An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Arghya:
I don’t want the Rafi topic to invade your lovely article so I’m going to post a response here. I agree that Rafi & Salil had an “artistic difference” (precisely how I’d word it) in 1961 but it was insignificant since they continued to work together and create great songs many years after Maya. My favorite is “Tumhein Dil Se Chaha” from “Chand aur Suraj” (1965). Then there’s an interesting composition from Salil in the song “Dush-man-on!” from Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose (1966). Salil really takes advantage of Rafi’s high pitch AND directs Rafi to sing in a thick, heavy voice which I like. The composition itself is very colorful, even if the Western derivation is clear. They also collaborated in “Dil Tadap Pe Tadpaaye” from “Poonam Ki Raat” (1965). I bet there are other movies that I am not aware of.
My point is that if Salil did not opt for Rafi in the late 60s, it was because of his subjective liking or great chemistry with other singers. Not because he and Rafi were not willing to work together. I can respect Salil’s taste. “Choti Si Baat” had a freshness in the heavenly vocals of Yesudas because Salil tried a new, great voice for Hindi films. I am very grateful to both Salil & Rafi for producing wonderful numbers. Their fraction of songs that I really enjoy is high.
OK, I need some help with one word of the lyrics for “Do Akalmand Huye Filkurmand”. The word in question comes at 4:11.
Rafi towards the end: “Hai maare gaaye Panditon ki baat maan ke, *bolo ji* ne paas liya kech taan ke.” I had trouble clearly hearing the word in asterisk. Admittedly, mp3 is not the best audio source. There is not a high enough resolution in the audio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY1ClTZAAsM
Both singers showed robust, fluid voices and excellent control.
Kishore’s line: “Arre Galle Ko Dabaaye Hui Mote Peit Mein, Moka Pa Ke Bechke Ka Tigna Rate Mein”. His barritone voice excels in this song as it highlights his words for great clarity. He still retains the pleasant flavor of his voice. Kishore’s line has a lot of hard consonants (K) that help in sounding even more clear.
Rafi maintains PERFECT clarity and flavor, sweet texture when singing lines even faster in “Jaan Pehchan Ho”. So maybe it was just happenstance (most likely) or a different kind of rendition. Rafi was extremely good & very accomplished for fast & energetic songs. Sometimes I hate to nitpick too much because then it’s like penalizing someone for being human.
Another peculiarity is that the extended version of this song is just a duet with Rafi & Kishore whereas the film version is a triet with Rafi, Kishore, and Mahendra Kapoor. Rafi’s line that I pointed to above is actually replaced by a single line from MK: “Hai maare gaaye Paapiyon ki baat maan ke, apno hech taan ke”. Why they did this and also change the lyrics are two things that I am curious about.
Surajit,
First of all, thank you for sharing all these wonderful gems of Kishore. Regardless of the outcome of the discussions, I try to discover gems hidden from me or pick up new perspectives.
To answer your question, yes, that part of “Jis path par dekhe kitne” does go a little lower than “Akelaaaa”.
Thank you!
“Clarity is good enough in the Rafi song but the tonal quality suffers a bit. When I talk about definition, it is more about the tonal quality.”
I know what you are talking about in “Tujhe kya sunaon main dilruba”). He tips that “n” in “sunaon” so softly and subtly. I cannot tell if this is because he is struggling or did it by choice. He does the same exact thing in “Jaanu Meri Jaan” for “hindustaaa n” and I’d bet my thumb that Rafi could sing the latter song in his sleep.
While discussing classical ability or range we have zoomed in too much (strictly IMO) and ignored the big picture. You won’t hear me knocking much on Kishore for high pitch. He was more than competent. His range did not limit him in singing the wide variety of songs handed to him and a number of excellent compositions in high pitch. The same goes for Rafi at low scale.
Having said this, I agree with you that Kishore’s barritone gave him an advantage and he was very good at singing in low scale. However, even if you consider this as an advantage over Rafi, I don’t see it as a *significantly weighty* advantage. Whereas, for example, Rafi’s *accomplishments* in devotional songs vs Kishore (and we’ll elaborate on that later) is a big, weighty matter for me.
On the other hand, in the context of a handful songs like “Baat Chalat”, I am less forgiving of Rafi because his lack of rigorous training did *actually* limit him in doing justice to that song. However, in the conext of the big picture, I don’t give classical training nearly as much emphasis as you do because for 98% of the songs, any limitation in classical training did not even surface for Rafi’s songs. When Rafi and Lata sing “Zindagi Hai Kya” (Jawab 1970), classical training doesn’t surface but it is more about their robust, spontaneous, lively voices (both of them btw – who ever said Lata sang only like a Puritan was lying :)).
As Sudip pointed out earlier, even Himesh Reshamiya can go to high pitch. Range is merely a qualification that both Rafi & Kishore excelled in. This or classical training is not what separates Rafi & Kishore. I believe that both Rafi & Kishore were blessed with ridiculously great voice control. They were both, for the most part, unlimited by the technicalities of singing. So if you want to say that Kishore was technically just as good as Rafi, I can live with that.
“Coming back to the song from Maya”
Thank you for that final note! I know I dragged you on about that song. 🙂
here are the links of three interviews/feature. hope hfm lovers will like them.
http://www.screenindia.com/old/fullstory.php?content_id=9648
http://www.screenindia.com/old/archive/archive_fullstory.php?content_id=11571
http://www.screenindia.com/old/fullstory.php?content_id=17362
Mr.Bose (ref post# 1434):
My question is why the fans of other singers compare Rafi to the best in each field? Why can’t someone compare ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’ with ‘mere naina’ or ‘rang aur noor’ with ‘humein tumse pyar’ or ‘yeh ishq ishq’ with ‘wada tera wada’ or ‘tere mere sapne’ with ‘tere mere milan’ or ‘din dal jaaye’ with ‘yeh laal rang’?
Mr.Bose:
I didn’t say the ‘best’ voice has to be decided on the basis of votes cast by the famous musical personalities. I am reproducing what I had commented:
“You ask any good (not necessarily famous) musician about voices and I will be surprised if they would reply with ‘to each his own’ answer”.
I agree with you that the famous musical personalities are all human beings with their own personal preferences and tastes. But then, their views do count because of several reasons. One reason could be the fact that these people (a MD for instance) get the chance to listen to the singers practising and singing without a microphone. Another reason could be that a MD would know the exact vocal range of a singer.
What I think about the whole issue is that a competent music personality’s opinion subjected to our scrutiny can tell part of the story.
Since you have touched upon the topic I would like to mention a few things.
Rajesh Roshan, who gave Kishore a lot of hit songs considers Rafi ‘the best’ (as reported in The Hindu daily).
Illyaraja, the well-known MD considers Rafi the greatest Indian film singer. Illyaraja never got a chance to work with Rafi.
A.R.Rehman, a worthy successor of Illyaraja defines ‘excellence’ as ‘some thing like Rafi’.
K.J.Yesu Das, whose credentials as a singer (play back and classical) cannot be questioned, thinks Rafi is in a class all of his own.
Mr.Manish:
Kishore is more than capable in high notes. Actually it is some of the hard core fans who have created this myth of ‘the tenor Rafi’ Vs ‘the baritone Kishore’. Kishore could competently go up to top ri/ga right upto his final years. It is his low range that suffered once he crossed 40-41. Let me try and provide some links when I reach home. I can give you some examples from the top of my head.
Gaatha rahe mera dil
Mera jeevan kora kagaz
Dil aisa kisine mera thoda
Ref: Rakbha’s post# 1437.
Fully agree with every word of it.
“For me, Rafi and kishore compliment each other”. Very true. This fact has been highlighted by Mr.Bose also. There is a tendency among the hard core fans of both these singers to show that these two are at the opposite ends of the singing spectrum. To me they are more similar than they are different. I don’t think Mr.Bose, Mr. Arghya and others would disagree with me if I say that Kishore did learn a few things from Rafi in singing as well as play back singing.
Mr.Bose:
You wrote:
But I haven’t heard any vocal pyrotechnics from Rafi when it came to taans and other “twists and turns” that really put him beyond Kishore and in the elite category of Lata/Asha (or even Manna Dey.
My reply:
There is a huge gap between Kishore and the sisters when it comes to the ‘twists and turns’. A ‘wadaa’ here or a ‘mera’ there cannot bridge it. Actually the gap is so huge that no one speaks about it. Rafi, though lesser trained than the sisters and Manna Dey could and did compete with these singers (I wouldn’t say equalled them) in CERTAIN ASPECTS of these ‘taans’, ‘mukhris’ et al. It is a fact and it has been acknowledged by none other than Manna Dey himself. Have you listened to Rafi’s improvisation with the ‘mehli udhas..’ part in live concerts? He doesn’t attempt any ‘ustad’ish ‘taans’ there but what he does is beyond the capability of many an ‘ustad’. You don’t have to put Rafi in the elite class of Lata, Asha and Manna Dey but he is not in the ‘non-elite’ class of Kishore either when we speak about the twists and turns. I modify and repeat my promise- ‘for every twists and turns executed by Kishore, I will show you 3 by Rafi with comparable technical expertise’.
P.S: It is not my intention to bad mouth Kishore in any way. As an admirer of HFM and Kishore I want to make this point clear.
Now to low-pitched singing. You know as well as I do that a tru toned voice doesn’t undergo much change in texture thru the singers vocal range. A multi-layered voice (or voice with lot of harmonics) does exhibit different textures at different pitches. This is a universal fact and Kishore and Rafi are no exceptions. When a tru toned voice undergoes a change in texture, it has to be for the worse (because it shows that the singers vocal range has been challenged). When a multi layered voice undergoes change in texture, it is not always for the worse. Rafi’s voice, for example becomes deeper and huskier at about mid-sa/ri (c3/d3) but he still can go down another 3-4 notes. Similarly his voice becomes fuller (and sometimes lighter) at about top-ri/ga (d4/e4); but he can still go up about 6-7 notes further. One can’t simply generalise that all these notes covered by Rafi in a voice texture different from his mid-range voice texture are relatively worse-sung.
When Kishore hits the low ‘ni’ in ‘Koi hota…’, the voice squeaks and has a feel of nearing its breaking point but when Rafi hits the similar note in ‘boondhe nahin..’ the effect is different.
Let me reiterate this. I am not claiming that Rafi is better than Kishore at low pitched singing. My point is that Kishore doesn’t hold an edge over Rafi (especially when we speak about the latter half of the two singers’ career) in low pitched singing.
Smitha,
Thanks so much for sharing those songs with me! This is the first time I’ve heard the song from “Lo Ek Kali Muskai” and what a gem of a song! “Kaise Jeet Lete Hain” is one of my favorite songs of the great Rafi as he renders it in his sweet, loving voice and his inimitable expression. It’s funny I was just listening to “Dil Tadape Tadpaye”! Thanks for sharing “Boondein Nahin Sitare” as its been a long time since I’ve heard that.
The big picture IMO is that Rafi was proficient and capable of singing lots of great songs that did require certain parts to be at a low scale. This is also why I don’t knock too much on Kishore with regards to high pitch. I may be less forgiving on that side because some songs like “Aji Hamse Bachkar Kahan Ab Jayega” or “Insaaf Ka Mandir Hai Yeh” are my absolute favorites and require the very high pitch. With Rafi, he had the range in low scale to not be limited in doing full justice to great songs like “Toote Huye Khwabon Mein” or “Lo Ek Kali Muskai”. Thanks again for pointing out the songs!
In continuation to my last post to Vipul I would like to make some points clarified:
1. They were intended to Kishore’s “capability to carry patriotic song” and has nothing to do with Rafi.. I never ever say Kishore “could have bettered Kar chale hum fida” mind you! It is only to the response from certain members as if Kishore “is not capable enough to pull off a patriotic song”..
I made this point very clear as from my past experience I am verys sure, whenver something good is said about Kishore, Rafi fans by defualt take that as “an insult to Rafi”!!!! Even I don’t know the logic behind that!!
Here is one of my favorite comedy songs where the great Rafi embellishes this brilliant SD Burman composition with his enthusiasm and “x factor”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=930_IrucGuA
I liked both Rafi & Kishore equally in Chor Chale Pyari Duniyako. Versatility was Rafi Sahab’s middle name and for comedy he was excellent and very accomplished. Having said that, I agree that Kishore was brilliant for comedy in his own unique way and only he could have pulled off that brilliant number from Half Ticket.
Here’s my favorite 70s comedy song. Dharmendra excelled in comedy and that’s why he and Kishore matched seamlessly in this song. All the compositions in this movie from Pancham were desert island material IMO. The singing, the acting, the supporting actors, the composition all come together wonderfully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrACOlV_bJk
Vipul I am mentioning some of my favourite patriotic songs,, It is different that the were all pre 70s songs( I hardly remember any good patriotic sogs after 1969,though),, Kindly tell me the “range” and “prolonged high pitch sustainance” you are talking of there:
1. Ae mere pyare watan
2. Kar chale hum fida
3. Ae watan ae watan humko teri kasam
4. Yeh desh hai veer jawanon ka
5. Izzat watan ki huse hai
Please also mention the octaves covered in those songs and show us Kishore in his lifetime, could never touch that range..
They were my faviurite patriotic songs(and many people’s)..Now coming particularly to “high pitch sustainance” in patriotic songs… Let us see which were the songs which had “particular high notes”:
1. Apni azadi ko hum hargiz meeta sakte nahi( In the antara,towards the end,when Rafi goes up-“sara kata sakte hai lekin…”)- On that similar line, listen to the start of “Bin paisa har khel hai jhootha” by Kishore,,, He hits the same high notes and sustains it much longer with “jhothaa..aaa…aaa..” with 2 harqats in between..
2. Mere desh ki dharti and Hai preet jaha ki reet sada- The range of both these songs were Kishore’s normal range,, In “humlog hai aese deewane”(a semi-patriotic song by Kishore), when he sang “sachhai ki khatir duniya mein Gandhi ne goli khayi hai” he exactly touches the notes which MK touches “jeete na koi mulk to kya humne to dilon ko jeeta hai”… The same notes and same range,, And remember “humlog hai aese deewane” were composed by Shankar Jaikishen known for their passion towards high pitch singing and the year was 1970(perhpas the last time we saw patriotism on Indian movie scereen with Prem Pujari, Purab aur Paschim and Umang), Kishore’s rising to fame.. SJ immediately switched to give Kishore patriotic assignments,,
1971-1975, neither there was any patriotic movie nor patriotic songs,, “Aakraman” had 2 patriotic songs, both are very mediocre, and there is nothing much to talk(yes, Dekho veer jawano never feauture in my favourites).. As for the Karma song , they were again LP compositions picturized on Dillip Kumar and LP might have tried to bring back some Rafi nostalgia on Dillip by giving that song to Mohd . Aziz( a voice which I never liked),, Thatz all of patriotism on screen except a few here and there..
I had given Prabhanjan a Bengali patriotic song of Rabindranath Tagore- “Bidhir bandhan” which Kishore sang in a Satyajit Ray movie “bare voiced”!! Yes, you read it right- a bare voiced, Raag Khambaj based Patriotic song- which Prabahnjanji also shared his feedback I think in this topic only.. If you have the “mental intention” and “willingness” I can hand over that to you, listen to the “throw of voice” and “modulation”, which according to you Kishore did not have to carry a patriotic song..
Warm Regards.
For me, Rafi and kishore compliment each other.
I would be definitely be bored if i continue to listen only rafi and only kishore. I really doesn’t any quality to do any comparison but i noticed few things
– some of the rafi’s songs probably would have sounded better in kishore’s voice
– some of the kishore’s songs probably would have sounded better in rafi’s voice
– In some (not all)of the songs( During 79-80 period) rafi voice sounded not at this best
In some (not all)of the songs( During 84-86 period) kishore voice sounded not at this best
i am using ‘sounded” word because that’s way i can compare only
Thanks
Classical songs by Rafi…
I agree that Manna da could be more suitable for classical filmi songs.. but Rafi has done few really good ones….
1> Madhuban main
2> kuhu kuhu with Lata
3> Ankhiyan sang ankhiya
4> Duniya na bhaye (semi classical)
and I agree that Lata and Manna could be better than Rafi but I think Rafi was better than Asha in classical category… I could be wrong but anyway it is a personal opinion…
Smitha,
regarding post 1422,
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you trying to say that we can determine whose voice is the “best” by figuring out how many votes a singer gets from other famous musicians ?
Why should we only count famous musicians ? Because they cannot have favourites ? Because they are not biased ?
This is something that I repeatedly pointed out. Any person, even a famous musician, is a human being with his own biases and tastes. Why should his opinion be counted over a layman’s ?
In such a case, we should probably count all the votes from Rafi fans and compare them with all the votes from Kishore fans and see who scores higher. That would tell us whose voice is the best.
Like I said, I don’t count subjective criteria precisely because there is no way we can arrive at a consensus on such criteria as “sweetness” or “soothing” or “heart-touching” etc.
Smitha,
regarding 1419, those comparisions are made only because most Rafi fans claim him to be the best in every facet of singing.
If you claim that “O Duniya ke rakhwale” is the best filmy classical song, and “Mere mehboob tujhe” is the best filmy ghazal, and “Aaja re aa zara” is the best romantic song etc. (as many Rafi fans do), you are bound to invite comparisions, because these claims are outright exaggerated. You cannot then go ahead and say that Rafi is the greatest because he is inviting comparisions with the best exponents of each form of singing. Because, some of the fans of Rafi started it in the first place by making such claims.
Hi Smitha,
regarding post 1418,
Firstly, maybe it’s that my expectations are too high when it comes to classical songs. But I haven’t heard any vocal pyrotechnics from Rafi when it came to taans and other “twists and turns” that really put him beyond Kishore and in the elite category of Lata/Asha (or even Manna Dey). I have seen Rafi attempt really fast taans and come up short. I guess one could give him points for trying, but I cannot just ignore his limitations even after being exposed to them. Oh, and sure, you could come up with more songs of Rafi that have a classical bent, but I am more concerned about the level of technical expertise within the songs, rather than the number of songs.
Regarding low-pitched singing, I guess it’s best if we agree to disagree. A change in voice texture within a given range is not something that I can accept (unless it’s by design). Otherwise, there is no way we can determine a singer’s range. Ok, let’s approach this from another angle. Let’s talk about high-pitched singing regarding the limits of a voice. When a singer goes beyond his limits on the higher scale, how do we determine if he’s “yelling” ? Like you said, Mahendra Kapoor had a tendency to do that. The change in texture is what makes it possible to distinguish when the singer has gone from singing to “yelling”. Otherwise, there is no way to tell. Now, apply the same to low-pitched singing. Obviously, there cannot be “yelling” in low-pitched singing. So, the only other way to determine the limits of the voice is through change in texture. When Kishore sang “Koi hota jisko apna” or even that part “pyar tumhe kis mod pe”, he didn’t go besur. Only his voice texture changed. But since that’s acceptable according to you, it must count.
Hi Rakbha..
1. I am not at all any authority of music nor do I make any “controversial” statement to create juicy stuff for people,, Believe it or not, one of my comment on Salil-Rafi, which was a reaction to a Rafi fans’ comments towards Anil Biswas, created a big controversy( and I request all to put a stop to that “Tasveer teri dil me”),, Very unintentional,alas! I know “a bit” of Bollywood music and I have been listening to Film music for the last 22 years-that is all qualification I have,honestly! And that is why I always avoid techical nitty gritties although not a layman on this.. I never ever went like a “headstrong” fan to prove Kishore>Rafi, only I have got certain points on the basis of which I stated- a> Rafi the greatest singer, b> Kishore the greatest playback singer c> Kishore is a great singer, might not be the greatest and d> Rafi might be overall best as a singer but might not be necessarily best in all segments! If you admit them well and good otherwise I personally do not have any problem!! And yes, I “do love” Kishore the most, and I have my own reasons to do so!
2. Anecdotes are never my personal favourites,, Go through my posts in “A darkr truth” directed to Mr. Prabhanjan around 2 months back, to understand why I started giving anecdotes,, There are certain Rafi fans who are just “allergetic” towards listening “good things” about Kishore and start giving anecdotes- sometimes without any logical background!! According to them, even if Kishore had rejected a song say in 1977 that means he could not sing the song!! Isnt it ridiculous!! If I have retaliated to that mentalityby giving “the same dose”, I am sorry!! I have already said this to Prabhanjan earlier, I say the same to you,,
3. I do not have any problem with the jury!! Especially, Mannada and Khayyyam saab would have been good enough to decide who is the best,, But to tell you, you do not know who were the jury of Filmfare awards- which is alsways projected as rubbish by Rafifans- 4 of which went to Kishore when Rafi was alive and 4 after Rafi’s death!! My intention to revolt against those anecdotes were only that,, That is why I “very confidently” told that ” I am the king of anecdotes”- again, not becuase I am any authority of music but because my close following of Film music of all decades(yes, all decades) for more than past two decades..
Warm regards,,
Aghrya and Bose, You said that Kishore could have song Patriotic songs equally well.
Well as per me most patrioitic songs need a particular type of voice quality. Singer has to sustain his voice at high pitch at some ot other time or all the time and KK had limitation on hitting higher notes and that is the reason he has not sung patriotic songs in movies.. except Dekho veer jawano…
MDs used Rafi and Mehandra Kapoor and Manna Dey for such songs. Even in current time such songs are given to Sonu, Sukhwinder, Hariharan and NOT TO Kumar Sanu.
The reason is same. Sanu cant go high scale and he is more nasal (He cant change his voice from nasal to non nasal ) and it is not suitable for such songs…
Again it is my view and you have all rights to differ…
Smitha.. post 1419…
you said it dear!…
Rafi is compared to everyone in all styles… That is versatility.
Rafi’s is more versatile than kk else we would have seen kk singing in all varieties.
Surajit, You mentenioned few Quwallis by KK.. like haal kya hai dilo ka and waada tera wada…
Do they sound like Quwallis? KK simlified them to fit his style. He never sang them in Quwaali way….
even RD went to Rafi for his famous Quwallis of Hum kisis se kum nahi. Listen to that one and parda hai parda and that is te way qualwlli shd be sang…
Again it is my opinion and ppl have rights to differ but for me kk’s voice do not fit quwalli…
Mr arghya.
There is big difference between ooutlook survey 2003 and survey 2006 .
Pls look at the people who decided the best in 2006 survey. they have established themselves in field of music.
I would rather rely on verdict from experts who knows the music.
Let me ask you what is ur qualification to decide who is better. May be i am even quailifed to ask that since I don’t have much knowlege in music except being a common listener.
and there is no need to be sarcastic being like this “This is not mohdrafi.com,,, Go there your anecdotes will be more appreciated,, ”
Looking at previous notes from you, you also have provided anecdotes to prove your facts.
Mr.Manish:
Here is an example of the change in Rafi’s voice texture at the lower notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBunDmqXP28
Watch out for 0.51,1.09 and 1.23. Mr. Bose would probably think this is relatively bad singing but to me this is a pretty good way of reaching those low notes.
Here is one more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DE0uzWZeXc
Watch out for 1.19, 1.30 and 2.50. Rafi doesn’t go too low here, but the change in voice character is obvious .
Arghyaji(post 1423)
Wah wah!! kya mooh tod jawab diya hai!! Mujhe yeh pata hi nahi tha ke Outlook mein 2003 mein aesa survey pehle hi ho chuka tha! Oh my god, 55% people saying Kishore best!
Sahi bola apne, kuchh nahi rakha yeh sab magazine surveys mein magar yeh zaroori tha jo jawab apne diya hai!! aese aur kitne trump cards chhupake rakhe ho sir apne jeb mein:)),,just kidding!
a very learned world famous person called keshab sen who wanted to defeat Sri Ramakrishna on scripture talk that “GOD DOES NOT exist” in front of audience,,Ramakrisna ji in discussion didn`ttold anything only noded and admited that Kashab is all right with all yes or no,,keshab annoyeed with it,,asked why was he,Ramakrishna deva was behaving like a fool as if he has nothing to say,,Ramkrishna deva answered
after a very long time in this site, and for the first time till I`ve joined this talk page, the discussion has got so hot,,,,Rafians r all over as its now when someone at last raised a question on Rafi saab`s charecter esp when his modesty for tea incident was understood as a INSULT that is trurely wrong way to judge a natural incident,,well, I`m not pointing towards Arghya,, he is really very much affectionate to me only because of the person he is and his true faith,such faith on one`s ideal is really highly respectable,,,but there are many person who reads these talk page with taking part in the discussion,,,,and as far as Nassir sir, is concerned,it appears from his word that he is not a bit interested in our talks as he didn`t commented again or earlier in this forum ,yet he came perhaps `coz to share with us the Rafi saab`s humility with us,,,,mind it humility never mean to condemn other,,,,,there is a incident when Sri ramakrishna of kolkata,a divine person untrained in mordern yet concider by many person including me as God himself, once met a very learned world famous person called keshab sen who wanted to defeat Sri Ramakrishna on scripture talk that “GOD DOES NOT exist” in front of audience,,Ramakrisna ji in discussion didn`ttold anything only noded and admited that Kashab is all right with all yes or no,,keshab annoyeed with it,,asked why was he,Ramakrishna deva was behaving like a fool as if he has nothing to say,,Ramkrishna deva answered
To be more precise:
Question No. 53 of the poll “Mirch Masala”
Question was:
53. Who is the greatest male playback singer of all time?
1. Manna Dey
02.00%
2. Kishore Kumar
55.00 %
3. Mohammad Rafi
26.00%
4. Mukesh
08.00%
5. Kumar Sanu
04.00%
6. Udit Narayan
05.00%
What can you say about this??
Please come out of this magazine surveys and results,, They themselves forget what survey they had conducted and what were the results !!
Mr.Bose:
Continuing with the ‘voice’ discussion, I haven’t read/ heard anywhere so far that RDB has claimed Kishore’s voice to be the sweetest one. If I understand correctly, neither AB nor CR were Kishore fans. AB’s favorite used to be Talat and CR never favoured any male singers as such. Neither of these two, according to my knowledge, never said anything like ‘Kishore has the sweetest voice’.
One famous music personality who speaks highly of Kishore’s voice is Manna Dey. But he rates Rafi’s voice also very high.
I don’t think many South Indians who are familiar with Lata’s voice at its prime would state that Chitra’s voice is sweeter. Chitra herself is an unabashed Lata fan and considers her meetings with Lata as one of the high points in her life. This is taking nothing away from the beautiful sweet voice of Chitra but Lata is in a class of her own and it is not just the ‘sureelapan’ that makes Lata’s voice stand apart from the crowd. For your information, OPN never considered Asha’s or Geeta’s voice sweeter to Lata’s and infact declared in a TV show that Lata is indeed the ultimate.
And here is that link:
http://www.outlookindia.com/archivecontents.asp?fnt=20030512
Issue of Outlook May 12, 2003- Kishore Kumar the best male playback singer,, There all the “best” of Indian Cinema are given-do read the entire article!!
So, what should i make out now?? From this Outlook business?? Please reply!! I have stopped remembering these “goody goody” things of Kishore and ignoring “bad things” about him long back!! Request fans also to come out of them!! Nothing in it, trust me!!!
Mr. Rakbha,,
Again another “anecdote teller”,, You know what “I am the king of anecdotes” if I become intentionally inclined,, But I take them junk..
I have so many surveys (Same Outlook in 2003) where they did a survey to find “who is India’s most popular” in every ffield of indian Cinema,, They rated “Mother India” as the best Cinema ever, and sorted out 10 best movies of Indian cinema of all time featuring Mother India, Pyasa, Kagaz Ke Phool, Sholay, Lagaan, Guide etc.
I that same issue, Mr. Rakbha, they judged Kishore Kumar as the “best male playback singer” winning by 65% votes and his nearest competitior Rafisahab got 28% votes,, Can you see the “popularity” difference sir??
Please let the discussion happen and stop anecdotes,, This is not mohdrafi.com,,, Go there your anecdotes will be more appreciated,,
Mr.Bose:
You wrote
If you are trying to say that Rafi can go as low as or sing as well as Kishore/Hemant/Mukesh in the lower scale and better than anybody in the upper scale, and he is good enough to match Lata/Asha/Manna in classical songs, I would say that is an exaggerated estimate of Rafi’s skills.
My reply:
First off I have not tried to say this. Secondly there is some truth in the statement. Let me explain. Rafi can compete in all these areas. He is the best decathelete we have had in Hindi film singing (I am not speaking about ‘play back’ singing).
Mukesh and Hemant (and Kishore in his younger days) could hit lower notes than Rafi. Mukesh and Hemant could also sing better at sustained low notes than Rafi. But Rafi is there in the picture, he cannot be brushed aside. When we speak about low-pitched songs in HFM, we can’t ignore Rafi songs like ‘meri awaz suno’.
Rafi is good enough to be compared with Manna Dey and the sisters when it comes to ‘filmy semi-classical songs’. The hard-core classical singing is a specialised area and Rafi was not a specialist. Rafi could and he did hold his own in his duets with these better trained singers and sometimes was aesthetically (may not be technically) better.
Rafi was the ‘baadshah’ in high pitch singing in HFM. No one is close. Manna Dey could go high but couldn’t emote as much in the high notes. Mahendra Kapoor also hit amazingly high notes but his voice became too loud and too shrill when hitting them.
There is more. Rafi is being compared to Ghantasala in classical singing. He is being compared to Mehdi Hassan & co in gazals, to Anoop Jalota & co in bhajans, Lata in vocal attributes, Asha in spontaneity and ‘naturalness’, Mukesh in melancholic songs and who knows what in others. And these comparisons are not being made by the hard core Rafians. What does it say?
Mr.Bose:
I was delivering what I promised in my post #1409- 3 song of Rafi for every one by Kishore. I know and I believe you also know that these are not the most intricate ‘taans’/’mukhris’ pulled off by Rafi. But these are good enough for a comparison with the sharabi ‘taan’. Show me a more complex ‘taan’ of Kishore and I will show you 3 by Rafi.
Now to Rafi’s low -pitched singing. Rafi bashers love to take a dig at Rafi for his alleged ‘weakness’ in low notes. But the fact is that Rafi had a decent low range through out his career. He seemed to struggle a little with low notes in the ’70s occassionally but then the MDs of the ’70s never really gave him something good in the low notes.
Yes, Rafi was near the edge of his comfort zone in ‘yahaan badla…’ and ‘toothe hue..’. But then he was at the edge of his absolute range too. His range in his early days was about low- pa (g2/g#2) to high sa (c5/c#5). Kishore’s range during his younger days would be about low ma (f2) to high ga (e4). So when Kishore sang a low dha, he was well within his comfort zone and one would expect him to sound more relaxed at this range. Naturally, Kishore did indeed strike lower notes than Rafi when we speak about 40s, 50s and even the early ’60s. This not withstanding, Kishore never really held an edge over Rafi when it comes to sustained low pitch singing. Rafi’s ‘meri awaz suno’, ‘dil tadpe…’,’zulfon ko hatha de..’ etc rival anything Kishore delivered during his early years. Rafi’s voice did undergo a change in texture at lower notes but then it is a built-in characteristic of that voice, it showed different texture at the high notes as well. The fact that Kishore’s voice displayed uniform texture in the low notes as compared to mid notes doesn’t make his low notes ‘better’. Infact this character of Rafi’s voice allowed him to communicate well with the common music enthusiasts. When Rafi went low, they could tell he sang low without checking a key board because the voice character conveyed it.
Moving forward to the ’70s, neither Rafi nor Kishore sounded their best at lower notes (generally). When Kishore sang those low notes in ‘Koi hota jisko apna..’ and ‘mere naina’, he was clearly struggling. He lost much of his lows by this time. I would think his range in the ’70s would be low-dha to high-ga. Rafi was hardly singing anything in the low notes. But he could still hit a low dha with clarity when his voice held itself in good shape (which couldn’t be taken for granted in the mid-late ’70s), like what he did in ‘boondhe nahin sitare’ and ‘duniya ke rakhwale’ he sang in his concerts.
i am not sure how much qualified is each person here to comment on giants like Rafi and Kishore.
I would rather rely on those who established themselves in name of music
Outlook magazine did survey. and these people decided who is best
Jury:
Abhijeet, Adesh Srivastava, Alisha Chinai, Anu Malik, Ehsaan, Gulzar, Hariharan, Himesh Reshammiya, Jatin, Javed Akhtar, Kailash Kher, Kavita Krishnamurthy, Khayyam, Kumar Sanu, Lalit, Loy, Mahalaxmi Iyer, Mahendra Kapoor, Manna Dey, Prasoon Joshi, Rajesh Roshan, Sadhna Sargam, Sameer, Sandesh Shandilya, Shaan, Shankar, Shantanu Moitra, Shreya Ghoshal, Sonu Nigam, Talat Aziz”
most popular singers were
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060626&fname=ABestSongs&sid=6
Along with Kishore Kumar and Mukesh, Mohammed Rafi was one of the most popular male playback singers from the ’50s to the ’70s. He was regarded as the most proficient and versatile of the three, equally at ease with a purely classical song (Man tadpat Hari darshan) as with light numbers (Chakke pe chakka, chakke pe gadi).
Here people are asked to choose between all male singers.
Mr. Vipul
Kishore decided to sing “man re tu kahe” just 10 minutes before the start of the show,, He was very spontaneous as far as stage performance was concerned and used to suddenyl decide what he was going to do,,,
The problem with you guys is you dont know how to compare,, A recorded song with rehearsals and takes and retakes gets compared to an instant stage performance, the idea of singing which might have come to the singer instantenously,,,
Can you elaborate what classical “tarining” is required to sing a patriotic song?? Please , dont make superfluous comments rather back up,, Same for Qawalli(it is a genre of singing which Kishore “did not like”),, Why he did not like that I am also not very sure,, But whenver he took the assignment with LP’s insistence(“Wada Tera Wada”, “Haal kya hai dilon ka”, “Mere pyale mein sharab daal de”, “Allah kare maula kare”, ” Kabhi beqasi ne mara” etc.), not only the songs were to the perfection but also very much appreciated also,,
I agree his voice did not suit bhajans, but the same was for Rafi in comic songs,, whenver he was pitched against Kishore even in the 50s ( “Chhod chale pyari duniya”, ” Bin paisa har khel hai jhootha”), he lacked the “X-factor” of enthusiasm,,
If someone is more concerned about bhajans and not very “serious” about comic songs, it is their own choice and I appreciate that,,
But, no one can convince me that “singing patriotic songs require classical training”!!! Can you tell me how many patriotic songs Rafi sang in the 70s??(I mean the period when Kishore came on top and became a full fledged singer),, Kishore not singing too many patriotic songs is nothing but a “socio-cultural” dynamics on Indian Cinema, patriotism was a taboo from 70s onwards,,,
Hi Vipul,
You said:
“Being a Rafi fan, I just want to point that every singer his good in his comfort zone and it applies to both Rafi and kk but comfort zone of Rafi is much wider and deeper than KK.”
I think the right point to make is that Rafi’s comfort zone is higher than Kishore’s while Kishore’s comfort zone is lower than Rafi’s. That is a lot closer to the truth.
“I *think* KK’s voice does not suite quawaalis, Ghazal, Patriotic songs, Bhajans as he lacks classical back ground.”
And I *think* otherwise. Kishore’s voice is just fine in qawwaalis like “Haal kya hai dilon ka”, “Kahin janab ko”, “Suno jana suno jana” or ghazals like “Mere deewanepan ki bhi” or “Mere dil mein aaj kya hai” or patriotic songs like “Subah ki pehli kiran tak” or bhajans like “Hame tujh bin kaun sambhale”.
And classical background is not a pre-requisite for singing any of these songs.
Smitha,
Post 1411
Rafi has sung quite a few songs in the lower scale, but he is not as good in the lower scale as he is in the higher scale. Take the first song, “Dil tadape tadapae”; every time Rafi sings “woh to” in the mukhda, he is clearly struggling. Compare his voice there with his voice when he sings “khud ko mana lun” the second time (starting at 1:44, after going high with “main”) and you can see the difference in crispness and texture. He did not go off-key or anything, but the difference in texture is distinct enough to tell you that that is a little out of his comfort zone. If you choose to overlook that change in texture and include the huskiness too as a part and parcel of going to the low scale (which Kishore’s voice does not, by the way), we can just agree to disagree.
Also, Rafi has gone lower in “Yahan badla wafa ka” and even in some parts of “Toote hue khwabon ne”. “Yahan badla wafa ka” especially shows the discomfort that Rafi has at the low scale. His usual fluidity is clearly missing. From what I know, it was Noorjehan (his co-singer in that duet) who was responsible for that. Noorjehan, in those days, carried enough clout not to compromise on her singing comfort, and did not agree to sing in a higher scale that suits Rafi. So, Rafi was made to sing in a lower scale.
Further, he has not gone lower than Kishore has. I don’t think this has to be even discussed. It’s like a Kishore fan trying to convince you of Kishore being able to go as high as Rafi can.
You seem to give a margin for ‘huskiness’ every time Rafi goes to the lower notes. I don’t, unless that huskiness is intended for that song or is by design. However, in most songs, when Rafi goes low, his voice inadvertently develops a huskiness that is not entirely intended. And I see that as an indication of being outside his comfort zone. But if you are willing to overlook the loss in texture, I can give you another example of Kishore’s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2U7yfCLSEk
Listen to how low he goes at 1:10. The rest of the song is mundane.
If you are trying to say that Rafi can go as low as or sing as well as Kishore/Hemant/Mukesh in the lower scale and better than anybody in the upper scale, and he is good enough to match Lata/Asha/Manna in classical songs, I would say that is an exaggerated estimate of Rafi’s skills.
My assertion is different. There are things that Rafi can do which Kishore can’t, and there are things that Kishore can do that Rafi can’t. But, all things considered, they are comparable to each other as singers. And, in my post the other day, I have listed my criteria based on those that are ‘universal’ or can be agreed upon by everybody to rate a singer.
Something like sweetness of voice *cannot* be agreed upon by everybody. Like I said in an earlier post, in such a case, whom are you going to believe ? For me, when something cannot be universally agreed upon, it becomes subjective. Because, there is no basis to justify one choice against another.
Going off-key, losing the texture in the voice, missing notes etc. are all criteria that can be universally agreed upon. For example, if Kumar Sanu goes off-key, me, you, Manish, Arghya can all agree and criticize him for it. But, if Arghya claims that Sanu’s voice is so sweet or soothing (sorry, Arghya, :-)) – assuming that Sanu has not gone besur, a big assumption, but still – and you or I do not agree, does that mean Arghya is wrong ? How can we say that ? Why should our opinion count more than his ? That’s why I do not use subjective criteria to rate a singer. Because they cannot be universally agreed upon.
Smitha,
Regarding post 1409,
They are all good songs (esp. the first two), but they do not really contain any taans. They have decent murkhis/harkats that are typical of many of Rafi’s songs of that period.
They are similar to what Kishore used to sing during the early phase of his career:
Husn bhi hai udhaas
jagmag jagmag karta nikla
mere sukh dukh ka sansar
dukhi man mere sun mera kehna
These do not contain any elaborate taans of the classical variety. These are not beyond the means of Kishore’s capability.
I am really thankful to Manish, Savitha, Arghya, Bose for such a wonderful discussion on Rafi and kk.
Being a Rafi fan, I just want to point that every singer his good in his comfort zone and it applies to both Rafi and kk but comfort zone of Rafi is much wider and deeper than KK.
I think KK’s voice does not suite quawaalis, Ghazal, Patriotic songs, Bhajans as he lacks classical back ground.
anyways, I was listening to Man re tu kahe na Dheer dhare by KK as he was givng tribute to Rafi. He sounded very novice and besura… It could be due to lack pf practice but check it out yrself on youtube and give me yr feedback…
search for Kishore tribute Rafi and you waill get this song.
Mr.Manish:
Here are some songs where Rafi goes pretty low:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfedSbuOos
Not only is he very comfortable at those low ‘dha’s and ‘ni’s, but he also executes nice little taans at these notes. Watch out for that excellent ‘taan’ on the upswing at 4.13.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMdlXYckCrQ.
This song goes high at many places but there is much sustained low-pitched singing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlpTUfk3E8s.
This song goes as low as low-dha at ‘sitare..’ and the voice is very crisp and defined (though a little husky) at that level.
Mr.Manish:
You are spot on with your observation on the various modulations Rafi was able to make.
Please listen to this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCmrKSF4WRg.
There is very little ‘direct’ punch. The body of the voice is almost fully comprised of secondary sound waves.
Now to this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfKx-ZbWB-E.
More meat in the primary voice and a little coarseness to go with Amitabh’s persona.
Here is another song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clcq-vW8svU
Youthful, energetic voice for an actor someone who was nearly 20 years younger.
Remeber all these songs came out within a span of 1-2 yrs.
Mr.Bose:
Here are 3 songs where Rafi goes just right with the ‘taans’. How does Kishore’s ‘taan’ in Sharabi compare with these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZY8iPh2ndQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0FeGJSOtaU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeIiXWjQTXI
Smitha,
Yes, I was talking about the one at 5:36. It is not intricate by any means, but it definitely matches up to what Rafi was capable of doing. Also, remember that this movie was in 1985, 2 yrs before Kishore’s demise, well past Kishore’s peak. Rafi’s equivalent age would’ve been in 1980. And even you would agree that Rafi in 1980 was waaaaay past his peak. The same is true for Kishore in 1985. I have no doubts that Kishore would’ve been able to pull off more elaborate ones at his peak.
Regarding sweetness, my reply was not an escapist one. You made the claim that Rafi’s voice was sweeter than Kishore’s. I never made the converse claim. I simply asked for proof of that statement. After all, you are claiming it as a fact. If something is a fact, there must be something that can substantiate it. For example, when I say that Kishore is a better singer than Mukesh, I can prove it by listing out the various songs where Mukesh has gone off-key and compare that list to the list where Kishore has gone off-key. And I will end up with a much bigger list (relatively). That’s a valid proof because a really good singer rarely goes off-key, if at all.
Here is a hypothetical scenario that’s not entirely impossible, when talking about famous musicians. Let’s assume that Naushad, an unabashed admirer of Rafi, says Rafi’s voice is the sweetest voice he has heard, and either RDB or CR or even Anil Biswas, a known fan of Kishore, claims that Kishore’s voice is the sweetest singing voice he has heard. Who is right ? Who is wrong ? See what I mean ?
By the way, ‘sureelapan’ is not a given even when we talk about famous singers. Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, even Mahendra Kapoor have gone off-key quite often, considering the name and fame they have received as singers.
Since I am talking only about the technical aspects of singing, yes, what makes Lata (and Asha) unique is her ‘sureelapan’ in every song she has sung until the late-70’s/early-80’s. And I mean, her sureelapan and precision in singing songs as tough as “Manmohana bade jhoote”, “Sakhi ri sun bole papiha us paar” with remarkable control and precision does make her unique. As does her remarkable voice control in executing taans that are as exhilirating as in “jhananan jhan” and “aaja bhanwar” from “Rani Roopmati”.
But I will not claim that Lata’s voice is the sweetest voice around. Biswas/CR liked Lata’s voice while OPN, RDB loved Asha’s and Geeta Dutt’s voice. Who is right here ? My south indian colleague thinks that Chithra’s voice is the sweetest voice he has ever heard. And he is as right as anyone who says Lata’s or Asha’s voice is the sweetest.
I will listen to the young boy’s song when I get home today.
Mr.Arghya:
You seem to be confusing ‘arrogance’ with ‘confidence’. Rafi knew, according to me, where he stood. I can tell you about a singer in the South who enjoys the status which Rafi used to enjoy in HFM. He goes by the name K J Yesu Das. He speaks good about SPB and other well-known South Indian singers, when he is being asked to and he respects all of them. But he knows, more than anyone else, where exactly he stands. This is confidence and not arrogance. He is a modest, unassuming person (and a big time Rafi fan too).
I again pitch in something about “voice” which I have already said looking at the discussions,, You can very well ignore my observation but rememebr, all discussions start and end over here only,, I have been observing this Rafi and Kishore battle for the last 15 years or so and mind you, no one is inferior in their “own gambit”!! Otherwise, the dispute would not have lasted for 15 years since I had got hold of it and perhaps, 20 more years beforehand, when I did not know about that!! For Rafifans, buddy, it is not a cakewalk!! In “singing”, Surajitda might have subtracted some marks for Rafi trying “classical” and failing, but still, I give Rafi some more marks on my part for “at least trying” in a true olympic sportsmanship and subtract as much as I can from Kishore for “not even trying them”!! Leave apart “enactment of a song”, “adjusting voice according to actors” or “performing a song”!! Just forget,,
But, ultimately, it is the “voice” factor which differentiates everything and with all your technicalities(I am also a graduate of Bangiya Sangeet Parishad, though, caught up in wrong job!!!!-Naukri.com ,plz help me!) again come down to that “voice ” basis,,
As I have already said “Some like coffee with extra sugar and some like it strong and dark”!! It is ur choice of coffee,, If you are a diabetic,and fall in the first zone, go for Sugar Free!!! (Just joking,,lol..)!!
Mr.Bose:
I have listened to the ‘sharabi’ song. I had to be at my patient best to tell you frankly. Asha in a mediocre song is intolerable for me. Now, where does this intricate ‘taan’ appear? Is it there in the ‘mmm..’ at 5.03, or ‘naam..’ at 5.15 or ‘ha-aa…’ at 5.36 or is it in the final alaap? I can’t find anything in the song which any capable singer is incapable of executing. One good thing about the song is that Kishore’s voice and style goes well with Amitabh and that the song itself doesn’t go below the ‘mediocre’ level. It is a big deal, considering it is a Bappi song.
Now you have asked me to prove that Rafi’s voice is sweeter than Kishore’s. Before going to that discussion let me clarify that sweetness is not the only criterion to judge a voice, there so many other,some measurable, some not. But the immeasurable aspects cannot be branded subjective. To say a voice is to be judged on the basis of ‘even-pitched’ property is a hard-sell when one is speaking about voices that have made it real big.
Now to your challenge. I cannot measure out the quantity of sweetness ivolved in Rafi’s or any singer’s voice and prove that this particular voice is sweeter by this much quantity. But as I said before, the fact that these abtracts like ‘sweetness of voice’ are not guagable doesn’t make them fully subjective. “I like Kishore’s voice, so it is sweeter to me, can you prove it is not so?” is not a well-learnt or well-analysed opinion. Rather it is a generalised, escapist one. You ask any good (not necessarily famous) musician about voices and I will be surprised if they would reply with ‘to each his own’ answer.
Now I also have asked you a question and let me repeat it again. What makes Lata’s voice special? Just the ‘sureelapan’?
Another querry, if you don’t mind. Please watch this link and prove that Kishore is superior to the young boy who is singing (using the ‘measurable’ parameters). You may also compare his ‘taans’ with Kishore’s in the ‘sharabi’ song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fVwES67R0.
Manishji,,
Yes, I know the direct answer is not very available otherwise I could have got hold of something much earlier:),, But, yes, you are true in interpretation of that stage show event,, I mean it is very easy to say Kishore was “arrogant” and Rafi acted “more than nicely”..(In most of the Rafi fans interpretation) which I also disagree as Kishore had shown respect to rafi many times even before 70s!! Your logic makes sense that way, it was Kishore’s agahsteness at the organizers(irrespective of Rafisaab) and when Rafisaab made that gesture, he could realize that indirectly his aghastness to the organizers might have sounded like against Rafi!! So, he immediately rectified himself!
Paramjeet,
I am not at all raising any “oot patang” question here nor am I very much interested in knowing who has said what for Kishore! I became fan of Kishore without even knowing how much the rest of the country love him too!! I was too small to realize these publicity and popularity,, I had some “questions” in my mind and that is why at the very outset of raising this query I had asked everyone not to misunderstand me ,, Many took me in good hearts, it seems you did not, does not matter! But, I really loved the way you admire Kishoreda and after Manoj Shuklaji, I saw another true Kishore fan in you!! Thatz awesome, keep rocking,, And you are very true in saying “we should not go around proving Kishore to be a god, let him remain a human being who has inspired millions of human beings and still making their life beautiful”!
Hi Smitha,
First off, I guess you are pressed for time and didn’t listen to all of the clips that I posted. In any case, I am posting, again, one other Kishore song with longer taans, murkhis, and alaaps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tciligWD6_I&fmt=18
Kishore comes in at 5:00. This song is nearing towards the end of Kishore’s career and life. He could probably have pulled off more difficult ones during his peak.
And, yes, Kishore could pull off taans on the swing as well as Rafi could, without any formal training. But that doesn’t mean that Kishore did not have to practice those taans. Voice and voice control, like any other skill, requires practice or riyaaz, to keep it in top shape. Further, formal training only gives greater control (to a good but limited extent) over your voice and makes it easier for you to execute better that which you could previously execute only to a certain degree. It does not make you do things that your voice cannot naturally do. So, I don’t think Rafi’s formal training would have helped him a great deal in executing taans on the swing.
I never said Kishore’s taans were different just because he was natural. Structurally, a taan should still adhere to the constraints of rhythm/taal, sur, and the precision in their sweep across the notes. And surely, that can be judged without too much difficulty.
Coming to “O Duniya ke rakhwale”, the MAIN thing that makes this a difficult song to render is the high pitch in which it is sung towards the upper end of the range. The song itself covers 2 octaves – (low Dha to high Dha) – and, sans any taans or murkhis, it is not impossible to sing for a really good singer. But taar Dha, especially in Rafi’s scale (in absolute terms, not in terms of HCM where the high notes depend on where the singer puts his ‘tonic’), is difficult for most singers to pull off.
But that does not make it the best ‘Darbari Kanada’ song. I mean I can understand if you or a Rafi fan considers it yours/their best song in ‘Darbari Kanada’.
A South Indian music fan (Telugu music) pointed out to me a superb song in ‘Darbari Kanada’, sung by Ghantasala. IMO, this trumps any other film song that I have heard in ‘Darbari Kanada’. Ghantasala goes as high as taar Ni (top Ni) which is only possible for a really good classical singer to pull off. Listen, enjoy, and especially pay attention to the last 1 min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvg3dZ2r7Xg&feature=related
Yes, it is possible for a talented, natural singer to execute taans as well as a reasonably trained classical singer. S.P.Balasubramanyam is another singer who, IMO, was talented enough to do that. But, like I said, that doesn’t mean that they can skip practice just because they are talented enough to pull it off. It’s just that they don’t require as much practice as most others.
Regarding better examples than “Meraaaa” and “Tera vadaaaa”, I had already pointed out the “Sharaabi” song a couple of times, including at the top of this post.
now to arghya’s response to the live concert story…
why was kk upset with the event organizers for also calling mohammed rafi? the answer to this question and rafi sahab’s interpretation of that will clarify the issue.
given rafi’s saintly nature, his generosity in complimenting and encouraging other singers, and his closeness to kishore directly and indirectly with ashok kumar and sd burman long before aradhana – the obvious and immediate reaction is that he meant to compliment kishore. besides, i imagine rafi sahab saying that remark to kk with a loving, beaming smile. if it was saracstic as suspected, then it would have to be obvious (and probably lead to a misunderstanding) but such was never the case.
i am going to guess that kk was upset because: given the times and the climate for rivalry stirred by raju bharatan in the early 70s, calling 2 revered, big singers at an event may further trigger a sense of “rivarly” especially amongst the crowd. who was called to the stage first? o – so and so is so much better we want him! – stuff like that. both rafi & kishore did not appreciate the media or public stirring this up. rafi understood this as kk’s reason for being unhappy and just went on to compliment kishore. this theory is consistent with what we know about rafi, kishore and their actions. now, the other possiblity, which i doubt, but could support arghya’s suspicion is that rafi misunderstood kk’s unhappiness. i doubt that.
arghya,
you know more facts about this than i do but i’ll share my thoughts. mohammed rafi was among the industry insiders involved in the movement to lift that unfair banning of kishore from all india radio during the emergency. this was one of the few times in the 70s where kishore was NOT walking on water (due to injustice) and rafi did not waste the opportunity to show what a class act and friend of kk he was. otherwise, for most of the 70s, kk was walking on water with hit after hit, high demand, and adulation from millions of fans and the industry. in that scenario a compliment isn’t really needed because the high regard is already, visibly out there (this may be speculation but i threw it out anyway).
furthermore, i suppose rafi did not feel comfortable making remarks that may be twisted some way by media or way of rumors. you know well how pancham was interviewed by raju bharatan regarding deewar and the latter twisted pancham’s comment as an admission of mediocrity. you also know that even today kishroe’s love for rafi sometimes gets misinterpreted as a concession (certainly not true!). now as for the story of rafi – mukesh. if i was in rafi’s shoes i wouldn’t comfortably or naturally respond to such a comment. i’d stay mum myself. more importantly, i personally don’t appreciate the hyperbolic comments made by legends that they don’t fully mean. it would be hard for rafi to respond to mukesh’ comment. it may be sincere on mukesh’s part but it would be false for rafi to support that. i’m sure if kishore decided to take up singing in the 60s he’d have done well and maybe mukesh would have had losses but rafi wouldn’t be too affected. now my point is not to speculate but merely that i’m sure rafi had that self-confidence in him as he looked back to his great success in the 60s to not readily agree or naturally chime in with mukesh. the natural and fair response, especially for an introvert like rafi, would be to stay mum. i interpret that as a positive thing. others may have retorted or said a hyperbolic comment they did not mean. if mukesh said that line the media woudln’t care as much. now imagine if rafi himself had said it – the media would have started all kinds of trouble.
remember the psychology of humans. rafi, kishore etc. were great human beings and great singers but at the end of the day they were human. you have to leave room for error and you also have to leave room for reality. i never, never, never! take negatively kishore’s comment to lp that they only gave rafi the best compositions. i can fully sympathize, understand, and appreciate kishroe’s feeling. that’s just a professional and a devoted artist trying to avoid getting shortchanged. nothing more. his feelings are 100% justified. one of my biggest regrets as a kishore fan myself, is that kishore never got as many great compositions as he deserved. i’ll elaborate more on this later (and its consequencs). as a rafi fan i’m not particuarly thrilled about the guiness book of world records debacle that naushad got rafi involved in. but they are humans and these things happen. just as you perfectly talked about kishore’s trivial misunderstandings with salil, lala, asha etc. these things happen but they don’t reflect the big picture or the true relations.
i’m sure that there are lots of small episodes where rafi or kishored showed respect to one another. these small epsides are just moments of their lives and not something to particularly document. yet those small episodes cumulate over the years into a life time of friendship. that cumulation is something documenting will not achieve but can be experienced only by rafi & kishore as they lived their lives together and interacted with one another.
i know that during the peak of early 1970s media speculation of “rivalry”, kishore was in london giving a concert and rafi sahab was living there. so rafi sahab invited kishore and amit for a first class home made meal. afterwards they sang together, talked and had a great time. the media could not shake their friendship. rafi coming to kishore’s support when the latter is unjustly bound by the government. these things speak volumes for me. I’m sorry that i didn’t directly answer your question but thanks for bringing up an interesting angle.