An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Even though I am a fan of both Mohamed Kumar and Kishore Rafi, I feel Kishore Kumar had an edge that, at any pitch, his voice doesnt loose the manliness. Almost, for any singer, when they go up, their voice will turn a little feminine. But, note Kishore’s voice. You will find the difference. Otherwise, Rafi, Kishore, TMS, KJY and SPB are all all-time greats in their own styles.
Mr Parmjeet–refer post 1597–thanks for your “positive” note. I thought of getting some good write-up /messages on Kishore’s songs. You have shown your true color by ridiculing some songs of Rafi sahab. Bye for good-that was my first and last post in this site…..
Continue your tirade against Rafi if that helps you in appreciating KK / other singers!!!. Let this article have more than one lac posts and your last written article on KK continue to be dated as of August 2009!!
All the best—one last word–Rafi sahab used to say ” aap sab mere gaane sunto ho lekin mein sirf Manna da ke gaane hi sunta hoon”; KK had only Rafi sahab’s photo in his home. All the legendary male singers had great respect & love for each other-it is we who keep harping on such silly issues.
Hope it ends here. Better download good songs. Try to listen to them
adarniya krishna sahab,
Yahan pe ‘Divine Voice’ karke bhi ek column hai jahan pe jaankaar log apni knowledge share karte hai.. Wahan pe aaiye, -ve se zyada +ve milega humko..
Kuchh bewakoof log milenge waise wahan pe jo KK-Amitabh ke kuchh gaano ko great bol denge( badi sooni sooni hai, aye tum yaad mujhe, tere mere milan ki yeh raina, rimjhim gire sawan, meet na mila, dekha ek khwab etc.), unko dhyan mat dijiye, apne points rskhiye aur ‘kisko pyar karoo’, ”sukoo sukoo’, ‘ lal chhadi’, ‘ dekhiye sahibon’ jaise great gaane se unko counteract kariye.. Koi problem nahi..
Aur haan, ek zaroori baat- wahan pe koi yeh nahi kehta ‘ What if Kishore had sung those songs’…hahahaha..
It was apt what Mr Siva had said. It sounds better like any good song. I found someone akin to my feelings – Listen to good Songs sung by anybody and be happy. Think of +ves in all. Leave the -ves. When the real persons had very warm feelings among themselves and mutual respect, why the listeners linger in qualms.
Dear Kishore friends,
This is my first post in this site although I keep writing now and then in the Rafi site. I hope you would not mind my intrusion here-I listen to songs by all the legends like Rafi, Kishore, Mukesh, Talat, Manna da ,Mahindra Kapoor but being an ardent Rafi fan he has a special place in my heart.
I find in your site there is a never ending comparison and talk about Rafi vs Kishore and not much articles or posts about the good songs and style of Kishore. What I want to convey basically is why this obsession with Rafi vs Kishore comparison and why not focus more on the subtle nuances of KK’s masterful renditions like “Mere Dil mein aaj kya hai”, Aaa Chal ke tujhe, Chookar mere man ko kiya tune, Dil aaj shayar hai gham aaj nagma hai, Phoolon ke rang se dil ki kalam se tujhko likhi, Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala, Kuch to log kahenge, Pyaar diwana hota hai mastana etc.. Hope from the list of songs I have listed out you would appreciate that I am also a Kishore fan , I can similarly list out my Mukesh favorites, Manna da’s Talat sahab’s etc…
The last article in this site is dated some 5 months ago!! Do Kishore fans do not feel passionate about his songs and style and like to write about such gems , few of which I have mentioned? Rafi fans like me would also like to read about some good articles about Kishore da’s unique style of singing that was so natural.
Hope you do not mind my comments–crux of the issue-please forget about the comparison for some time and keep writing something postive..
The most bewildering of the arguements I see here is that people keep saying Rafi was trained and Kishore was natural.
Ha Ha!
Could you create a voice like Rafi Saab by training? You got to have it naturally. Was it his fault that despite having a meager family income he persisted and got trained? It was the fault on Kishore Da’s part (just for the sake of making this point) if he did not take training despite it being at his disposal. So why blame a person for HIS hard work instead of appreciating it? It can happen only in India that you dislike a person because he did the things the right way.
I am forced to say on the contrary… If Allah had a voice, it would be of Rafi Saab’s.
Both rafi and kishore were legends in their own right.
The 50’s & 60’s rafi had influenced and the 70’s & 80’s kishore has influenced. Result : lasting impression continuing for decades with many musical fans.
IF ALLAH HAS A VOICE, HE SINGS LIKE KISHORE KUMAR.
…and people, don’t make email/ids (bots) and post nonsence about Kishore Kumar. We have already seen the trick in youtube and metacafe. Get a life biaatch!
Chilly billy jee,
In madhuban me radhika nache re, the alaap rendering singer was Ustaad Niaz Ahmed Khan, who was one of the most important Kirana Gharana vocalist of 20th century. I am not too sure, whether the great rafi could have been able to render the intricate taans in the manner which the ustad had rendered in the “beautiful composition” – madhuban me. Such taans require acute specialisation, which I feel, is possible only for classical vocalists who have advanced training and specialisation. It is for this reason the ustaad sahab might have been used by Naushad saab for the film Kohinoor. Rafi was surely limited in classical compositions having high range and intricate taans, however, he could create magical effect (with his voice) in other areas of such composition types (other than the taans & alaaps requiring higher technical ability)
However, plain melodious songs such as yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, chaudvin ka chaand ho, jo wada kiya woh, etc. (& many more) rafi creates a magical effect which easily mesmerises a listener.
Post 1587.
The content of the post and the signature in the end is good enough to justify why the writer chose a false name.. 🙂 Really tough to write with your own name belonging to a society where even constructive criticism is blasphemy and might end up giving quarantine from the society.
By the way, there is “Madhuban mein radhika naache re” also.
kishore da is a gem & if anybody says anything about his versatality then jst listen INA MINA DIKA, DUKHI MAN MERE, KABHI BEKASHI NE MARA, OM SHANTI OM, MERE NAINA SAWAN BHADO & TUM BIN JAAON KAHAN. The last song was sung by both KISHORE DA & rafi & audiance have given their judgement. The combination machoness & mildness was miraculous in KISHORE DA”S voice which makes him best from any other singer in the world. HE IS THE PRIDE FOR INDIA. UNKO KISI BHI SINGER SE KAM DIKHANE KI KOSHIS KARNA APNE DESH KA APMAN HAI. RAFI saab ke guzarne ke baad we apne stage show me unka gana gate the isse zyada mahanta ki misaal pure vishwa me kahin nahi milegi.
Chilly Billy sahab,
Madhuban mein radhika mein sabse mushkil akaratmak taan bhi kisi aur gayak se gawaya gaya tha. Is baare mein humare bhai bandhuein zyada charcha karte nahi.
Aur sudip ji ko boliye ‘pag ghungroo’ wala alaap nahi tha, sargam taan bolte hai usko.. Yehi to problem hai janab rafi bhakton ki, unko lagta hai unhe sab kuchh aati hai magar actually hai sab upar upar se.
sudip Says:
May 28th, 2007 at 1:37 am
6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.
I know I’m a little late but I only chanced upon this thread today:
I respect your knowledge on HFM but your above comment is incorrect. May I refer you to a song from Chacha Chaudhary, Hasna Gaana Mauj Manana in which MM was forced to use another singer for the alaaps as Rafi was unable to render it according to the MD’s specifications. There could be others too, but the above song was the first to spring to mind after reading your post.
PS I am a Rafian…
Arghya ji
A humorous post. I appreciate your keen sense of humour at the right point.
Ahmed kutty ji,
Please just do not try to showcase views that one wants to hear rafi song at last breath, or it is a must along with food, shelter etc. These are all exaggerated show pieces. I have seen some posts where in an argument took place between kishore fan and one ms. priya sanyal in rafi forum wherein the rafi fan calls rafi as god himself (nice to hear) and kishore fan replies that please do not call rafi a god and also please do not get excited and build tension, if you get heart attack, rafi cannot save you (even if you call him god or anything else). Really, a humourous reply – (laughs) When questions are raised against exagerrated praises – results are surprising (even if they are false).
Kutty ji – For the sake of only you, I too would like to argue as under and what will be your reply for this?
Have you heard Bhagavad Geetha of ghantasala ? There is no rendition equal to it – I can say frankly. And people hear the rendition even after death of a soul – because it gives the necessary solace and strength to face life. Why I said this, because you state that rafi’s songs are alive only upto the last breath of an individual, whereas ghantasala’s rendition of geetha takes the soul (both living as well as otherwise) even beyond death (because the message is such in that, if we are able to understand)
Next : Kishore’s philosophical songs on life and death give a nice message to individuals who are facing such undesirable periods in life – then what will be the conclusion.
In such cases, how can you simply conclude that rafi stands unmatched in contribution?
That is great, rafi ji is really unmatched as a popular singer but it has to be kept in mind that such “unmatching quality” cannot be at the cost of “other unmatching contributions” from other established legends as well. I hope you properly catch my point & stop making exagerrated comments.
Ahmed kutty sahab,
It is really a surprise you have posted here after a long time. Welcome sir. Defaming rafi sahab – Any geniune music lover had done that ? – can you show that – I can show people ‘claiming’ as music lovers defaming other singers (surprisingly without knowing “anything” about that singer) What is that ?
See the most matured comments by Mr. Krishna here – 1576 – wherein he states “none can devalue rafi, ghantasala – even if one tries to do it goes waste” – perfectly true – because I had seen one excellent comment of Mr. B Venkatadri in Rafi forum long back where in he states that if somebody passes any negative or degrading comment for them : it is like a blind man measuring the trunks of two elephants and saying something which he cannot see. I hope you have got the point of this rafi fan.
Why I have said this is because I wanted you to please understand that no genuine music lover passes any uncomfortable comment for any singer or artist – leave accomplished legends like rafi or ghantasala.
In my view, your post has chances for creating a debate which I think would not be correct my friend.
AHMED KUTTY ji,
Take my sincere congratulations for such a good post on the legend
Rafi sahab in this Kishore forum. I respect your views. You talked about quarelling on money and ladies with an indirect hint at our guruji- koi baat nahi..
Please remember sir, just like you have come in Kishore site and promote Rafi sahab, there might have been some Kishore fans also who had visited Rafi forum and said that Kishoreda is the best.. How much tolerance to their comments you guys have shown?
The members in Rafi forum are more experienced, elderly and active than the members in Kishore forum- the day you get the “tolerance” factor also in your kitty leaving apart the abusing and foul mouthing which we guys are currently doing, your forum will get more respect.
My twopence here.. And I have talked with many Rafians., Wont name, but last evening itself I had a talk with a great Rafian from Bangalore(you also know him), and he also shared the same feeling about the intolerance of Rafi fans towards the fans of other singers and he said for this reason he also has reduced his visits to Rafi forum.
I hope my points will be taken in a sporting way.. If you guys start abusing me again for writing this, then I think you guys can never change 🙂
when the songs of “aradhana”become superhits,one of the
companions of kk told that “kishoreda ne rafi saab ko chutti
kar dhiya” and the same time kishoreda slapped the guy
and told him “what you know about music?i am a fan of
rafi saab”.
i think this slapping by kishoreda is meant for each and
everybody who are trying to defame rafi ssab.
it is an interesting thing that during 70s panchamda had
given more chances to kishoreda than rafi saab and
it is rafi saab who got national award and filmfare award
for the same song “kya hua tera waadaa” for which the
music director was panchamda himself!
as far versatality is concerned no singer is near to rafi
saab.it is difficult ot believe that rafi saab sings “oh duniya
ke rakwaale” as well as “sar jo tera jukrayaa” for johny
walker.
it is difficult to maintain a decent life especilly if we are
in the field of art.rafi saab lead a decent life without
quarrelling for ladies or for money.
as far as fans are concerned nobody is there to match
rafi saab as his fans are treating him more than their
family members.eventhough the media had tried to
sideline rafi saab, the die hard fans of rafi saab are
trying their level best to keep alive rafi saab and his
songs.some of his fans even say after the basic needs of
human being such as food,clothing and shelter,rafi saab’s
somgs are a must.some fans says during their last breath
they want to hear the songs of rafi saab!
where we can see such a passion,such an affection,such a
dedication even forgetting their everything for the cause
of rafi saab.i think the motivation for “rafians” are from the
“diehard critics of rafi saab”.
Exceptions are there for every thing in life. So is the case with Kishore – Amit combo songs. Few songs can be named as done by arghyaji. Here I was comparing this combo with Kishore’s songs for other heroes. Somehow couldn’t like some. At the same time his songs for Rajesh khanna are really good. My last sentence is always – Listen to good songs sung by anybody. Be Happy. Songsters are few, listeners are many. Opinions are plenty.
Krishna ji..
You meant “lose of originality” as “dragging of voice forcing you to stay away”.. Your statement is still not clear. Do you mean there was a “lack of voice modulation”?? If that is the thing you mean, then also I would beg to disagree,, What better example of voice modulation can be given in the teaching of playback singing than “Chhu kar mere man ko kiya tune kya ishara”?? Do you feel that song was dragged in voice?? I sincerely dont think so. Then there is “Badi sooni sooni hai zindagi yeh zindagi”, where Kishore gives his voice a deep texture(rather than heavy texture which he generally did for Amitabh,looking at Amitabh’s own voice base and nuances) is very unique as very few people had that ability to sound “alcoholic melancholy” that way. His expression in grief in “Manzilein apni jagah hai” and ” Kisi baat par main kisis se khafa hoon”( both picturized on Amitabh at around the same time) has 180 degree contradiction.. 99% playback singers would have emoted those two songs similarly (same time, same hero, same theme and same alcoholic sadness), but Kishore made an awesome switch in expressions, one portraying “lack of company” and the other “lack of love”… This is Kishore Kumar for you-Krishna ji.. He is still a lesson to the playbackers,,
Now, if you mean “voice dragging” as to those songs which were fun and loud like “Mach gaya shor saari nagri” or “Khaaike pan banaraswala” or ” De de pyar de”- which also constitute a good share of Kishore-Amitabh combo, Krishna ji, this always happen to a successful singer-actor combo.. Rafi-Shammi-another successful combo- also had their fair share of loud songs thanks to Shankar Jaikishen in the late 60s.. Now, you may put it like this that “You love the loudness of late 60s more than late 70s ” or ” Kisko pyar karoon kaise pyar karoo is not loud for you but Are deewano mujhe pehchaano is loud” then also it is all right, provided you put a IMHO in a capital letter.
Regrading supremacy, even if we forget the commercial and populairty part of it, please visit the discussion forum of “Divine voice of devotional Kishore”- many things are being discussed there.
Thanks.
krishna ji..
supremes kaun hai? Kishoreda khud na hi supreme hai balki kaafi aur logon se behetar bhi hai,, krupaya hamare deivine voice topic ko dekhe… Kaafi achhi baatein ho rahi hai waha par.
Dear Krishna sir,
He loses originality? How and where? Please give suitable examples.
Regards,
Mast Mast
He loses his originality when he sings for Big B – I meant he loses his flair, voice drags forcing us to get away from listening. it is not the loss of mimicking I meant. Anyway they are the only numbers + very few I don’t like. There are many great songs of Kishore. But we can not compare with supremes.
Mr. M Krishna-1572 post.
You said ” kishore Kumar: His is unique talent. he is also good at mimicking. He loses his originality when he sings for Big B”
I think it is the prerequirement of a playback singer that he should sound like the hero on the screen and not like his original voice. That is why Kishore Kumar is unparallelled in playback singing. He could not only enact the mood and theme of a song but also the nuances of the actor on screen.. Amitabh, Dev Anand, Rajesh Khanna, Sanjeev Kumar, Randhir Kapoor- for all of them Kishore used to adjust his voice accordingly to sound like them or enact like them.. That is a very special quality Krishna ji, it is in fact the strength of Kishore and not drawback.
Some people say for the sake of satisfying their egos and their only point is to score a point in excess of others without validating their version.
Singers come and go, leaving listeners contesting under shadow.
Popularity is different from talent. All talented need not be popular and all popular songsters are not highly talented
Each era had a singer or singers. Each era had different taste. Awareness is on high as we move forward.
World noticed India’s presence lately, and started sharing Awards – Oscar for Rehman. We had great music directors in the past who thrived on classical scores which were audible. But none of them had scope for Oscars, as India was no where in the popularity charts / reckoning in the World then. But that doesn’t devalue great Music Directors of yesteryears.
Similarly none can devalue Rafi, Ghantasala – even if one tries to do it goes waste. At the same time we can’t underestimate Kishores of next generation to protect the sentiments of many listeners who do not try to accept the truth / reality.
My only point – Listen to good songs sung by anybody. Be Happy.
Mr. Srinivasan,
Thanks for your post. You have not read my posts carefully and I believe you have responded (in a state of hurried emotion). I request you to kindly read my posts carefully and respond please point by point. Otherwise picking up one point and arguing will lead no where – entire essence of a post has to be considered before arguing sir. Kindly refer post 1566 of Rafi Fan – a balanced one to some extent.
I request you to kindly see another feature in this forum – the divine voice of devotional kishore – an interesting debate is going on between rafi and another established accomplished legend – ghantasala. I hope you will catch the point.
Raj says:
“Most of the rafi’s songs were in only 2 octaves i.e. middle and higher octaves so rafi’s range was only 2 octaves and any average singer with a reasonable range can deliver 2 octaves easily.”
Sorry Mr. Raj, this comment of yours (among others) utterly exposes your bias. Are you trying to project Rafi as equivalent to “any average singer with a reasonable range”? I am not a music expert and do not know much about this octaves thing. But can you show me a song in 3 octaves that Rafi could not sing? The fact that he did not attempt such a song does not prove that he cannot sing it May he did not get such an opportunity.
Secondly, Raj’s argument that Yeshudas has a 3-octave range, so Yeshudas is better than Rafi, etc. is hopelessly wrong, even from my layman’s point of view. Can Yeshudas sing the famous Rafi numbers (O duniyan ke rakhwale, zindabad zindabad, subah na aayi, etc.) better than Rafi? Or for that matter, can Raj name any singer who has sung these songs better than Rafi’s orginals?
I liked Kishore Kumar as a talented singer. But he was ruined by the likes of RD Burman in his later years, and the crude numbers that he sang for Amitabh Bacchan in particular are best forgotten (oublic opinion be damned). I like Kishore’s older songs, in particular, the song Koi humdum na raha is one that I can never get tired of. What a talent wasted by Bollywood.
Mr Raj: To call Kishore a better singer than Rafi, to say that Kishore had a better voice as compared to Rafi’s (supposedly “female oriented” [???????– where the hell did this come from?]) voice, etc is pure garbage. Kishore was a great singer, but Rafi was the greatest amongst the greats. Nothing that anybody says can change my opinion.
1572- Mr Krishna
You are cent percent correct. Ghantasala is exceptional of all. He had a exceptional gifted divine voice which was the most majestic male voice, & was a celebrated music director, was a versatile classical musician, above all in mythological films none could challenge him. Even in extreme high pitches and low pitches he was exceptionally comfortable. Perfectionist.
Besides, his talent of singing padyams and sanskrit slokas, no body could match him. Virtually he was the emperor for nearly 3 decades with zero competition. His multi skills and divine voice ensured that no competition can exist, which continues even today. In 1944 when ghantasala entered madras (chennai) – over the next decade, all other existing singers packed off their luggage and left.
All others get diluted somewhere. Rafi, barring his melodious voice and singing talent, falls behind when comes to music direction or classical talent or majestic voice in comparison to ghantasala. Though classically trained, before ghantasala his talent pales.
Kishore voice was great, but again same issue – classical & melody wise he is next to ghantasala and rafi as well of course ( i prefer rafi over kishore in hindi) Even in music direction skills ghantasala stands ahead of kishore.
There are some similar songs by rafi and ghantasala such as kuhu kuhu in suvarna sundari and chal ud ja re panchi etc. wherein ghantasala easily envelopes rafi both in melody and presentation of songs. This was stated by rafi himself. Nevertheless, after ghantasala, I prefer rafi over kishore. Kishore is also good in some songs and I should believe that he sounds great in some songs. Finally, some songs like siva sankari of ghantasala or symala dandakam of ghantasala, which have been discussed in both rafi and kishore forums, I know of no indian singer even coming close. Those are really such type of real difficult compositions, challenging the best of exceptional singers. Of course, ghantasala renders them with ease, but when we try to sing them, gone case.
And in females lata ji generally scores, with p suseela coming very close to lata. In some songs, suseela appears beautiful to lata.
In my view, all other singers come after above singers, though each have their own limited talents
SPB – just OK
Jesudas – OK but no where above singers.
P B srinivas – good voice but high pitches etc. voice pales.
Manna dey – lack of strength in voice, though classically trained.
All others after the above singers.
it is my view, not to hurt any one’s feelings
Sonu Nigams, Kumar Sanus, Wadkars etc: They are also singers
SPB: He can sing at Low pitch, if one has to listen. High pitch he loses track. Best in mimicking
kishore Kumar: His is unique talent. he is also good at mimicking. He loses his originality when he sings for Big B
Asha: Exceptional Talent
Lata: No comments. Genius. better, Would have stopped singing after 1980s
Mannadey: Typical Classical
Mukesh: Melody king with lot of limitations in range
Talat: Wonder. he helps who need elusive peace of mind, sleep
Ghantasala: Perfectionist, Truly Great till his health permitted. His is called a perfect male voice. You can find him in Thesaurus. No parallel
Rafi: Ghantasala of Bollywood.
Ghantasala + Rafi: UNIQUE. I can’t dare naming others when we discuss on their singing
Hi All ,
Music is like food. Every person has different choice. There is no point fighting who is better. Rafi fans feel he is the greatest singer so does KK fans. There are some Indians who hardly bother indian singers and only listen Michae Jackson.
New generaton young boys like only KK (not kishore kumar but Krishna kumar Menon) and Sunidhi they are not ready to listen the Golden era (60 – 70 ) songs. As time changes people’s liking also changes. K.L. Sahagal was a greates singer many years back. People used to wait outside hotels, talkies to listen his songs. Today you will find hardly any farmish of his songs. After few years people will stop listing golden era songs because there will be big generation gap. New generation might love thick punjabi kind of voice (Sunidhi, Jaspinder Narula kind). I love old songs and I listen ‘Chaayageet’ on;y for old songs but one of my young relative says ‘ Band karo ye rone waale gaane’. See the generation gap !
So let instead of fighting let us listen the Good old songs and love all those artist who contributed to the music with their individual style. They all are different flowers of the music garden.
kishore kumar is the king of singing. he was a singer, musicdirector, lyricist, producer & actor. i can openly say rafi never stands in front of kishore. the difference catches in their duet songs. also ‘tum bin jaoon kaha’ is still a great hit in kishore’s voice. again kumar sanu,abhijeet, shaan&babul are better than udit narayan & sonu nigam. to prove it i’ll have to write an epic but kumar sanu has got an ausum voice. during his time nobody dared to compete with him. udit narayan came before kumar sanu in the music industry but when kumar sanu entered udit got washed away. hence kishore kumar is the king of music industry & kumar sanu is the prince.
dear fans,
great singers like mannadey,mahendra kapoor,
yesudas,spb,jayachandran are the opinion that rafi saab is the best.
these are their words:
mannadey – in indian male play back singers rafi is the best.i could be happy if i could achieve half what rafi achieved.in some duet songs,
even lataji’s voice is not matching with rafi’s voice.
mahendra kapoor- from my childhood i have accepted rafi saab
as my ustad.
yesudas – we will not get another rafi again and he is the cause of
thousands for their livelyhood.
spb – before entering into films my choice was gantasala and
after entering in films it is rafi saab.
jayachandran – rafi saab’s range is extra ordinary.surely it is
from the god directly.
lata mangeshkar – i am lucky that i could sing duet songs with rafi
saab than anybody else.singers like him will not come again and again.
these great personalities know what is music and who is the capable
singer and we have little knowledge about music are trying to project others as great singers who even cannot sing more than three types
of songs.
better than rafiji.
Anil ji, 1567
Do not go for diluted facts. Rafi was good in any number ? Not a correct reply to my post. My argument was almost all songs of rafi’s range was in 2 octaves and in those two octaves rafi is ok (might be low and medium OR medium and high only i.e 2 octaves – & not 3 octaves compositions i.e low , medium and high continuously like siva sankari number) Your argument about rafi’s strength is restricted to any of the two octave range. The voice (tempo level) is adjusted according to the song composition but on the whole the range cannot exceed the length of 2 octaves. You can confirm this from any established musician. Quote a rafi number composed in all the 3 octaves continuously from lower to higher octave – why is any rafi fan escaping from this question of mine – what about so called rafi fans having vast knowledge of rafi songs.
If a composition starts at pa note in lower octave and ends at highest sa note in highest octave – rafi would have failed. (any rafi composition in this range)
Rafi Fan ji,
Appreciations for some of your matured comments. Other singers which I have mentioned were equally great. I had remarked can rafi sing any tamil song similar to sounderrajan or malayalam song similar to jesudas or jayachandran or any telugu song nearer to ghantasala (rafi’s telugu songs are no where his hindi songs) – I again repeat pl. say Rafi is fine in bollywood, not in indian playback singing. The country has numerous talents which cannot be overlooked.
Rafifanji:
Rafi was strong just about anywhere, not only in the mid and upper octaves. I would be happy to explain to you in detail if you could leave your email id here or else we can debate in ‘mohdrafi.com’; may be in the ‘true voice’ thread.
Mr. Raj,
I agree with only few points of yours. With the exception of only Ghantasala, no other singer can come close to rafi. Rafi’s melody voice is above all singers. Kishore ahead of rafi – good comedy for enjoying. The names which you have mentioned K J Yesudas and SPB etc. they themselves regard rafi as the benchmark in playback singing. Even if you say the octave rendition strength, even if rafi was strong in 2 octaves, the presentation of rafi in those 2 octaves is ahead of all other singers. Your other point, siva sankari by ghantasala is indeed awesome and excellent, an exceptional number which perhaps no other singer could possibly render as ghantasala did, that is why I had remarked in one of the posts that I would love rafi (singing siva sankari) as a carnatic trained classical musician and how would that have been – indeed fascinating. True, Ghantasala was exceptionally great, he is like another rafi in indian playback singing.
Anyhow, there are numerous rafi numbers wherein, the singers you have mentioned in your post, could not even come close. PLEASE REMEMBER – NUMEROUS PLAYBACK SINGERS WHEN SINGING SONGS WANT TO SING LIKE RAFI. RAFI COMES TO MIND WHEN A SONG IS SUNG NOT KISHORE KUMAR. THAT IS THE GREATNESS OF RAFI.
My posts – 1558, 1561 & 62 – No rafi fan or rafi analyst has any answer. Usually this happens with rafi fans when true facts are spoken and they come up with diluted facts rather than replying straightly to the points raised.
Sid 1553..
I said “without subjectivity no one can distinguish between kishore and rafi”
and your second point //I do not agree that there is any singer in this planet(not even mr. sinatra) who can hold a candle(sorry for using your least fav word ) to Mohd. Rafi’s Romantic songs.// is subjective again..LOL..
Haldar sir,
Nice reading Pandit Jasraj’s comments. You see, he refers to the point I was trying to make in the other (divine voice….) thread. When people (who think they know music) speak about Maulkans they speak about ‘man tarpat..’ and when they speak about Darbari, ‘duniya ke rakhwale..’ comes into the picture. Would a typical classical musician appreciate the scenario? It is pretty natural for him to feel defensive and even insecure and he feels it necessary to bring into limelight the (so-called) shortcomings in the rendition of these songs. However people like Pandit Jansraj who have made it big with the masses despite Rafi/Manna Dey and filmi semiclassical numbers would have no such issues and they have crossed the shallow waters in the ocean of music so that they can appreciate what ‘Rafian’ singing is all about; some thing which people who are stuck with Saigal and ‘nada purity’ would never discover.
Dhaniram ji, – contd.. to my previous post
KISHORE’S INFLUENCE AND FOLLOWING IN 70’S WAS MUCH MORE THAN RAFI’S EARLIER INFLUENCE IN 60’S. THIS IS SUFFICIENT TO PROVE KISHORE’S EVERLASTING AND UNFORGETTABLE INFLUENCE IN BOLLYWOOD.
One’s personal likes and dislikes which are purely subjective has nothing to do with the true facts which cannot he hidden. Coming to multi talented approach, kishore was an actor, entertainer, music director and ………. which none can describe. Even in multi talented skills, kishore surpassed rafi. The Era of kishore had not only enveloped rafi but also music directors who supported rafi – naushad, shankar jai kishan, etc. who too had to fade down. Not only this, even actors shammi kapoor etc. had lost their earlier sheen. Rajesh khanna , R D Burman and kishore virtually gave a unforgettable turning point to bollywood, the era which has not been surpassed till date and which cannot be surpassed in bollywood.
Coming to other singes, have you heard sounderrajan of tamil and jayachandran of malayalam, who too in their ranges and languages are finer than rafi. I cannot imagine rafi singing any tamil song or malayalam song similar to these singers, and as already discussed ghantasala who was unique in the south, needs no mention again. so how can you say no singer matches rafi ……. Pl. say rafi is great in bollywood (heretoo kishore is ahead) , not in indian playback singing. India is a vast country with different talents and they cannot certainly be overlooked.
Kishore passed away in the mid 50’s, otherwise kumar sanu would not have got recognition. Such was kishore, the irreplaceable singer of bollywood.
Dhani ram ji, 1557
Pure subjective post.
KISHORE IS AHEAD OF RAFI, NOT ONLY KISHORE THERE ARE OTHER ACCOMPLISHED SINGERS WHO COULD EASILY SURPASS RAFI BUT KISHORE ASSUMES IMPORTANCE AS HE WAS THE ONE WHO STOPPED THE INFLUENCE OF RAFI AND BROUGHT A WHOLE CHANGE IN THE BOLLYWOOD ERA FROM 1970 – KUDOS TO KISHORE, THE GREAT SINGER OF BOLLYWOOD AND WHO IS EVER REMEMBERED FOR HIS GREAT CONTRIBUTION. My below para should be a perfect answer to your post.
Mr. Surajit bose had clearly indicated in rafi forum that in kuhu kuhu boley koyaliya, both rafi and lata were not even nearer to the telugu version of the song by ghantasala. What are you talking about – no singer can match etc. all false interpretations. Further, give reply to my post 1558 with true facts – that will close the issue on debate of whose voice has the greatest depth and octave renditions ranges. I am 100% sure in a 3 octave composition, if the song starts from a lower octave and reaches higher octave, rafi would have failed, as he had a good voice range which could extend only upto 2 octaves (that too in high pitches he shouts – it is not the same as in medium octave where his voice is comfortable ) Thus, rafi stands fully comfortable only in medium octave. As stated by Sri vas ji, in the siva sankari song example cited, ghantasala does not shout even in high pitches, it is quite great, quite comfortably rendered with ease with great speed even at the highest ni note in the final octave and important thing is the song starts in the lower octave and goes to higher octave – all 3 octaves are simultaneously covered in the song. Could you cite any song of rafi in that range. Rafi could render only 2 octaves i.e. middle and higher and lower he was not even close to kishore. I am yet to come across a musician who was a accomplished playback singer, accomplished classical musician and accomplished music director simultaneously in playback singing. There is no playback singer in India, excepting ghantasala, who possessed all the 3 qualities above simultaneously. He was a celebrated music director for more than 125 films in the south and in whose music direction, even rafi had sung some songs in jhanda ooncha rahe hamara film in hindi in 1964.
K J YESUDAS from the south had a 3 octave range -so he could comfortably render songs in all octaves than rafi .
S P BALU of the south (who is fondly called as kishore kumar of the south) , though regards rafi as a great singer, is ahead of rafi in mimicking songs and break numbers, as One mr. prabhanjan says here, that break numbers (pop songs) s p b was nice to hear.
KISHORE KUMAR had the capability to render lower octaves more clearly than rafi. Mr. Srivas ji had put it rightly here. Further, I do not think rafi is as attractive as kishore in yaadon ki barat, salamat rahe dostana na hamara, kishore easily overshines rafi in these songs. There is no doubt about it.
YOUR COMMENT : NO SINGER …….. MATCHING RAFI IS PURELY ABSURD AND RIDICULOUS – MY ABOVE PARA SHOULD SET THINGS RIGHT. IT IS THE OTHER WAY ROUND – NOT ONLY KISHORE BUT MANY OTHER SINGERS COULD SURPASS RAFI.
Dhani Ram
Post 1557
Kishore was a “chanter”.. Then please do not waste your time here.. This site is for him.. There are other sites where they will take your outrageous theory, no doubt! Here, this sort of comments may create a heated enviornment.. Why are you so “insecured” as a Rafi fan?? If you have trust on your guru, even admitting Kishore as a great singer, you should be able to protect or prove your guru better, IMHO.. which many good Rafians do also..
Some more matured comments from elderly people like you were expected. Thanks.
kishore is far better in voice quality like perfect gents voice and that the reason why hero’s of 70s & 80s prefer him more to rafi. rafisaheb has very sweet voice but some time looks thin.he was classicaly trained singer and better to kishor if song based on classical. voice quality deferred that the song of pyar ka mausam– tum bin jau kahan. kishor gets high number than rafi saheb.
Rafi lovers,
I have heard many people remarking rafi’s voice as feminine voice. Rafi fans view/biased claims as true voice for rafi is thus challenged by many people. In fact, I too agree with the fact. In my view, majestic male voices are of only ghantasala of the south and kishore kumar in hindi, with the former’s one being both melodious and majestic with higher technical ability than others. Both these voices are dynamic. I am sure, kishore, given his texture of his voice, if well technically trained would have been like ghantasala in singing classical songs. In terms of male voices in hindi, I prefer kishore kumar’s voice to rafi whose voice I do not consider as cent percent male oriented. The Rickshaw wala voice comment is born only out of jealousy and nothing more as rafi lovers have no weapon other than this rickshaw wala comment in response to feminine aspect of rafi’s voice.
Many say rafi was good in high pitches. This is absolutely wrong. Whether a singer is really good in high pitch can be determined by virtue of his control in all the 3 octaves simultaneously. Most of the rafi’s songs were in only 2 octaves i.e. middle and higher octaves so rafi’s range was only 2 octaves and any average singer with a reasonable range can deliver 2 octaves easily. Rafi was good in 2 octaves and the higher notes in 2nd octave rafi had delivered nicely and this was taken as high pitch excellency by rafi lovers. What a biased interpretation. I am sure, if a song is composed in 3 octaves, rafi’s high pitch talent is purely questionable, since his range was only 2 octaves. Can any rafi lover disprove this statement by posting a link to a song of rafi composed in 3 octaves simultaneously ( sorry rafi lovers will not have such song). A Singer who is quite comfortably placed in all the 3 octaves simultaneously is to be regarded as great in all the pitches. One such example was by Mr. Srivas, one of the classical musician here on siva sankari song of ghantasala, composed in 3 octaves, with the singer touching as high as ni note in the higher octave quite comfortably. Did rafi had that range. Is there any example of a song of rafi in that range. Certainly no. I request rafi lovers to post a rafi number composed in all the 3 octaves simultaneously. Rafi’s numbers, o duniya ke rakhwaley, zindabad zindabad, subah na aye sham etc. are only in 2 octaves, and the high pitches are only in 2nd octave high notes i.e. middle and high octave. In a 3 octave composition, I am sure rafi would have failed in delivering high notes. It is a well known fact that in lower octaves, kishore’s rendition were better than rafi’s. In fact Mr. Srivas was stating that even yesudas of the south has 3 octave range, they are great singers.
Many singers,including Kishore,have sung many pleasant songs.But there has been only one man who can he called a singer in real sense and that is rafi and rafi alone.he touches empyrean heights in his songs that no other singer can dream of.kishore had an appealing voice quite fit for superficail singing.He lacked depth.this depth we find to the highest degree in rafi at his best.rafi traverses regions that only lata approaches.I cite just one song whikch i consider to be a glory of film music attaining a level no other singer ever clould.the song is:
kaheen bekhyal ho kar kabhi choo diya kisi ne kayee khwab dekh daale waheen meiri bekhudi ne.
Rafi’s forte as true singer was his skill in singing alaaps.Kishore either didn’t try or if he did he flopped miserably.Kishore was not a singer ,he was like most other film singers only a chanter.
singers from bollywood like lata mangeshkar,asha bonsley,
mannadey,kishore kumar,talat mehmood and hemalata sung
songs for various malayalam movies and except kishore kumar
all the singers’ songs become superhits.people even did not know
kishore kumar sung a song for a malayalam movie.(the movie
was “ayodhya” and the hero was prem nazir.)the interesting thing
is mohamed rafi did not sing a single song in malayalam language
and in some parts of kerala he is having die hard fans.his fans are
so crazy that one porter in alleppy is conducting rafi night on every
31st july, the death anniversary of mohamed rafi and distributing food
by borrowing money from others.he even built a concrete bus shed
in the name of mohamed rafi.one more interesting thing is mohamed
rafi performed live programmes even in small towns of kerala such
as talassery,changanachery but kishor kumar sought the help
of yesudas to perform a live programme in cochin.according to
malayalam cine actor jagadish,mohamed rafi has die hard fans in
calicut than in lucknow.almost all kerala singers’ favourite is mohamed
rafi.
Refer to post 1553:
Sid,
Good analysis by you, despite of great reverence for Kishore Da, which i know you have.
Keep Posting…
Arghya,
Stop acting like a wimp. No one hates Kishore da. If I remember correctly, you were the one who injected the word “hate” into this debate. Kishore da is too great a singer to need testimonials from anyone. But one word of advice: don’t pay heed to the manufactured lies of Bengali journalists and some of the fake experts who visit this forum in the guise of classical gurus. There are too many real gurus who have engaged in “technical” discussions on the topic. Kapil’s comments on what Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Pandit Gyan Praksah Ghosh said about Rafi are true. The latter considered Rafi to be the greatest exponent of “semi-classical” songs (this I heard myself on AIR). In one of the articles that he had written in Desh Patrika, he said that among all the singers, he liked Rafi the most. Of course, likes and dislikes are subjective, so it is quite possible that someone else might like Kishore more.
If I have to write about what other luminaries said about Rafi, it will take me a couple of days. I’d advise you to go beyond your Bengali roots and do some honest, investigative journalism, instead of starting with a set of biased views. Since someone mentioned Pandit Jasraj, let me provide you with an excerpt from one of his interviews:
“Naushad saheb used classical raags to create different moods. Or else he went in for beautiful folk tunes. Remember his Multani, Malkauns, Bhairav, Lalit, Bhairavi, Kedara, Hamir?
Trained as they were in classical shaili, Lataji and Mohammed Rafi could do justice to his melodies, whether Ganga ki mauj, Mohe bhool gaye sawariya (Baiju Bawra) or Madhuban mein radhika (“Kohinoor”). Who else but Naushad could have the guts to ask the greatest classical musicians of his time to sing for him?
… classical music had distanced itself from the masses. Naushad revived a nationwide interest in it. Uski wajah se ham aaj hain (We are where we are today because of that). Even today if someone sings Malkauns, listeners remember Man tarpat hari darshan (Baiju Bawra), a Kedar makes you recall Bekaspe karam (“Mughal-e-Azam”).”
Arghya,
Hiii buddy! 😀
Hmmm Your analysis was quite alright, Tho I’d like to add my 2 cents:
1. The edge Rafi had in bhajans, ghazals and qawwali’s were not “slight”, rather there was a vast difference.
2.The romantic and comedy songs:
I do not agree that there is any singer in this planet(not even mr. sinatra) who can hold a candle(sorry for using your least fav word :P) to Mohd. Rafi’s Romantic songs. Yes , there is no doubt that I love KK’s romantic songs, but then again I like romantic songs of other singers (pt to be noted that among the ones who are not mohd rafi, kishore kumar and kk are my fav’s) Plus the romantic songs of kishore imo were vocally brilliant, but the voice was not as romantic as rafi’s and also the expressions of rafi were impossible to capture, which is not in the case of ANY singers expressions.
3.The comedy songs.. Well I wouldn’t say hands down to voice of johnny walker and a singer who could bring craziness to a large extent. The margin between them is not that much if you remove the acting in and directing movies. Rather I would say there is a slight margin, obviously with kk gettin the upper hand, because his crazy expressions are similar to rafi’s romantic ones. And yes as you said to me once kishore got the romantic rajesh khanna songs, but don’t you think a certain amt of credit goes to rajesh khanna’s expressions? In fact mohd rafi’s romantic songs were burdened with rajendra kumar’s wide mouth and shammi’s weird nakhra’s. I am not saying that kishore depended on kaka, but the contribution of the actor is more visible in kk songs compared to rafi songs. On the other hand when you listen to rafi’s comedy songs you can still feel the craziness. Vocally however, both have performed wonderfully imo
4.Still confused abt range…. as i said rafi lead by a slight margin over most of the singers. And no kk has no “low range”.. his range is fine!
On a lighter note, I do not see why people call kishore kumar a “rikshaw wala voice”.. It is sad to hear “music lovers” calling kishore “cheap voiced”
and Rafi “lady voiced”. In fact I will say that it is an unintentional compliment to the voice modulating capabilities of these singers! 😀
Sid
Dear Lalit Sir,
You not only possess great business acumen of Kishore Da, but also his hilarious comic talent, even Kishore da would have been proud of you, had he lived more to see all your posts. Friends,don’t raise your eyebrows if soon Shri Lalit Ji proclaims something that he can easily sing “Na Kisi ki aankh ka noor hoon” but can’t sing “Humein tumse pyar kitna”.
Friends,Bade Gulam Ali Khan Sahab and Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh had rellay admired Rafi Sahab, in fact the latter one called Rafi the “exponent of Classical singing in HFM”, i am sure, Lalit Ji with all his great classical Taleem, would really have corrected these two legends, had he interacted with them.
Kishore’s better control than others, over Naada,Pranna and all other basics of classical singing, was another joke by Shri Lalit Ji.
Arghya,
I am not at all dismissive to Kishore, By that “Universal Truth”, i meant people love Kishore Da as an artist *more*, like for his singing, acting, comedy and Direction with music direction (I know many who love Jhumroo, DGKCM, DKR). But i really doubt, other than Kishore Bhakts, who would *love* to listen him in classical and Bhajans.
Thanks
All the singers are great in their own style.dont’t make comparisions between legendrey singers.