledgeable music fans who are Rafi fans, and who still do not claim Rafi to be superior to Kishore.
well that not beloved rafi saab,,in last line its rather raju,,,for which stupid is used,,,,,sorry for literal error that I habituated of making…
well, Arghya,,,,thats the only reason I have invited every one in this discussion on your behalf,for I really wanted the word admiration and not atall ego as bridge between the fans Kis da and my beloved Rafi saab for I really don`t like the word fued,,,,,there was a movie of kishore da`s elder brother
Hi Savita!!
Nice to know you also are thinking on the same line of me!!
Trust me, I never ever want to know this because “I want to prove a point against Rafi fans”,,, Trust me!! i only want to know this because this is one thing which is not getting matched with the Rafisaab’s saintly personality,, Blame it on Raju Bharathan!! I heard a story(only story mind you!!) that in the 70s, when Kishore was on top, Rafi and Mukesh met in a party,, Mukesh told Rafi ” I had told you,no, that the day this Kishore starts taking singing seriously, both of us would be in trouble??”” and Rafi(again,according to sources) preferred to keep mum rather than to say good things about Kishore…
I really, from the bottom of my heart, really want to know all the good things Rafisaab said about Kishoreda,, And please, don’t take me as a fanatic, that one day I would use those comments to prove Kishore>Rafi!! Those who know me, only know how much respect I carry for both of them!! It is only a mismatch, that is all!!
If someone can help me, it would be well and good!!
well the last query by Arghya is adressed to respected Manish ji,,,yet its not a personal domain rather a public talk page,,so on behalf of arghya I also invite every reader to contribute on this question in eirther way for both Rafi and kishore da that Arghya asked as it would mould our discussion in very pleasent context,,,for in this way we will add the words of appricitation or admiration something rare for talk page,,,And moreover Arghya being my affectionate younger brother can never deny me! Believe it or not I have also been thinking on same context by last few days,,,,and I`m going to take my place in this discussion as a unwelcomed guest,,for I also had to say something,,,
Manishji..
I had some queries which I think only you can address,, A very sensitive query and I dare not ask this to any other Rafian apart from you,, And this is more to my ignorance let me admit it frankly,,
The query is I have at least 12-15 occassions/remarks/intterviews where Kishore had shown his deep respect and love towards Rafisaab,,, Many times on stage paying tribute, many times to his personal associates and many times to filmy parties openly,, But the same vice versa from Rafisaab has been lower IMHO considering Rafi was a saint like person, very humble,modest and down to earth, I just think he also should have admitted Kishore’s vocal skill the same way Kishore had admitted him,,
Definitely, that “Dukhi Man Mere” appreciation is well known(that also came as a counter view from him after Kishore’s appreciation to his singing) and Rafi fans cite only this example whenever they talk about Rafisaab’s admiration of Kishore,,,
But ain’t there more?? I tried to find out from many places,,, Then I gave up this topic altogether considering rafisaab was never vocally very strong person and used to keep his admiration within himself only… I got hold of an incidence, that during the making of “Chalti Ka Naam Zindagi”. released in 1981, Kishore wanted Rafi to sing for his composition and approached Rafi to which Rafi said “Are bhai, tum music director ho aur main na gaaon aesa ho sakta hai”??? definitely, a clear appreciation from him to Kishore,,
Is there any more?? If yes, request you to kindly share them here,,,
All the while I was driving from my home to office, this interesting point raised by Mr. Manish was revolving in my head- who were actually close to Kishore??
I broke the entire industry into three segments, based on personal rapport with Kishore- a) Very positive and close relation b) Good relation but mainly on the basis of professional association, I mean, before entering Kishore’s bedroom, they definitely needed an appointment but most of the time they were obliged by Kishore, I hope the distinction is clear and c) No, or lukewarm or sometimes negative relation,
In class (a), 5% of the industry fell, IMO, like Satyajit Ray, RD Burman, SD Burman, Bappi Lahiri, Dev Anand,Shyamal Mitra, Danny, Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosle,Sunil Dutt,Mehmood,Rajesh Khanna,Shomu Mukherjee and Tanuja etc.. Remember, this relation was irrespective of Kishore’s professional association with them, they were almost like family members to Kishore, very close friends and his associates in his joy and sorrow.
Class (c), another 5% , who had “nothing to say about Kishore” unless particularly asked (Jaidev, Rajendra Kumar, Shammi Kapoor, Raj Kapoor), or never really “bothered” about Kishore(Naushad) or sometimes have “negative relationship or feedback” with Kishore( OP Nayyar).
Rest 90% people fell into the class(b) for Kishore Kumar including Laxmikant Pyarelal(399 songs for them by Kishore!), Kalyanji Anandji, Rajesh Roshan, Anand Bakshi, Majrooh, Khayyam etc.-ie, all the actors,music directors, producers, song writers and directors.. They have more to talk about “professional Kishore” than “Kishore as a person”…
Salilda is somewhat more than (b), but not actually into (a). Same for Uttam Kumar and Hemant Kumar,, They were definitely much more than “professional associates” , a touch of “personal” for Kishore,, they were like “good pals”… Salil and Hemant’s contribution to the music arrangement for the 25 Rabindrasangeets which Kishore recorded in 1978 and 1986, clearly shows they were “up anytime to help Kishore”,,, Uttam-the bengali superstar- also had a great personal “rapport” with Kishore although “professionally not that much active”..
Manishji,,
Nice query raised by you,, Yeah, that is why they say whether even closest friends of Kishore like Danny or Asha Bhosle or RDB were ever been able to understand this man,, He played truance with SD Burman also in 1958 if you know!! SD Burman- who was a fatherly figure and a true mentor for him,, I also don’t know the actual reason, some say it was his overflowing acting commitments those days,, But Dada Burman was definitely unhappy and he put Kishore out of his recording baton for 6 long years!! And also, replacing him as the “voice of Dev Anand” with Mohd. Rafi,,, But, come 1965, Kishore was more serious with his “professional” tie ups with Dada Burman and never let loose until the last days!!
I am not sure of Pancham story(perhaps becuase Pancham would not have mind that much,for him everything in Kishore was excetional), but even Lata and Asha- his two younger sisters,in his own words- had their shares of misunderstanding with him,,, But, that did not make them keep it too long and normalcy prevailed soon,,
Hrishida did not have any problem with Kishore apart from that “Anand” story,, And I think it was more like “Kishore being forced to do something which he did not want to” rather than ” revolting Hrishida”,, Honestly,, As come the immediate next movie of Hrishida-“Budhha Mil Gaya”(1971), Kishore was again back to his production with more vigour!! But yes, “Anand” was a definite loss, “Although Mukeshji sang “Kahi door jab din dhal jaye” beautifully, it was a song with Kishore written all over it!! Honestly, the genre, the range, the mood, the actor(:))- all were in Kishore’s zone in that song to hit a sixer!!
He dissapointed many people, but it was good no one kept it prolonged,, He was fast to accept if something was wrong from his side- which Lata admitted several times, he was a kid at heart-Asha said so many times and he was an artistic genius- which India says every second!!
Hi Manish,
Let me try to find more appropriate examples for the points I was trying to highlight.
To answer your question, yes, that part of “Jis path par dekhe kitne” does go a little lower than “Akelaaaa”. Clarity is good enough in the Rafi song but the tonal quality suffers a bit. When I talk about definition, it is more about the tonal quality. Having heard a lot of songs by Rafi, I agree that there are songs where the huskiness seems to be by design but even otherwise it is evident that his tonal quality suffers some when he tries to go really low.
Try to imagine the tonal quality of the voice as a dark line of uniform thickness and with a clear outline (what I meant by ‘definition’). When the voice stays within it’s comfort zone, the line maintains it’s uniformity as well as outline. When the voice goes beyond it’s comfort zone, the outline of the line develops some glitches or spikes or “noise”. The outline is therefore not as crisp or regular as it was before (hence, the loss of ‘definition’) and this essentially means the line (or tonal quality) is no longer uniform in thickness. When the singer puts in a twist or harkat intentionally – and within his comfort zone – the whole line takes the twist but without losing it’s outline (imagine the line curving into a U). That is the best analogy that I can give to convey what I mean.
Another better comparision is between these two songs. The first one is one of Rafi’s lowest scaled songs (IMO, he wouldn’t have been able to pull it off later on in his career).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJOxsI20UF0
And compare that to this song by Kishore which is mostly in the same scale (esp. most of the mukhda and the middle of the antara) though there is a lot more variation within this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGS-INWQjwQ
Rafi definitely seems more at the edge of his comfort zone as compared to Kishore.
BTW, this is not a knock on Rafi. It’s just that his voice allowed him to go to a higher scale than Kishore’s, while, conversely, Kishore could go lower than Rafi could. When I say “could” or “could not”, we must remember that it’s not about just reaching the scale, it’s more about where the “meat” of their voice lay. And therefore, who was more comfortable at that extreme scale. Go back to the line analogy.
Now here is another nice comparision regarding the style of singing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkoS40HGkEs&feature=PlayList&p=655BCB6F251416F8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=42
This song is sung by Rafi in Talat style – meaning, in maintaining a nearly uniform volume as he traverses the range of the song. Seen in isolation, it is quite ably rendered though his tonal quality dips a little whenever he goes low (like in “Sunaon main” from the mukhda “Tujhe kya sunaon main dilruba”).
And here is the original version of this song, by Talat , also set to the same tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_3OxcTXZiw&feature=related
Just see how beautifully he traverses the range of the song without losing his tonal quality at any point. Further, he puts in so many harkats or frills on the lyrics as he goes about the song.
It’s one of my favourites by any singer. It’s at the peak of Talat’s career, when he was the most sought after singer, esp. for Dilip Kumar, and he also sang for Raj Kapoor and even Dev Anand.
And this song by Kishore is also in the Talat mould as well. He also doesn’t do nearly as well as Talat, but he is definitely more comfortable than Rafi was and deftly negotiates some intricate passages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLL_MbcHBFM
All three are mainly using their head-voice.
Coming back to the song from “Maya”, Rafi also has a “stepping stone” for the climb between “Jahan” and “hai”. There is a pause between these two words. Truth is, both are awkward in that part of this song. Lata hits the desired note but the scale is too high for her (I can picture her wiping her forehead as she tries to hit the scale) and she is almost at the limits of her zone, while the scale is definitely within Rafi’s zone but he didn’t hit the same note as Lata.
Mr.Bose:
Thank you for the nice songs, enjoyed listening to them. ‘Husn bhi hai’, I especially liked. Kishore sounds like the perfect cross between Saigal and Talat in it.
Now to your comments on Rafi and Kishore. I have absolutely no issues in admitting that Rafi have his limitations, but I wouldn’t agree that Kishore matches up to him (if that is what you mean by ‘comparable’) as a singer. As a playback singer, yes, Kishore is at least comparable but as a singer, no, no. Two male singers from HFM who could rival him in the ‘singing’ department were Manna Dey (as a total pack) and Talat (in terms of pristine voice and soulfull singing). Kishore, good as he is and despite your all out effort to prove otherwise, does have many limitations (much more than Rafi has).
‘Kishore is natural, Rafi is practised’ is too generalised a statement. I have heard many people opining the same but almost all of them fall within two categories- either casual music followers (which I know you are not) or those who like Kishore more than Rafi (which I know you are). You don’t have to look anywhere else but the link posted by Savita just below to find out that Rafi was not just ‘practised’. Kishore was not ‘only natural’ either. One doesn’t learn the ‘taans’ and ‘mukhris’ (for once, I am with you that Kishore could manage these things), naturally; they have to be taught.
Arghya: I agree with your precise comments about Jaanu Meri Jaan. I sensed the same in the lines you mentioned. This is what I meant by saying Rafi was not his usual self but more serious in this song. I’ll elaborate more later.
Rohit: I have Derek Bose’ book on Kishore Kumar. Doesn’t really tell me much that I didn’t already know. I wonder if there are other books that will give more than just general, standard info. Someday I will order the entire collection from Vishwas Nerurkar. Although I hear his books are morefor the database rather than author content.
I understand Kishore’s hardball antics with producers or with select people in the industry. He had excellent reason to do it. What I don’t understand is why Kishore did the following: (1) Ignore Hrishikesh Mukherjee when the famed director considered him for Anand. (2) At some points ignore his close friend and great MD RD Burman. I hear there were times where RD wanted Kishore but Kishore ignored the call. I was clarified that it wasn’t because Kishore was unable to manage his busy schedule (3) The anecdote Arghya posted in his article about Salil being ignored by Kishore for several movies. I don’t understand this. Once again, Salil was a very positive partner with Kishore.
Like I said, I fully support Kishore’s antics with heartless people in the industry. I understand his “eccentricities” (with shoddy reporters or tax people of India). I realize Kishore was often disturbed with personal problems (even in the 80s when his son and wife would argue as people do – Kishore would not get involved but cry to himself. OK, this stuff depresses me…..back to comparisons lol jk). But why would Kishore be “eccentric” with RD Burman (most surprisingly) or Salil / Hrishikesh Mukherjee? Exactly what does that mean? Saying he was “eccentric” for the first category of people is perfectly understandable to me but not with a close friend, good, innocent person, and genius MD like RD Burman.
Would like to know more about Kishore da and would like to request knowledgeable people here to add some hidden stories about Kishore da rather than comparing him to anyone ..
We should feel proud that India has produced the talent like Kishore Da– Truly great Artist , and of course we are privileged to have a Great singers like Rafi and Lata as well.
Let’s discuss Kishore’s other specialties too, more specifically his matchless comedy.
I consider Rafi and Lata to be the greatest playback singers, and Kishore da is my most favorite artist …
It doesn’t matter whether he was no.1 or no.2 or whatever, the truth is that he was and extraordinary talent and people loved him and still love him..
These days exploring Kishore’s mind blowing comedy, he was definitely one of the best comedians..
Hi Smitha,,
Thanks yaar for so many good words for Kishoreda!!! Ya sometime I behave as if Kishore Kumar is my own property just like so many of his fans do..:)),, This happens when consistently for 22 years you listen to a singer and love him so much…:)),,, Rafisaab is very much respectable for me and I am an dmirer, but somwhow, the “love” and “affection” has always been more for KK!!
Cheers,,,
Mr.Arghya:
Your querry is intersting! What is Kishore good at? Honestly I don’t consider myself an authority to answer this one, therefore I’d rather tell you “What I like Kishore for”.
I like his voice; that voice was good and strong (and fresh) in the late’ 60s/early ’70s. His young voice was also good but not in the Talat class (I am comparing with Talat because I feel Talat’s is the voice to compare in terms of quality in the early ’50s and because Kishore’s voice texture was a bit Talat-like when he was young).
Mr.Bose has already pointed out the ‘verve’, the ‘energy’ and I agree with him fully. Kishore at his prime was a little like Shah Rukh (at his prime) on screen; Full of raw energy.
I like the way Kishore sang many of his songs- it was good, it was touching and it was different.
I like Kishore for his brilliant play back skills. The then new generation actors (I am speaking about the transition period of the early ’70s) should thank him for all those superb play back jobs Kishore had done for them.
I think I have to pause here for the time being; I would be happy to tell you more about the singer you love the most.
as far as freshness is concerned listen to this song of black n white era and judge urself if this kinda song be a block buster with melody in this new millenium techno music as well,,,,,
plz listen atleast one line,,,,,and as far as versality is concerned listen to other song of the same movie u`ll get the answer….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_k5y-QD7no&feature=related
Rafians are guest here as its Kis da`s site,,Rafians are here only for this article includes the name of Rafi saab as a theme with kis kum,they r here to represent their idol yet its immpossible to to represnt anyone for we have our ego with our choice,hence,,critical words like rikshaw waala voice etc to others are really shamefull remarks,this kind of remarks are simply ego and has nothing to do with the legends Like kis da or rafi saab,to make any one great we need not to make mean statement,,as ,,to a Rafian,,,Rafi`s voice can`t be compared with anyone,,,and they feel astonished when anyone compares Rafi saab with other singer,,,,some claims its the voice of god, many may not agree esp in this site but no one can deny shrine-ness of the Rafi`s divine voice,,,but this kind of discussion enhance a proud feeling in a rafian as well,and sometimes a feeling of disgust,,,from,,Shehgal,manna de, talat,mukesh,Kishore da,lata,asha,anup jalota,,jagjit shing,mehndi hassan,or any qawaal singer to todays udit narayan sonu nigam,javed ali,,every one`s fan compare Rafi`s voice with them yet they say Rafi is less versatile,,its something strange to a Rafian,,if a kis da fan compare Rafi with kis kum,,,they admit or not but they compare Rafi with the same stage with kis da,thats why kis da fan comapre rafi saab in 70s or early 80s only and Rafi fan are agree to have their words to just this refrence only and never admit Kis kum respect for Rafi a singer,,but than to youtube where someone uploaded a song in which kis da giving tribute to rafi saying him elder brother,,, similarly,shehgal fan for nasal () in fact its not really nasal its rather naad a sanskrit term that means virah-longingness,,as in the song of year 1949 suhani raat dhal chuki,,in orginal version we find naad with longingness,and nasal song era ended with this song,,,talat mehmmod fan`s comapre with gazal only,,Manna de`s fan compare with classical only,gulam ali fan `s for urdu rend`tion,,and lata`s fan for melody,asha`s for modulation,,,,etc,,,…so much in just one man,,,they want to rate Rafi saab down for freshness,,,just go to song har gam ko dhuyen me udata chala gya how mordern that voice is and listen to other song of the movie ham dono u`ll find same age old voice of other singer,,,,even in last era,,1977 “kya hua tera waada”,its rather a rock song,,like brian adams and all,, ,thats rarest for India,,……
Now to some of kis da fan….not all but some like Surajit A. Bose, who give kishore kumar credit to the song that rafi sang,”yamma yamma”,actually,,I`ve met many Kis da fan who praise kis da for the song That Rafi sang,,in fact I was also one of them,,,like most of youngster I felt its like crime to take Rafi name in public,,I liked din dhal jaye of guide and hai duniya usi ki zamana usika song and many other Rafi song, used to say every where what a voice kis da has!,,,
Hi Smitha,
Fair enough, let’s agree to disagree as far as the technical aspects are concerned.
Coming to the part where we discussed about the freshness of their voices, there is more to it than just the voice itself. Granted that Rafi had more mileage by then, but I was also talking about the zest for singing, the verve, the energy. And Kishore always had that – right from “Jeevan ke safar mein rahi” to “Meri soni meri tamanna” to “Ae oh ah, ah oh aaha” (Disco Dancer).
Since we have already discussed about the technical aspects, I wanted to talk about their different approach to singing as well. I will come to that later.
There might be songs in the late 70’s where Kishore might have got lazy as far his voice modulation is concerned, but there are other songs where he was right on cue. For example, compare his voice in “Khushiyan yehi pe milenge hai mere” from “Des Pardes” when he sings for Dev Anand to “Khaike paan banaraswala” when he sings for Amitabh in “Don”. Both movies are in the same year and yet he sings for Dev Anand in a light, frothy tone as compared to the deep baritone for Amitabh. Similarly, compare his tone in “Yama yama” from “Shaan” to that in “Humein tumse pyar kitna” from “Kudrat”, again both roughly being within a year of each other.
But then, personally, I think the quality of music deteriorated significantly post-1975, and I never cared much for the late 70’s and nearly whole of the 80’s.
Manishji,,,
IMHO, in “Jaanu meri jaan” Kishore “enacted” the song better than Rafisaab,,, You are right in saying “the song was too easy for both of them”,,yes, definitely, nothing great “technically” to speak about, but Kishore made small nuances to the mood of the song like “main terrrra tu merrrri”, where Rafi sang it plain-advantage Kishore!! Kishore’s voice was much jolier in the antara of “nazron se na tol mujhe…” compared to Rafi’s “Gusse se hai pyar bada…”,,, Singingwise, there, I agree, is nothing to compare, but “enactment of a song” was better for Kishore,,IMHO though…
“Kishore was a nonsinger”!!!
Well, this is the latest I have heard from Rafi fans,, the last thing I heard was “Kishore had a rickshawwala voice”!!!
Hmm… cool…
Thanks Smitha for the reply!
“Meri zindagi mein..’ is the song which depicts unrequited love the best in HFM. That sarcastic little laugh at ‘to kuch aur baat hoti….’ is a class act.”
>> Exactly! It is very classy!
“But is this a low-scaled song? I believe Rafi has hit much lower notes in songs like ‘aaj is darja…’ (in its middle part), ‘toothe hue khabon….’, etc. Let me try to provide links to some of songs in which Rafi goes low, later.”
>> I deliberately picked that song, even if it wasn’t Rafi’s lowest scale song, because it is low enough and IMO Rafi is clearly clear 🙂
“Aaj is darja pila do” is one of my favorite sad songs. Excellent composition from Chitragupta and lyrics from Sahir, brilliantly sung by Rafi, and who else but Raaj Kumar could have portrayed it so well on screen! My favorite part is when he sings the highest part of the song: “saltanat Zulm, Kuda Waham Museebat Hai Samaaj”. I love the way his voice reverberates as he sings “Samaaaaaj”.
“Mr. Bose is correct on the ‘huskiness’ part of Rafi’s voice. But lack of definition?”
>> Yes, I think Rafi maintains definition in his voice and the words are pronounced / sung clearly.
“but to me (and many others) this factor actually enhances the appeal of that voice”
>> Me too! The huskiness in “Tumse Kahoon Ek Baat” added an appropriate effect to the scene.
“Speaking of voices, Rafi’s voice is a ‘harmonised’ one. When he sings, it is not just the ‘direct’ sound waves that hit your ears, rather the direct punch is accompanied by the sweeter harmonic sound waves. This is what gives his voice that thick and layered feel. K.J.Yesu Das’ voice also has this property.”
>> That’s an excellent observation. This helped Rafi to maintain a versatile voice and modulate his vocal attributes at will. I never thought of it in this precise terms – I’ll remember this. 🙂
As for the duet “Jaanu Meri Jaan”, I don’t notice any advantage from Kishore for the part in question. Yes I do notice that Rafi tips off the last n in “hindustaaan” lightly but that doesn’t say much IMO. This part is way too easy for Rafi (even if this was the last 1-4 songs Rafi sang for RD Burman before his death). Even I can sing that part and I’m no Kishore Kumar Now the mood of this song is kind of strange. At first both are cheerful and towards the middle they sound more serious. Both singers express both moods at different parts of the song but Rafi seems to sing more “seriously” than his usual self. Just nitpicking. I liked the instrumental music arranged by Pancham but the song itself did not call out the special qualities of either Rafi or Kishore IMO. Both were good.
“It’s all in good spirits.”
I know that! I’m sure you know that’s true the other way around too.
You talked about Kishore’s voice sounding fresher in the 70s. IIRC & roughly speaking, Kishore sang ~3000 songs in his career total whereas Rafi sang ~5000 songs. Kishore sang ~300 songs before 1969, ~1200 songs in the 70s, and by POI I’ll guess ~1500 songs in the 1980s. Rafi sang ~1000 songs in the 1970-1980. By 1972 Rafi would have rendered 4200 (far more than what Kishore would have done for the next 15 years) songs whereas Kishore had done ~550. Talk about mileage! 4200 vs 550! Even if my numbers are not even in the same ballpark, the trend is clear. So yes Kishore’s voice was pristine in the 70s whereas we saw difference with Rafi but there’s a good reason for that. This is why when you buy a car the warranty is either 10 years OR 100,000 miles whichever comes first. Of course, Rafi’s ill health in the last few years of his life did not help his consistency.
“This is an awesome song sung by and composed by Kishore. Listen to how he tails off at “kitne” in “Jis path par dekhe kitne” starting from 00:52. There is no huskiness.”
Yes! I concur. Thank you for sharing this gem of a song.
Now compare that part which you pointed out to, Rafi’s “Itni Badi Duniya Jahan Itna Bada Mela Magar Mein Kitna Akelaaa” at :21 and his line at 1:00 “kitna akeala”. For your convenience here is the link for the song again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yAk6mBxjU
Out of curiosity, is Kishore’s line sung at a lower scale than one or both of those lines?
I still think that Rafi’s voice is very nicely *defined* as he sings that low scale song. What I mean is that I can clearly and easily make out the words he sings. It is not like Rafi’s voice gets fuzzy. The huskiness of Rafi’s singing does not affect the clarity of his singing and some fans will actually appreciate that effect in songs whereas others will not. Clarity is an objective way to judge this IMO. On the other hand, “Tumse Kahoon Ek Baat” from Dastak has some of the murkiness that you describe. Yet consider the picturization and the theme of that movie and the murkiness seems very appropriate. I’m not saying that’s the reason for the murkiness but it is a possibility.
“In any case, there are a couple of other parts in the song where Rafi’s transition could have been slightly better. In one of the antaras that goes ” Tum.Re dwaar khada ek jogi” followed by an alaap, Rafi, in the alaap, shoots off where he should have gone a little more slowly. The effect is a little jarring.”
I don’t know about this particular example but I know what you mean by “a little jarring”. It’s just a lot of movie makers or MDs like that “little jarring” effect from the playback singer for the sake of the scene. The end of “Tu Hindu Banega” in “Dhool Ka Phool” makes a transition to a man’s frustration with the realities of life and that jarring effect actually works very well. IMO of course.
“However, my main motive then was to show how easily people dismiss “Koi hamdam na raha” because the song doesn’t call any attention to itself. It is not disguised as a classical song but it covers a range of about 2 octaves – about the same as “Man tarpat hari darshan”, and it’s rendered beautifully and could not have been bettered. The same goes for many other songs of Kishore.”
First of all, I agree with you that “Koi Hamdam Na Raha” is rendered beautifully and cannot be bettered. I am not sure what is more amazing- how well he sang it or the fact that he composed it himself. Now just because both songs are 2 octaves does not make them good for comparison. Rafi’s song is very different and has a lot more constraints. This is not to say that it is “harder”. Here’s a great Rafi song that reminds me of “Koi Hamdam Na Rahe”. I don’t know how many octaves it spans but I bet its ~2. He also sings casually and effortlessly like Kishore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksdU-KQyolY
“I disagree with fans using the opinions of other eminent musicians to buttress their claims about why one singer is the greatest. And I am sure you said you disagree with it too.”
ABSOLUTELY! Again, I didn’t post that anecdote concerning Salil to prove Rafi as the greatest. I did it to reveal Salil’s own view (without the “services” of Raju Bharatan) and give context to “Tasveer Teri Dil Mein”. That was my only intention.
“About “Tasveer teri dil mein”, Sudip did point out that Lata had a resting place on “i” in “na’i’non”. But the thing is that that doesn’t help much because she does the major part of the climb in the ‘non’ part of “nainon” – in other words after the “nai” part, so she is not using the ‘i’ to rest between the climbs. It’s not like she starts the climb with “nai”, use the vowel ‘i’ to rest and then continue the rest of the climb. However, I did not wish to correct him because I didn’t want to continue along that track.
When an interesting issue is brought up, I like to get to the bottom of it so that the topic gets resolved and has closure. It doesn’t come up again and again and even if it does it is much faster and easier to resolve or address. I’m glad you clarified for me Anil Biswas’ comment at the Rafi forum by posting links to Sanjeev’s meeting with the maestro. Now whenever it is brought up I have nothing more than a line or two to say and that covers everything that is relevant. I really appreciated that. So I’m sorry to drag you into “Tasveer Teri Dil Mein” ad nauseam but this will be my last remark regarding as I think I’ve said everything I’ve had too and you (and others) have done an extensive job in helping me see it in clear light.
You are right that Lata does not use the ‘I’ part to rest between climbs but rather the climb after the ‘i’. Nevertheless, Sudip was saying that the ‘I’ gives Lata a very nice, stable “runway” to make the ascent in “non”. In contrast, the “jahan hai” part before Rafi’s ascent is not a very good, stable runway. Sudip tried to sing that himself and concluded the same. I’m no Kishore Kumar but I tried to sing the two lines and had an easier time making any effort with “nainon ka kajra” than “jahan hai kadam”.
i make the strangest typos – “Sukh Ke Sab Saath*I*” sorry about that!
Listening to “Zindagi Dene Walee Sun”, I sense that the biggest jump in scale comes one of these points:
:46, 1:48, 2:55 Main yahan geet gee mar gaayaaa
1:15 Raat kat.Thi nahin din guzar.Tha nahin
I *think* Rafi matches that span of scale increase and maintains uniform volume here:
Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZqp7cN8cKY
1:00 “Tera naam ek saajha tu jaa na koooOOOOEEEEE” //uniform volume
1:56-2:04 “Phir Kahe Ko Saari umariya” //uniform volume
2:45 Na kuch tera na kuch meraaaAAAAaaa
3:05 Raaja Ho Ya Rang Sabhi Kaaaaaaaa
I just love the way he sings the last “KooOOOeeeEEEE”
“more comfortable when he was allowed to simultaneously increase the volume or “loudness”, that is when he was allowed to project his “full” voice.”
Up to now, most of the music that I listen to is from the 1960s as that is my favorite era. Rafi’s rising of the volume as he rose in pitch “better suited” the 1960s & 1970s era than Talat’s peaceful style IMO. This is not to say that one was better than the other. As I was reviewing some examples of Rafi going to high pitch, I felt it was very appropriate (and effective) for Rafi to raise his volume in a lot of them. “Sukh Ke Sab Saath” is an appropriate exception in the 70s as it is a bhajan. Mind you, a lot of bhajans are high pitched as that too is appropriate for the genre but this even volume rendition of Rafi is excellent. Within the song, there may be a few other lines that I did not point out where Rafi slightly increases his volume but I don’t sense any discomfort but see it as an artistic decision.
Going by “Sukh Ke Sab Saath” I cannot agree with you that Rafi was uncomfortable increasing his pitch while keeping even volume. I believe he either artistically chose to increase his volume to exploit a certain aspect his voice (as you kindly pointed out) or because that is what the MDs wanted or because it suited the scene. Exploiting a feature is not the same thing as compensating for a weakness IMO. This song from Gopi is one of the finest bhajans I have heard in my life.
“Where I think he struggled a bit was in songs where he had to vary his pitch while maintaining a low amplitude or loudness.”
Can you give me an example where Rafi actually tries to vary his pitch while maintaining a low amplitude? If so, I’d be willing to reconsider my above viewpoint. Up to now it seems that the only indication of Rafi’s struggle is by not seeing him attempt that particular type rendition.
Now for your observation in Parda Hai Parda. I still have a lot of songs to listen but this is an OK example that I can come up with. I’m sure that in the future I’ll run into something better and more specific to your reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lg-Rx25YZk
4:20 “Paaa Ke JaaongaaaaAAAAA” Hear how he first rises in the scale and then does an ascending twirl in the scale to top it off. I think that if Rafi chooses to make straight ascents instead of twirling up it is by artistic choice rather than a matter of comfort.
Later in the weekend I want address some more of the many interesting comments all of you have made!
Mr.Bose:
You got me a bit wrong on ‘the not listening’ part. I am not at all someone who ‘doesn’t hear to anyone other than Rafi’. I haven’t listened to them bcoz I’m in my office fighting against deadlines. You might be surprised to know that I admire Kishore greatly and I would be the first to defend him if someone start calling out “Kishore is a non-singer” or anything of that sort.
I stand my ground on switch of notes et al and you are entitled to stand yours. There is nothing wrong in agreeing to disagree. I would even go on to say (speaking about swich of notes) that Kishore was ‘very good’ at it. I am as thrilled by his smooth ascends and descends in songs like ‘Pal pal dil ke paas’, ‘yeh sham mastani’ and dozens of othere, as any of his fans are. But I can’t agree with you that his switches are more appealing because of the twists or that he executed these twists better than Rafi. Anyway let me see if I can come up with some links of both these singers going thru their acts, sometime in the near future.
Coming to your point on ‘fresh’ voice, I would agree that Kishore’s sounded fresher in the early ’70s but from a different context. Rafi had been singing for everyone and for every situations for a decade and more and perhaps the movie-goers were ready for something different, something ‘fresh’. Kishore was the fresh voice (not necessarily a ‘younger’ voice). Rafi’s voice sounded younger, among the two, for much of their career. Infact in the late ’60s MDs used Rafi on the younger heroes and Kishore on the older characters in the same film, not necessarily because Rafi was the more wanted singer but Kishore’s heavier voice did sound older too. From around mid-’70s both the singers had mixed bag when we speak about voices. Rafi was fluid and young in some songs and rather jaded (by his standards) in some others. Kishore, I feel, didn’t care much for the voice once he was well-established (nor did his fans). I mean he almost stopped modulating his voice and style to suit the actors he play backed for (something he did very well before) and his voice became more of a uni-dimensional, big, booming voice going very well with Amitabh and the rest of the ‘angry’ heroes. Was the was voice sounding young at this stage of his career? I don’t think it was, but then his fans didn’t really care.
Hi Smitha,
I urge you to listen to those songs. You would not find most of those songs anywhere today, they are so rare. Even if you are not a Kishore fan, it would be good if you will listen to them as a consequence of this discussion. It would be unfortunate if you decline to listen to them just because they are not songs of Rafi.
I am not out to prove anything. I just wanted to point out that, like Kishore, Rafi was not as strong in some aspects of singing as he was in some others. Many Rafi fans refuse to even acknowledge that he had an achilles heel. And Kishore is very much comparable to Rafi in the singing department.
Most people just assume Rafi’s superiority over Kishore. It’s not the case. Singing involves a number of aspects. It’s not as simple as who has sung more classical numbers and who hasn’t. One has to dig deeper than that.
Coming back to your points:
1. Of course, I was talking about pre-70’s Kishore. After all, Kishore was just a few yrs younger to Rafi and so his peak is roughly around the same time as Rafi’s. It’s not like Kishore is from the next generation of singers who was born 10-15 yrs after Rafi. It’s to Kishore’s credit that his voice sounded a lot more fresher than Rafi’s did when the 70’s came around. It still sounded like a young man’s voice.
Like I said, it’s not that one style is superior to the other style. But Kishore could sing in either style equally comfortably, while Rafi was more comfortable with belting out songs in high pitch.
2. Well, even if you disagree with me on the second point, the point stands. I don’t consider only “taans” or “murkhis” as the decisive factor here, but I cannot ignore what I have heard. I am not concerned about the number of songs here, but more in what the songs themselves indicate. And the various songs that I have heard of Kishore show that he could ably compete with Rafi when it came to smaller sweeps.
And no, Rafi didn’t score over Kishore (keeping aside the sisters and Manna Dey) when it came to switching registers smoothly or in executing taans/murkhis. Having heard scores of classical singers, I know what it means for a taan/murki to be executed well (or rather, in control). Both were not of the calibre of the sisters (or even Manna Dey), but, between the two, Kishore was more fluid.
To me, Rafi was more comfortable than Kishore when the climb had to be quickly executed, while Kishore was more comfortable when it came to executing twists on the swaras during the climb.
The song “Koi humdum na raha” covers a range of almost two octaves [mandra Pancham to taar Gandhar – or low Pa to high Ga], which is not the greatest but not something to be sneezed at either. His transition is so smooth that it belies the difficulty of covering that range.
And, if you include yodelling, the song “Thandi hawa yeh chandni” from the same movie (“Jhumroo”) covers 2.333 octaves.
To give you an idea of how it compares to some other songs, we have:
Do Sitaron ka Zameen – Rafi, Lata, Kohinoor – Barely covers an octave. Very sweet song though Lata sounds a little pinched at the very top (“Choomta Hai Mere Qadmon Ko Gagan”).
Kya se kya ho gaya – Rafi and Mere naina sawan bhadon (Kishore) – 1.5 octaves
Tu ne mera yaar na milaya and Mori binati suno bhagwan (Bengali) – both by Rafi – one semi-tone short of two octaves.
Among film singers, Yesudas has the best range that I have heard as far as a wide sweep of notes is concerned. I have heard him cover 3 full octaves.
3. And yet, many Rafi fans consider him as good as, or even better than, the sisters when it came to classical songs.
To me, given their approach to singing, Kishore was the more natural of the two, more spontaneous/creative. Kishore had the flair that a genuine artist has, while Rafi’s art seems more “technical” or cultivated.
I`m sorry for being impulsive with my reply(ref 1311),though I appeared or infact I did misread, yet I`m not sorry for mis-reading as I could n`t read further for I got stuck with 2%,as for me(lets forget for a moment in how many raaga Rafi saab could sing),why condemning Rafi saab for those song why not the some below standard composition of those era,or MDs ,I read in a interview in which kishore da had shown out brust with the below standard film directors that they had no idea, no script of the scene and would asked Kishore da to do some comedy,do anything to make the scene funny,and he said this is also one of the reason his acting career fell,,,I say kishore the original not because of Raaga and all that as ,as far as raaga is concerned no one is born with sargam in mouth everyone learn from someone and dapt from guru,,so according to fact of schools no one can be orginal,,orginal is only one who can melt in voice,,,,careless carefree, yet doing justice to the song,,see the originality of Kis da,,he said openly in 80s that music these days are below standard hence he would quit,,,well,and as its Rafi saab,, Rafi is a person who would have surely stop singing if he would not be able to give his 100% to any song,do Rafi needed riyaaz that he used to do for even rock n roll song,even the day day of his death he is found rehearshling the song(aas paas),this the only reason that Rafi saab had requested or even re recorded many of his song inspite of the fact that according to the music directors songs were more than their expectation…plz don`t concider me fanatic as I don`t claim every Rafi song is greatest song as art has nothing universal in it, it completly depends on individual taste and more than that individual`s passion for the music and above all, everything depends on a person`s understanding of music,,,,,,,,,,,I `m only saying about effort,,,that Rafi used to give to its fullest,,,to such a extreme that surpasses level of human understanding that even Rafi saab could n`t even understand how he managed to sing so adorably,hence, he never took credit of any of his song rather dedicated it to God,,and refrence is seen in each and every Rafi and Rafi associates interview where rafi is seen admiting its God`s blessing not me,,the extremeness is that he didn`t even let his family member take credit of his success as he lived in a flat in multifloored aptt and never let his family member to live in Fame world,How egoless person Rafi saab was,thats why I feel sorry as I become impulsive with my reply being a Rafi fan,I`m sorry…
Arghya!
first of all milions of thanx for ur kind words,,,till now every boy who met me asked me of frndshp,,,,its the first person(u) who adressed himself as my younger brother,,I`m really impressed,more than this I`m feeling honoured and I owe u for this concideration,,no matter who is elder in age between us,,yet this sister of urs feel loved to have younger brother like u…thank you,very much…
Mr.Bose:
I haven’t listened to your latest links. But I think I know the Rafi-Lata duet you have linked. I will come to that one later but for now I think I am not really getting what you really want to prove (if that is the right term). Let me list down your observations (as I got it).
1. Rafi was not very good/comfortable singing the high notes the Talat way but Kishore was.
2. Rafi was good at steep climbing of notes but was not as decisive or as smooth as Kishore when negotiating swiches involving lesser number of notes. The decisiveness and smoothness is judged primarily from the ‘taans’ and ‘mukhris’ done during the note swich and Kishore was better at this than Rafi was.
3. Rafi was not in the Lata or Asha class when it comes to tough classical songs.
Now to my rejoinders.
1. Partially agree, if you are speaking about the pre-’60s Kishore. When he was young, Kishore’s voice was pretty crisp and not very heavy or deep. He did sound like Talat in some songs too and his technique when negotiating the high notes was similar to Talat’s. Okay, but what conclusion do we reach from these ‘facts’? Nothing definite. To me it’s like this- Rafi sang high notes the Rafi way and Talat did it (when he had to) the Talat way. Personally I prefer the full voiced, power-packed Rafi way and I believe many (if not most) of the listeners also prefer it. If Kishore could do it the Talat way, what is the big deal? Does that make him ‘better’ in the higher notes than Rafi? Then again, Rafi could go to the high notes softly too, there are several examples.
2. Agree with the first part only (that Rafi could cover wider range of notes in his switch). Kishore is NOT smoother or more decisive in his switch of registers involving smaller sweeps. Rafi was second to none in this department and it was actually one of his strengths. This has been highlighted by many experts (A.R.Rehman being the latest). Even if we consider the ‘taans’ and ‘mukris’ as the yardstick (which I don’t believe is the case), then also Rafi scores over most of the HFM singers (Lata and Manna Dey could be exemptions). To me, Rafi did it just right with the twists. He didn’t overdo it nor did he shy away from it when it was needed. To tell you frankly, for every ‘well-negotiated’ switch of notes by Kishore I can give you at least 3 from Rafi. This is taking nothing away from Kishore but this is not an area where he can really compete with Rafi.
3. Agree with it. Rafi was not trained as rigorously or extensively in HCM as the sisters were. But then the fact that he at least held his own in all those hard-core classical songs speaks volumes about his greatness.
Hi Smitha,
I was somehow expecting that reply regarding “Parda hai parda hai”, but my statement is to be taken in context. I was not talking about Rafi’s rendition at all. I was pointing out what Kishore did and what Rafi did not. I didn’t mention anything about the sur or Ny other aspects where Rafi was lacking.
Also, I hope you would take my comments in the right context. I reiterated many times that when I talk of a “weakness”, I don’t mean that the singer is “bad” in that area. I have stressed many times that it’s more like that particular aspect is not as good as another aspect of his singing or that another singer is a little better at that aspect. I especially mentioned this in my post to Manish.
So, when I said about Rafi’s discomfort with switching notes while climbing up or down, I did not mean to say he couldn’t do it at all. It’s just that it’s not as good as the rest of his singing and it’s something with which Kishore seemed more at ease with than Rafi.
Here is another Kishore song that was sung by him in 1985, when he was long past his peak but it does give you an idea as to how well he could sing taans and alaaps (something he supposedly couldn’t, according to experts). Kishore starts off at about 5:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tciligWD6_I
And I am not talking about complex or crisp taankari here otherwise both fail to meet the elite standards of Lata and Asha.
To get an idea of how high the standards are, listen to these two songs by Lata:
1) A duet by Manna Dey and Lata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seRjUhwvioE
Listen to the lovely rendition of Lata (starts around 4:50) in raga Brindavani Sarang. It’s a first rate rendition by any cannon, even pure classical.
2) A duet by Rafi and Lata again set to raga Brindavani Sarang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suZPPgnsKhc&NR=1
The last 40 seconds gives you an idea of how superb Lata is when it comes to classical singing, and why I consider her peerless in this area. As talented as Rafi is, he was unable to keep up with Lata.
Likewise, regarding Talat, in my post 1356, I clearly said:
“Once again regarding the high-pitched singing of Talat as compared to Rafi’s, I am not claiming that Talat could go as high as Rafi could or that one style is better than the other. So, there is no question of claiming my opinion as a fact. Because, to each his own.
What I am saying is that Rafi was clearly not very comfortable when he had to sing high-pitched in Talat’s style.”
Nobody could match Talat in that particular style but Kishore was definitely more comfortable than Rafi. Kishore’s voice was more true-toned and it retained more of it’s clarity and ‘outline’ as compared to Rafi’s in this particular style of singing.
Here are a few lovely songs of Kishore in Saigal and Talat style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DnX-T9BQZ4&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNs-2Xe76Vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLL_MbcHBFM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARm99JOjbXU
A lovely Kishore and Lata duet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUCs90gJGbA
Rafi and Kishore- both were absolutely stunning singers,,, I give Rafi some extra marks as “a singer” perspective and Kishore as “a playback singer” perspective,, Voice adjustment, enactment of a song, emoting the right note- were all signatures of Kishore and touching all spectrums of singing with equal ease was the greatness of Rafisaab,, Not that Kishore did not sing all types of songs or Rafi could not enact a song, only that each one had his “core competency”,,, No matter whatsoever discusson we undertake, the conclusion would remain the same,,, Fanatcs claiming Kishore “could have” sung “Madhuban men Radhika” or Rafi “could have”
emoted “Chhukar mere man ko” is nothing but creatng “hype” for their own favourte singer,,,,,,
As far as, “voice quality”( now, heck of a subjectve thing) is concerned- the entire Kishore-Rafi fans are divded on this basis only- I mean the “voice which appeals more”,,, No matter whatever nitty grtties we speak, ultmately I became a Kishore fan or say Smitha becoming a Rafi fan is nothng but “the partcular type of voice which we like”,,,
Take example of a cup of hot coffeee( now, fasten your seat belts, it is time for high “subjectivity”..lol..):
Some like a strong coffee with moderate or low milk with little sugar.
Some like a coffee with high milk and high sugar with not so “strength”
We should respect the taste of each one of these two types of coffees irrespective of the fact which one I would prefer to have,,
I am sure all understand which type of coffee is Kishore’s voice and which is Rafi’s!!
Smitha…
Where do you think Kishore was actually “good at”??
I mean, considering this to be a KK site, just to be in the context…
Mr.Bose:
Here is Rafi ascending and descending with murkhis, taans et al:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeAG9EBR5A8
Watch out for 2.16, 2.30 for example.
There are scores of them where Rafi switches notes with all these twists. Here is one where he does it subtly and beautifully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jmC8oNdhFM
Here is a hge climb without catching anything on the way, that is beyond the capability of Kishore (or may be anyone else):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnao-8mAv0M.
By the way, no one can convince me that Kishore did a better job (in any part of that song) in ‘parda hai parda hai’. Rafi simply was untouchable in it. How wonderfully he finishes up with that ‘nahi hain’ with all those twists (whether mukhri or khataks, I don’t know).
Mr.Bose:
Rafi could hit high notes with both chest and head voices, though he preferred going into those territories at full chest voice. He could also vary the amplitude at these notes, the amplitude wasn’t proportional to the pitch.
Here is an example of uniform amplitude in the entire song, even at higher notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1sAbwYtWRg
Here he sings at varied amplitudes at higher points. Talat like (head voice)at 1.26 and 3.38:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i85EpitOIkM.
Here is Kishore in fine form. He also goes louder at higher notes and for me it is a better form of singing, especially in the play back contex:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnHAzStLZ5M.
So what is my conclusion? Male voices generally get louder at higher notes. Talat’s didn’t because he always sang in soft head voice. To go high without increased volume is not necessarily a better form of singing and to point out Rafi as the only culprit is a wrong way of looking at it.
Smitha,
Once again regarding the high-pitched singing of Talat as compared to Rafi’s, I am not claiming that Talat could go as high as Rafi could or that one style is better than the other. So, there is no question of claiming my opinion as a fact. Because, to each his own.
What I am saying is that Rafi was clearly not very comfortable when he had to sing high-pitched in Talat’s style.
Here is another of my Talat favourite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfb_I2JD9Gs&feature=PlayList&p=C600A00AC282B641&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=33&fmt=18
I love how he maintains a uniform volume and tone as he traverses across the range of the song.
Another couple of superb Talat solos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjEk9YVJkM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_3OxcTXZiw&feature=PlayList&p=66EE04EC6DCF2C81&index=0&playnext=1
Smitha,
Thanks for listening to that song. No, it’s not the best example of Kishore switching notes rapidly but I was just listening to it. However, we need to first define what we are talking about.
From what I can gather, you are talking about the number of notes they can switch, i.e., the difference between the note at the start of the switch and the note at the end of the switch. That is, how high they can climb up – whether it is a few notes or whether it is a large number of notes.
However, what I am talking about is slightly different. I am looking at two things here, firstly how smoothly and decisively they climb AND whether they can pull off any murkhis (a quick frill of the swaras) during the climb. That was what I meant by touching other notes. I meant that it was something other than a straight climb. I am not as concerned about HOW high they go while they climb up. To me, as far as I have heard both, Kishore is much more at ease doing this than Rafi. Granted, Rafi, owing to his capability to go to a higher scale than Kishore, can possibly climb higher than Kishore, but he usually treats it like a linear climb. He rarely executes murkhis or taans or any such quick twist of the swaras. Rafi can sometimes do what we call khatakas – or a small twist on the same swara, but not across swaras during a climb up or down.
These songs illustrate what I mean:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THSFi7vskcI
Listen to the difference between the two when they finish the second half of the mukhda with “Main tera tu meri jaane saara hindustaaaaan”. Kishore is a lot more effortless than Rafi is.
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOum-fUcDiU
Once again listen to how Kishore produces a quick frill of the swaras when he sings ” … meraaaaa …” in “… Akbar mera naam nahin hai”, while Rafi treats it like a straight climb.
Here is another beautiful twist that Kishore brings off and something I found that nobody could duplicate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en_uO1DhgeU
Listen to how Kishore finishes off every time when he sings ” vaadaa tera vaadaa”. He sings the whole song pretty much straight, but he puts forth his genius when he sings that part.
Can you elaborate what you mean by saying “he is well behind Rafi when the switch involves a wide sweep of notes” ? Do you mean to say that Rafi can cross a lot more number of notes during the switch ? If so, I agree because Rafi’s “absolute” reach is higher than Kishore’s and so he can definitely go higher. However, the results are not always pleasant. Maybe we are going into subjective aspects here but, for example, I was not very convinced of Rafi’s high-pitched parts of “Mohabbat zinda rehti hai” from “Chengiz Khan”. I thought it was outside his comfort zone.
However, I agree with Manish that a lot of the fault lies with the MDs who pushed Rafi beyond the edge of his comfort zone.
Regarding the Talat song, I didn’t mention it to show how high he was going. Rather, to show how he went high without increasing the loudness.
For example, in the song “Suhaani raat dal chuki”, when Rafi sings “Nazare eeeeek …” in the antara, he goes pretty high as far as the pitch is concerned, but he’s also increasing his “volume”. To me, he was not comfortable when he had to increase the pitch without increasing the volume. That is when he had to use only his “head-voice” for the high pitches. Any Rafi’s high-pitched song that you take, his rise in pitch is always accompanied by a rise in volume. Even in the title song of “Pathar ke sanam”, he goes high quickly when he sings “Pathar” but it is accompanied by an increase in volume. Kishore could sing better in the Talat style than Rafi.
Regarding low-scale singing, yes, it was not the strong point for both, but just like Rafi could go higher than Kishore more easily, Kishore could likewise go lower. And yes, I agree with you when you say that both were made to sing “loud” in the ’70’s but it must be said that Kishore’s voice sounded a lot fresher for most of the ’70’s than Rafi’s did.
Mr.Bose:
It seems we will never be able to be on the same plane with our interpretation of objective and subjective things and we will reach no where if we go on discussing these things. So let us leave that aside and have some ‘musical’ discussion.
I have seen all your links. Honestly, is the Kishore song that you have linked the best example of effortless switch of registers? Okay, the switch was smooth but it wasn’t too complicated either. In my book it wouldn’t compete with Rafi’s effort in ‘na jaa…’ or ‘pathar ke sanam..’. I would even go on to say that Kishore himself managed a tougher task in his later songs like ‘mere naseeb mein hai dost…’ or ‘pal pal dil ke paas’. He didn’t have to venture into too high or too low notes in these latter songs, but the note switches in these songs were quite rapid and decisive. To me, Kishore doesn’t hold an advantage over Rafi when it comes to quick change of notes within a small/medium range and he is well behind Rafi when the switch involves a wide sweep of notes. By the way, the Carnatic classical music teaches its wards not to catch the intermediary notes when switching, is it different in Hindustani classicals?
Regarding low-scale singing of Kishore and Rafi, I would say the low notes weren’t the most comfortable zone for either of them especially towards the later stages of their career. At the earlier stages, Kishore could go lower but Rafi also did have a decent low range. As we reach the ’70s, both these singers sounded their best in the mid-upper notes. I would blame the MDs who wanted ‘power singing’ all the time for destroying the ‘lows’ of both the singers.
The Talat song was very good. What great voice quality he had. But was he really going to the ‘Rafi zone’ of high pitch singing? I think the highest he hit is around top ‘sa’ (c4). When you criticise Rafi for not doing it the Talat way of high pitch singing, aren’t you just stating an opinion (and not a fact)? There are many who think that the full throated way is the better and the more difficult way of reaching those higher notes. I for one would love to listen to a male voice that can go into those top ‘pa’s and ‘dha’s at full, uninhibited voice and mind you Rafi could go into these territories with more refrain too.
Mr.Manish:
I have listened (again) to the songs you have given links to. Agree with your observations. Let me add, if you don’t mind, some thing more. ‘Meri zindagi mein..’ is the song which depicts unrequited love the best in HFM. That sarcastic little laugh at ‘to kuch aur baat hoti….’ is a class act.
The ‘toofan’ song is good; though not too popular. I think Rafi sounds a bit ‘Bong’ for Ashok Kumar in this. Is it just me? But is this a low-scaled song? I believe Rafi has hit much lower notes in songs like ‘aaj is darja…’ (in its middle part), ‘toothe hue khabon….’, etc. Let me try to provide links to some of songs in which Rafi goes low, later.
Mr. Bose is correct on the ‘huskiness’ part of Rafi’s voice. But lack of definition? I am not sure. I would like to see it like this- Rafi’s multi-layered voice displayed differing textures at differing scales while Kishore’s or Mukesh’s or Manna Dey’s ‘straight’ or tru-toned voice didn’t undergo so much alteration. Rafi’s voice becomes deeper and sometimes huskier at lower notes, but to me (and many others) this factor actually enhances the appeal of that voice. MDs like Madan Mohan made very good use of this characteristic of Rafi’s voice.
Speaking of voices, Rafi’s voice is a ‘harmonised’ one. When he sings, it is not just the ‘direct’ sound waves that hit your ears, rather the direct punch is accompanied by the sweeter harmonic sound waves. This is what gives his voice that thick and layered feel. K.J.Yesu Das’ voice also has this property.
surajitda,,
I would just like to add one sentence to your observation of Kishore and Rafi vis-a-vis mass and class factor.
One Rafi fan just a couple of days back talked to me and showed his aghastness to the media, as how it “hypes” Kishore always and neglects Rafi. I told him, it is the Kishore fans who should be actually disgusted with the media for “stereotyping” him with R D Burman!!! lol.,..
This is also giving rise to a wrong enviornment, as now I have seen aplenty Rafi fans trying to “desparately prove” that RD Burman’s best was with Rafi( I think to divert media attention) which is utterly non-required,, If we have Roshan, SJ, OPN, Naushad, SDB, Ravi, LP etc. to talk of why to be so particular about RDB??
“I am really sorry that you had to make such a post.”
> Nothing to be sorry about. I enjoyed discussing every word of it and reviewing some of my favorite songs. This is one of my favorite topics of discusions (politics and sports bore me but music is something else :)). You actually made some interesting points, described things in a way I had not thought before (“thick, layered voice), etc.
“Believe me, my post was not an emotional one or one out to tarnish Rafi.”
> I know that! Sorry if I some how conveyed that it was. Always a pleasure!