An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Smitha…
I went about comparing SPB with Kishore?? Are you out of your mind?
Kishore ke itne bhi boore din nahi aye hai…
I said “what SPB said cannot be a meaurement of singers like Rafi and Kishore” to which you said, yes, it cannot be because SPB>Kishore…Honestly, before that, in the last 20 years of my close association with film music and having the good luck to meet so many knwledgable industry people, this was the first time I heard something as bizarre as something which you said…This is a democratic country, and we all have our rights to express ourselves,,, i and out I was respectable to all the singers whom really I admire so much and SPB is one of them and I said so also in my post… People like you actually go out of your limits without backup..
Mr.Bose:
When did I say or try to prove that South Indian singers are better? Can you show me trying to do it? I wrote about SPB just to disprove your notion that ‘only’ Kishore could do a ‘aake seedhi’ or ‘chala jaatha hoon’. If you would follow the posts (that are still available here) you would find that it is Mr. Arghya who went about comparing SPB with Kishore and I was only replying to him. If you would note, I was infact applying your parameters of comparison in my reply to Mr.Arghya.
When you say Ghantasala, Yesu Das etc are technically better singers than Rafi, it is only partly true. If you mean they are better classical singers, one can’t disagree. But then, Rafi was not a classical singer. S.Janaki, by the way, is not a well-trained singer. But she is good in filmy semi-classical songs, which she interprets in her own way as Rafi did with his semi-classical songs.
For your information, Yesu Das did infact hear Rafi in private session. He considers those moments as very precious. I have read him describing the whole event.
Yeah, I would like to go back again to your points and debate, may be I can start later in the day.
Smitha..
The day SPB achieves the “stature” Kishore has in singing come back to me.. till then keep your theories with you,,,
Have you by the way heard “shing nei tobu naam taar shingho” and then “yeh duniya ghum rahi hai”?? No hold of octaves, range and taans can teach you this song,,, That is the basic difference between Kishore and other singers,except Rafisaab,…
With how many actors SPB “could adjust his voice”.. How many times his voice was flexible enough to transform from mild to robust like Kishore “Chhokar mere man ko” to “koi hota jisko apna” according to the mood and feel of the song?? How many “out of the box” singing he has done? You were talking about the “impact of aake seedhi na”?? The impact is the song was “an out of the box thinking” which in 2009 might be common but back in 1962 was “adventorous” and ” weird”!! KK took the risk and delivered, that was the impact, FYKI…
Hi Smitha,
I am not sure what your point is. If you are saying there are singers in regional languages who are “better” singers than Kishore was, fair enough, there’s not much to debate on that. India is a huge country and there must be some really good singers. But, the truth is, those singers who are “better” than Kishore “even in their sleep” are also “better” singers than Rafi. Yesudas, Ghantasala, S. Janaki are all technically better singers than both Kishore and Rafi.
Of course, “greatness” is a different story. Rafi is probably a “greater” singer than them because of the advantage of singing in the national language and having an impact on a far greater audience than them. But I don’t see why SPB and Yesudas’ worship of Rafi has any say in this matter. It’s more probable that they were Rafi fans mainly because Rafi was the leading singer in the previous generation (1950’s and 1960’s) to them. Yesudas and SPB both came out in the mid-to-late ’60’s. And since Kishore’s peak itself (in the 1970’s) coincided with their own career, they probably consider Kishore as their contemporary.
In any case, this line of reasoning doesn’t do anything. If such talented singers as SPB and Yesudas worshipped Rafi, Rafi himself probably worshipped Saigal and Durrani. So I guess Saigal and Durrani are the best singers India has ever produced ? And why should SPB’s or Yesudas’ opinion be the gold standard ? It’s not as if they have heard Rafi in a private session that none of us have heard. SPB and Yesudas have heard the same songs that we all have heard from Rafi. We can trust our own ears in assessing the songs on their own merit. It’s not like only good singers have the ears to judge other singers.
Also, we are just moving around in circles debating various aspects without resolution. It would be good if we could once again cover all the aspects I have identified and the points you have raised regarding those points and see who are the lead pack. I will stick to HFM since I have no idea regarding singers down South.
Surajit wrote: “SJ, on the other hand, when using Rafi for Shammi Kapoor, made him sing the song in a way that was not the natural bent of his personality.”
True and it’s an indication of Rafi’s genius in understanding the persona, getting into the character, and then using his God-gifted expression of emotions and sound judgment. Rafi adapted to perfectly suit Shammi Kapoor’s persona. Shammi Kapoor and Rafi are one of the most close, consistent, matching, and successful pairings in all of HFM. But you already knew that Rafi’s natural bent was not touching a drop of alcohol either yet he sang “Aaj is Darja” and “Chalkaaye Jaam” to perfection.
“And Rafi himself said that he felt uncomfortable singing those *too boisterous* songs for SJ.”
I am not aware of this. I am aware of this anecdote from Naushad: Once he came to me after recording one such song. He was very upset and said, “Kya waqt aaya hai, ganeka bajay kutte-billi ki boli bolni pad rahi hai!” (Instead of singing, they ask me to talk the language of dogs and cats!). This is not referring to songs of the SJ-Shammi mould but very weird songs like “Saj Rahi Gali” from Kunwara Baap or “Yeh Naach Vaach Kya Hai” from Ek Haseena Do Deewane. Tell you the truth, in the beginning even I was hesitant while listening to those songs. In fact, someone PLEASE reassure me that the person who does the “beedya-pap-aap-pap” sound in “Yeh Naach Vaach Kya Hai” is not Rafi! Rafi frequently sang “Chahe Koi Mujhe Junglee Kahe” in his live concerts. “Tumse Aacha Kaun Hai” title song (not the one from Janwar) is probably the most boisterous Shammi Kapoor number that I know yet Rafi sounds so natural, comfortable, spontaneous, and convincing. Not sure if “Dil Ke Jharoke Mein” qualifies as boisterous (it certainly is loud as the scene demands) but the song was initially composed to be sung at one range. Rafi, Shammi, and SJ all got together and decided that the song would better suit the expressions of a broken heart if rendered at several different levels range. Rafi initially started the song at low pitch and then sang the subsequent verses at increasing scales while having to maintain very little breathing. At the end, Rafi ended up singing the song at twice the range initially intended by SJ. This kind of shows you how comfortable the four were working together with each other.
To briefly digress: even in the 70s when commercial factors and producers forced SJ to use Kishore the most, the singer that SJ most preferred and felt comfortable with was still Rafi. Shankar composed Lal Patthar with Rafi in mind but the producer demanded Kishore. SJ and Rafi were like family. As a fan of both SJ & Rafi, I take special interest in that.
“It was not very natural, and to me, it was somewhat apparent.”
Why don’t you give me several examples of this from the Rafi – SJ combo?
Here’s a quote from Shammi Kapoor on a song that some feel is unnatural: “I remember when he sang Main gaoon tum so jaao for Brahmachari, I told him how I wanted him to sing one particular line. When he saw the picturisation he came and kissed my hand and said, ‘it’s very beautiful, why didn’t I think of that?’
I guess I’m in the minority because that is one of my favorite songs of all time and I especially like that “improvised part” suggested by Shammi. This is so despite me knowing that Rafi wasn’t quite as good as Kishore in speaking during parts of songs.
“Obviously, all this is IMO.”
Of course.
Smitha…
Barrage on the comments on bengali composers??
What about you not accepting anything against the “typically accented” South Indian singers who floated in Bollywood in the 80s?? They were technically great(just like you), but could never “adjust voice according to actors”, ” had that typical accent everywhere” and ” a voice which used to vibrate more than usual like a thumping iron rod”! A R Rehman tried initially with all those southies initially and for the first couple of years did not go to any Bollywood singers… Why such a change now?? Why Sukhvinder Singh now?
Please dont indulge into that game!!
Mr.Arghya:
I can’t get much of what you want to convey. Really I can’t. Do you mean I have already compared the 2 songs you have mentioned in my posts to Mr.Bose?
I am reproducing one sentence of yours.
‘I know you are among those guys “knowing the fact” but ” not admitting” because that hurts your ego..’.
My response:
How do you know it? What do you like to see me ‘admitting’? I am not a ‘guy’ by the way.
Here is another sentence.
‘Anyways, I could have answered you “earlier” and “better”, but thatz all, as I said, i am afraid to go to my hardcore Bengali cultured father and criticize on Hemanta,, I just dont have that in my blood(thatz why I cannnot criticize anyone, even Rafi, when his fans throw mud at Kishore calling him “rickshawallah voice”)….’.
My response.
I am really baffled. Where does Hemant come to picture? What criticism are you speaking about?
About Kishore’s range- I have already mentioned it before. He could go from a low ‘ma’ (f2) to a high ‘ga’ (e4) when he was young. After about 70-71, he could touch a low ‘dha’ (a2) and go upto a high ‘ga’ (e4). I would be happy if you can point out any songs where Kishore has touched lower or higher notes.
By the way, how come I can’t see your last post here?
And Smitha,,,,
“taan by taaan” and “sur by sur”, even Sonu Nigam never went off key anytime nor was he unclear at any time in the higher or lower notes..
So, should we take Sonu>Rafi?/(definitely, according to you, Sonu?Kishore, no doubt)
Lastly Toufique saab,…
One thing I always tell all I am tellling you also… Singers like Rafi, Kishore(of course, if you think Kishore’s name can be taken in a same breath as that of Rafi’s, if you dont think so, replace Kishore’s name with SPB or anyone as per your choice) do not require any music director to prove their talent… MDs only sometimes act like an enhancer, but if the material is not there, what can they do??? Do you think Shamshad Begum was short of patronage anywhere in her career?? Right from OP Nayar, SD Burman, Naushad, Ghulam Mohammed, Roshan- all went to Shamshad in the early 50s… Where was she after late 50s?? Please see, I am not against Shamshad sahiba, who indeed was an accomplished singer, my only point is, for great singers, MDs are only enablers or enhancers, that is all!! Rafi would have anyday sung “Man tarapat hari darshan ko”, anytime..be it 1944 or 1974, but Naushad “made that chance to him”(beacuse of confidence, trust whatsoever) to sing that song, that is Naushad’s credit!! Now, if someone says, Naushad was responsible to “make Rafi a great singer”…hmm… you can handle that person beter than me…
Toufique
Nice to know even you have read Ganesh Anantharaman thoroughly… cool.. As far as SDB is concerned, he gave Kishore “dukhi man mere” or “o bewafa yeh to bata”, but if he thought kishore could better emote “qasoor aapka huzoor aap ka” or ” chahe koi khush ho chahe”, is there any problem? I dont have any problem… It is only for the so called music fans I mention songs like “Duniya o duniya” or “Aaye tum yaad mujhe”, otherwise I dont have musically any problem with “Aye meri topi palat ke aa”- which is amazingly sung!! SD thought Kishore could sing “lighter songs” better and then shifting to Kishore in the “heavier” songs, has only to do with his confidence on the market accepatbility(which he thought never accepted Kishore as a serious singer even after “dukhi man mere”)….
As for “Aradhana” story, get out of Ganesh Anantharaman and read Derek Bose where the author himself has given evidences from associates of SD that indeed “Mere sapno ki rani” and “Roop tera masatna” were made for Kishore and Kishore made several sessions of rehearsal, met and spent 3 hours with Rajesh Khanna to understand the newcomer’s manerism as he was told by SDB clearly that this is “your do or die chance”… SD fell ill, and RD made one single value addition, changed the orchestration and recorded the songs himself- thatz all!!!
SD had taken folk tunes and Rabindrasangeet… Let me tell you what Ganesh Anatharaman could not tell you in his interview with Manna De about SD Burman:
1. Jaye to jaye kaha- a note to note copy of “He khoniker atithi” a Rabindrasangeet
2. Poochho na kaise maine- note to note copy of “Aruna kanti ke go jogi” a Nazrul geeti
3. Tere mere milan ki yeh raina- mukhda a pure cipy of “Jodi taare naai chini” a Rabindrasangeet- although the Antara is SD’s genuine composition and I personally find it as good as rabindranath’s own composed antara, honestly!
But, is plagiarism only SD’s copyright.. He got inspired from Rabindranath, but what about OP Nayyar who plagiarised entire composition of SDB’s “tang aa gaye hai duniya ke kashmakash mein hum” from Pyasa to make “humko tumhare ishq ne kya kya bana diya”??? or copying note to note the english song “Hey mambo” to make “Hey babu yeh hai zamana tera” in Bhagam bhag?? What about Roshan, officially plagiarizing with written consent of SDB, the tune of “Thandi hawayein” to make “Rahe na rahe hum”?? Salil made “Itna na mujhse tu pyar badha” from Mozart’s 19th symphony, then what?? C Ramchandra’s many tunes were lift ups from western compact discs.. Is it worhy to neglect a composr’s entire 1000 works only because 10-15 songs were plagiarized?? That way, even getting inspired by Ragas is plagiarism.. Remove Malkosh and Darbari Kanada, Naushad’s 20% output is gone!!(allow me to speak, I know Naushad is a sensitive topic for Rafians)
I am not saying SDB should not be criticized.. but to thwart all his efforts by using such claims are not good… Talking about launching new singers?? SDB did not do it?? Tell you sir, from Kishore, Geeta Dutt to Anuradha Paudwal to Danny – their singing footstones were through SDB only.. SDB could have very well kept the Lata’s version of prabhat bhajan in “Abhimaan”, but his chosing ultimately the 16 yr old Anuradha’s rendition, whcih was made only as a standby so that the shooting could be made, shows his confidence and enthusiasm to use fresh voices…
What Naushad has done, by the way, to promote new voices apart from Rafi?? He came to Lata, when Noorjahan was firm on her decision to go back to Pakistan after partition… Mukesh was launched by Anil Biswas and Naushad used him in “Mela” and “Andaaz” and then just threw away!!! But still, you would find Naushad encouraging new singers and not SDB!! Give me a break!
Smitha…
Little knowledge is more dangerous than nno knowledge..
1. Kishore’s octave was less than 2?? Are you sure? What would you give me if I prove him covering entire 3 octaves?
2. I take SPB>Kishore.. I dont have any issue as far as singing is concerned.. I admit techincally Yesudas>Kishore, so sPB should not be a problem for me,,, Only listen Kishore’s bengali “Shing nei tobu naam taar shingho” which he sang in 1958 and then SPB’s “Yeh duniya ghum rahi hai” – the Hindi version which he sang as late as in 1985 with all the recording modifications and the help of great RDB… Come back to me… I know your answer, I have seen your answer so many times from your conversation with Surajitbabu and I know you are among those guys “knowing the fact” but ” not admitting” because that hurts your ego.. Anyways, I could have answered you “earlier” and “better”, but thatz all, as I said, i am afraid to go to my hardcore Bengali cultured father and criticize on Hemanta,, I just dont have that in my blood(thatz why I cannnot criticize anyone, even Rafi, when his fans throw mud at Kishore calling him “rickshawallah voice”)….
SPB’s diction in Hindi or whether he could reach that “respect” and “influence on generations” on a “national level”(and a nation is more thanfour states), you answer better….
Manish:
Let me post another song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYWAOdIaAc
Here is Sonu singing it live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH-cHVFbpkM
Good as he is and hard as he tries, Sonu can’t really recreate it.
I am not going into a detailed comparison; just want to mention the fact that Rafi’s varying voice character at varying pitches adds a thing to the song, so does the singing ease at various notes.
Mr.Toufique:
Thanks again for the Salil-Rafi clips. I have listened to them all. While listening to ‘toothe hue khwabon’, I couln’t help thinking why Salil kept himself away from Rafi and more such priceless gems.
Now here is a little advise (if you don’t mind). Be ready for a barrage now that you have commented something about SDB and Bengali MDs in general.
Mr.Bose:
Talat could express exuberance well, may not be in the ‘jhumroo’ way. I don’t see an ‘advantage Kishore’ in a direct comparison with Talat when speaking about ‘singing’ unless you want to include ‘jhumroos’ and ‘eena meenas’ in the discussion as part of singing.
Then there are moods which Talat could express better than Kishore and Talat had a voice at his prime which was not matched by Kishore at any point in his career.
Speaking of MK, I can’t agree that he had a less smoother voice than Kishore if you want to generalise it. When he was young, MK did have a smooth enough voice (Kishore also had, by the way). His voice started showing signs of wear and tear by the late ’60s. But then Kishore’s voice also lost much of its smoothness by the early ’70s. But the difference in basic texture of the two singers’ voice made it possible for Kishore to pull through with a roughened voice and impossible for MK to do the same.
Speaking of vocal ranges, a 2+ octave range with falsetto is mediocre. Ad yodelling is an easy-falsetto. If you want to include falsetto range, you should be speaking about a 3+, 4+ octave range. I am sure Rafi should be having a 3+ range if you include the falsetto range. Yesu Das has a 3.5+ range with (his own version of) falsetto. If you watch the link I had provided (of the boy singing a Yesu Das song), you will find that the young chap is covering about 2.25 octaves in a true voice and another 0.5 in falsetto. And this falsetto is a tougher falsetto (with ahead voice) than the yodelling one (which is like whistling). If you are fixated with yodelling, let me tell you that it is not a big deal at all for a singer who practises it. Every other English pop singer does it, SPB does it when he wants to (which is not very common), I think Sonu does it and Rafi did it. Rafi could have done it more frequently and with more ‘impact’ if he (and S-J and OPN) wanted to.
Mr.Bose:
The fact that SPB considers Rafi ‘impossibly great’ has a bearing on the issue.
#1. SPB can and he has done the ‘aake seedhi-like’ antics many times
#2. He doesn’t gloat over these ‘achievements’.
#3. When he says Rafi is too great, he means what Rafi has done is greater and more complex than all the ‘aakhe seedhis’ and ‘jhumroos’.
Okay if you still want to prove a point with ‘aake seedhi’ let us discuss it more.
I have absolutely no doubt that Sonu would have pulled it off just as well or even better. I have also no doubt that many of the new gen singers would be able to do it competently. Among the old generation singers, Manna Dey could have pulled it off without a sweat. Asha would have done it very well (in the reverse manner). S.Janaki would have done it as if she is singing a nursery rhyme. Actually she has done it in the South Indian movies. Rafi? My guess is that it would have taken some convincing from the MD to get him do that. Otherwise I don’t see any issues with Rafi singing in female (falsetto) voice and switching to male voice alternately.
If you want to prove that these songs, yodelling etc. are part of the rich HFM culture, it is okay with me. If you think that rules of singing doesn’t apply to HFM, it is just fine with me too; after all you are the one who framed certain strict rules for comparison of singers.
I will be back with Talat, his range et al later.
Mr Arghya,
SDB started in 1937 (in Mumbai 1946), Naushad in 1940. In terms of age – SDB was Naushad’s senior by 13 years. People first recognized (as a first grade composer) SDB by Taxi driver (1954) when he won the Filmfare for jayen to jayen kaha. Naushad was so moved by the song that he went to the backstage to congratulate SDB (Only if he knew that it was based on a Tagore’s song!!!!). SDB was 48 then and Naushad was 35. By that time Naushad has already made all the contributions that people attribute to him. 1. Introducing UP folk songs (Rattan 1944) 2. Use of instruments like dholok (Rattan?, Anmol Ghadi) 3.Introducing Rafi, Suraiya, Talat (in hindi) 4. Use of echo (Mela 1948) 4. Making background scores significant parts of movies (Aan 1952) 5. Taking Classical music to the mass (1952) 5. Use of separate recording of voice, use of 100 pieces orchestra.
SDB made extensive use of Bengali folk song but Bengali folk song never got that kind of recognition (or place/hold in hfm) that UP or Punjabi folk songs received. The reason is that Bengali MDs never really tried that honestly, they just exploited it for their own gains (sorry if I am too harsh). Who cares if Roop tera mastana is based on a folk tune? Does it sound like a folk song? One advantage of using folk tunes is that they have already passed the acid test as they have survived several decades (or centuries?). The likelihood that a song based on such a tune would be a hit is higher.
You said that SDB didn’t think much of Kishore as a singer before Aradhana. I have 2 points here. 1. SDB never really thought about anybody. If he wasn’t ill, kishore wouldn’t have got the chance to sing those songs. So ‘kishore in aradhana (the way he is)’ is hardly SDB’s contribution. Its RDB. Sdb did not introduce any new singers. Being able to give new singers to the industry is something that I regard very highly. 2. Kishore was singing for him for 2 decades almost. I know, you have pretty good knowledge of music. Do u think that it takes 20 years for an MD to know whether the singer is really a gem! On the other way, if it takes 20 years for a singer to give the MDs signal about his true potential, wat would be your opinion abt the singer. By 1969, kishore has sang almost 500 songs (my guess) which is higher than total career output of Saigal or Talat (individually). That’s a dilemma that I can’t solve.
I have read Manna Dey accusing SDB of copying from tagore’s songs. usually 1/2 songs in every movie are direct copy of some bengali songs — tagore’s, nazrul’s and folk songs. here are some examples: jaye to jaye kaha (taxi driver), gun guna rahi (aradhana), tere mere milan ki (abhiman) are copy of tagore’s songs. Puchhona kaise maine (meri surat tere aankhi) is copy of a Nazrul Sangeet. And folk? — a lot of them. In his initial years sdb collected almost 250 folk songs (from bengal and tripura/comilla). In an interview sdb himself said this and also mentioned that he still had many unused tunes.
Also, i find sdb’s classical knowledge (on the basis of what he composed) very meager. rdb knew classical better than sdb.
I don’t want to make someone god or someone villain. Just give people the credit/accolade that they deserve. Not more than that, not less than that.
Note: today is the 148th birth annv. of Rabindranath Tagore. I wish Tagore was alive to see wat SDB did. That would have been fun (as we know Tagore was very particular about his creations)
Smitha,
regarding 1481.
Talat is one of my favourite singers and I have songs of him that you probably haven’t even heard. I know his prowess as well as his limitations.
Kishore’s vocal range is > 2 octaves if you include yodelling. And I do include that as part of singing. Maybe you don’t. For me, even though I am an avid student of HCM, I don’t think that most of the *rules* of conservative Indian musicians apply here. Music/singing is a global phenomenon and anything that is done in “sur” and is melodious to listen to is music – to me. And Kishore’s yodelling is perfectly in sur and is done very melodiously.
Further, Talat can never pull off the songs of the fun-n-frolic variety. I would be surprised if Talat can pull off “eena meena deeka” or “main hoon jhumroo” type songs with the same exuberance and urgency as Kishore did.
MK, with all due respects, has a couple of issues. Firstly his voice doesn’t have the same *taazgi* as either Rafi or Kishore did. You would have to pass his voice through a couple of noise filters to make it smooth like the voices of the other singers. Secondly, he could go off-key really bad. You have to listen to the “Do Ustad” title song to see that.
I bring up “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” for the same reason that you like to bring up “man tarpat hari darshan” or “O Duniya ke rakhwale”. I have issues with Rafi fans who have a condescending view of these kinds of songs just because they don’t *fit* into the semi-classical category and are therefore not worthy enough to be considered as *songs*, inspite of the fact that they really test your voice control. For me, Kishore’s yodelling displays as much voice control as does Rafi’s rendition of semi-classical songs, if not more.
I would love to see any of the other singers yodel with the precision of Kishore. Now, it’s one thing to just make your voice crack all over the place, which many people do and call it yodelling. Kishore, on the other hand, had this absolutely UNCANNY ability to yodel with wonderful precision.
You know how people talk about basketball players and their ability to “turn on a dime” referring to their ability to maneuver and suddenly come to a stop without losing control – that’s what I think of when I listen to that.
We talk about Kishore not having a classical base, but one of its most important parts, knowledge of and mastery over “sur”, Kishore had. If you’re going to yodel, you still need to do it in tune, without the pitch spraying all over the place.
Smitha,
regarding post 1478,
Thanks, I enjoyed Sonu’s antics. Quite entertaining. In any case, Sonu is a very good singer himself. Maybe he could have pulled off the “aake seedhi lagi” song. I don’t know.
But I would like to see him try the whole song in one continuous sequence along with all the “antics” that Kishore pulled off in both the male and the female voices.
SPB is also a very good singer himself, but it’s immaterial whether he considers Rafi as God himself. I don’t see how that has any bearing on this issue, unless you want to go back to using claims from other singers/musicians to *prove* a point.
Mr.Arghya:
Cool it. I have not started taking it by heart. I have only applied ‘certain’ parameters that one must be employing while comparing the singers. Let me also ask you this. “Has Kishore performed any ‘taans’ or ‘muhkris’ while singing ‘Haan yuhi’ which SPB couldn’t replicate?” or “Has SPB gone off-scale and/or off beat or does he yell at high notes and/or display lack of clarity and definition in voice at low notes?”
Mr.Bose:
You wrote:
‘And, yes, I believe that, technically, there is very little to separate Rafi and Kishore’.
My reply:
Fair enough; and I don’t believe that.
You wrote:
‘Take “chal uD jaa re pa.nchhi” by Rafi. Observe that a version by Talat exists. Though Rafi’s version is better: on the whole, and especially in the concluding alaap, the surprising thing is how well Talat has sung it. He comes close to Rafi on the whole and introduces nuances that are missing in the Rafi version.’
My reply:
Quite right. Talat was an amazing singer. As I wrote earlier, Talat is one, along with Manna Dey, who could be considered as a worthy rival to Rafi when it comes to ‘singing’ in HFM.
You wrote:
‘And I instinctively *leave out* singers who do not display a high degree of vocal control combined with range and versatility when we talk about the best. Therefore, Mukesh, Hemant, MK, and Talat do not come into the conversation much.’
My reply:
Why do you have to leave out these 4, especially Talat and MK? What could Kishore do that these 2 couldn’t when we speak about ‘singing’?
For instance, Talat at his commercial peak had a vocal range of about 1.5 octaves and Kishore had a similar vocal range at his own commercial peak. Talat could express romance, sadness and exuberance very well. Most importantly (speaking for you) Talat didn’t really go off-scale or off-beat nor did his voice texture and amplitude vary thru his vocal range.
Mr.Arghya:
You wrote:
‘SPB is a great singer, but lets not bring him in the same caliber of Rafi or Kishore’.
My reply:
SPB is in not in the calibre of Kishore. He is above it. He matches Kishore sur for sur, taal for taal and surpasses him in his ability to sing semi classical songs and has a huger vocal range (2+ octaves to Kishore’s 1.5-1.75). If you think Kishore is superior, prove it.
You wrote:
As for “Aake seedhi lagi”, the question is not of “whether anyone could do it or not” it is about “whether anyone else could have brought the same impact”??
My reply:
What impact did that song make? I am not aware of any, except that Kishore fans always prop it up in their ‘war’ with Rafi fans.
Smitha…
SPB is a great singer but not at all a considerable “force” on national level… Hemant Kumar is worshipped in Bengal and I myself have a big protrait of Hemantada in my house, put by my father- a true devotee of Hemantada…
Regional singers are great, but their appeal is confined to a certain segemnt, nothing to show them down, of course,, SPB tried his luck in National level, RDB also helped him a,lot, so did Laxmi-Pyare.. But, as RD said in one of his last interviews” After Kishoreda, I found SP Balasubramanium to be the most talented among all male voices, but unfortunately his typical accent and actors not liking his voice made me stay out of him even though I wanted to work with him”…
SPB is a great singer, but lets not bring him in the same caliber of Rafi or Kishore or to prove any point for or against them… They were singers capturing the heart of entire India irrespective of region, religion and all!!
As for “Aake seedhi lagi”, the question is not of “whether anyone could do it or not” it is about “whether anyone else could have brought the same impact”?? I remember a RD retro show many years back in 2000 called “Yeh shaam masatani” where SPB and Sudesh bhosle sang “Ek chatur naar” and in spite of all their comic efforts on stage, the magic could not be recreated!!
My intention is not at all to hurt SPB’s fans!! He is a multiple national award winning singer and has a huge fan following and a living legend.. But to show him to undermine someone like Kishore is just too much!Even if SPB sings in 1000 voices at a time, the magic could never be recreated!
Mr.Bose:
If you think ‘aake seedhe’ et al are the songs to rate a singer’s calibre, and ‘no one’ could even dream of singing them, then please watch this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQuuZrFaeE
If you want more such antics (I’m not sure if this is the right term), I can give you dozens. There is a singer named S P Balasubramaniyam who does these stuff in his sleep and he considers Rafi simply ‘impossibly perfect’.
well, what I have to say is something that has nothing to do with kis da and not intended to any person in particular but its all about,,,,esp to kishore kumar fanatics` whom I don`t concider fan,,,,,,in many talk page or in comment page,,they keep on saying kishore is better than Rafi for kishore is spontenious and Rafi do riyaz,,,,what rubbish! someone,,over this talk page had inquired to kishore fan-atics that ,”Rafi was so poor with economic condition of family and kishore much richer why didn`t kishore da had musical training or if he had no money for that”,,and another point raised was,,,,”did he still need training after giving numerous playback,”,,,well, I admit its our own ego that let us ask such question,and i apologize for it though its not my word,and don`t mean even a bit of it for I love kishore da as well,and I strickly want to end this hatred talk that the person whom I like is better and whom u like is worse,,,yet I`m sorry as I quoted them,,,but what I want to clear that no matter if u are officially trained with music or not u have to sing in RAAGA,,,and it is this raaga accompanied by sargama, bhava (emotion) and rasa(essence or melody) and naada(sign of virah) flavoured in divinity that make song masterpiece,,,and they call training,,is something that can be called realisation of these aspects before giving it to other,,,this is what Indian sprituality all about,,it says first u realize then teach or spread,,,thats what persaon like Rafi saab do,,,,Rafi saab is as spontenious as anyone else,,yet he did riyaz all the time even for the song gulabi aankhe he riyazed whole night without sleeping on his terrace and so is the song chal mere bhai of naseeb,,that he told to Amitabh bac`n that he didn`t sleep whole night for this song,,,,does it not tell about his greatness,ther is a song,by composer Ravi,,,,ye zulf agar khul kad bikhar jaye to achha,,on Radio Ravi said,,this song was so tough that Ravi could not make out how it could be sung as it don`t have ending word like achha hai,achha hota etc its simply bikhar jaye to achha…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLB833QEMLY and Rafi sang so sponteniously that mus dir couldn`t blv his ear,,,,there r numerous incidence in which quite spontenious even to toughest composition,,,and as far as feminine song is concerned one song come to my mind out of Rafi`s treasuers that lata would have sang as no male had sang this type og song before Rafi saab listen to this song sajan sajan pukarun`, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLgpiMdCtOk ,,but unlike aake sidhi lagi of half ticket, is not a comedy but highly emotional romantic song, now watch word…..
No matter,if you no matter if u know anything about gravitation or not ,,if u walk u walk under the law of gravitation,,similarly,,if u know classical training or not if u sing u have to sing in Raaga
Manish:
It is all in good spirits; I didn’t literally mean what I wrote about ‘wrath’ et al. Please rest assured I am not ‘hurt’ or anything.
I suppose my link in the pevious post wasn’t functioning. Here is another link to the same song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0VAAIzY02I
See the difference in the voice character in the lower notes (the very beginning) and the higher ones (eg.1.50).
Here is another song (a very good one at that):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeCh08II2Cc
Watch out for the part when Rafi switches between low-notes and mid notes rapidly (1.57 to 2.06 fo instance). The slightly differently-textured voice at lower notes adds its own charm to the rendition.
Surajit A. Bose
I personally feel Smitha is technically more intelligent and had better understanding of music than all of us present over here in this talk page by recent few weeks,,,,so Smitha would answer your post in a better way,yet I admire you,,and have tremendous respect for Arghya and Manish ji,yet its a public talk page I want to clear to every one something on my front,,,,however who am I make any statement…..but….
Mr. Toufique
Thanks for finishing the discussions in a happy note!! Appreciable indeed..
I think, genuinely, and even in this forum I have said so on many occassions, that SDB really did not think too much of Kishore as “a singer” before “Aradhana” happened.. Honestly, if you see his distribution of songs you would know the difference.. And he is right in saying before Aradhana, Rafi indeed was his “first serve” and Kishore “second serve”.. In Aradhana, he used both the serves and second serve clicked.. nothing to disagree here and nothing much that interview brings here..
Post Aradhana, the distribution is amazing!! Earlier there were only “Dukhi man mere”, “woh dekhe to unki inayat” or “Mohabbat ka chhota sa ek ashiana” for his second serve, but now??
“Khilte hai gul yahan”, ” Kaise kahe hum”, “Duniya o duniya”, “Dil aaj shayar hai”, “Jeevan ki baghiyan”, ” Tere mere milan ki yeh raina”, “Tune hume kya diya zindagi”, “Badi sooni sooni hai” songs which would have easily gone to Rafi, had he not “regained his confidence” on Kishore…. And for him there was no “first or second serve” after Aradhana, there was only one service!!! and he was hitting aces!! Getting Filmfare award at the age of 68 is not a joke!! What was OP Nayyar, Anil Biswas, Naushadsaab doing when they were 68??(No hard feeling please, they were greats, only to prove how “adaptable”, “versatile” and “zealous to work” SD was),… He composed “Bye bye miss good night” when he was 69!! When he died at the age of 70, he was bogged down with film offers!! “Mili”, ” Deewangee”, “Tyaag”, ” Arjun Pandit”, “Barood” all released after his death! Even his genius son had only one posthamously release!!
SD had his preferences and understanding properly… For Rafi, he was “soft” and “silky” and for Kishore he was “vibrant” and “trendy” but all the times “very melodious” and never compromising on that aspect…
I liked Surajitda’s one comment about “methodic approach” of Naushadsaab… Definitely, that was the reason for him not coupling with Kishore,, I dont have any problem,, I hope he had a great time with Kumar Sanu in “Daddy se poochh lena” and “Maal hai kya re zara dekh le”,,, Ohhh!!
Mr. Arghya,
I think there is a big difference between anecdotes and facts. (relatively) i dont care much abt what naushad or op say abt rafi, but i do care abt wat salil says. and SD was very close to Kishore (may be his mentor/guru), so his remark counts. i did not want to try to start an ‘anecdote-war’.
i posted the naushad interviews, because i thought music lovers might enjoy them. he is the only music director who talked about saigal quite often and positively(unlike another great anil who said that saigal was not his kind of singer). and i remember in one post u said that naushad scrapped the kishore song he recorded. its not true, the producer did that. even naushad had some appreciations for kishore too – ‘he was very quick at learning the song’.
i know abt bhimsen joshi’s comment. and for me its not surprising at all. if kishore were a classical singer, my prediction is that we would have got another bhimsen joshi. their voices are (inherently) pretty similar.
i enjoy the discussion. hope it would remain lively in the future as it is now.
Contd. from the previous post.
Kishore is somewhat different. Kishore, like most artists, hated rehearsals and practice. This is very well known and was the cause of headaches to so many MDs. OPN, in an interview in 2003, reported how he was so exasperated with Kishore’s antics that he gave the song “Man mora bhanwra” to Rafi. I can provide the link to this interview, if anybody wishes. And he didn’t give this song to Rafi because he thought Kishore cannot sing it, which is the way many Rafi fans think was the case. If Kishore was not in the mood to sing a song, he just *bunked* the recording or refused to continue. This doesn’t reflect well on his professionalism, but the result more than made up for it. When Kishore sang a sad song or a happy song or comedy song or even a rare devotional song (the one in “Door gagan ki chaon mein” with him and Manna Dey comes to mind), his tone is a transparent reflection of the underlying feeling. It’s almost like he feels what he is singing. That’s why it was very important for him to be *in the right mood* when it came to sing a song. Then the feeling came spontaneously, naturally. That’s why he would make odd requests – like the request for a real bicycle in the studio when singing “Dakhiya daak laaya” for KA, a request for a real paan when singing “Khaike paan banaraswaala” etc. He couldn’t care less about the pronounciation – singing “is tara” for “is tarah”, “khaab” for “khwaab” etc. For me, I therefore feel more emotionally connected to Kishore’s renditions because his tone reveals the emotional depth of the song. It moves me. That’s why, to me, he would have done fine even if he was given devotional songs. Because he would only have taken up the song if he really felt that devotion, and then the listener can just feel it.
Obviously, what I said above goes for Rafi too. But, in Rafi’s case, there are instances where, due to his polite and professional nature, he would go ahead and give his full effort to the song even though he doesn’t have that *feel* for that song. And that, to my mind, is sometimes evident.
Both were spontaneous in their own way, but Kishore was spontaneous in a zany, almost crazy way, in an eccentric way which is very hard to replicate. It has to be part of your personality. Further, Kishore’s spontaneity showed up in different ways. He loved making subtle unforeseen changes and added things that the MD did not originally incorporate. SDB and Asha reported separately in an interview how kishore *modified* “Aankhon mein kya ji” and how Asha was really kept on her toes by these last minute *additions* by Kishore, and she confessed that she loved that challenge. Nobody could dream of pulling off the “Half-ticket” song. And this too was a last minute decision when Lata didn’t turn up for the recording.
I have my own take regarding their contributions too. Sudip and Manish are right when they say that Rafi performed in more genres than Kishore did and therefore his artistic contribution, and his impact to the classes and masses through 3 generations, is greater than Kishore’s was, when viewed from that angle.
However, another valid criteria is the uniqueness of their contribution. I believe that having access to Kishore enabled MDs to compose songs that otherwise would not have existed at all, given the alternatives among the other singers.
Take “chal uD jaa re pa.nchhi” by Rafi. Observe that a version by Talat exists. Though Rafi’s version is better: on the whole, and especially in the concluding alaap, the surprising thing is how well Talat has sung it. He comes close to Rafi on the whole and introduces nuances that are missing in the Rafi version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zslcMFPf1k
OTOH, nobody else could even attempt songs like “Main hoon jhumroo”, “Aake seedhi lagi”, “Nakhrewali”, or even “Chala jata hoon” etc.
It all comes down to what your criteria are when measuring a singer (assuming that technical aspects are not the stumbling blocks).
Hi,
Having spent countless posts discussing music technicalities of Rafi and Kishore, I thought it would be worthwhile to post about their slightly different approach to singing and their accomplishments from a different angle. Obviously, all this is IMO.
I had earlier, in my post to Smitha, said that, for me, between the two, Kishore is the more natural and musically gifted. He had the flair that a genuine artist has, while Rafi seemed to work for his effects. I didn’t just mean that in terms of their technical capabilities, though there is a case for Kishore in that too.
The thing is when most people think of formal training in classical music, they immediately think of taans, murkhis, meends etc. That is not the first or most important part of classical training in vocal music because, like I already said, classical training does not necessarily make you do things that your voice is otherwise incapable of doing. So, by that token, Rafi is not particularly classically trained like Lata.
However, the more important benefit of classical training, at least in Hindustani Classical Music, is the focus on vocal drills or riyaaz that specifically addresses breathing techniques and focusses on different aspects of voice control. There are specific excercises to improve breathing techniques as related to singing, and vocal excercises to polish your voice in the high pitch and low pitch (mainly high pitch). Even a few yrs of training is beneficial in this aspect. And this, Rafi did have.
So, seen in that context, it is amazing how talented Kishore actually is. Obviously, Rafi is extremely talented too as you cannot be so versatile without a high degree of talent, but, in Rafi’s case, we will never know how he would have been if he had no training in music. In Kishore’s case, we already know. That he could do what he did with absolutely no training is really an inspiration.
Now, coming back to my point made to Smitha, I stand by my assertion and I believe that their approach to singing justifies my belief. For me, in general, Rafi is the consummate professional while Kishore is the whimsical genius. By this, I don’t mean that Rafi is not a genius or that Kishore is not a true professional. What I am focussing on is the aspect of their musical personality that is relatively the more dominant.
And this, to me, shows up in their singing. When Rafi sings a song, every syllable in the song is sung as it should be – given the lyrics, the situation, the mood etc. Every syllable and word in the lyric is pronounced perfectly. Further, the words are either whispered or sung with authority or sung floatingly/dreamily as the situation demands, as the mood of the song demands. The voice is modulated to suit the song. The degree to detail is just amazing, if not mind blowing. And I have never known Rafi to outright refuse to sing a song just because he *didn’t particularly feel like it*. Also, it’s well known that Rafi liked to rehearse himself to his satisfaction, and therefore didn’t like last minute changes to the tune or lyrics. A truly consummate professional.
However, to me, quite a few times, this approach didn’t particularly gel with me. This is just my opinion, though. Because, there were instances where I felt that there was more emphasis being laid on the *execution* – the pronounciation, the ‘adaegi’ of every syllable of every word, the voice modulation etc. – rather on the underlying feeling within the song. For me, this showed up mostly in his sad songs and his semi-classical bhajans under the baton of Naushad. To me, Rafi was at his most natural when singing for OPN and SDB. When he sung for them, the feeling infused into his songs was spontaneous and natural. Under Naushad, Rafi was too *methodical*. Keeping aside the joke that Kishore is not *worthy* to sing under Naushad, I think that *that* is the main reason for Kishore and Naushad not teaming up. Naushad was too *methodical*, too much *by the book*, to allow Kishore the freedom to put in his spontaneity in a song. SDB and RDB perfectly understood that and used it very well.
SJ, on the other hand, when using Rafi for Shammi Kapoor, made him sing the song in a way that was not the natural bent of his personality. And Rafi himself said that he felt uncomfortable singing those *too boisterous* songs for SJ. It was not very natural, and to me, it was somewhat apparent.
So, there were many cases, where Rafi’s songs didn’t particularly strike a chord with me, emotion wise.
More in my next post.
Manish,
Regarding post 1448.
I haven’t forgotten the *big* picture as far as singing and playback singing is concerned. :-). However, since even playback singers are first and foremost singers, I pay particular attention to singing technicalities first. And I instinctively *leave out* singers who do not display a high degree of vocal control combined with range and versatility when we talk about the best. Therefore, Mukesh, Hemant, MK, and Talat do not come into the conversation much. And, yes, I believe that, technically, there is very little to separate Rafi and Kishore.
However, I do agree about the *accomplishments* part – at least as put by Sudip. Rafi’s *accomplishments* in various genres or *impact* as related to the classes and masses is definitely superior to Kishore.
However, to be fair to Kishore, I think a little blame must also be put on the kind of music that was prevalent when Kishore was on top. The drop in the quality of music from the Rafi era – the late-50’s to mid-60’s – compared to the ’70’s, RDB notwithstanding, was a steep one. There is simply no comparision between Roshan, SJ, Naushad, OPN, SDB etc. to RDB, LP, KA etc.
In any case, having talked a lot about technicalities, I wanted to discuss about their approach to music and singing. I will do that in the next post.
Smitha,
I am terribly sorry if I was unclear. My last post was not directed at you or anyone specifically (notice when I particularly address someone I include their name!). No “wrath” at all or anything like that. I always appreciate your posts so I don’t know how you could even think otherwise! 🙂 Maybe I need to re-examine my posting style to see why they come off too strong sometimes. Last time I got misunderstood by poor Vipul (about Mukesh – I always appreciated his posts), then Savita, then Surajit (he thought I wasn’t aware that these discussions are just in good nature), and now you. I apologize. First of all, I always welcome differing opinions. That’s one of my silly habits where I get bored with too much agreement. Truth is I agree, more or less with your post on Salil-Rafi. Maybe I got too aggressive in trying to make things sound positive. Why should I be upset with someone else’s beliefs? They have a right to believe what they wish. I always tell my correspondents on the internet never to take things personally. I happen to be a big SJ fan but a lot of times hear people call SJ cacophonous. I never take it personally and in fact I have such great, true confidence and admiration for SJ that I laugh off such claims. I ran across someone who believes both Rafi & Lata are not very good singers. I wasn’t upset but had a good laugh.
Please Smitha, absolutely feel free to express anything you wish! I respect your views and always find them logical. Furthermore, you don’t need anyone’s “approval” or anything like that to do so. It’s fans like you and everyone else that make this site and the discussions and everything else a success. This site is not owned by any particular poster.
My main issue issue is not so much what Salil – Rafi themselves but at the concept of burying a truth. This was certainly not directed at you. That’s what Raju Bharatan has done and its perpetuated via hearsay. I will elaborate further on this later when I have some time. In the meantime, please accept my apologies for any misunderstandings. I have learned a lot from your posts and appreciate the songs you have shared. That is my number 1 reason for participating in these debates. Thanks so much!
O and btw – please call me just Manish! That works fine. No need for the title or anything like that 🙂
– Manish
Mr.Arghya:
You haven’t grasped what I wanted to convey. I wasn’t speaking about the ‘fame’ or ‘recognition’ when I said “Rafi’s songs usually become Rafi’s songs”. I was rather speaking about the liberties that Rafi used to take with the songs. Infact I have reasons to believe that this is one of the reasons why Salil relatively avoided Rafi. I don’t want to elaborate it here because Mr.Manish has already given me a piece of his heart and I don’t want to invite his wrath (or yours by the way) again. Let me repeat it again. I am not someone on the ‘other side’ teaming up with S-J, OPN, Naushad, Chitragupta etc. always on war with the team of Salil, SDB,RDB,AB and you know who. AND Salil is one of my all-time favourite MDs. I don’t really care whether he had a heart of gold or not. I can boldly say that he had a ‘musical heart’ made of 24 carat gold.
someone commented that rafi fan try to make Rafi a saint,,,i want to ask him if a saint can be created by mere discussiuon,,,its the same conciousness of God that works in everyone with the revealness of cosmic powers only the difference is if we preserve our life achievement to ourselves or dedicate it to God,,well,as far as I could make out Rafi`s personality he was a man who dedicated his life effort to God but never rested even a moment to his commitment or riyaaz,,,I feel that reaction to Mr Nassir`s post that created a storm over here is almost over yet I analyze the need of a bridge of undersatanding between the both sides,,I was to share a bengali story but browser error made my post incomplete,,,where one scholar known as keshab keep on making scriptual and scientific statement that god don`t`t exist to Ramakrishna in public,,,sri Ramakrishna appriciated each and every word of keshab and answered,,,unsignificant,illiterate person like me can be born out of itself but such a logical intelligent person like u(keshab) can never be born with out god`s grace hence,,now I`m more than 100% sure that god exist”,after that day keshab became Sri ramakrishna`s divotee,well, is it a insult to kesab,no not atall,its just natural,,,, there is pshycology about rafi fan that kishore fan don`t want to understand,,,they feel like defeated when someone tells them Kishore admired Rafi as person internally,and Rafi as a singer openly,,,,,as for me only good at heart can admire other,,,the tea inccident happened in kolkata where kishore da broke down to tears by Rafi sahab`s modest act,,,,can any ordinary human being have such realisation like that of kishore da,,no one is kid over here,,we have seen modesty every where ,talks of scripture,moral lesson every where,, but only shrine with heart can get it,,,Rafi fan has no point in hating Kishore,,and other than kishore da`s wonderful voice,its Kishore da`s admiration for Rafi saab,,that make kishore da hero in other side as well, its like,,,,for eg,,paramjeet commented somthing that Arghya don`t appriciate completly,,,but arghya praised paramjeet as he had love for someone whom arghya loved,,,,similarly, but in much clearer form Rafi fan always love kishore da in this context but why don`t kishore da`s side don`t take this part of story,,,as far as ” who said what ” is concerned,,I try my best to keep it away from my dsicussion yet,,I see whenever kishore da commented on Rafi on record or out of record,,because of the situation or context,,,,,he mostltly commented on Rafi a singer,,,,,even though he had more respect for Rafi a person,,,similarly,,when media before 70s never wanted asked Rafi saab about kishore da,they rather made Rafi speak about other contemporary singer of that era,,,no way manna de is superior to rafi saab in anyway,Rafi is better than maana de in all respect,for they were there to make play back not to show classical,yet who can forget Rafi`s famous statement,,,,”chahe duniya meri geet sunti ho par main manna de ki geet sunta hoon”,,,in 80s`s Rafi saab `s wife is recorded admitting that Rafi sahab never used to play his own song at home rather played kishore,,lata, asha at home but she later added that after Rafi saab death the family had stopped listening to radio,,,,,when rafi saab is concerned why should he keep on comenting anyone or prasie anyone as he never critisized anyone,so smiply he was not so vocal,,,,or as Rafi kishore chemistry is conrned its simply quite expressive in picture given above,,where both have haapy moments and later Rafi self aborbed and kishre eye saying all about his feeling for Rafi,….
Smitha
//a Rafi song becomes a Rafi song, not the MD’s song. //
If this comment of yours is with respect to Salil Chowdhury( I am sure it is), you are definitely lack of knowledge about Salilda then,.. Salilda’s early compositions, which were made from Young Poet Sukanta Bhattacharya and sang by Hemanta Mukhopadhyaya(Hemant Kumar) were stepping stones towards making Hemant an evergreen singer,, They are till today, remembered as Hemantda songs only- “Runner”, ” Abak Prithibi”, “Gayer Bodhu”, “Thiknana”- all composed by Salilda and sang by Hemantda in their IPTA days are still known as Hemant songs,, Salil never did any propaganda to prove his contributions towards them!!
Lata’s songs composed by Salilda are very much of Lata,, Many people dont know the original composer of “O sajna barkha bahar aayi” or “Aja re pardesi” even today… Do you mean to say Lata was shadowed down by salil??
Do you know in 1978, Salil and Hemant helped Kishore in music arrangement to complete an album of 15 Rabindrasangeets which even considered to be a breakthrough in Rabindrasangeet rendition… You wont find them in the 30 songs database of Salil-Kishore… They are just like those “thankless” jobs salilda used to do for the ones he admired… According to him-” I only saw Kishore’s dedication towards work during those Rabindrasangeet recordings,, Even though it was okayed, he used to go for retakes.. so much of money were wasted but Kishore was persistent in achieving perfection because they were Rabindrasangeets”,, Even today, if you see that album on store, you will only find Kishore and Rabindrasangeet but no acknowledgement of Salilda(I think Hemant was acknowledged later)…
If he had wished, he could have very well commercialized himself but preferred not to,,, He still had many assignments and unused tunes with him at the time he decided to go back to calcutta,,,
You cannot undermine an artist without knowing about him only because he did not work extesively with your favourite artist,, I never say such comments about Naushad or Roshan, although there are if anyone wants to.. Anyways…
Toufique Sir..
Why so many anecdotes?? Your own point gets covered under the blanket with so many links and interviews!! I have sooooooo many of them, but this is not a forum to show “who has said what”,,
Talking about Bhimsen Joshi, let me preserve his comments for Kishore on many occassions… Dont want to again create an “anecdote” war here! This forum was having wonderful discussions, let us stick to discussion front only.. My honest opinion though,, it is a democratic forum, you can go ahead anyways..
Mr.Toufique:
It is great of you to provide these links. Thank you so much. I will surely be back with my 2 cents on some of these songs and on the low pitched singing of all those greats you have mentioned.
Mr.Manish:
Please believe me, I am not trying to sell negativity here. I was simply stating something which according to me is true. Please also believe me, I am one of the greatest admirers of the great Salil and I have absolutely no issues with the fact that he didn’t make greater use of Rafi’s amazing vocals. In a way he did the right thing, for more often than not, a Rafi song becomes a Rafi song, not the MD’s song.
I did not make that post to argue that Salil’s favorite was Rafi. Who Salil thought was the best or who was his favorite is not important to me. I was just trying to clarify (IMO) the “artistic difference”. I don’t believe in the negativity when discussing Rafi & Salil or looking at their output after 1965. I look upon the two together very positively, especially given their success together. I will elaborate later when I have a chance.
Naveenji, out of 30 songs of Kishore for Salil, 11 are for him only as hero:
Naukri: 3 songs
Musafir: 1 song
Half Ticket: 7 songs.
And they were majorly “active” as a combo between 1971-1980, when number of films Salil was doing were also low.. Also, 70s Salil was doing music for movies with non-mainstream superstars like Anil Dhawan, Kabir Bedi, Vinod Khanna, Vujay Arora, Amol Palekar etc.(leaving “Anand”) whereas in the 50s and 60s he was in the movies of Dilip Kumar( Madhumati, Musafir), Raj Kapoor(Jagte Raho), Dev Anand(Maya), Sunil Dutt(Chhaya).. There was a strange shift for him after 70s.. I till date, could not recognize who was the actor singing such a beautiful, complex chord progressioned song of Kishore for Salil-” O meri pransajni champavati tu aaja”… No wonder, gems remained hidden!
I know salil made several comments on several singers. but those comments were absolute, not relative. in one interview in the Anandalok, salil made a comparison between rafi and kishore. it was two weeks after kishore’s death. he said that voice is not everything. and kishore could have reached rafi’s level if he knew classical. i hope people who are in kolkata can find that issue and post it here. i have already posted sd burman’s comments. also rajesh roshan, on average who gave the best quality songs to kishore (even compared to rd, ‘on average’) still maintains that rafi and lata are the best. if u talk about voice, was there anyone better than saigal in lower notes? earlier i have posted naushad’s comments about saigal singing thumris for 2 hrs and reaching the 3rd octave. i would love to know how do u people compare aamir khan, bhimsen joshi and bade gulam etc in terms of lower note and i would love to know whom do u regard as the best (overall).
Here are the links of salil-rafi songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKiwAFsPckI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OwKWBMmkU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr7Z3VXGM7U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IQQZGZ39Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ3J9gMLyQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPxuNp_fVcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwI6qVhR73E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJShfdr4TCQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfedSbuOos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlEEuNw-Kwc
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c8f8f20b-85e0-4a63-bb76-a10870859ec4/Gul-Khile-Yeah-Na-Khile—Md.-Rafi-and-Samshad-Begum-Duet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2G7FyP0uk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pju7H-3ObB8
http://www.esnips.com/doc/969b6669-13f9-4822-9611-807dd2d0d77d/Jangal-Mein-Mor-Naache—Madhumati-1958—Mohammed-Rafi
http://www.esnips.com/doc/9f1bba04-126b-4736-b5fa-274e6148da88/Koi-Soneke-Dilwala-Koi-Chandi-Ke—Md.-Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHXwsf47aI
could not find the links of these songs:
Awaz: bhor hui panchhi nikle
Tangewali: tere nainon ne jadoo dala (solo)
tere nainon ne jadoo dala (duet with lata)
Ref Post 1453,
Manishji, I have read in a few HM interviews that Dharam paji was late and did not turn up on time for Sa Re Ga Ma song in Chupke Chupke. So they went ahead with the Amitabh parts and Dharam’s parts were abridged.However I don’t know if they had retained the longer recording of the complete song. Nonetheless it is a great Rafi-Kishore duet with Kishore-Amitabh ending up with the larger chunk.
Argyaji, your post 1458 is very reasonable. It is very unfortunate that Salil didn’t render Rafi’s services after 65-66. On a side note it is also unfortunate that Naushad didn’t Mukesh for almost 2 decades after Andaz and Khayam waited for a several years before he came back with Kabhi Kabhi. I think commerically Salil was not much in the reckoning after early mid sixties till early seventies when Anand and some other movies like Mere Apne ,Rajnigandha made some inroads. Except for Anand these were not big blockbusters or so yet the music made a good aesthetic impact. His second coming in mainstream and alternate hindi cinema came to an end around 74-75 itself. After that there isn’t much (expect for a few exceptions ) that captures the mind-share although he was active for a long time. His not using Rafi in a nice musical like Anand or Rajnigandha or Choti Se Baat is something a Rafi fan may miss but no one (or only very few) would regret their not coming together for much of Salilda output after 75. As far as Salil Kishore equation goes , Kishore should have sung a dozen or so songs for his own movies with Salil, does the number 30 include the songs Kishore sang for Salil for his own films.
Sorry for the nitpicks.
Thanks
Naveen
Mr.Arghya& Mr.Manish:
Let us face it. Salil wasn’t too fond of Rafi, professionally. If someone decides to go deep into the Salil-Rafi outputs, he/she will find that whenever Salil went to Rafi it was out of compulsion than free will. Either the hero of the film demanded Rafi or the producers demanded him or the composition itself demanded him.
For example, one can’t expect Talat or Mukesh singing for street urchins. Neither Mukesh nor Talat nor Manna Dey could sound so dramatic at the high notes of ‘toothe hue khwabon’. Maya solos would have been just as fine in Talat’s vocals but by the early ’60s Talat wasn’t too salable and Dev Anand would have objected to Talat singing them. ‘Dil tadpe’ would most probably have gone to Kishore had it been composed in ’75 and not ’65. Salil needed a strong voice at lower notes and he probably wouldn’t have been too confident about Kishore at that point of time.
Why Rafi was not Salil’s singer (just as he was not Anil Biswas’ singer) is quite an interesting question. One can float numerous theories on it. I can provide a few of my own, but not now.
But Mr.Arghya, Salil’s observation on Mukesh isn’t exactly contradictory; is it? Can we interpret it as ‘Mukesh has the best voice but his vocal and/or mood range is limited’?
Manishji
Thanks for your kind words for my article.. By “artistic difference” I did not mean only the Maya incidence which happened in 1961(there was, certainly, artistic differences there).. In totality for Salil and Rafi- the “artistic difference” applies,,, You are true, the songs of “Chand aur sooraj” and “Poonam ki raat”(perhaps the last time Rafi worked with Salil) are just stunning,, As with all the singers, Salil’s productivity with Rafi was also whoppingly high with all the 20 songs timeless.. I like the Chhaya song “Ya kehde hum insaan nahi” or that duet with Manna in “Usne kaha tha” or the soulful “Toote hue khwabon ne” or “Koi sone ke dilwala”- they were all stunning!! But there was a basic ” artistic difference” always, as the major chunk of the work with Rafi for Salil lies between 1958-1965( I mean as many as 16 songs!!), balance 4 were pre 1958 “Do bigha zameen”, “Aawaz” etc… Salil was active as a music director in Bombay upto 1980 after that he settled down in Calcutta and restricting his assignments to Bengali movies, telefilms, documentory or non filmy “adhunik” songs,, So, his “active period” was same as for Rafi in bombay-1980! Whereas, from 1966-1980, in 14 years, he never went to Rafi,, Now, that is what is “artistic difference”! But, he had good respect for Rafi… Close assocaites of him clarify “Hemant Kumar as Salil’s most favourite male singer”,, Salil once said ” if God decides to come down to earth and sing, he would sound like Hemantda”… He was a big time admirer of Manna(with whom he worked most among male singers- 64 songs), Mukesh( 26 songs, he had contradictory statements for Mukesh though) and Kishore (30 songs, lots of good comments),, But except once or twice here and there, he did not have “too much to say” about Rafi,, He could have easily found any song between 1966-1980 to hand over to Rafi with his relationship with all the other 3 male singers in tact! But he chose not to, and that is what I meant by “artistic difference”,, Both were artistic genius, but somehat flowing in opposite directions! But i enjoy both of their flow, irrespective of the “direction”!! That is all..
Regarding his “contradictory” statements to Mukesh, once he said “mukesh has the best male voices among all in Bombay” and later after Kishore’s death he said “Kishore had a tremendous range and I never used to bother about which song to give to singers like Kishore and Lata like what I used to do with Mukesh”.. perhaps shows he had some confidence problem with Mukesh’s range!
But Salilda was always very diplomatic in his statements to the male singers, I think he never used to consider any of them coming any closer to Lata-his ultimate obsession, so, he was by and large “indifferent” as to who should be called “best”!! He has called four singers the “best” in his lifetime- Hemant, Mukesh, Kishore and Rafi- on different occassions , on different themes and perhaps, on different “moods”!! So, even I- a close admirer and follower of salilda- have stopped actually bothering whom he considered “the best” among males!!
Cheers!!
Mr.Manish:
Nice to read you liked ‘lo ek kali muskaye’ and other songs. I really enjoyed reading your post on ‘hum premi’ and other Rafi-Kishore duets. I would add my 2 cents to it later.
For now please listen to this song as an example of the change in texture that Rafi’s voice undergo when climbing from low-notes to mid-notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAFlBUhaVdM.
I shall provide more such examples when I have a bit of time at my disposal.
Savita,
If you want to see Rafi in an “angry mood” listen to Naag Devta from Shalimar. Especially the part towards the end – rarely have I heard Rafi sound like that and it’s tough to imagine given his personality 🙂
Audio could be better but this will have do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCXlORxzm8
Great composition by Pancham.
Manishji and others thanx for the song links,,,,I`m really thank full to manish ji for Rafi sahab low notes highly emotional link of Ashok kumar`s “itni badi duniya”,,,here as Amitabh bachhan is concerned,,,there is a song in a movie in which angry young is most angry as Big b is playing negative role here,,,,,,movie called parwana,,those who think rafi voice is not suited for this angry young man plz comment on this song duet in which kishore kum and rafi saab both performing very sharp while Rafi saab is Young Amitabh bachhan`s killer voice,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3o7FQe4Nbw&feature=related
this was published in the filmfare magazine in november, 1975 (SD died in 31 Oct, 1975).
http://www.downmelodylane.com/article_sdb_final_touch.html
“Tennis is one game that requires you to be extra alert”, he use to say. “It helped keep my reflexes sharp. It taught me that in music as in tennis, there are two ‘serves’. If the first ‘serve’ fails, in the second you do not tryt something so flashy. Sometimes my first ‘serve’ click – as in ‘Hum bekhudi me’ and ‘Kya se kya ho gaya’. At other times, the second ‘serve’ came into play. In Aradhana I tried both serves – Rafi and Kishore. This time the second ‘serve’ click. I had always had Kishore in reserve. Now he became my main singer.”
“Aradhana may have mark my comeback, but the music of Guide remains my pride and joy” he mentioned. “The film’s theme offered me maximum scope. I found no limitation and I had our two best singers: Lata and Rafi.”
Someone else had commented about Sa Re Ga Ma from Chupke Chupke. This brings up back to reason 2. The film version is 149 seconds and does not have the dialogue between Rafi & Kishore. Out of that, Rafi sings by himself for only 15 seconds and another 46 seconds with both him and Kishore singing simultaneously. Kishore sings by himself for the other 88 seconds. Of course Kishore is going to have a greater impact! This is like saying Rafi outdid Kishore in “Parda Hai Parda Hai”. O sure but we all know why! I can hardly call Sa Re Ga Ma a duet. Nevertheless, I loved this song on the Rafi – Dharam and Amitabh – KK pair. It’s my favorite movie of all time too and the rest of the score is outstanding.
O btw for convenience sake here’s the link to the Parvarish song. For some reason I never get tired of watching the video / song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXZ1kkyqbo
I don’t use Rafi – Kishore duets to compare the two for several reasons (1) Those duets don’t necessary bring out the best qualities of either singer. (2) Singers are limited by their parts. For example, in “Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe”, Kishore was limited by having to sing for Amitabh’s character. (3) Songs like “Amar Hai Shatki” come at a time when Rafi (or Kishore in other songs) is not at his best.
Someone mentioned that Kishore was better than Rafi in Parvarish? How so? I know this is a subjective opinion but I can still appreciate that if you elaborate on your opinion. In the song, Amitabh’s character is angry and cynical. Towards the end of the song he shows some devotion to his father so we have a total of three emotions that the character portrays. Vinod Khanna is playful and smiling around to Amitabh. After all, he’s played a game with his entire family by being a criminal in secret. He’s proud and resolved rather than apologetic when Amitabh confronts him. He’s also a tough guy who says if you really want to make a big deal about this then on with it! So with Vinod we’ve got playful, outwardly cheerful, proud, resolved, tough guy, confrontational, and someone who is devoted to his parents. To verify what I am saying, just watch the expressions on Amitabh & Vinod in this video. Does Amitabh ever smile or really toy around like Vinod?
Needless to say, Kishore does full justice to Amitabh’s limited emotions. I love the sarcasm he adds in the end with “Arre Pyar Ke Dushman Hazaaron Mein Pehchaane”. Rafi displays that special talent of his and brilliantly balances and expresses the 7 – 8 different emotions convincingly and within a few lines. His clarity, fullness of voice, and excellent tonal quality are universal traits that allow him to suit an action hero like Vinod Khanna very well. These are traits that any hero (no matter what genre or era) would strive for. While Kishore’s voice sounds heavy and somewhat coarse for the angry Amitabh, Rafi’s voice sounds very melodious and silky yet strong thanks to his great tonal quality. Take out Rafi from the 70s and HFM would be on one leg. If Rafi weren’t around, who else could have rendered this song so well? Take out either Rafi or Kishore from this song and it would be less than half of what it is. It’s a very enjoyable song thanks to their chemistry and combined presence.