An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Arghya ji and paramjeet ji and others,
CONTD.. FROM MY PREVIOUS POST WHERE HALDAR JI HAD GIVEN A “SERIOUS HUMOUROUS ADVICE” TO ALL KISHORE FANS – NOW ANOTHER ESTEEMED MAJESTY (WHO WAS INCIDENTALLY A DEPUTATIONIST RATHER POORLY COMPLETING HIS JOB HERE) REPLIES AS BELOW:
J.K. Bhagchandani Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Haldarji,
Greetings and Happy New Year.
I fully appreciate and respect the idea of your choosing to reply to my post on this thread. Your one sentence: “These guys are so serious that they do not even appreciate humour…” appropriately defines some of the KK fans who are behaving as supreme judges of all forms of music present on this planet. Meanwhile let me inform you that name P. Haldar still haunts them. Your years’ old posts are dug out, copy-pasted and discussed in a distorted way to prove how ill-behaved Rafi-fans are. Ha !!!!
But you are right… that sooner or later they might see the light. We can also hope that they develop some ’sense of humor’ to be in sync with KK’s talents. Good wishes and ‘Happy New year’ to them too.
THAT’S IT.
Well, Mr Bhagchandani ji, extreme thanks for your post and advise. It has become almost completely clear that you are not even able to appreciate musical discussions on rags and octaves – What rafi lovers you are ? Do you know music – AS PARAMJEET SAYS – MUSIC MALOOM HAI BOLTE HAI MAGAR SANGEET KI JAANKARI NAHI HAIEN EN LOGO KO, WAH PARAMJEET JI – you have proved correct now.
May be we all wish you all “so called” rafi fans see the true light and knowledge of music “in a way which rafi sahab has seen it” in the new year and we reciprocate the best wishes for a new year.
By the way rafi lovers : all these years you were blowing a trumpet called rafi was a nice human being and ….. You will all be surprised to see a hindu article (post 1646 of vitthal ji) on ghantasala ji, whose saintly qualities are mentioned in the last line of the article as his greatest achievement : So rafians : Ghantasala ji scores on rafi as a nice human being as well : a new discovery ha ha ha :
Rafi lovers : Try to respect individuals and legends as they are, then only you can earn respect.
ARGHYA JI, VITTHAL JI, SATYANSH JI, PARAMJEET JI, SRI VASJI , KHAN JI & OTHERS
MY POST ON P HALDAR JI HAD THE DESIRED RESPONSE BY MR.HALDAR IN THE OTHER FORUM UNDER THE ARTICLE “THE MASTER AND HIS MATES” & HE HAS ADDRESSED / ISSUED AN ADVISE TO ALL THE KISHORE FANS, SPECIALLY ALL OF US (INCLUDING RESPECTED CLASSICAL MUSICIANS).
This is his majesty’s esteemed post in the other forum. I AM QUITE HAPPY THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE KEEPING A CLOSE WATCH ON EACH OF THE COMMENTS BEING PASTED HERE AND ALL OF YOU CAN CLEARLY KNOW THE FACT FROM THIS POST OF MR. HALDAR. (The jealousy factor clearly comes out on the great southern playback singers)
P. Haldar Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Dear Mr. Bhagchandani,
I am responding to your comments on this thread because the other thread is for a noble cause and I don’t want to say something that may be construed as being frivolous. I make no bones about the fact that I am a Rafi fanatic, as hardcore as one can get. But over the years, I have discovered that a lot of the KK fans are closet Rafians. So I’ve decided to tone down a bit in the hope that many of them will see the light in due course. I’ve seen this happen to many people I know, the latest addition being my doctor friend.
I never actually used to mind the chatter of the KK fans as long as they were limited to background noise. The problem with some of them is that they start showing off their ustadi. Can you imagine what Kishore da would have thought of them if he heard their discussion on various raags and raaginis, this octave and that octave, and low notes and high notes. These guys are so serious that they do not even appreciate humour — how can they call themselves Kishore da’s fans?
Sooner or later, many of them will also see the light. I’ve decided to start the New Year with the hope that they will become less serious, listen less to classical songs of southern greats, and listen more to Kishore and Rafi, which they can understand and appreciate.
THAT WAS THE POST MY DEAR KISHORE LOVERS. So what has to be the response.
Well Mr. Haldar, you have already ensured that when we post there, our messages are not posted there, so that your one sided games can continue there without giving an opportunity to others to defend themselves (because messages are not posted), & no matter whatever you say there, is taken as a bye law by so called ………….ics (as you call yourselves & i am not saying).
When you have hinted : hear less classical songs of southern greats : your insecurity feeling and indirectly surrendering to the greatness of the southern legends is clear, my dear friend. Where is your rafi factor, has your rafi/ your belief in rafi has become so weak that you are fearing that if we listen to ghantasala ji, we will forget rafi and kishore (sorry, we are not appreciating rafi or kishore as you say) , oh, what a insecured feeling you have conveyed, I think you too might have heard the songs of the southern greats and got carried away similar to other rafi fans specially and now to protect your image, have started new campaign. Keep it up. First it was thunderbolts & missiles in your previous posts, now seeing the bitter response (even by your own dignified rafians) you have started pacifying route, without any other way. Keep it up.
Sorry haldar ji, please remember what Arghya ji says here – windows have opened for hearing southern music i.e. we are expanding our knowledge base as true music lovers. We should always bear in mind that rafi and kishore are appreciated by all southern talents and people as well, then why cannot we reciprocate / get exposed to the immense contribution of the carnatic music gems ? That is Arghya ji and see paramjeet ji’s enlighted recent post here where in he appreciates all legends, including rafi for your information.
Moreover Haldar ji, When southern music lovers praise rafi and kishore, you are happy, but problem arises for you people to praise southern talents – what a equation sir.
Next, nothing is going to happen even if we praise genuine southern talents, because rafi, kishore, ghantasala etc. are no longer there and even if you praise or speak otherwise, nothing is going to happen to them and no amount of comments can bring down their excellent contribution. So it is better to change your biased views please.
VITTHAL JI & PRABHANJAN JI, (SPECIALLY/only FOR BOTH OF YOU FRIENDS) MESSAGE FOR HALDAR JI AS WELL PURPOSEFULLY
Thank you both for great posts sir. I really heartily, as kishore fan, congratulate telugu people, as you have such legends, like ghantasala and SPB, (like Rafi and kishore in Hindi) that it might be difficult to find a replacement to them (again like rafi and kishore in hindi)
It is really a wonder, Vitthal ji (your post 1646 – hindu paper article on ghantasala ) that the terms used for ghantasala are rather : was a colossus, ruled for 30 years, unparalled, places him above all in the field adored by millions even after 35 years etc. I do not think, as far as my knowledge goes, no singer in Indian playback singing ruled unparalleled for 30 years (Am I Correct Arghya ji) Rafi ji was unparalleled for 17 years (1952-69) after which kishore was along with him, next kishore too if you reckon from 69-87, it is 18 years. Next you have another one, SPB, as I understand from Mr. Prabhanjan & others that from 1975 to around 2000 , roughly 25 years SPB had dominated. Sir’s both of these have simply ruled the industry, I believe, and nice to hear about them. It is not a exagerration to say that, when talents who have ruled for such long periods exercising monopoly, definitely there is some substance in accepting about their greatness, rather than feeling jealous of the real talents. Another fact, which I have noted that ghantasala has sung more than 10,000 songs, SPB has sung close to 30,000 songs – Rafi ji is believed to have sung 5000 and kishore 3000 songs. Really, if we compare with ghantasala, rafi is half and kishore is 1/3rd and if with SPB rafi is 15% and kishore is 10% (lolz). In this regard, i would add the meaning less lie of Mr. MYK, we he says that rafi had sung more ….. than ghantasala, whereas the facts are different. SPB too, as I understand from Mr. Prabhanjan is far ahear in these numbers.
We are happy to note, vitthal ji and prabhanjan ji, and are really thankful to you for having shared details about great southern talents and please believe sirs, we have equal respect for them for these incomparable talents, much similar to the incomparable talents of Hindi cinema, Rafi ji and Kishore ji, who continue to mesmerise millions even today (I know same is the case with southern greats too).
Sir, we kishore fans, I can confirm, that Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji , Satyansh ji too & others are not insecured like rafi fans (as haldar ji’s post above) – Arghya ji is fine example in this regard. He is discussing bengali songs with vitthal ji – in divine voice thread. (Perhaps haldar ji has still not found this and start saying to stop bengali songs sharing and hear rafi and kishore songs of hindi) — ha ha.
Anil ji, You are please welcome to share gems of K J Yesudas too for expanding our knowledge, there is nobody to stop you from enlightening in a dignified way –
That is -finally kishore lovers, Mr. Haldar Ji.
Thanks a lot.
Khan Sir,
Thanks for your post I have posted in the morning but i think my post has bounced , I am also posting the same here again .
Sir, Yes the song “Sankara” is composed in the “Madhyamadi Sarang” of the hindusthani which corresponds to the “MADHYAMAVATI” raga of the carnatic and in which many devotional songs have been composed. The raga takes 5 notes : s r m p n
YOUR INTERESTING CLASSICAL POINT SIR AS REQUESTED :
“I give you a quiz now for exchanging classical knowledge. I am mentioning the initial “notes/swars” hereunder of the song “shankara” and request you to fill the remaining “notes/swars” to complete the first para of the song.
The notes are
pa sa ni sa ni sa re sa ni pa ma pa (Shankara nada sarira para) –
I request you to please complete the remaining notes upto jeeveshwara
(shankar nada sarira para veda vihara hara jeeveshwara)”
Sir, you have given the outline notations of the song. I am herewith giving the basic outline notation for the first para of the song.
P S N S…… N…(SANKARA)
N S R S N P.. M P… (NADA SARIRA PARA)
R M P N P M R S R…. S M R SS N S (VEDA VIHARA HARA JEEVESWARA)
Those are the basic outline notes for the 1st para of the song and they are accordingly adjusted for bringing out the necessary emotions/effects on the instruments.
kishore fan ji,
Sure, we shall discuss about kishore kumar ji’s songs as well. He is the man as many people claim, that without much advanced technical capability, could mesmerise people (even musicians) with his renditions. Such capability is great.
Satyansh ji,
Thanks for the post and correction. My meaning only was the language style only (english) was being looked similar with regard to Srivas ji. And nothing else for sure, always due respect to Srivas ji and no misunderstandings. thanks again for the correction, I should have presented in a better way.
Anil
Please see the following link : Your all myths and misconceptions will be closed FOREVER. PLEASE SHARE THIS (AS A HONEST MUSIC LOVER) with anybody who is misguided by similar thoughts.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/02/11/stories/2003021100450100.htm
Wow!!! So many posts – kind-off overwhelmed. Pardon me if I miss some.
Khan ji, Welcome back. I would eventually have questions for you if you would be kind enough to opine :).
Paramjeet ji, Yoon hi likhte rahiye. Mujhe aapki posts padhne mein bahut mazaa aata hai aur hum aapke saath hain. Waise aapki bhajan aur qawallee ki baaton par kuch samay baad apni site par likhunga. Saransh mein mai aapse sehmat hoon, par iss vishay par kuch pehloo mai darshana chahta hoon bilkul ussi tarah jis tarah high notes par humne details mein vartalaap ki thi. Maine kai gaanon par iss umeed mein nahi likha tha ki koi aur inn geeton ki khoobiyon ko darshaye. Par ab kuch baatein shighr hi karunga. Phir aage baat karenge.
Anil, Yes, I feel they are much comparable. There are many qualities that I was waiting for someone else to highlight, however, noone has come up with any views yet. Still waiting … let us move this discussion to my site. You can go there and click on a link to register. Pardon the process, it is because I don’t have time to moderate. It is however, just a one-time login thing and you get an activation email. After that you can remain logged on forever.
Vithal ji, I don’t really care much for Haldar ji’s remarks and don’t believe it matters enough for any of us to get into the forget and forgive kind of scenario. If anything, it is funny – cheap but funny. However, in the context where I replied the vulgarity needed to be highlighted as I felt Kishore fans were being targeted in an unfair manner. Agree with Kishore Fan ji, Paramjeet ji, Raj ji, Arghya ji, etc. on this one. If you read any of our posts even after he spoke in a vulgar manner, we still maintained dignity. Arguing is a waste of time. FYI, what part of Srivas ji’s write-up reminded of myk [Post 1641] ;)? Srivas ji is extremely knowledgeable, talks about music and shares his knowledge with us. myk on the other hand is a fanatic who can’t do much but yawn, bring religion into music and claim Rafi’s superiority in everything. Hope you understand :).
Prabhanjan [Post 1643], I heard one song and loved it. Thanks to you, am slowly learning that SPB can sound very sweet in his songs. Will hear the others over the weekend. Completely agree with the presentation and crux of your post. You have presented that every singer has positives that we can learn to appreciate them. Thank you again for sharing songs.
THE ESTEEMED MODERATOR JI, ARGHYA JI & PARAMJEET JI AND OTHERS
SIR KINLDY ACCEPT HEARTFUL THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT YOU HAVE BEEN PROVIDING FOR A GREAT MUSICAL DISCUSSION
LET US START WITH
H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2 0 1 0
T O A L L M U S I C L O V E R S
The year 2009 has passed away pleasantly sharing musical discussions.
AS ARGHYA JI REQUESTS, LET US MOVE TO DIVINE VOICE OF DEVOTIONAL KISHORE THREAD FOR MORE DISCUSSIONS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.
THIS MAY BE (otherwise) MY LAST POST HERE IN THIS THREAD.
This is my response to the posts here.
ANIL JI, (I expect reply from you for the points hereunder)
Thanks for your post, 1638. You have replied to almost all posts excepting post 1625 of Raghavan ji, wherein K J Yesudas speaks about ghantasala (& his voice) specifically as the legend who was responsible for popularity of south indian music. What do you have to say on that ? I feel you have purposefully avoided reply to this particular post, for the reasons best known to you. All other posts you could pin point something loosely, but Raghavan ji had hit it corrrectly, I think.
Second : Your misconceptions are perhaps now removed by seeing PRABHANJAN JI’S beautiful post (which reponse you have asked) here on your comments SPB praising rafi or KJY etc. and you might have definitely seen SRIVAS JI and MURTHY ji stating that your thinking of SPB praising Ghantasala on demand is pure fantasy and imagination and moreover other comments that all southern singers have learnt playback singing techniques from none other than Ghantasala master. What do you have to say on that ? (KJY Speech provided by Raghavan Ji is an enlightenment to you – Please do not take it seriously, but be honest anil ji)
Moreover, Prabhanjan ji’s another correct point – More than 10 times SPB following ghantasala’s style than rafi – Fully correct and natural – Because for singing telugu film songs perfectly – one has to listen to the only ghantasala alone and that is the truth and there is no other way.
PRABHANJAN JI – THANKS FOR THE G R E A T POST SIR.
i am with you on almost all points excepting the last para.
You are right, No telugu man will agree that rafi has any importance in his telugu songs, Moreover rafi could get singing telugu songs in 1969 first, mainly when there was a dipute between NTR and ghantasala, & when the dispute settled Rafi was no longer there and during that time rafi had sung some 7 to 8 songs in telugu. And the remaining 14 songs of rafi whatever may be are only after demise of ghantasala and rafi thus virtually has no importance in telugu as a singer. Yes, execution carnatic style, particularly telugu songs by rafi was not at all appreciated by telugus.
Next, ghantasala singing on chiranjeevi and others (specially break dance style numbers), we cannot say either “yes or no” given the time changes and circumstances (though I tilt more to “yes”) But I can say that leave circumstances and situations, You and I know both well that ghantasala was such a talent WHO WAS PERFECT IN INVOKING NAVARASAS FOR ANY COMPOSITION AND that he used to compose and sing songs depending upon the situations and circumstances and perhaps, ACCORDINGLY he would have created same magic with in the latter period also (for instance : have you heard senaga pula raika dana from tatamma kala – a break dance style song of ghantasala composed by s rajeswara rao in 1974 beautifully rendered)
FRIENDS, LET US MOVE TO DIVINE VOICE THREAD AS REQUESTED BY ARGHYA JI
ONCE AGAIN A MERRY HAPPY NEW YEAR WISHES TO ALL THE MUSICAL LOVERS – 2010
First, I want to share some of SPB gems. Lets start with some telugu songs.
S.Janaki has so many wonderful duets with SPB that a short list won’t do any justice. Nevertheless, this song “Aa kanulalo” from a movie Alapana is very beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnB_UgpdgJ8
SPB solo from the same movie is one hell of a gem. Surely you will all love it 🙂 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo1voj9Q3I8
Geetanjali movie has this one the best solos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwv8I4-2gRY
Keladi kanmani – Mannil intha kaathal – Ilaiyaraaja
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5EAlr_W2yg
This is one of first breathless songs. Beautiful song enacted on the screen by SPB himself.
“Mouna Ragam” is one of the most melodious musically movie. The IR-Mani Rathnam was peerless. Listen and enjoy and be enthralled by the two songs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnX9gt5_wAg and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5v1xOQmcQE
This is an earlier version of “neele neele ambar par” in tamil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8l_ezoU8Lc (listen after 5:00). Rather comparisons, lets enjoy both 🙂
One of the reasons why I like is his ability to sing songs for Chiranjeevi and Rajnikanth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvf2DC9-E9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDdKTu8CnUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LtdvJx9zKg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LWEY7c29RU
Oh yes! I was asked to post some of his crap songs. To put things in perspective, lets do it this way. One of the best songs from Sankarabharanam movie is “Samajavaragamana”. This link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcfENTuGdTo No, this is certainly not a crap song. But how brutally he can murder it can be seen from this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtJCVAaGwE This from a movie called “Top Hero”. Being fanatic, I like the second version too 😛
Finally, one of my all time hindi fav song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUUvjcTqAP8 (MPSMH)
Ok, no point turning blind eye towards all the furore thats going about SPB’s comment on Rafi not being able sing that song. This comment is being seen in two directions: (i) Rafi is limited on classical front, (ii) SPB is committing blasphemy. Before going into any of these, let me clear some misconceptions.
First is the general belief that Sankarabharanam helped SPB become a top singer. This is just not true. He was the No.1 singer even before that. Ghantsaala was no more around to sing in telugu, and PB Srinivas declined in kannada once Rajkumar started to sing himself. Post MGR and Sivaji Ganesan, TMS was not that force as he was earlier. So even before the great movie happened, SPB was de facto the best at that moment.
Second. There is a gross misunderstanding about SPB praising Rafi and RDB over Ghantasaala and IR. Its like this. On the national scenario, whatever SPB says about Rafi and RDB is duly recorded and read by lot of people. Whenever SPB praises Ghantasaala or IR, it does appear in the media and regional papers but not read by many people. Reason is simple. Be it the print media or electronic media, all have different editions for different regions. In fact SPB was told directly by Ghantasaala to use his own voice instead of accepting producers pressure to sing like Ghantasaala.This made all the difference and SPB mentions it as many times as he can. Similarly, many fans in the south get aghast when they read him praising RDB more and not IR. The reason is simple. Whenever he speaks with national media, it makes sense to talk about legends who are known more to that audience. If SPB has followed Rafi style in some songs, there are 10 times more songs he appears more Ghantasaalaish than Rafish.
Third. SPB was rejected in hindi. This has got more to do with logistics than anything else. Lets see this why its true that SPB was not rejected. The most prominent music directors in this period include Laxmikant-Pyarelal, RDB, Rajesh Roshan, Bappi Lahiri,Nadeem-Shravan, Raam-Laxman, Anand-Milind, and Anu Malik. Each of them have used SPB on more than one occasion. Even legends like Naushad and O.P. Nayyar have taken him for few songs. (Of all of them only Anu Malik had reportedly remarked him as gimmick).
Now, returning to the furore. Typically, we never like such statements though we love and expect one or the other person to issue them. However, its not as bad as it first appears. Knowing the man so closely and followed him the most, I can say for sure that when he said that, it was with sincerity. There are about 20 Rafi songs in telugu, and if one listens all of them (I can provide them), it can be safely said by any observer that a carnatic classical song was certainly not possible to execute. A bit more clarification here is needed. This is not to imply that any shortcomings in Rafi. Also, this is one flaw that I have observed in the “The True Voice” blog http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html. The author downplays the rendition of “Omkara nadanu” as follows: “There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect.” Things are not as simple as what respected Swaminatha Iyer sir (the main author of that article) would like us to believe. We have this tendency to downplay artists most prized possessions. However great any singer may be, the other greats best are best left untouched. As much as one loves their idols, lets accept that Kumar Sanu is the best singer to have rendered “Ek ladki to dekha to aisa laga” or Abhijeet is best for Yes Boss songs (all of them), or Udit Narayan is the best for “Papa kehte hain”, and so on.
Further, its also truth that when the legendary director K. Vishwanath says that he can’t listen SPBs Bhagavad Geetha after listening to Ghantasaala’s master piece on the same. Neither can I do (though I have both of them 🙂 ). Its also true for every single teluguite.
Having said all that, I also have evidence that SPB is also not that great when it comes to Rafi songs. Rafis one of the best song “Radhike tune bansi re churayi” has been sung in kannada by SPB as “Radhike ninna sarasu idenide”. Its just not good.
Btw, Vithalji, maybe you can reckon that Ghantasaalaji would have rendered “Samajavara gamana” of the famous movie better. But do you seriously think that he would done the second “Samajavara gamana” of the movie “Top Hero” whose link I have given earlier 😀 . Also, can you sincerely say with confidence that Ghantasaalaji would have been better on Chiranjeevi and the likes?
1635 – Kishore fan ji,
MR P HALDAR JI, had written the post on 26th january, (which you had posted) i.e republic day, and you know the significance. So haldar ji perhaps was in that mood, and was planning for a missile attack against people who are not rafi fans.
One Mr. Akash, (post 1510) a neutral music lover had hit at Mr. Haldar for his remark there in that post.
AND NEXT THIS POST (PERHAPS IS HE THE SAME ANIL WITH WHOM WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE ?)
Anil Cherian Says:
January 27th, 2009 at 1:41 am
Haldar sir:
Nothing but truth from you. What is baffling to me (as I mentioned before) is the fact that they all come in the same prototype. From Rafi fan-to- also Rafi fan-to-nuetral-to- fan of XYZ-to- Rafi critic (or hater?).
On a lighter note, you have mentioned what I do for a living in your post
AND THIS IS THE OBSERVATION OF SURAJIT BOSE JI
Surajit A. Bose Says:
January 28th, 2009 at 3:19 am
Hi Anil Cherian,
reg. your message 1507,
What do you do for a living ?
Based on Haldar’s comments in post 1501, should I imagine that you beat up people who are not rafi fans ?
Haldar hinted this at two places:
1. He says “form a group called UAR and then come to us. We’ll take care of you.”
2. He also says “in my youth, we rafians believed in the *simple* motto: “one word against the farishta and you are de*d”.
I am not sure if Rafi will be proud to have fans who are so unlike him, and whose mottos are so *simple*.
THOSE WERE THE POSTS.
AND SURPRISINGLY NOW DISCUSSIONS ARE BEING INITIATED, PERHAPS AS NEUTRAL MUSIC LOVERS ? CAN IT BE BELIEVED ? LET US SEE AND BELIEVE FOR THE TIME BEING.
SRIVAS JI – POST 1627
YOUR INTERESTING POST – THE WRITE UP AND LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS CLOSELY RESEMBLE THAT OF SRI M Y K JI, A RAFI FAN – I AM FASCINATED AT YOUR PRESENTATION.
Contd.. Paramjeet and Arghya ji,
forgot one point – Srivas ji’s post on sankarabharanam raga in this thread – a melodius song of ghantasala is posted there which is purely devotional par excellence.
1625, Raghavan sir,
Great post, Thanks for the information and specially K J Yesudas speech on ghantasala.
PARAMJEET JI & ARGHYA JI
Paramjeet ji, Rafi’s devotional song are a class in itself. We can have a nice discussion on them at some other time, mostly at your convenience & also Arghya ji please (as his last para in his article on divine voice of devotional kishore brings out his immense regard for rafi ji) .
By the way, In fact, we have been discussing all along in divine voice thread about devotional kishore songs article, but I lost the main essence, devotional songs of ghantasala, for which he is best admired “even than his classical songs” and his devotional song CD’s are more sold and find a place in every andhra’s and music lover’s home. This thought flashed to me to post here, after seeing K J Yesudas’s immense praise of Ghantasala’s devotional songs in the post 1625 of Raghavan sir here (Speech by K J Yesudas is reproduced there). By the way the first Asthana vidwan (court musician) for Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanams (TTD) was ghantasala and his devotional songs on Lord Venkateswara are so famous and admired, and are played daily in the famed temple along with his much famed classic Bhagavad geetha rendition, every day. When you stay in tirumala temple premises for a day, you will have a hearing of the same.
Further, Paramjeet ji, Siva sankari, Syamala Dandakam, Madi Sarada Devi, etc. are classical devotionals and other famed devotionals of ghantasala, I shall definitely share with you in divine voice of devotional thread in due course.
Murthy garu, 1624
You are back after a long time. Interesting post by you.
Classical musicians, Srivas ji, Khan ji, Surajit bose ji,
I too request similar to kishore fan ji, kindly continue to initiate good classical musical discussion on various legend’s gems, it will be a nice musical treat to all the music lovers here.
KISHORE FAN JI (ALSO SATYANSH JI AND OTHERS)
My earnest request, forget about P Haldar ji and others, for forgetting with forgiveness is a great spiritual quality and must be cultivated for mental peace.
Always remember kishore kumar’s song – kuch lo log kahengey, logon ka kam hai kehana, chodon ye bekar ki batein………….
and finally please aim at true music……… gaata rahe mera dil, tu hi meri manzil.
thanks.
My…my… What all responses. Hope people spend sime time reading posts carefully before going berserk at their keyboards.
Let me answer some of them as briefly as I can.
1. To Srivasji
a. I didn’t say “sankara..” was based on Shankarabharan raag.
b. I didn’t venture into a commentery on this particular ‘raag’ at all.
c. All I said was ” Rafi sahab wouldn’t have be made THE SONG ‘SANKARA..’ as popular to the South Indian common film music followers as SPB sir did. I also said this is on account of ‘style’ and ‘language’ rather than the mastery of ‘raag’.
Please show me if I said anything more about this song or the shankarabharanam ‘raag’.
2. To Murthyji
a. Please refer to all the points above
b. I don’t want to compare Ghantasalaji V Yesu Das sir here. Please suggest some other platform and we shall debate it out.
c. Ditto with Ghantasalaji’s voice. No point discussing it here.
3. Kishorefanji
I don’t see you asking me any questions in that particular post. What am I to respond to? Only on “Kishore overtaking Rafi”? I shall do it surely but I would like to know if guys like Satyansh, Arghya and Paramjeet are for it. I don’t want to be accused of starting another unpleasant series.
4. Rajji:
What bashing are you talking of? This is a boxing ring? What do you want to prove with your theories? Going by them, one would have to say Kishoreda was a non-singer (since he was untrained). Surely that is not what you want to prove. And try telling someone with some real musical knowledge (esp. someone who’s actually stood behind the mike) that KJY (or Mannada) doesn’t have a magnificient voice…they’ll laugh at your face.
5. Kumarji:
I wasn’t really grading singers.. I don’t know what gave you the idea. Is it because I said Mannada is comparable to Ghantasalji in classical-oriented songs and Yesu Das sir can rival him? Infact I wholeheartedly agree with you that each one of those artists were special intheir own ways.
6. Satyansh & Paramjeet:
Atleast you guys have got what I wanted to say or to put it differently didn’t get something which I didn’t intend to say. Need more time to respond. Shall be back soon. Meantime could you guys tell me what you feel about Mannada’s competency in classical based songs vis-avis Ghantasalaji’s? I feel it is comparable. If this is not the right platform, we can do it elsewhere.. may be Satyansh’s site.
Dear Srivas sahab – post 1628 & Anil sahab
Srivas sahab, you have initiated a nice discussion on classical music here. Well, I agree with you Srivas Sahab, (Anil sahab to hear also) that “shankara” song by SPB, I have heard in the link provided by you, and it is NOT composed in the “Bhilaval thaat” i.e. “sankarabharanam” in carnatic.
I confirm that the song “Shankara” is composed in the “Madhyamadi Sarang” (thaat 10) and as you desire, Srivas sahab request you to mention the carnatic equivalent of the song.
I give you a quiz now for exchanging classical knowledge. I am mentioning the initial “notes/swars” hereunder of the song “shankara” and request you to fill the remaining “notes/swars” to complete the first para of the song.
The notes are
pa sa ni sa ni sa re sa ni pa ma pa (Shankara nada sarira para) –
I request you to please complete the remaining notes upto jeeveshwara
(shankar nada sarira para veda vihara hara jeeveshwara)
This will be an interesting discussion and I am sure, you are capable of doing it with your classical knowledge, as I am convinced of your ability by your description of “sankarabharanam” raga.
Well, going to SPB sahab song, I am happy with the way SPB sahab had rendered, the expressions & emotions (bhavas) were touching, nicely rendered and the same appeared to be in a professional manner. One of the nice songs of SPB sahab which I have heard and thanks for the song. Nicely rendered & good composition.
Next, i wanted to compliment you on the ghantasala sahab song in “sankarabharanam rag” – well as usual, he is outstanding in the song “kanarara Kailasa nivasa” – an excellent devotional song, and he rendered the same with par excellence with his melodious voice exquisitively bringing the perfect qualities of the Bhilawal thaat in its perfect form – naturally with ease by virtue of his classical expertise and gifted melodious voice. He sings from the heart, that is the perfect quality of a true musician. Thanks for the song as well.
Paramjeet 1633
Great post. Your sense of music is laudable. And you are the best Kishore fan amongst all of us. Your post itself shows that. Keep it up, bro..
Kishorefan 1635
Lolz at that post of Haldar saab.. 🙂 No doubt the TRP of Comedy Circus would go down with such magnificient remarks at some websites. Should have pasted those classic remarks also like “RDB is drugged and insane”(I dont remember the remark maker, must be a bigger legend himself than RDB), ” Anil Biswas a chameleon”(Remark maker- a living legend and leader of Rafi foundation), “Salil Chowdhury was politically corrupt, regionalist and jealous against Rafi”( Remark Maker-a Legendary violin player), “Kishore converted to Islam, what a shame”!( Remark Maker- A “Unknow” legend)… Suggest to bring an album with these remarks and brand it as “Rafians Unmixed- Humein Chalte Jaana hai” 🙂
What say? Lolz..
Satyansh 1631
Yes, you are right. Paramjeet did support Rafi. Remember the high notes discussion? And Paramjeet’s latest post is one of the most brief and beautiful posts I have come across in recent times.
Srivasji/Khan Sahab/ Raj/Vitthalji
A great appreciation to all of you from this small man.. All your posts have been like opening a new window to me in South Indian music. Thanks so much to you all, gentleman. Let us take this discussion to the “Divine Voice” column as this article is I think for something else.
Anil,
When I saw the posts getting moderated, I saw a flurry of posts with the address to “Anil” in the Recent Posts column on first page.. Felt jealous for the first time in many months in this community 🙂
Anil ji,
Your post 1615 addressed to Satyansh ji on P haldar ji, Just see this post of P Haldar Ji from True voice (1501), I am reproducing here for your information and what you have to say on this?
P. Haldar Says:
January 26th, 2009 at 10:59 am
ref post 1498:
hi manish, very good post but my advice to you would be to refrain from any kind of discussion with these guys. They come to this site in the guise of rafi lovers but their true colours show within a few days. For some time, I thought the name of one of these guys is satyanash (killer of truth) but I later realised he doesn’t have the second “a” in his name. In the wake of the satyam scandal, however, anything with “satya” is highly suspect; an audit needs to be conducted before we can believe anything he says. And there’s another orkut babe who lectures us that we are not real lovers of music, that we hate everyone other than rafi, …. And he justifies that by citing an md who made the most malicious and spiteful comment any md can make about any singer.
Suddenly all these ardent music lovers have realised the contributions of this great md, whose name I can vouch they didn’t know till a few months ago, let alone know a single song of his. And, all of a sudden, they have become great fans of ghantasala and mehdi hassan. I have a simple suggestion; form a group called “united against rafi” (uar) and then come to us. We’ll take care of you.
In my youth, we rafians believed in the simple motto: “one word against the farishta and you are de..”. Amen.
THAT WAS THE POST MR ANIL JI, IS IT A POST TO APPRECIATE ? SATYANSH ji is great in his posts, so also vitthal ji, a rafi lover and you might have well seen the dignified discussion in kishore forum in various threads.
Mr. Anil
I think it is not fair to bring unpleasant comparison between various artists. Each has his own specialisation and are accordingly masters in their own areas. I request you kindly have a look at my post 263 in “divine voice of devotional kishore” article here, it will certainly be of immense importance for you.
Let us enjoy true music given to us by all the great by gone playback legends of the past, and in any language an artist remains an artist. And when we see an artist, we should apply artistic bent of mind, then we will see the beautiful result for any artist.
Thanks.
Anil bhai,
Pehle to dhanyavaad aapka ke aapne is nacheez ko ek achha music lover samjha.. Ek rafi fans se compliment milna bahut badi baat hai, hum aapke abhari hai.
Anilji, main Manna ya Mehdi Hasaan ko koi agenda leke support nahi kiya. Mere kuchh notions hai, har jagah Rafi sahab best nahi the( na hi Guruji), aur un un jagahon pe agar koi unko best kehta hai to main pratikriya karta hoon. Bas itna hi, classical mein mujhe Mannaji aur Ghantasala zyada competent lagte hai Rafiji se. Comedy, sad aur philosophical mein Kishoreda. Ghazal mein Talat Mehmood aur Mehedi Hasaan. Romantic mein Guruji aur Rafiji dono apne alag alag andazzon mein mujhe pasand hai. To in cheezon mein agar koi Rafiji ko betaaj badshah bolega to main 1-2 points to rakh hi sakta hoon na?( as a sangeet premi)
Ab main bata doon kaha pe main Rafiji ko king maanta hoon- bhajan aur qawalli. Ji haan, weh badshah hi the in mein. Agar in mein koi kisi dusre ko king kehta hai( unfortunately for you and me, kisine aesa kiya nahi ab tak), to main zaroor Rafiji ke liye ladunga aur poore points ke saath.
ek baar fir se shukriya bhaijaan..
Anil ji,
I hope you are the same anil who ran away from the divine voice thread after getting good bashing from Lalit Ji, who was also a classical musician and again now you have surfaced here to create halla on the beautiful discussion by taking up arguments (childish) with another classical musicians, srivas ji etc. . It is plainly seen that it is the rafi fans who have again started projecting disputes, notably for rafi again, whose limitations paramjeet ji and others have clearly exposed. By the way, It appears that you are also a KJY fan, we welcome you to share his gems so that we expect a dignified discussion to follow. No body is here to object, as in rafi forum. True music discussion is always welcome here.
Next, your statement KJY and Manna state that despited low technical training by rafi, rafi could create magic than KJY and Manna and that is why KJY & SPB love rafi. Well, without training also, I have seen in many TV programmes, that even 4 to 5 years children are able to sing excellently tough compositions also and I have seen many including SPB and others saying that these children are really greater than established talents, as at such tender age thery are singing like that. What do you say?
What a childish & hillarious statement you have made my dear anil?
Anil, the word “perfection” means perfection only. There is a lot of distinction between “contribution with limited training and creating magic” and “contribution with expert training & creating magic” and the “perfection” word finds perfection only in the latter i.e contribution with expert training. It cannot be said that with limited training a magic has been created, even if it so, it lacks in perfection according to the “perfection theory”. So for instance, when rafi has limited training, from perfection angle, the rendition too will be to that extent only and you cannot compare the same with the “perfection of rendition with expert training as it fully conforms with the perfection theory”.
So going by the theory, manna, yesudas and other technically trained might be surely ahead of mohd rafi. Coming to Manna, Yesudas in comparison to ghantasala, I am with kishore fan, that it is the unique and magnificient voice of ghantasala which makes the difference for attraction in his renditions. The issue is if one has magnificient voice (for e.g. rafi) then technical perfection is low, and If one has good technical perfection (for e.g. yesudas, manna) then the Magnificient voice factor lacks, whereas in case of ghantasala both magnificient voice and technical perfection are unique – there is the difference anil ji, I hope you agree with me and these points have been agreed by many.
NICE MUSICAL DISCUSSIONS ARE FOLLOWING HERE ANIL JI, I REQUEST YOU TO SHARE REAL GEMS OF KJY AS WELL FOR DISCUSSION, AS VITTHAL JI IS CONTRIBUTING SONGS OF MANY SINGERS. DIGNIFIED DISCUSSION IS ALWAYS WELCOME AND HOPE EVERYBODY SUPPORTS THAT.
Anil,
Let’s drop it and start afresh. I’m really bored of these comparisons. If you’d like, let’s simply discuss music, traits/skills of singers, MDs and hope everyone is respectful to all legends from now on.
“…I’d request you to visit youtube, click on any Rafi-Kishore duet video and scroll down to the comments. A word of caution too, do the exercise at your own risk because you’d find filth galore…”
I did see the comments on some videos and it is disappointing, hope it gets better.
“…Think of a situation where you are exclusively debating with the people you mentioned plus Manish (someone who could qualify to be ‘balanced’ according to you) and you are not trying to teach them something; you’d have a real good time… right?…”
Yes. I must add I never try to teach anybody anything. My disclaimer always precedes my opinions, be it on mohdrafi.com, here or even on my website “…I can’t even come close to singing the songs of these legends exactly like they did, but I have a decent ear for music and most importantly good guidance…”.
“…It’s not that Rafi fans are intrinsically ruffians and Kishore fans liberal, better-enlightened folks…”
Sure, know many Rafi fans personally, some very close and they are all good people :). The Rafi-fanatics (not genuine fans) that we were looking at were the ones on mohdrafi.com and this Kishore website.
“…Speaking of Paramjeet correcting people, have you ever seen him defending Rafi?…”
Yes. He has defended Rafi.
“…You have highlighted the issue of some Rafi fans trying to pull down people from the rival camp; but haven’t you seen them (Mr.Haldar included) praising KK especially and others (like RDB)?…”
Not as much; they have said some really nasty things about Salil, RDB, AB, Lata, etc. IMO Haldar ji feels that RDB wronged Rafi and he tends to correct people when they say otherwise about the RDB-Rafi combo. Yes, I have seen people say that Kishore is a good singer. The difference is that they generally add “not as good as Rafi”, “Rafi was miles ahead”, “like showing a candle to the sun”, etc. and that’s where we differ. IMO they have different skills and are technically very comparable. Depending on what one likes, they might tend to be inclined to one singer or the other.
“…let me try and visit your site and may be we can exchange our ‘musical’ views over there…”
Look forward to it.
“…The list of songs I dont have; but may be I can help you find out someone who’s having it…”
Thank you. I believe a very kind collector is going to share it with me soon. Will let you know how it goes.
Rafifan ji,
Not sure if I’ve read your posts, as I was under the impression there are a few people that go by the name of “Rafifan”. I believe I got a couple of requests on my website from different Rafifans as well. Are you one of them? Surely you sound like one of the neutral music lovers too and none of us are any sort of authorities in deciding who is better. We are just listeners, some slightly more qualified than others and all of us with our own limitations. Like I said “…This is the end of this topic for me. I only like to partake in discussions on music and feel it’s wrong for us to get into these comparisons…”. I’m really done and unlike how I stopped writing in the Rafi site before, I would write but not get into comparisons at all. Hope good Rafi fans like you guys themselves stop the Rafi-fanatics from degrading other legends and talking nonsense. Knowing that there are people like you around, I’m sure that is possible. Please do continue to exchange information and engage in healthy discussions on music. It is fun to read everybody’s opinion. Attemtping a change of topic here, what mood do you like to listen to Rafi the most in? Generally, what music do you listen to at different times of the day (different singers, MDs)?
Siva,
Happy New Year to you too. Please do write on this site as well and share your knowledge with others.
Anil ji,
You have not replied to my queries – kishore overtaking rafi ? Post 1613 pl.
Escaping nature surfacing again for which replies are not available.
Anil ji,
You have not responded to my post 1617 – Should I take that again escapism is beginning when some questions are asked? as generally happens when some genuine questions are asked. Anyhow, It is nice and strength to us that classical musicians like Srivas ji, Vitthal ji, and Now Khan ji, & surajit dada from hindusthani field too are here to correct all the false notions. Let us take the ride and enjoy, music lovers.
Classical musicians with due respect,
Kindly do post some nice comments on kishore kumar songs as well, and my request is to please entertain kishore lovers as well. It will be interesting.
MODERATOR JI
Thank you very very much for encouraging real musical participation. May this site grow in size and become a example for all.
Khan sir,
Thanks for your views sir. I am surprised to see sir, some people, are discussing on ragas without knowing them. I request your esteemed majesty with hindusthani music knowledge to please enlighten on the raga in which “sankara” song of SPB is composed, as some are under false impression that it is composed in the sankarabharanam raga sir.
This is the link for the song of SPB sir.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJDnGLyDkU8&feature=related
I would like to hear the raga details from esteemed musicians like you sir, and I will sing praises along with you for the raga which you mention – I will only leave with saying that the song is composed in the raga starting with M…….. in carnatic as well as hindusthani and will re-iterate after khan ji confirms it in hindusthani. Over to you khan sir.
Anil,
Do not get excited my dear friend. Do you think “Sankara” song was composed in the sankarabharanam raga ? If you think so, let me confirm you are wrong my dear. I do not want to further comment on that song as I got your knowledge please.
And topic on Sankarabharanam raga was a different discussion and I am again confirming you in no uncertain terms that ghantasala alone is the best example for knowing the beauty & melody of the raga and I had posted one song related to that in my previous post. I am sure you might have heard it and got carried away, as it happens, but are reluctant to post your views. It is upto you. Finally, for your information, I know many things about SPB as well, which i do not like to discuss here and I know close friends who are technically qualified and associated with reputed music directors and classical musicians of the south and who incidentally have much knowledge and association with SPB as well. Your comments on SPB commenting on ghantasala on demand is a pure fantasy, if you are happy with it, please be where you are, I do not want to make much hype and enlighten you for the same. Incidentally, SPB learnt playback singing from the genius we are discussing here. I think you know that.
By the way, The song omkara nadana in film sankarabharanam is the only full song where ‘basically” sankarabharanam raga is used by K V Mahadevan ji, for your information. and songs in sankarabharanam film such as broche varevura are originally copied from the tunes of the saint composers for your information my dear anil.
Anil, contd…
By the way I am not a ghantasala fan for your information, but since you were quoting about ghantasala’s talents, I wanted to make few points here. Nothing to take serious. Nice discussing with you. All the best.
Anil,
Both rafi and ghantasala are equally great playback singers and both are equally attractive in their songs and versatile contribution, one in hindi and other mostly in telugu. Ghantasala has rendered hundreds of songs in tamil and kannada languages as well for your information, and some songs in malayalam also, I think you are aware. In fact, he was first musician from the south, as KJY himself claims, that whose contribution has been the main cause for popularity of south indian music. Thus, he was the father of southern playback singing from whom incidentally, all others namely, kjy, spb, p suseela, s janaki and others (I have personally heard from p suseela and s janaki) have learnt techniques of playback singing from ghantasala. This is the extract of K J Yesudas speech for your information.
http://www.ghantasala.info/theman/kjj.html
And as a musician, ghantasala clearly stands ahead of rafi, and of course, KJY is technically well qualified, I agree with you, but again from Perfect unique voice factor, ghantasala is ahead of Yesudas as well as the former’s voice was more melodious and unique than yesudas too.
And further, in tamil, sounderrajan is popularly called as tamil ghantasala for your information – your own words of benchmark factor. And sounderrajan and SPB both were introduced by ghantasala in film world for your information. Ghantasala had only one limitation, his deteriorating health factor from mid 60’s, which was the main reason for his leaving tamil and kannada languages and concentrating more on telugu (even in telugu in latter stages I understand he used SPB for one song he composed due to his bad health). Otherwise, he would have completely routed out all others for longer period, as in 50’s he was numero one in southern playback singing. I have seen no singer who can render padyams as beautifully as ghantasala renders, of course the beauty comes by virtue of his gifted majestic voice which is obviously the perfect male voice.
Anil ji,
One doubt from your posts which you alone could clarify I think ? You believe rafi could not have rendered sankarabharanam raga as effectively as SPB did (which is again a dispute matter according to classical musicians), but you are quite sure SPB did not mention ghantasala, well SPB cannot mention ghantasala. SPB, can he have the guts, to comment on the stalwart ghantasala for sankarabharanam raga ? I agree with Srivas ji, it was a childish comment – challenging the talent of best of the stalwarts. Another point, as Srivas ji states ghantasala’s excellence in the raga, and according to you rafi’s limitations of the raga, clearly proves ghantasala ahead of rafi again from your post. Moreso, Khan ji who is here again clearly confirms it.
Next, not a single day passes in SPB TV Programmes without his mentioning and praising ghantasala – I have seen most of SPB programmes for your information. Who said, on demand, he makes statements – that is you fallacious imagination. You can confirm this fact from Mr. Prabhanjan himself, and he too will confirm the same, I am sure, as he has already confirmed this earlier in one post.
And Next, as a complete singer and musician, KJY does not match upto ghantasala as a singer, at best he can be brought on par with P B Srinivas, who too incidentally is technically well qualified. Ghantasala’s voice is more melodious with soft and sharper touch vis-a-vis KJY’s voice, of whom I have heard many songs. Ghantasala’s voice is perfect male and majestic voice – which no other singer had, frankly including mohd. rafi, whose voice, I have personally seen, is disputed by many too. However, rafi’s voice is melodious and attractive as compared to other singers, of course after ghantasala.
Even as one Mr. Kishore fan puts here, kishore kumar had to some extent that type of voice, to some extent matching ghantasala’s. Kishore’s voice of 50’s was of that type, and unfortunately, in 50’s his real talent could not be exposed. By the time he shot into fame in 70’s I think, he was not as melodious as he was in the 50’s & 60’s. In fact, I like his 50’s songs better than his Aradhana songs to be frank.
Khan sahab,
thanks for your post after a long time sir. I welcome you to this site. Please, if you could, pay a visit do divine voice thread for some interesting discussions on music sir.
Dear Srivas saheb,
It has been since a long time I have posted in rafi forum. An interesting post by you on “sankarabharanam” rag which is the “Bhilaval thaat” in Hindusthani music and is certainly the king of the rags in carnatic. I fully agree with you, it is one of the best of the melodious rags and yes, only individuals with melodious voice and technically well qualified can alone bring beauty to the rag as it encompasses all the seven notes in itself.
Coming to discussion on playback singers, rafi sahab had a melodious voice among all the hindi playback singers along with lata mangeshkar ji as well, and both could mostly do justice to all the songs which they had sung, from the hindusthani point of view.
Kishore fan sahab, Sri vas sahab & Vitthal sahab,
I had listened to ghantasala sahab in rafi forum through one Mr. Gani sahab, and I can frankly confirm that he is far ahead of all the playback singers whom I have heard till today. Whether it be melody, wider voice range, depth in classical singing, switching of notes, hitting and sustaining of notes quite comfortably even at extreme high pitches, perfection from rag angle, ghantasala sahab is clearly far ahead of all other playback singers notably who have been discussed here viz., rafi, manna de, talat, lata or yesudas, spb etc. from the south. There is no doubt in that. It is not a surprise at all that ghantasala sahab has been admired in kishore forum as well, which is due to his incomparable genius and I was sure long back, any musician whosoever hears ghantasala sahab clearly gets carried away. Keep it up music lovers. All the best.
I wanted to post here because I saw incidentally this khan sahab’s name propping up in some post here and wanted to share some views, of course, which were shared by me earlier already in rafi forum.
May almighty god bless all the people.
Srivas ji,
A fitting musical reply – appreciations sir. One of my favourite songs Kanarara – by ghantasala you have posted. Thanks for the same. I am sharing the same with Arghya ji. The king of the ragas – sankarabharanam raga is indeed stupendous.
Dear Ghantasala and Ghantasala&Kishore fans:
This is the source on which comments were based (posted by a Ghantasala fan himself)
“I have seen the “Paaduta Teeyaga” programme of SPB on 21/12/2009 on ETV telugu and yes, I too felt uncomfortable on the comments made by SPB. In fact, SPB quoted that so great singer rafi rendering the “sankara” song might not have achieved the recognition it ihas achieved in telugu by SPB. I think, if I am not wrong, SPB did not mention Ghantasala here with reference to the song (he mentioned only rafi), though he & Viswanath subsequently jointly quoted that the popularity wise, the song would not have achieved prominence similar to SPB, if the same was sung by ghantasala or rafi.
Of course, both SPB and Sri Viswanath, as you said, speedily closed the issue by stating that both ghantasala and rafi were “Aradhya daivalu” (gods whom we worship) and again Sri Viswanath quoting that after hearing Ghantasala he cannot hear SPB.”
Tell me, who’s lying?
I also suggest you take some time reading the posts before jumping in with some response seeing the name of your favourite singer and sensing he’s in some sort of danger.
I didn’t comment about the ‘raag shankarabharanam’, I’m not qualified enough to do that though I’m aware it’s a ‘sampoorna raaga’ and is the equivalent of the major scale. I was talking about the song ‘shankara…’- the most famous one of the movie and the one SPB was talking about. I repeat- Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to make THIS PARTICULAR SONG as appealing to common folks as SPB sir did. Ghantasalaji I’m leaving out of picture since SPB sir himself (I choose to go by the source I’ve reproduced above) didn’t mention his name. It’s not about having a better grasp of the ‘raag’, it’s about the style- this particular song has the typical Carnatic short-n-sharp ‘taan’ at every turn. It’s also about the feel- difficult to convey for someone who doesn’t know the language. And I’m not a fool to state that Rafi sahab can’t sing a basic ‘raag’.
Let me comment something about the so-called shortcoming of SPB in the songs of this movie. When the creators of the movie approached SPB, they knew what they wanted; otherwise they’d have gone for anyone ranging from Dr.BMK to Dr.K J Yesu Das. They wanted someone who could act out the song and convey things in a proper filmy (read obvious) manner and they got it from the singer. Then who can complain? If classical wizards think the singing didn’t capture the essence of the ‘raag’, what’s the big deal? People absolutely lapped up the songs and the classical music got a shot in the arm (though temporarily) because of the movie.
Over to SPB’s idols- I have listened to/ read him stating on several occassions, sometimes unsolicited that Rafi is his greatest idol, he places Yesu Das next. He has high regards for S.Janaki too. He has spoken highly of Ghantasalaji too, but that’s mostly on demand. May be Prabhanjan, if he’s around, can throw light on it.
Anil, -1616 – your views here – totally biased and without facts.
I am a south indian classically trained carnatic musician and seeing your post on “sankarabharanam Raga” – was interested to quote some facts. I hope you will honestly take it seriously.
“Now to SPB’s statement; I haven’t seen the video but if he did say that Rafi can’t sing ‘Shankarabharanam’ as well as he himself did, he was speaking plain truth. The song was set in pure Carnatic raag and style and in chaste Kannada language. Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to do as well. The only issue with Balu sir’s statement is the interpretations people have come up with. He wasn’t selling Rafi sahab short; he wouldn’t do that in the wildest of dreams- not to someone he virtually worships. Now, why did SPB sir mentioned Rafi’s name and not Yesu Das’ or some other singer’s? Only because he finds Rafisahab to be the benchmark and for no other reason. ”
Well, your last sentence is a lie. Ghantasala is equally mentioned along with rafi in the programme, which I have personally seen, and SPB calls both rafi and ghantasala as gods whom I worship. So is ghantasala not a benchmark ?
Next, Sankarabharanam Raga, with due respect to SPB (specially Prabhanjan ji to excuse ), I was given to understand that not only SPB, even the music director K V Mahadevan were criticised stating that the perfect qualities of sankarabharanam raga have not been found in the film “sankarabharanam”. Criticism on K V Mahadevan ji (i admire him for his social movies) on film sankarabharanam too were part of recent TV programme, which I had personally seen. I was also given to understand that it was none other than Balamuralikrishna himself, the carnatic stalwart was not satisfied with the sankarabharanam effect in the film. But I am least interested in such points, but am forced to expose your limited knoweldge in your posts. As a carnatic musician myself, I can confirm the limitations of sankarabharanam raga in the film “sankarabharanam”
And I am plainly told by musicians , if you have to enjoy highest pure quality sankarabharanam raga in films perfectly, ghantasala stands the best example. There is no doubt in that. The raga is so melodious in nature, I am aware, and in films I believe that only voice range similar to ghantasala or perhaps even rafi can create wonders with the raga, specially the former.
And rafi cannot singing the raga, simply ridiculous the word I can use. I will try to come up, if time permits, with rafi’s excellent renditions in the raga, for your information, how rafi can effectively render the raga.
A BRIEF NOTE ON SANKARABHARANAM RAGA / ITS QUALITIES
It is a sampurna raga consisting of all the seven notes (sa to ni) and undoubtedly regarded as the one the best melodious ragas of all the ragas and as “king of the ragas”. Only melodious voices can bring out the true qualities of the raga. Not only sankarabharanam, even kalyani, bilahari, mohana, hindola , Abheri, Kanada, begada, Kambhoji Ragas to name a few, only gifted melodious voices can bring beauty to the ragas, as the qualities of these ragas are such in nature that even technically trained people fail in bringing out the perfect qualities in these ragas.
The Note “ma” is generally mixed with the “ga” note, to give beauty to the sankarabharanam raga.
By the way, meanwhile, please do not forget to give your comments as true music lover, to this one in sankarabharanam raga by ghantasala – the perfect melody & qualities of sankarabharanam raga, how it is greatly composed & sung : you will get what it is ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiobIYE96Xw
(the song starts from 1:06)
Dear friends, sorry -I am violating my own statement that it was my last post. The only point I tried to make was that you never write much articles appreciating the good songs of KK and are more interested in going for aruguments. I had said the same thing in the mohdrafi.com site also.
I do not like fanaticism by anyone-in fact when things were becoming too shrill, I stopped seeing that site also for some time.
Agreed in that site also few over-zealous fans go overboard, but at least we have many good articles appreciating the songs of Rafi sahab, the difference here is that you are more interested in attacking Rafi. Anyhow your last published article about KK remains dated 5 months old.
The angry reactions against me calling me oversmart, hypocrite etc shows the extreme reactions. There is no need for anyone to comment on this post as it is my absolutely last post.. I shall remain a fan of Mukesh, KK, Talat, Manna da, Hemant Kumar and Mahindra Kapoor-also TMS, KJ & SPB from South-(if anyone of the KK fans had understood my post correctly ) -of course as I said Rafi is closer to my heart than all others and most of we Rafi fans try to at least become as gentle as he was…..hence no hard feelings from my side
Chalte chalte mere yeh geet yaad rakhna, kabhi alvida na kehna—one of the masterpices by KK….WISHING YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR..
Siva
Hello anil ji – 1616, – You are exposed pl. I present the following strong evidences against your post. I hope you will be honest in replying.
In divine voice blog , Both rafi and ghantasala are only mentioned and not yesudas please – post 365 If rafi is benchmark, why ghantasala was mentioned. Even in post 366 the same is confirmed. It is confirmed you have ignored ghantasala despite he being mentioned there, but wanted to put up a defence against rafi – you are exposed clearly. That clearly shows your partial exposure, again partially exposing bias towards rafi, (this is where the problem arises) and shadingly not referring to ghantasala, despite being mentioned there. SPB had clearly referred both of them as worshipping gods there. What do you “plainly” say on that ?
Since you have mentioned, i wanted to clarify. You have not carefully understood my post, I believe. No body coming close, even our surajit dada has confirmed. I hope in RMIM etc, which you were mentioning, surajit ji is also active participant. Next , you were mentioning, Sanjeev Ramabhadran ji, in RMIM, a musician himself, i invite your attention to posts in true voice of rafi forum by one Mr. Pardus, where in he states that Sanjeev Ramabhadran ji rates ghantasala as the best among filmy classical singers. So was confirmed by Surajit ji and others as well, & Mr. Khan, another hindusthani musician in true voice, as well holds the same view, you might well remember. Next manna & yesudas vs. ghantasala, the latter had a “magnificient voice” having great depth capable of even taking wonderful high pitches mixed with technical talent, there makes the difference for his attractive renditions.
Kishorefanji:
This is not an answer to your post as such; but I think I have to make certain things clear. I don’t know how much familiar you are with South Indian film music and classical music. Ghantasalaji was a master in Carnatic classical music who ventured into film world, composed several songs and sang songs composed by him and also by others. That he was technically great goes without saying. But to say noone from the film world is close is an over-statement. Manna da is definitely comparable as a singer and Yesu Das sir can rival him any day. You can find it out for yourself by arranging a trip to Chennai Musical Academy when Das sir gives his concert (katcheri). If that’s not possible you can very well search youtube videos of Das sir’s concerts and some of his film classical/semi classical songs, especially in Malayalam. You can also search the net and find out what some of the finest classical exponents (Dr.BMK for instance) think about Yesu Das.
Okay, both Mannada and Das sir are technically better equipped than Rafi sahab. But what do these luminaries say about Rafi sahab? More or less the same thing- that God has blessed Rafi sahab in a different way. What they mean is that Rafi sahab could do with his voice, with limited training, what they themselves can’t do despite their superior technical strength. Are these two playing over-modest? They can’t be, they don’t have to be actually. Mannada might have said that Lataji is technically superior to Rafisahab and he is right. But did he say that Lataji is a better singer? I don’t think he did; rather he mostly keeps these two on par (from whatever I’ve read/ seen). Now to SPB’s statement; I haven’t seen the video but if he did say that Rafi can’t sing ‘Shankarabharanam’ as well as he himself did, he was speaking plain truth. The song was set in pure Carnatic raag and style and in chaste Kannada language. Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to do as well. The only issue with Balu sir’s statement is the interpretations people have come up with. He wasn’t selling Rafi sahab short; he wouldn’t do that in the wildest of dreams- not to someone he virtually worships. Now, why did SPB sir mentioned Rafi’s name and not Yesu Das’ or some other singer’s? Only because he finds Rafisahab to be the benchmark and for no other reason.
Satyansh:
I have made it clear that I don’t include Arghya and Paramjeet among what I call a ‘typical’ Kishore fan. It is your good fortune that you have now guys like these here to debate with. Let some others (I don’t want to name them) enter the scene and then you will find out what they are capable of. Not only that most of them find Kishoreda to be the best in everything, they also find it their duty to hurl choicest of abuses at other singers/MDs (Rafi being singled out for obvious reasons). Religion is very much a part of the parcel. If you are still in doubt, I’d request you to visit youtube, click on any Rafi-Kishore duet video and scroll down to the comments. A word of caution too, do the exercise at your own risk because you’d find filth galore.
Coming back to your experience in mohdrafi.com vis-a-vis this site, let me say the differences are bound to be there. For one thing, you were dealing with a lot more number of people, all fierce Rafi fans (myself included) and you were trying to change what is belief to them and notion to you. So some strong repercussion was always on the card. Think of a situation where you are exclusively debating with the people you mentioned plus Manish (someone who could qualify to be ‘balanced’ according to you) and you are not trying to teach them something; you’d have a real good time… right? This is the kind of situation you have here now. It’s not that Rafi fans are intrinsically ruffians and Kishore fans liberal, better-enlightened folks.
Speaking of Paramjeet correcting people, have you ever seen him defending Rafi? He defended Manna when up against Rafi and Jagjit Singh and Mehdi Hassan for their anti-Rafi remark. He is absolutely entitled to his views especially as a Kishore fan and I don’t have to make any noise out of it nor would I want to make much noise out of the self-claimed musical maestro’s branding Rafi as a crooner without dimension.
You have highlighted the issue of some Rafi fans trying to pull down people from the rival camp; but haven’t you seen them (Mr.Haldar included) praising KK especially and others (like RDB)? Infact I haven’t seen the reverse (of KK fans praising Rafi and his camp-wallas) much, except by Arghya.
That’s it for now.. let me try and visit your site and may be we can exchange our ‘musical’ views over there..
The list of songs I dont have; but may be I can help you find out someone who’s having it.
Vitthal ji – 1608
Certainly true, the 50’s & 60’s in HFM cannot be surpassed at any time. Such pure musical environment and the gems we received during those period by the “great” rafi sahab – generations are going to celebrate and no further question on that.
Again agree with you on telugu field too – about 50’s & 60’s which again cannot be surpassed – Naturally, because the “maestro” ghantasala ji was the emperor there.
Satyansh ji – 1612
Agree with you that all talk highly of ghantasala, sure because he was a exceptional genius as you said. This point I can fully support because, in my view, ghantasala was exceptional in delivering pure classical music (in my view pure classical music carries away all music lovers) in which he was specialised, and incidentally as well as fortunately the said classical music found its way into telugu fim music. Moreover, I really got excited when One Mr. Srivas ji, a carnatic musician in the divine blog was stating that classical music without losing its original sheen and quality had developed filmy wonder & style in telugu film music, credits only due to ghantasala, for sure due to his gifted talent. Another fascinating point which was shared by Mr Srivas ji, was the undoubtedly great “Siva Sankari song” of ghantasala was recorded in one take by the genius. This is simply superhuman. I had responded there, nothing would have been happier to me to love the great mohd. rafi sahab singing the song siva sankari, as a carnatic musician, a dream however, which cannot materialise. Satyansh ji, I agree ghantasala stands exceptional – a maestro genius with magnificient voice who as I understand that was an accomplised music director as well in the south having composed music for over 100 films – a great feat.
I hope you would have read my posts in rafi forum as well, wherein we respect legends “as they are by virtue of their talents and contribution ” (for instance the genius – ghantasala ji) and you would appreciate that without the factor “as they are by virtue…” it would be really difficult to accept the greatness factor of any artist only to please the fans of concerned artist. This is where, I think the differences and abuses start. Positive flow of information certainly is positive for all. I am fully with you in this regard.
Anil ji, you say
“If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess, let me say we are happy to live with it. After all, we have people like Yesu Das and SPB in our company. Yes, both these singers have declared that Rafi is indeed special (and even unique). SPB have infact made it clear that even Lata doesn’t belong to that class”.
Is it ?
Then you are caught. In divine voice blog here in post 365 and 366 there is information that SPB claims himself as better than rafi in one song. What do you say now for this? In fact we are given to understand that this statement is also given by One Shri Vishwanth along with SPB just last week on TV. Why you rafi fans do not discuss such issues and always simply quote so and so quoted rafi as …. Why you do not quote these points which were stated surprisingly against rafi (by his own admirers) To me, this is the first instance of SPB claiming himself as greater than rafi.
I have heard Yesudas – technically he also is certainly better than rafi for your information. And now SPB has also claimed so. And Rafi himself has claimed that he prefers manna. Many claim that even lata is technically better than rafi in hindi and so is manna de & I heard that even P B Srinivas from the south is ahead of rafi in this regard. But technically SPB or Yesudas or rafi or manna or lata, as Surajit Bose dada puts in divine voice blog, no body is even nearer to ghantasala.
And regarding rafi’s prowess or supremacy (rafi ji’s nice songs are greatly appreciated even by kishore fans for your information and we have utmost respect for rafi ji – but it is a geniune respect and not “bloated view” respect) or reign in bollywood it is well known that how kishore has emerged as the most preferred singer and here kishore was special. I need not talk much on this issue as all know about the great kishore and how he ONLY ONLY ONLY OVERTOOK RAFI IN HINDI.
There are certainly some fans who use unpleasant words when something is stated against their ‘favourite singer’ and this generally happens when some people (specially rafi fans to say) and moreover to say that his happens when they claim that their ‘favourite singer’ is best in each and every class which is a blatant lie (in particular with rafi as this has been proved in many cases). So your point of “bloated view” always remains and if you wish you can be content with it, but you have to appreciate the same feeling of tolerance towards other individuals as well.
Anil,
I don’t think you are barging in at all. This is a public forum and you should be free to opine as much as anybody else. I hope that this exchange clears another barrier and we can discuss music even more freely. I don’t remember seeing a Kishore fan instigate an argument and degrade any legend. If you’d be interested, I’m sure we can arrange an exchange of simple quotes from the past and I feel that Rafi fans would far outnumber Kishore fans in misbehavior. I do understand that you have spent a lot more time on these forums than me and I’ve merely read a few posts here and there and came back again on a friend’s request.
I’m not making any hue and cry about Haldar ji’s statement. Myself and many others feel what he said is completely out of line. It cannot and should not be ignored. There is no point speculating if a [Kishore fan ever spoke to another “one word against our dada and you will be killed”?]. If one did, that would be out of line too and as cheap as the earlier statement. It does not make Haldar ji’s statement any less vulgar.
“…To your experience in the mohdrafi.com, let me say you would have been treated much worse in this site if you were to pit your favourite singer against Kishoreda in light songs when all those typical Kishore fans were around. You have only people like Arghya and Paramjeet and some Ghantasala fans to content with here as of now but try stating something ‘neutral’ like “Kishoreda is a good singer but Mannada scores over him in many areas of singing” when those hardcore people are around. Believe me, you’ll have it…”
lol – Sure, I don’t know what would have happened. So far I’ve had good experiences with Kishore fans. I’m not sure if a Kishore fan would say that Kishore was the best at everything. I’ve never ever heard a Kishore fan say that. KishoreFan and all others talk very highly of Ghantasala (rightly so, he is a GENIUS). Paramjeet ji himself came on the defense [Post 267 in “Divine Voice Thread”] when something was said about Manna Dey. Looks like a true music lover to me, he corrects people when he feels people have made an incorrect statement and that includes everybody. I had simply disagreed with Arghya’s opinion and Paramjeet ji made many valid counterpoints and Arghya had no problems in appreciating Paramjeet ji’s views. The “neutral” keyword seems like a potshot. It’s a good discussion, let’s not do that. It is pointless. I keep saying this, my favorite changes based upon the mahaul. Also, you are missing an important point of Rafi-fanatics bringing in region, religion, language, classism (to a lesser extent), etc. in music. That is horrible and would end up dividing people even further. We should NEVER do that. Can you show Kishore fans talking about legends like Rafi-fanatics have spoken about RDB, Salil, AB, etc.? Have you ever asked Rafi-fanatics to stop bringing region, religion, etc. into music?
“…Now, to say a Rafi fan cannot hold a ‘musical’ discussion is far off-mark…”
I did not say that. I can see how fan being an abbreviation for fanatic actually reads that way :). In my mind, the term fanatic now applies to a far more radical person (given the recent usage of the term). A fan to me is a balanced enthusiast. Of course, there are good Rafi fans as well – Sudip; another gentleman on mohdrafi.com from the Bangalore unit (I don’t remember his name); Nitish Sinha, who always shares his music with countless others without ever thinking what singer they like, Naveen Zalpari, etc.
“…If you want one, please name the platform and I’m more than happy to have it…”
You are always welcome to share your opinion with everybody and further substantiate it with examples. If you’d like to compile useful information on Rafi, I’d be glad to post it on my website to provide a counter-argument to my views on Rafi v/s Kishore. It would make for good reading and we could move the discussion there if it is about music alone. I know and respect that you had your reasons, but whenever you are ready you can start talking about the points we had in the other thread. Healthy discussions aside, comparisons are sickening. It is very annoying to stoop to a level where we have to start nit-picking on people who have given us so many songs. Wish it was more on the lines of traits/styles of different singers, etc. There are already a number of open points you can feel free to clarify at your convenience.
“…If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess…”
To say he is the best at everything is bloated. If somebody says Rafi was great in XYZ genres and feels he is their favorite, power to them. That is not the issue. Case in point is Vithal ji. He openly says he likes Rafi the most in HFM. However, he always maintains decent decor and shares gems from every singer with us. There is also Prabhanjan (SPB and Rafi fan), always neutral in his views. If you think I’m a Manna Dey fan alone (which I’m not), I will openly state here that I personally feel even Manna Dey was a close second to Kishore in terms of the purity of Kishore’s free-flowing khuli hui awaaz. Also, Rafi had the sweetest voice of all. There are no qualms in admitting that. I also find the extremely skilled Suresh Wadkar’s voice to be very sweet, wish he was utilized more. Every one of these legendary singers is better than others at some things and vice versa. The issue is that Rafi-fanatics claim that Rafi is the best at everything and deride every other singer and everybody else who did not share a bloated view of Rafi. These Rafi-fanatics are doing a disservice to the great Rafi.
Since we are exchanging info here, would you happen to have a list of all of Rafi and Manna Dey’s songs or do you know someone who can give me that info? I’d appreciate it.
Anil,
Some points are well taken but disagree with others. 365 & 366 posts in divine voice blog you may please refer – Manna is greatly appreciated than kishore. Regarding SPB also a mark/blot has fallen on him very recently if you see those posts. What do you say on that ? You will be surprised to see the happening, I am sure.
An important point you have completely missed – In divine voice column I have shared not only ghantasala songs, but p suseela, spb as well for your kind information. Discussion is also on manna dey as well along with kishore kumar and rafi please. There is no confusion there among music lovers and no abusing of legends please. And pleasantly as true music lovers arghya ji, paramjeet ji, Satyansh ji or others have also contributed there including some western songs for your information pl.
Can music lovers discuss such freely about other talents in rafi forum ? Can you please confirm.
Satyansh:
Hope you wouldn’t mind my barging into this. I can’t agree with your views on Rafi fans. If you must form an opinion on the fans of Rafi sahab and Kishoreda on the basis of what they write in the internet, I would say the Kishore fans are, generally, (much) worse-behaved. I am not speaking about people like Arghya or Surajit but there are scores of them who goes into personal abuses using filthiest of languages. I agree there are such folks among the Rafi fans too but their number is much less. You don’t have to look anywhere else but the initial posts in this particular thread to see the pattern. You seem to be making much hue and cry about the statement made by Mr.Haldar whenever you can, though in reality he was reproducing something in his own words the fans of Rafi sahab used to talk among themselves. Can you say confidently that no Kishore fan ever spoke to another “one word against our dada and you will be killed”?
To your experience in the mohdrafi.com, let me say you would have been treated much worse in this site if you were to pit your favourite singer against Kishoreda in light songs when all those typical Kishore fans were around. You have only people like Arghya and Paramjeet and some Ghantasala fans to content with here as of now but try stating something ‘neutral’ like “Kishoreda is a good singer but Mannada scores over him in many areas of singing” when those hardcore people are around. Believe me, you’ll have it.
Now, to say a Rafi fan cannot hold a ‘musical’ discussion is far off-mark. If you want one, please name the platform and I’m more than happy to have it. Then there are Rafi fans (like Sanjeev Ramabhadran) who are musically well accomplished and who participate in the discussions (in RMIM and elsewhere).
If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess, let me say we are happy to live with it. After all, we have people like Yesu Das and SPB in our company. Yes, both these singers have declared that Rafi is indeed special (and even unique). SPB have infact made it clear that even Lata doesn’t belong to that class.
Satyansh 1605
A true musical view…
Each and every word you have spoken out is not only a bare truth but also a lesson to be learnt for everyone..
That is why I insisted to close this thread.. To keep it open means to keep it open for invitation again for some more migratory birds to come and start twittering for no reason whatsoever..
I can take “auspicious knowledge” from all- Manna fans, Talat fans, True Rafi fans- but not from those “mahagyanis” from mohdrafi.com, who dont know how to respect bygone legends. 😀
Kishore fan ji
Kishore certainly overtook rafi – true in a certain way in 70’s and it was also true that the great rafi could not again regain the “charm & majesty in his voice” which he had in 50’s & 60’s. But, personally speaking, kishore fan ji, the 50’s & 60’s environment was unsurpassable. If kishore too was dominant at that time, it would have been nice, as I found kishore’s voice to be more clearer in 50’s & 60’s. Moreover, in telugu field too, the 50’s and 60’s is unsurpassable, as it was a clear reign by ghantasala in absolute terms. Even rafi had failed in telugu before the telugu legend, which you are aware.
Kishorefan bhai,
Main tang aa chuka hoon is topic se.. naseehat bade logon se sunna acchha lagta hai, aese logo se nahi jinki khud ki niyat bigdi ho..
Aur agar Myk ya koi bhi aur yeh sochta hai ke Rafi chhodke aur koi gayak hi nahi hai ya Rafi ke aas paas bhi koi nahi bhatak sakta to aese logon pe taras khaiye ke unko sangeet ki samajh kitni kam hai..
1603 – Arghya ji.
Nice point you stated, I fully appreciate.
“Better to close something in an amicable enviornment rather than a bitter one..”
So that the amicable environment remains. Nice.
Kishore fan ji – 1604 & paramjeet ji, -1601
I am fascinated by your “rememberance factor” – Both of you remember many things and reproduce at appropriate intervals.
There should always be a healthy opposition – true , otherwise truth cannot be explored and balance cannot be maintained.
Even in house of parliament opposition party has importance, otherwise it is really tough to maintain balance.
Thus, to be in rafi’s favour rafi fans like MYK ji, (kishore fan ji – I believe MYK ji is a reformed rafi fan now subsequent to his discussion in other blog here) should be there to constructively argue and similarly, in favour of kishore, the likes of paramjeet ji and kishore fan ji too be there again on constructive terms. And for ghantasala, I am there ha ha ha…. paramjeet ji. It is long time that we have shared some nice moments.
Siva [Post 1595],
I agree that fans of all singers should focus more on the positives of the singer than in comparisons. I feel you might be one of the neutral music lovers who saw this discussion in the later stages, however if you read it from the beginning you’ll get a picture of what is going on. I think your statement “…I find in your site there is a never ending comparison and talk about Rafi vs Kishore…” is misleading. Last I checked the Rafi site there were still comparisons going-on this time by matching up singers/MDs with cricketers. Going by what the hooligan there would imply, Rafi was the all-rounder and the best. What would you say about these comparisons via association? lol. It is funny and ridiculous beyond belief.
I’m totally with you if you tell those Rafi-fanatics to stop talking gibberish. Many like me ended up being part of this ridiculous comparison mainly because of Rafi-fanatics trying to prove Rafi is the best at everything and deriding every other singer and everybody else who did not share a bloated view of Rafi. There are so many degrading comments made by Rafi-fanatics that Paramjeet ji, Surajit, Vithal ji, KishoreFan, Arghya, etc. have listed numerous times. I’ve read his post by a guy who goes by the name “myk” where he says that people don’t like Rafi because he is from Lahore and he is Muslim. They talk about Kishore converting to Islam; they called people like Arghya, etc. regional fanatics because they like Kishore. They have called RDB, Salil, AB, etc. horrible things. Did you stop them from doing that? Can you honestly say that Kishore fans speak the same way about Naushad? Why don’t these people who bring religion into music say that Naushad supported Rafi because he was Muslim? FYI … I respect Naushad’s reasons and am glad the team of Naushad/Rafi/Shakeel gave us all those gems.
What religion do you think myk is? Couldn’t Arghya say he is a Muslim and therefore supporting Rafi, just like they say Arghya supports Kishore because he is a Bengali? Mind you, I know many Muslims who love Kishore and I also know Muslims who have openly said that they support Rafi because he was Muslim and some idiots also say he was from Pakistan lol. You will find crazy people on both sides, irrespective or religion, fan-club, etc. However, Rafi fans have crossed the line of decency long back. Do you remember Haldar ji giving death threats to people?
I understand and support Paramjeet ji’s views that Rafi-fanatics constantly ridicule legends and then try to act smart because they can’t hold a discussion on music. They will change it into trivia or some genius would start talking about region, religion or even laptops and adaptors (lol… I’m not kidding about the laptop, I’ve read one such post too). I’ve never seen Paramjeet ji be disrespectful.
This is the end of this topic for me. I only like to partake in discussions on music and feel it’s wrong for us to get into these comparisons. I hope Rafi-fanatics also stop their false propoganda in trying to show Rafi as the best at everything.
Lastly, you will soon find a bundle of information being available to people on Kishore Kumar. Also, I’m looking for a list of all of Rafi and Manna Dey’s songs and would appreciate it if a neutral music lover could help me with that.
Mr. Siva – Kishore fan here
Tirade against rafi – by Paramjeet ji, – Kindly do not try to put false points please. My following arguments – could you please answer ?
Some rafi fans specifically (MYK ji – with whom we have frequent arguments) argue to such a level and in such a manner about rafi that it gives impression that no other artist exists other than rafi. I can show numerous comments of this gentleman where in he writes in such a way about rafi, as paramjeet ji says, that rafi is a superman. I am sure, he wants to convey indirectly that other singers are no where close to rafi, which in absolute terms is ridiculous the term I can use.
Rafi fans themselves state that rafi preferred manna dey in classical renditions, in absolute terms, which is cent percent true. Manna de was ahead in classical renditions than mohd. rafi ji.
The natural Voice of Kishore kumar, without much formal training, clearly mesmerises a listener, even astonishing classical musicians, both hindusthani and carnatic, for your information and it is worthwhile mentioning that the following enjoyed by kishore kumar is vast even today.
So when rafi fans project rafi ji as a superman, indirectly showing other legends in a low manner, what is the wrong if paramjeet ji has responded in tit for tat way for such responses.
Another important point.
We are fortunate enough to get enlightened through one Shri Vitthal ji (who is a staunch rafi fan and who prefers rafi over kishore) about Shri Ghantasala ji, the greatest playback singer of telugu and who is undoubtedly more qualified technically and otherwise and who had the perfect voice modulation and command over music, clearly better than rafi. Ghantasala has a unique combination of melody and majesty, and a voice which had rendered topmost high pitches with complete ease, before which even mohd rafi (as rafi fans say much about his high pitch) fall flat. Coming to ghantasala’s classical filmy songs, all other singers including rafi easily falls flat. I have never seen rafi fans, including MYK ji, commenting on Siva Sankari song of ghantasala or Syamala dandakam of ghantasala (as enlightened by Mr Vitthal ji) as rafi fans were quite aware of such complex renditions and rafi or any other singer has no such song anywhere even equivalent to those renditions. In fact, recently we have also come to know that rafi ji immensely respected ghantasala (as greater) and when this topic was discussed with esteemed rafi fan I was referring to here, some turnaround stories were told, only for somehow protecting the slipping of rafi’s greatness factor, which was clearly exposed when some straight queries were raised, and surprisingly which were not replied at all , because the game was over. It is said that ghantasala was an accomplished music director as well and a advanced classical musician and a versatile playback singer, who virtually did not have any competition as long as he lived and who was incidentally a popular singer in tamil as well as kannada languages. The encycopaedia (google) states voice of ghantasala to be the most majestic voice. And Siva ji, personally, I agree with Vitthal ji on all factors above, as I had heard ghantasala pretty well and even many hindusthani and carnatic musicians too hold the same view as well (as is said including rafi ji as well). You will be surprised to note that a kishore fan is writing about ghantasala like this (this is simply based on the discussions we had for long in the divine voice of devotional kishore col. here – you can please refer)
And to me personally siva ji, Kishore kumar had a texture of voice which was nearer to the great ghantasala and I had stated many times that Kishore if technically well qualified would have been nearer to ghantasala, in which situation, it would have been a real tough time to manna as well. But of course, that did not materialise. Still, kishore with his natural clear voice texture, had mesmerised generations, and WAS THE ONLY SINGER WHO HAD SUCCESSFULLY OVERTAKEN RAFI. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT AND EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT.
Paramjeet ji, hence is right in his post and he has not made any comments equivalent to the ones made by some rafi fans in rafi forum against other legends, music directors, artists as well. What is this then ?
Chill out guys!!
My sincere request to the moderators: Close out this thread please.. It has reached its saturation. Better to close something in an amicable enviornment rather than a bitter one..
Good discussions and healthy debates are good, but the line of edge is very thin, you dont even realize when it becomes unhealthy and showing down upon great legends.. Dont get carried away..
Comparison is like pornography. All easily agree its bad. But when asked to rate the best among it, no world wars or universal wars help to choose the so-called best 😉
siva,
Dont play oversmart..
Aap log ridicule nahi karte kishoreji ko mohdrafi.com me?
Kya ridicule kiya hai maine??? Aap logo ne to duniya ka sabse bada joke mara hai ‘mere naina sawan bhado’ ke upar..
Aap ke wahan pe ek Unknow karke member ne kishore ke islaam hone pe ridicule kiya tha.. Woh sab theek hai?
Pancham ko drug addidct kehna theek hai?
Aap ne aap ko sudhaaro pehle phir aana yaha pe.. Articles kyun nahi aate yaha pe woh dekhna site admin ka kaam hai humara nahi
Bunch of hypocrites hai aap sab… Zyada hoshiari yahan pe nahi apne woh akhade mein jaake dikhaao.