An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Kishorefan-ji,
Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of Hindustani classical music, was of the view that Rafi was the greatest exponent of semi-classical music. I mentioned it with specific reference to him. If he himself created his own gharana, I think he is more qualified than many out there, as well as all of us here, to make such remarks, and in no way is his statement indirectly (or directly) hitting at other classical greats.
You seem to have a habit of bringing up past posts and discussions. May I ask why ?. I ofcourse have nothing against you, but we have been through this road before (in the past), and its funny you would choose to drive down the road again.
Balarykar,
I am not too sure about what exactly you wanted to prove with your latest post. But I assume that you think Rafi is just one of the many great singers the HFM have seen (from Saigal to Kishore) with no distinct edge (over any of the other greats). Am I right with my assumption? If that’s the case, I suggest you spend some time with your guruji and probe him about Rafi; may be he can help you out.
Your comments on Rafi-fanatics, we will take up later; but for now let me note down something about Yesu Das, a singer I’ve been listening to for over 30 years and who I absolutely adore. I suppose you wanted to prove (with the link that’s not opening for me) that there are songs that are technically (or let’s say classically) more complex than others to execute and that someone who can sing them well is the better singer. This theory is not entirely baseless but the danger in stretching it is that we will reach wrong conclusions more often that not. For instance, let’s have to say that Kishore (with very little ‘on your face’ classical scores in his disography) or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se. Yesu Das, with his substantial classical base can (and does) sing heavy classical stuff as well as songs that requires fine-tuned musical grasp (acquired off course through training) better than Rafi or any other film singer in India. But does that make him better? Speaking of that Ravindra Jain song (which I suppose you linked in your post), the MD went to Rafi first (but not Kishore), right? Does that tell you something? Again, for a Shammi Kapoor-ish song in Tamil, the MDs go for SPB (and not Yesu Das); does that also tell you something?
As for your ‘legends’, no one is disputing they are not so and no sane Rafi lover faces off Rafi with them. The comparison usually arises from the other side. I mean when a Rafi fan states Rafi was quite good at classical songs, someone from the other side comes in with Pandit Joshi or BMK. I don’t think I have ever seen any article (by Rafi fans) titled ‘Rafi- the greatest classical singer’ or ‘Rafi- a greater singer than Bhimsen Joshi’.
‘Yesu Das can’t be bracketed with the legends’, true but then the legends can’t be bracketed with Yesu Das either. One famous classical singer (I can’t recall who) has already answered it for me. He said something like ‘the classical musicians are great in their own way. But Yesu Das has been blessed with something they don’t have- a voice that attracts people’ and this applies to Rafi as well.
As for your post-69 HFM scenario, I really don’t want to answer you here, but will only ask you to look at what happened to the Malayalam film music industry around mid- ’80s, when the singer M G Sreekumar emerged and the superb singer Jayachandran got sidelined. However you can check with any musically literate Mallu and they will tell you where MG Sreekumar stands (as a singer) compared to Jayachandran.
As for your comments about Rafi’s forrays into South film music, let me inform you that Kishore sang one Malayalam song but couldn’t displace Yesudas/ Jayachandran and SPB sang many songs in Malayalam but never became a force to reckon with. I don’t think I need to say anything more on this.
dhani ram,
Mere baare mein kuchh bolne ya nautanki karne se pehle khud ka post padh lo kitni behuda baatein kari thi saigal ke upar. Aur ab pressure mein aake idhar udhar ki baat kar rahe ho..
Mere prashna abhi bhi wohi hai:
1. Saigal ka range poor kaise hai? Kya saigal ke lagaye hue saare noted Rafi ne hit kiye hai? Sochke boliye.
2. Woh great singer kaise nahi hai?
3. Kaise unki awaaz mein modulation ki kami thi?
4. Agar unhone 1-2 words galat bhi pronounce kiye hai to kya kisi aur ne nahi kari yeh mistake?
5. Aapne Saigal kitna suna hai? Kyunki mere prashna ka aap ne galat uttar diya hai. ‘diya jalaao’ mein udara saptak gandharv tak nahi hai , ‘pancham’ tak hi hai. Aur suniye Saigal ko, yeh prashna ka jawab hum baad mein zaroor denge aap ko. Yeh gaana youtube mein mat dhundiye, nahi milega 🙂
6. Kyun sirf 200 gaane gaake aaj bhi sab Saigal ko adarsh maante hai? main shastriya sangeetkaron ki baat kar raha hoon, rafi dot com walon ki nahi..
Ab theek hai Dhani Ram ji? Ek dum musical discussion? Aaiye ab akhade mein, hum bhi to dekhe Rafi bhakton ko itne gyan kahan se ho gaye jo bade bade sangeetkaton ko ‘great’, ‘not so great’ adi ityadi alankar se sajjit kar rahe hai.
Raj or Arghya bhai,
MYK ji ne to bol hi diya tha ki “rafi is greatest exponent of classical singing”
indirectly hitting at Bhimsen joshi ji and other pandits. Yeh bhi ho gaya hai.
Chalo sach kaha raj ji, galti to hamari hai jo ki hum speech dene lag gaye aadmiyon ko jo thik se samajh yah sun yah padh nahi sakte.
Bhakt ji – rafi ji ka
Accha, jara aap Balarykar (prabhanjan) ji ka post ka reply to de dijiye.
kishorefan
“My arguments were very clear:
In a discussion where a general assessment and comparison is being done, you cannot go by your personal likes and dislikes. One has to judge by a few widely accepted parameters. You must take into account all the songs sung by both singers and assess these songs on certain accepted criteria, such as
* melody of voice
* grip over music
* modulation of voice
* pronunciation of words
* communication of emotion
* ability to sing songs of different types, and
* acceptance by listeners of different generations etc. etc.
This is not a forum where one should impose one’s personal likes and dislikes by using harsh words. I feel sad that Shri Paramjeet’s remark has sunk to a level where discussion becomes impossible and exchange of bad words starts.
So, I am quitting the discussion, as it is no longer possible to carry it on.
Before quitting, however, I wish to appeal to all members of the forum to maintain decorum. I again wish to emphasise that having a liking for something is different from arriving at an accepted assessment through generally accepted criteria. All of us have our likes and dislikes for girls. But the judges in a beauty contest do not go by their own likes and dislikes. They go by a widely accepted criteria, such as the height, the waistline, the contours of the figure — even the ability to tackle an uncomfortable question. In the same way, when we assess a singer, we must go by a set of widely accepted criteria, some of which I have mentioned above. When I said that Saighal does not have Rafi’s range, I was not unaware of the shift from one scale to another in a song like “Diyaa jalaao”. When you compare the range of two singers, you do not go by one or two or three songs. Doing so will be like giving a writer the Nobel prize for writing a single short story.
Balyrkar Prabhanjanji,
Zabardast reply!! Aap ka diya hua yeh naya taaj yeh pagal zaroor apne sir pe pehenke ghumenge.. Waise ek baat ke liye maafi chahunga.. Kuchh mahine pehle mera vichaar aap ke baare mein kuchh aur hi tha magar ab yahan pe aap ki lekh dekh ke main yeh vinamrata se kehta hoon ki aesa sangeetpremi maine bahut kam dekhe hai.. Aap, arghyaji, satyansh bhai yeh sab bahut hi sache dil ke sangeet premi hai. Aur apne Kishorefan aur Raj bhai ko to kya bolun. Inke hote hue yahan pe atankvadiyon ka parkop seemit rahega.. Lage raho, sirji!
Waise bhailog, yeh Rafi bhakt apna mansik santulan kho baitha hai aur idhar udhar bhaunkta fir raha hai bhatakti atma ki tarah aur logon ko uttejit kar raha hai galat tariqe se…
Isko yahan se krupaya bhagao to hum shantipurvak sangeet charcha punah-prarambha karein…
Rafibhakt,
If Kishore would have slapped me for telling this , then he would have slaughtered you for talking nonsense about his guru-Kundan LAL SAIGAL.
FIRST, LEARN SOME DECENCY AND THEN YOU CAN HEART THE TRUTH!
100% Rafi songs are hit! 😀
Hahahahaha.. What a joke!!
Satish ranjan, sardarpura,
If rafi’s songs are 80% flop, then the ratio of The flop songs of 90% applies to kishore, Still rafi leads by 10%
Rafi’s are 100% hit songs – the greatest ever in hindi cinema. No hindi singer can ever come close to rafi. Kishore coming close -ha ha ha – a big joke and not even in dream.
Where is padmashri awardee rafi and where is kishore ? Do you know what you are talking? Kishore would have given you a straight slap, had he heard you talking like this.
I agree with Rafibhakt’s comment on post no. 1677 saying ‘ if Gata rahe mera dil or mere sapno ki rani would have rendered by Rafi, they would have been altogether different’..
yes, Rafibhakt they would have been different.
THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SUPERFLOPS JUST LIKE 80% RAFI SONGS AND NOT SUPERHITS!! That is the difference!! 😀
Rafi was a singer who needed good music, good lyrics and comfortable working to deliver hits. He sang 1500 songs in 60s and people hardly remember only 150 odd of them. 70s, the less we talk, the better. He sang around 600 odd Hindi film songs, and not even 60 qualified to be memorable. Singing 5000 songs, if people find it difficult to recall even 500 songs, what is the use? Look at Kishore, he sang selectively 3500 songs in his career, and the number of memorable and hit songs of him are much more than Rafi.
In terms of appeal and popularity, Kishore in national level and perhaps SPB in south, remain unsurpassed even today. They were two singers who could make mediocre compositions into superhit chartbusters.
Again intruders are making merry here.
Arghya, Paramjeet, Satyansh & my other friends – bhaiyon,
Galti to aap sabki hai, jo ki aap jaise true sangeet premi log bhashan de rahe hai ki un aadmiyon ko jo ki man se behre ho (deaf from mind and cannot hear the nice words which you say)
Galti to aap sab logo ki hai jo ki aap jaise true sangeet premi un aadmiyon ko aapke sundar posts padne ke liye keh rahe ho, jo ki man se andhe bhi hai (who cannot see through mind) aur jo ki aap sab logo ke sundar baat thik tarah se na hi pad sakte hai or na hi samajh sakte hai.
oh……… kisko bol diya, Saigal ji ko – father of hindi film music.
Yeh dhaniram bhai ne pehle ek bar father of southern film music ghantasala ko bhi kuch bol diya tha.
Paramjeet bhai and jaise kaha, kishore ko bhi kuch bol diya tha.
Jaise arghya ji bolte hai ab bache rahe, pandit bhimsen joshi ji jo ki bharat ratna awardee hai,
Vitthal ji, prabhanjan ji, – kyon gayab ho gaye aap log. Sundar gane sunvate rahiyega anek kalakaron ki.
Biased Rafi lovers,
VITTHAL JI, PARAMJEETJI, ARGHYA JI, MYSELF AND OTHERS HERE ALL ARE RAFI LOVERS AS WELL FOR YOUR INFORMATION BUT IT IS BETTER IF YOU LEARN HOW THESE RAFI LOVERS MAKE DISCUSSIONS IN THIS SITE, THUS, MAINTAINING THE DIGNITY OF THE SITE. THIS IS NOT TRUE VOICE COL. OF MOHD RAFI.COM – SO THAT WHATEVER YOU SAY WILL BE TOLERATED. MAY PLEASE BE NOTED.
Post 1683
The biggest mistake a man can commit in his life is to comment on something without knowing or understanding it..
Its really shameful that even Saigal is not spared. Now if Rafi-shamenatics believe so strongly believe Rafi is immortal, untouchable, matchless, and all blah-blah, they just need to peek at the year 1969 and later. And yes, even the so-called return in late 70’s is not really overwhelming as they would like the world to believe.
Further, if there was really that immortalily, untouchability, unmatchability, and all blah-ability, surely then explain why Rafi could not break the Ghantasaala monopoly after he sang those few songs in telugu? Similarly, Rafi had sung few songs in Kannada too, around the year 1967. Why P.B. Sreenivas thrived even after that?
Seriously, Rafi-shamenatics need to draw the line. It was ok if they post these crap in Rafi forum (the only reason being that then only Rafi-bhakts [not the one who posts here, lol] would be annoyed). Yes, try to get the song “shadaj ne paaya ye vardan”. Related link is this http://podcast.hindyugm.com/2008/11/shadaj-ne-paayo-rare-yesudas-song.html. And NO, Rafi comes nowhere close to singing this classical song, though its hindi. So stop over projections. 😀
Interestingly, as many point out here, comparisons with LEGENDS like Bhimsen Joshi, Balamuralikrishna, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, et al are also not left by the SHAMENATICS. Despite the greatness, Yesudas too has limitations and can’t be bracketed with these LEGENDS. Of course, one shamenatic did not agree with me but that does not matter 😀
P.S and disclaimer: The word “shamenatic” has been coined (invented) for the special purpose of effective words for this post only. As such the author of the post is not aware of such a word existing in the dictionary and now takes the responsibility of describing it.
“Shamenatic” is a noun and in general it means the reverse of a “fanatic” and stands for a so-called fan bringing more disgrace to his IDOL by choice of over-praising the idol or belittling other competitive icons and rivals.
Thanks and enjoy the new word “SHAMENATIC”
Dhaniram and Rafi bhakt,
Rafi is a revered singer in Hindi Cinema. Everybody knows it.
But, as satyansh ji, says, bhakti towards one should not turn as hostility towards others and no demeaning words should be used towards any singer. I request Dhaniram ji to take this advise positively as I feel, the post of Sri Dhaniram ji creates such feeling.
Why don’t you respond positively to paramjeet ji’s comments on gayaki and sangeet. I am sure lively discussions will follow if prejudiced comments are not made.
To my knowledge, saigal, with his very few songs, enjoys a great reverence in hindi film music. Such reverence with hardly close to 200 songs is indeed rare.
Rafi Bhakt
How can you conclude that if ghantasala would have been born as hindi singer , he could not have surpassed rafi ? On what basis could you arrive at this conclusion ? Could you kindly clarify? Excepting ghantasala’s classical and semiclassical talents, (which you acknowledge as incomparable – thanks for the compliment) what is your knowledge on ghantasala, telugu film industry and southern film music and contribution of ghantasala as a musician cum playback singer & other musical areas of ghantasala’s contribution ?
A sincere advise. Sitting and passing comments is very easy job. I request, please read the hundreds of posts in Divine Voice thread here – and see how discussions are made, You will know and further you are also welcome to initiate such type of positive discussions.
Dhani bhai,
Chalo theek hai Saigal ne ‘hai’ ko ‘haee’ bol diya.. Khush?
Ab janab, isi forum mein gayakon ki diction pe charcha hui thi arghyaji, satyanshji aur mere beech mein.. Padh lijiyega, kaam ayega.. Kitni baar Rafi ne (sirf Rafi hi kyun, kaafi logon ne), shabdon ko tod marod ke, vikrut roop se pesh kiya hai.. ‘bha’ ko ‘ba’, shabdon mein atirikt ‘u’ , ‘intezaar’ ko ‘in-tezaar’- aur sunaoon?? Magar humne sirf yeh baatein charcha kari hai aur har gayak ki ek ‘ada’ hoti hai ‘diction’ ki,, agar aapko Saigal mein khamiayn nazar aayegi to humein bhi Rafi mein..
Aur dusri baat, ab yeh mat kehna Myk ki tarah ki Rafi ke saath sab gayakon ki tulna ki jaati hai.. Rafi fans aese behuda harqat karenge sab gayakon ke baare mein to unke bhakt kya Rafians ko sir pe bithaake nachenge??
Saigal ke range pe baat kar rahe ho?? Chalo, Saigal ka ek gaana bataao jismein unhone ek line ko udara saptak gandharva mein lagaye ho aur phir usi ko tara saptak mein gandharva mein?? Jawab deke jaana Dhani Ram, warna samajh lo.. Apna mooh kala karke jaaoge yahan se.. Pehle Kishore ko kuchh bola aur ab Saigal ko?? Woh bhi bina sune(ya phir bina samjhe).. Mujhe is sawal ka jawaab chahiye Dhani Ram miyan, bina jawab diye yahan se gaye, to taiyaar rehna, Faridabad se aur bhi Saigal bhakt aake aapko aese aese aur takniki prashna karne lagenge(weh khud ya phir mere through), apne saare expert comments bhul jaaoge..
Waise Arghyabhai, kisi ek prani ki dum tedhi ki tedhi hi rehti hai.. Yeh Myk , Rafi bhakt aur Dhani Ram jaise log kuchh aese hi hai.. Sirf ubaasi lenge (yawn)-jaise Satyanshji ne bola- aur chavanni type ke comment karke nikal jayenge.
Arghya / Paramjeet
Why argue with nitwits ? Rafians have one agenda, promote Rafi at any expense, there is no need to espouse any logic. Music ? Who cares ? Quality ? What is that?
Only thing which matters to the Rafians is jehad.
Rafi surely is turning in his grave. The nice gentleman was very respectful of K L Saigal, and it is indeed blasphemy that Rafians are denouncing Saigal. These 20+ something with no idea of music at all will even go all out to prove that Saigal learnt music from Rafi.
Long live these idiotic jehadis. Music is already dead
among hindi film singers rafi is not only incomparable but far ahead of all others.More than an icon saigal is a fetish with some people.Having an extremely limited vocal range,saigal had a limited repertoire.his articulation is imperfect. he sings: kya jaadu haeee when it should be hai. song after song it is the same monotony.that is why hardly anybody listens to him except those who wish to look different.saigal couldn’t have sung any of rafi’s songs with any success whereas rafi could have even if not with hundred percent success . Imagine saigal even trying guzare hain aaj ishq mein hum us muqaam se or main nigaarhein tere chehare se hataon kaise and scores and scores of others cherished by millions. ajahoon na aae balma saigal couldn’t have sung in his dream even.
well,so far as saigal’s praise by rafi is concerned,it happens when one is struggling and the other is already in his prime.in the initial stages rafi might have even tried to imitate saigal but that proves nothing.mukesh’s example has been cited.but after dil jalta and some others mukesh had to get out of the mould as he knew that as saigal clone he had no future.
saigal,a foundational singer for hindi film industry– yes, a great singer- no. rafi’s equal,by no means.please excuse me.
Kiran aur Rafi bhakt (Agar aap dono alag alag insaan hai to)
aap logon ne gayaki se baat shuru ki aur ab lokpriyata mein pahoonch gaye.. To yeh bhi bata doon ki Saigal sahab ne kareeb 200 gaane gaye hai aur Rafi ne hazaron gaane, live shows aadi ityadi. To Rafi ki appeal aam aadmi mein zyada hi hogi.. Magar Rafi ko bhi ‘resurrect’ karna padta hai Sonu Nigam se beech beech mein, to lokpriyata ki baat chhod dijiye..
Saigal ki gayaki pe jo baatein Satyanshji aur Arghyaji ne rakhi hai(aur unke samakaleen gayakon pe bhi), pehle un pe vistaar se alochana kariye , phir mere paas bhi kuchh aur sawal hai, us par aayenge..
Ulta pulta baatein karke yahan se khisak mat jaana.. Agar gyan hai to gayaki pe baat karo warna apna moooh bandh rakho.. Yahan pe bahut jaankaar log baithe hai, yeh mohdrafi.com nahi ki jo mooh mein aaye bol diye aur nikal gaye.. Har ek point leke agar hum baith gaye na janaab, to paseene paseene ho jayoge aur aakhir mein ‘Rafi greatest’ , ‘Rafi greatest’ karke khaali naare hi lagaate rahoge, bina kisi valid points ke..
The whole thing is sheerly ridiculous to say the least.. It is again one of those cheap agendas of Rafi fanatics to show down the bygone legends.. To question first on Saigal and then the quality of his contemporary singers(which includes the likes of K C Dey and Pankaj Mullick) is a classic example of ignorance and biasedness. I think Rafi sahab himself being not so outspoken about his peers and predecessors plays an influence of his fan circles being this much of disrespectful to other legends and demeaning their contribution. Sheerly dissapointing.
Satyansh/Paramjeet,
I am yet to see a day when these blind Rafians can talk of anything apart from generic abstract remarks with no- I repeat, no- technical backup whatsoever.Both of you being trained in Hindustani classical would know this better. To say “Rafi’s voice was the most melodious” is again a very superfluous remark as it needs to be defined what is “melody” in their definition. They might like the soft, silky and less bassy voice more but that does not mean it is “more melodious”(but “sweeter” perhaps).. As that way, even Pandit Bhimsen Joshi is not melodious then- whose voice has a heavy, bassier and deep texture. To term something as per your own convenience and liking is utterly disgusting as that closes the technicality of any discussion whatsoever.
Popularity is never a measure of class, talent. Even in popularity, no matter what terms Rafians use (lakhs, crores, millions, trillions- err, only to be careful not to exceed the total population of Planet Earth 🙂 ), none knows it better than me that in International level(except Islamic coutries), Kishore Kumar remains the most popular male Indian singer ever.. Even one of my very close freinds recently concluded a full house show on Kishore recently in L.A.. But there also, you cannnot talk with facts and figures to rafians, as they would again start the same generic abstract remarks 🙂
Lastly, you are not doing any favour by calling Saigal “great”, my dear Rafibhakt.. Even if you and a handful of your hooligun maniac accomplices terms him as “crap” also(which you guys must be doing in your private sessions), still he would remain the “BEST PLAYBACK” and “FATHER OF INDIAN FILM MUSIC” and the “GREATEST”.. No Rafi or no Kishore can replace Saigal, a feat unattained even till date.
So, keep it up, Rafians.. You dont have anything to lose.. Certainly, such comments would make younger generation to repel against Saigal more, and your goals would be accomplished. Honestly, I did not expect this stunt against someone like Saigal, but anyways, “der aaye, durast aaye” 🙂
Next is what? Bhimsen Joshi? I think now someone would say, Rafi could sing a Darbari Kanada or a Malkauns better than Joshi sahab??? Dont worry, no technical explanations or backups required, only declaring yourself as a Rafian would suffice to make “generic statements”… Hum samajh lenge 🙂
Still didn’t work, copy/pasting again.
Vivek Vardhan [Post 1670],
I agree with you that Saigal was immensely popular and I spoke in this context in Post 387 in the Divine Voice thread. I think he is the only person in Hindi cinema who is as revered as Ghantasala. The legends most of us listen to have all been fans of KLS. It’s Saigal’s songs that I personally cherish the most.
Rafibhakt [Post 1674],
Saigal jaise guNi vyakti ko to har tulna se pare rakha jata hai par ab ek Rafi-paKSHapati ne uss ankahe niyam ka bhi ulanGHan kar diya.
“…Saigal – guru of bollywood – Kab se ban gaye …”
Since Rafi-fanatics are fond of quotes, here is what Mahendra Kapoor said about Saigal “…Saigal saab ko to hum sab ustaad mante hain hamare film music mein. Inse bhi mujhe bahut kuch seekhne ko mila…”. Add to that what Lata, Kishore, Rafi, Jagjit Singh, etc. have said about Saigal, I will let you re-evaluate your preceding statement.
“…Saigal ke jamane me itna competition aur talent nahi tha, jo ki praja log anek talent ke bare me jankari prapt karein…Rafi would have easily overtaken saigal, whose voice had nasal effect, if saigal was there at the time of rafi…”
It is disappointing that Rafi-fanatics do not leave any legend alone and have this time targeted Saigal and his peers. You said that during Saigal’s time there wasn’t much talent and competition. Think again and listen to those classics. To me the great Manna Dey’s guru was mighty talented, and there were more in that era. Your speculation of Rafi overtaking Saigal is baseless. Try to understand music before you say that Saigal’s voice has a nasal effect. His expression of poetry is unmatched as yet in Hindi music. Do you understand the meaning of ORIGINAL interpretation? I have often tried to highlight that. Try to listen to Saigal’s songs and understand the many different ways in which all others are influenced by him. Of course, people add their own variations (good and bad) as they learn and grow, however, all these should be evaluated in context and based on the times that these contributions were made. As an example, if we lose context, based upon the know-how of the great mathematicians and physicists of today, India’s invention of 0 and the other numerals 1 through 9 (sometimes known as Arab Numerals) would have little to no value. This might also be the case for the great contributions of Socrates, Plato, etc.
I am not saying that Saigal could or could not sing everything, but his style and interpretation were exemplary. Few people today understand and listen to Saigal. The bottomline is you have to understand what he did with sur, how he said certain words, his pronunciation, expressions, etc. before you start talking about how Rafi would have easily overtaken Saigal. Rafi was simply not good at that style of singing. Please enlighten me on how Rafi would have sung “Nayanheen Ko” – the song loses much of it’s charm if one doesn’t do justice to the lower notes. Most of Saigal’s songs fall in this category. There is a song “Paanchi Kahe Hot Udaas” that I was talking to a friend about just the other day. The beauty with which Saigal says “Dekh” and “Uth” are simply unmatched. Again there are parts of this song too that are not Rafi’s style. Saigal was the master of the type of songs he sang. As long as that style was in vogue, Rafi did not have a chance. Even after Saigal, his style remained in demand and Mukesh and Talat were very successful in the beginning. Listen to Mukesh’s “Dil Jalta Hai” and understand what he was trying to do. C.H. Atma was also greatly influenced by Saigal. There was a song “Kehne Ko Bahut Kuch Tha”. Could Rafi do justice to that? Kishore could sing in Saigal’s style as well as his own. “Jagmag Jagmag” is a good example of a song where there is an inkling of both Saigal and Kishore’s own style. IMO, Rafi could not do justice to “Saigal-type” of songs. Now, if you like Rafi-type songs more than Saigal, Manna, Mukesh, Talat or Kishore’s; that is your choice. I enjoy them all depending on the mood.
If people want to enjoy Saigal, at the least they have to do the following:
1) Understand the poetry first and try to make sense of his expressions.
2) Pay attention to his harkatein, especially in the lower notes.
3) Pay attention to his pauses – it is a very important aspect of a few songs of his.
4) Meditate on his voice and let him take you into a trance.
Lastly, it is sad that you call yourself a “bhakt”, but lose the basic essence of bhakti in your posts. At the least, bhakti towards one should not result in hostility towards another.
Paramjeet,
OK You say saigal can never be surpassed. True, but only applicable to era of saigal.
Rafibhakt is correct – rafi cannot be surpassed. If you combine the contribution of saigal and rafi, with due respects to saigal, I agree with rafi bhakt that rafi saab is the greatest singer. Just count the rafi lovers and saigal lovers – rafi lovers will be in millions spanning across many generations. Saigal ji is just not known to many.
Rafibhakt,
Even Rafi said that Saigal is unsurpassed. ek baar nahi, kayin baar.
So, this shud put an end to your funny claims also 🙂
Kitna sangeet sikha hai apne, Bhaktji? Bahut hi saprem prashna hai aap se.. Kyunki aap itne saare DECISIONS le rahe hai Saigal, Kishore, Rafi ke upar to thoda jaan ne ki ichha ho rahi hai.. Ya aap bhi un Rafi bhakton mein se ho jo aap ne aap ko mahaan sangeetpremi maante hai sirf is liye ki woh Rafian hai?
Aap jitne Rafi premi sangeetkaar ke naam batayenge main utne hi Kishore bhakton ke naam bata doonga.. Phir rahi sawal, rafi fan aur kishore fans ke aapas ki knowledge ki, aap meri, arghyaji, satyanshji aur surajit ji ke comments to padhe hi honge, unko khudke post ke saath compare karo, pata chal jayega kisne kitna gaana sikha hai.
Aur agli baar badi badi baatein karne se pehle sangeet pe baat karna.. Aap ko kya lagta hai ya nahi lagta hai usse haqeeqat nahi badalti 🙂
Arghya & paramjeet,
Please do not get excited. I have never said anything against Saigal, You have misinterpreted it according to your convenience, in fact I stated saigal is one of the great singers. Only point was he did not face any talented singers similar to mohd rafi ji, during his tenure. I have heard saigal, rafi’s melody is clearly superior to saigal. I maintain, Rafi cannot be surpassed. Regarding kishore, I do not think, kishore surpassed rafi, if that is the case, rafi need not have been singing hundreds of songs in 1970’s. I am sure, if a song like jo wada kiya woh, or o duniya ke rakhwale, man tarpat hari darshan ko, yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, – I cannot even think of kishore creating any magic similar to rafi. Whereas for sure, if mere sapnon ki rani or gaata rahe mera dil would have rendered by rafi, they would surely have been altogether different.
Rafi’s song is a tonic to patient, a pleasure to couple, a mesmerism to even growing children, a soothing effect for even current generations.
Regarding maska to vitthal ji, I know very well he is a staunch rafi fan, who had penned his posts in mohd rafi.com since long back, I think paramjeet is mistaken. Vitthal’s choosing of ghantasala is quite natural (as he is a telugu man) who was another specialised talent, and this has been proved in mohdrafi.com as well – some 700 to 800 posts are discussions on comparison between rafi and ghantasala there under true voice col.
Further, paramjeet, I think, if ghantasala was there in hindi, with a due exception for his unique classical/semi classical presentations, where he can easily surpass rafi, – with due respect with regard to other areas, sure he would have done very great, but , in my view, might not surpass rafi. In south, he is unchallenged numero one, and I know even rafi could not make any impact in telugu before ghantasala, and taking into account the undisputed Rafi’s contribution as a whole, rafi could not have been surpassed in hindi, even if ghantasala was in hindi, though sure, he would have done really exceptional but not surpassing rafi (however, classical/semiclassical talents as already stated are exempted , as in these areas, ghantasala stands class apart)
Coming to kishore surpassing rafi, no singer, including your kishore kumar will agree for it, I think only kishore fans would say such statements, whereas kishore himself claims that rafi can never be surpassed. This should put a end to your claims paramjeet.
Bhattacharyaji,
Yeh baat to pakki hai ki is lekh ke lekhak ne ‘single note’ se kuchh aur hi bolne ki prayas kari hai.. Ab woh ekdum kya bolna chahte hai yeh to unhi se poochhna padega.. Maine jitna samjha mujhe ek hi baat lagi Dard E Dil mein ki woh ek ghazalish gaana hai pashchatya orchestra pe…
Rafibhakt,
Are mahagyani gandharva, pehle Saigal ko sun le achhi tarah se.. Agar Saigal ‘nasal’ hai to main bhi bol sakta hoon Rafi ki awaaz mein ‘bass nahi hai’ aur isi liye Kishore ki buland awaaz ki jab daur chali to woh fir kabhi nahi uth paye. Tujhe takniki baat karni hai gayaki pe to aa ek ek karke baat karenge yahan pe.. Apni adhi adhuri gyan leke tippani mat maar yahan pe.. Aur woh Ghantasala wali last line kya thi? Vitthalji ko maska maar raha hai kya yahan pe? 🙂
Rafibhakt 1674..
Have you gone out of your mind? It seems you are the same Baijunath singh who keeps on saying rubbish on all singers except Rafi. Hillarious points. You said:
1. //Saigal is one of great singers and at that time since there was no competition or there were no established singers, he could establish himself for a limited period./
At least think twice before what you are saying. Do you think Pankaj Kumar Mallick, K C Dey, R C Boral etc. were not established or did not have comment? Dont talk like a moron here.. Do you know who was K C Dey or for that matter how many songs of K C Dey have you heard.. For your kind info, he was the Guru of both S D Burman and Manna De. How many songs of Pankaj Mullick have you heard? Kundan Lal Saigal was praised personally by Gurudev Tagore himself…
Dont gabble like a moron here..
2. //Rafi would have easily overtaken saigal, whose voice had nasal effect, if saigal was there at the time of rafi.//
Most childish and biased comment. If you have not learnt music, then please go and learn. And if you want to learn film history properly, go to musical authorities to get a breathe of life. It was Rafi, Mukesh, Kishore and all who got their crucial breaks in their career because of Saigal’s untimely death. Give Saigal’s “Main kya janoo kya jadoo hai” to Rafi, the first thing Rafi would have done was to adjust the scale.. Give Saigal’s “Diya jalaao jagmag jagmag” to Kishore, the first thing he would have said is I wont sing this. That was Saigal, you moron…
And next time I see such childish and non-technical gabble of you Rafi fanatics-acting like an erudite music authority- be prepared for some bashing, as I promise, if you come to Saigal fans with technicality, your gabbling will only increase.
May god give you some wisdom.
1670 – vivek vardhan
Saigal – guru of bollywood – Kab se ban gaye bhai. Saigal ke jamane me itna competition aur talent nahi tha, jo ki praja log anek talent ke bare me jankari prapt karein. Saigal is one of great singers and at that time since there was no competition or there were no established singers, he could establish himself for a limited period. Since he was the first established singer, subsequent legends, naturally have respect for him.
Rafi would have easily overtaken saigal, whose voice had nasal effect, if saigal was there at the time of rafi. Mohd. Rafi ji ka voice sabse melodious aur sundar hai hindi mein. Rahi kishore ji ki baat, agar sahi tara se sangeet ke bare me charcha kara jaye, to rafi ji technically kishore ji se badkar the, toh as a musician, kishore rafi ji se piche hai, or sangeet ke vishaya mein agar basha ka bhedbhav ka importance nahi diya ho to ghantasala ji sabse aage hai as a singer/musician.
@Vithal Sir: I will be attending SPB Fans Annual Meeting with SPB on 21 Feb (in Chennai, at 10:30, Venue: SP Kodandpaani Studios) and will get an answer from him at that time. Will update here for sure.
@Vivek Vardhan: The reasons for those many number is entirely different and will require lengthy description. For sure, if you count quality songs per 1000 songs, this ratio won’t be too different for KK, Rafi or SPB. Besides, quality does not just depend on a singer. It depends on era, lyricists, music directors, co-singers, and a billion other factors. To further my argument, the quality per thousand songs in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s was declining for Kishore Kumar and Rafi too. So comparison don’t really hold water.
@RafiBhakt: Are you sure by the contents of your post??? At least I am not 🙂
Rafibhakt 1668.
Noone will feel jealous of SPB here for not mentioning Kishore Kumar, I promise you.. I also accept your logic that since Rafi was a greater singer than Kishore, that is why SPB praises him more..
And, now, brother, from next time onwards, be cautious of abusing legends like Lataji, Ashaji, R D Burman, Anandji bhai etc. who openly declare Kishore Kumar as the best playback singer.. Now, dont say that these are political games and SPB’s comments are artistic truth…
Better have a recheck..
Good Day.
There are many people who have good classical knowledge here too. Surajit bose, Paramjeet , Srivas and others to quote. Can any body please clarify the following para in the above article ? What does it exactly signify ? Surajit Bose or paramjeet can clarify in a better way, I think, as it is a hindi song from film karz by mohd. rafi.
“They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody”
If the song is on a single note as stated, It would also be very interesting if any kishore lover could state any song of kishore which is similarly sung by kishore.
What about saigal ? with only 185 songs, he is the guru of bollywood ? Lata, rafi, manna, talat, mahendra, hemant, mukesh all refer to him as the icon and base of hindi playback singing. The popularity of saigal in hindi cinema with only few songs – could anybody match. Is there any singer who with only few songs has become such popular.
Saigal’s experiment with music is very interesting to understand. He had become alcoholic and died very young. Otherwise, I do not think any other hindi singer could have achieved prominence if he continued.
Southern film singing is a different subject, which cannot be compared to bollywood, of course, sangeet ki duniya ek hi hai, we can enjoy music. Hats off to ghantasala fans for sharing his songs, what a voice he has and his presentation and skills are beyond anyone’s reach. It is surprising that this legend is unnecessarily being compared to mohd rafi in many sites, when rafi’s capability is totally limited in front of him. I hope ghantasala fans will avoid such unnecessary comparison and try to share his songs as ghantasala, the genius songs.
Prasad Sarma – post 1662
Kishore kumar’s popularity is beyond anyone’s reach. It is a voice which simply carries away anyone who hears it. SPB might be a nice singer in southern languages, but when it comes to comparison with kishore, only comparison will be kishore vs. kishore. Despite SPB singing 30,000 songs, yes, kishore is more popular with only 3000 songs. It is the quality that matters than quantity. Kishore’s quality is unique.
It doesn’t matter whether anyone praises kishore or not, but his songs will continue to inspire generations.
I do not know why people are so unhappy and feeling jealous about SPB worshipping Mohd. Rafi than Kishore Kumar. The reason is obviously simple – rafi was the greatest among all singers in hindi cinema, SPB knows this and that is why he adores him. Similarly Shri Ghantasala is equally adored by SPB, I have seen, why – because Shri Ghantasala is greatest in south and a unique singer like rafi. Shri Ghantasala voice was also very melodious and unique like rafi and his specialisation was also in a different league. That is why SPB praises both. There is nothing to feel jealous about SPB if he does not praise kishore kumar, because – reason being simple, both rafi and Shri Ghantasala are the greatest singers, and none can surpass them.
Can the songs of rafi, chaudvin ka chaand, yeh chaand sa roshan chehra etc, be similarly sung by any hindi singer. Rafi saab’s modulations and melody is beyond anybody’s reach. Rafi saab remains the greatest ever playback singer of bollywood.
Prabhanjan ji,
I hope you will share the reply received from SPB for your mail (to SPB) in your post 1660.
Prasad Sarma,
Yes, you are correct, SPB did imitate kishore kumar in his earlier days. And he generally does not mention about kishore kumar, similar to the way he praises ghantasala and rafi. SPB started singing in his own style after advise from ghantasala that if you do not develop originality, you will not get recognition. But, it was ghantasala who predicted in 1972 that SPB would rule the telugu industry after him and yes the prediction indeed came true.
Rajagopal V,
I am really sorry to learn that your dream of becoming a playback singer has not been realised due to reasons quoted by you.
I too am aware of some tactics of SPB, which I do not want to discuss here, but I feel that SPB has positioned himself well and dominated the telugu industry for nearly 2 decades, mostly the break dance numbers of chiranjeevi, and some of popular illayaraja numbers have clicked well and admired by people. I agree with you that the 50’s & 60’s period of telugu industry is the “EPIC” of playback singing, which has no comparison for any age. But the 80’s (mainly) SPB was dominant in the industry. People could adjust with him and admire him.
By the way, the evergreen classic Mayabazar of 1957, in telugu
released just two days back, I have seen yesterday. The picture now revamped in colour, cinemascope, digital sound, modern technology with modern instruments used for music by ghantasala (music is same but now had been played with modern instruments in many places) , – ghantasala’s voice rocks in the latest release – When he hear it in today’s digital technology, I was convinced that this man can create monopoly even today, if he was born today, his talent is quite ahead of his times. I noticed that no singer of even today (with current technological techniques) comes even close to the legend, whose voice when put in digitalised format continues to mesmerise even greater than olden days. It was a memorable moment yesterday for me.
Yeh Binu Nair kidhar ko chala gaya.. bahaut mazaa aata tha unka tang khichne ko.
Hi Folks! the greatest fan of Kishore Da, the king of bollywood music, is back.
Yeh SPB bole to Ballu miya.. the super fat guy.. I find his hindi pronunciation to be funny.. His high pitched voice gets really irritating.
S P Balu kaise insaan hai ya the, is se zyada zaroori hai yahan pe alochna karna ke woh kaise gayak hai aur unki gayaki mein kya kya baat hai. Mere khayal se is forum ka maqsad mahan gayakon ki gayaki pe alochna karna hai na ki unke charitra par.
Umeed hai is baat ko thoda dhyan diya jaye yahan par. Is forum ko sundar aur swasth banaye rakhe yehi meri vinamra vinati hai sabhi se.
@Rajagopal V, Prasad Sarma, and M. Krishna:
I am not going to respond any more for the only reason that this is not the right forum to discuss more about SPB, especially as its becoming more political and dirty too. Its already eaten more space.
Thanks and regards 🙂
SPB in early 70s and late 60s imitated Kishore Da in many songs and became familiar only with the imitated voice of Kishore Da. But I do not know why SPB is so disgraceful and so unkind towards Kishore Da, who (perhaps SPB may not like to agree), has inspired him so much, he never bother to make a mention about this legendary singer anytime anywhere on any platform. Even after singing over 30,000 songs in various languages in India, Kishore is much more popular than SPB. SPB is no doubt a great singer of our times with much mimicking talents to his credit, nobody will have any objection to his worshiping Mohd. RAfi, but he should also acknowledge the contribution of Kishore Da, one who can never be forgotten by Indian film industry. SPB and his ardent fans should be frantic in his views.
Mr myk
You claim to know all about Binaca even before you were born!! I thought you were a Canadian national born in 1983.
When will you stop acting the hypocrite ?
Could not understand the part ‘ Darde dil being based on a ‘SINGLE’ note. What is this supposed to mean?
Hi friends!
First a few songs of SPB.
SPB in a jolly mimicry mood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRc176Tkhw
SPB in a pathos mood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YEub9Uj9zM
This masculine song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrejeAeqLjg
A song full of hatred: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI1Poz5pEUU
Please, please, please, don’t miss this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tqsEksVfdE
Now, back to the topic 😀
Anilji: We have mostly agreed with each others opinion. If there were not some differences, one of us must stop posting 😀
Further, about singer-song compatibility. My only tirade against this is the time-order biasedness (not saying that you are doing this). However, more often than not, we all think a singer from the past could have done better than the current singer. Just look at the sheer injustice: if a current singer is tipped to have bettered a song, its considered blasphemy. Except for this, I don’t have problem is this type of discussion.
Finally, my reply to M. Krishna. Yes, you say “[ how great he or his fans feel may be ]” Its not matter of what we feel, its about facts. Yes, we all know awards are manipulated, but six national awards in four different languages, one for classical carnatic (sankarabharanamu), one for pathos (tere mere bich mein), one for drunkard (thakati thadimi), one with social message (chapalanai undi), one in hindustani classical (umandu ghumandu), and one seducing song (thanga thamarai magale) is not a JOKE either :D. In this regard, no singer even comes any closer to him. Like it not, or hate it, but you can’t ignore it.
When you say “It is surprising that SPB is discussed in this forum.”, ask any senior members, not on any single occassion, we (his fans) have never brought SPB here for dirty comparison, just for clarification. There is no surprise here. Don’t think you will ever get the catch here 😀
Further, “he consciously avoids a good word on Ghantasala, and tries to dwell more on Rafi.”
This has been explained to death, and no point in repeating it again.
“His liking towards Rafi is no fault.”
Thanks for the generosity 🙂
“He has his own reasons not to speak much on Ghantasala.”
Spell them out, or u want to do a la “Sandeep Nadkarni”???
“Probably many a people never considered him great along with Ghantasala in his early days.”
List out how many of those people have won even a single national award, or how many of them even achieved 1% of what he did. Similarly, you will find those many people who don’t consider Rafi, Kishore, Lata or Asha great. Does that count to anything?
“If it is so or a point ?am not interested.”
Yes, you are a classic example of “hit-and-run” bravery 😀
“SPB cites himself one of the Maha gayakulu and even suggested an upcoming songster to keep a photo of great singers of yesteryears including his own(SPB) while practicing.”
This indeed looks serious. So, what I decided is to write about this to SPB himself. I have received many replies from him, and I have already sent a mail to him the matter below between “======” and ending with “======”. If there was no humility as appears in that scenario, he would have never bothered to reply to his fans. For your benefit, and many others, I am providing here SPBs email id: spbindia@yahoo.com Except for trivial mails, he does personally respond to as many mails as possible. Not just that, I am also giving here his residence phone number: 044-28172757. Any person can call their home and if he is available, he will answer you. Not only that, anybody can walk in his home and will be welcome. How many fans can boost that their idols are that OPEN? Now, if you want to take apart him for that thing, its our turn not to CARE about you.
Of the three questions, I guarantee reply for the first two. If I don’t get reply (he can’t reply to each of his mail through blackberry at the age of 65), I will surely get the reply when I meet him on the first occasion this year. Third one, he need not reply at all.
“No other great singer ever said so. It is fine as long as we discuss on greats Rafi, Ghantasala, kishore etc. ”
Are you sure? There has been a great senior singer in south who never complemented KJY or SPB. Guess his name? Similarly, you will find many acclaimed musicians who never appreciate an artist not named them self? Btw, will you call Dr.M. Balamuralikrishna egoistic because he named one new raaga after himself 😀
Surely, you have a lot of grounds to cover 😀
“Let us limit this in this forum.”
Oh! Its not that simple, its not that simple 😀 😀
===================================================================
Dear Guruji:
Hope that this mail finds you in the best of health 🙂
I write this mail with three requests. Recently I have been interacting a lot with Ghantasaala, Rafi, and Kishore Kumar fans. Its been a lot of pleasure to know how they praise their idols and how much they also appreciate you and Yesudas.
My first request is to tell us how do you look up to Ghantasaalaji? Yes, you have said a lot about him. But one more time please 🙂
You and Kishore Kumar have sung a beautiful song in Saagar “Yun hi gaate raho”. That song is highly energetic and a highly competitive and sportive song. Did you record that song along with Kishore Kumar? If yes, how was that experience? Can you also say a few things about Kishore Kumar for my dear Kishore Kumar fan friends? Please.
Thirdly, it seems that during one of your TV programs, you suggested an upcoming songster to keep a photo of great singers of yesteryears including your own. Of course, there is no shadow of doubt about your humility (I can’t be writing this to you if I had any doubts about this), but this statement of yours has been not taken in the right manner by many. If you had said about yourself in a sarcastic manner, no explanation is required. Can you tell a bit more about this situation?
Thanks for the patience to read this mail. Expecting your reply.
==================================================================
Post 1648 – Sri vas ji
Excellent post on music. Thanks.
Arghya and paramjeet bhai,
Please comment on my posts 1649 & 1650.
Mr. Krishna,
moreover in hindi too SPB had tried in late 70’s ek duje ke liye etc. But with kishore kumar around, he could not taste much success, as kishore kumar could not be easily surpassed in Hindi, who incidentally was another legend in hindi, and further who too equally enjoys admiration of many ghantasala fans, I have seen.
Thus, if the situation would have reversed i.e SPB, if born in hindi and tried there and achieved position there, surely he would have praised ghantasala more than rafi. Because rafi was top in hindi, and by no chance he could get a click there, again the “games” used to be continued there and what not ?
These are all absolute facts Mr. Krishna ji, and no one can dispute them.
I just do not want to post anything here and I may not also respond to further posts. As something was going beyond facts, I just wanted to pen one post here.
Mr. Krishna
another point, which i was reading through one of the posts of Mr. Prabhanjan, when he says SPB was top singer after ghantasala passed away. This I “Strongly Disagree”, as Mr. Ramakrishna Das, a relative of P suseela was preferred in many movies. NTR film Daana veera soora Karna, in 1976 all the padyams were sung by Mr. Ramakrishna Das. With great difficulty SPB got one padyam in the film and after that padyam got recorded, SPB was advised – do not ever think of singing padyams again. Ramakrishna was given rest of padyams. Virata parva, another movie in late 70’s some 50 padyams were rendered by ramakrishna das, SPB was very much available, why he was not preferred ?
In 1979, Sanakarabharanam, was due to sheer luck SPB songs got a break, though after great struggle and continuous advise from classical musicians, SPB tried to sing classical numbers. Moreover, since movies laying classical thrust were not there for long time after passing away of ghantasala, sankarabharanam picture could get boost by people, as people were looking for some change. What happened after sankarabharanam – As Mr. prabhanjan says, many crap songs SPB had rendered – since correctly he only was fit for those numbers.
I should certainly admire SPB for his “games” by which he could position himself. Once A R Rehman brought change, in mid 90’s everything was over, many other singers have got chances.
Mr. Krishna,
I did not want to post a comment here strictly, because I am myself a carnatic musician, and talking on SPB does not simply make “any sense” when discussions are on particularly on classical singing and particularly when discussions are on between stalwarts such as ghantasala or rafi etc.
I know SPB pretty well, as a person who can make only “politics”
& nothing else. I was also one of the victims. In 60’s I had associated with the great telugu music director, S Rajeswara Rao, who tried to give me chances in telugu film playback singing, (though i knew that with ghantasala around there, none can even try for singing but I was trying for some songs) but SPB who used to mainly sing tracks those days mainly through chamchagiri, ensured that I do not get chance. SPB was not adept in classical singing and had no talents in any way to bring traditional music style beauty. He started learning from music directors and mostly from ghantasala himself, how to sing songs. He used to frequently fell on the feet of N T R and SP Kodandapani and used to get some “minimum chances” – even he tried for grabbing some songs from ghantasala (for which many producers asked him to simply get out) and S P Kodandapani made SPB to sing many tracks only, which were ultimately sung by ghantasala. SPB tried many songs (under the guidance of music directors) and had sung in track in late 60’s in telugu and through chamchagiri influence tried to put them in films, all were simply rejected by the producers and music directors and ultimately ghantasala had to sing them again.
SPB very well knew that he cannot play his games, as long as ghantasala was alive, and many people even used to say that SPB waited for ghantasala to pass away, so that his “games” can continue. I knew these facts pretty well. SPB very well knew that he was no match for the “colossus ghantasala” in any way, rather he was no match even for P B Srinivas also in telugu.
But for his politics, SPB would have been washed away long back.
Ghantasala had given chances to many other singers, including in his own music direction, this itself simply implies what he was. Since ghantasala had a “Divine unique talent, majestic and mellifluous voice, classical expertise, none could ever compete with him and he was unchallenged numero one”. On the other hand SPB never gave chances to anybody, since he knew very well of his own limitations, and if had he given chance to anybody, he had doubt about his own existence.
The above facts are the main reasons, SPB praises rafi more than ghantasala (though SPB knows very well that rafi is also no match for ghantasala) SPB had praised many times ghantasala as “na Bhooto Na Bhavishyati” – i.e past and present such singer cannot be there – Most of these comments come when stalwarts associated with ghantasala are present there. SPB has no option but to again play “politics” – understood. At least, in such “politics” though not intentionally, SPB has spoken truth about ghantasala.
Ghantasala, had he not become legendary playback singer, would have been a great competitor for M Balamuralikrishna, the great classical legend of the south and considered as the greatest among the carnatic musicians in the south. That is enough to say about ghantasala, the outstanding genius of playback singing.
Today, SPB advises many people to sing songs in that manner or this manner, surprisingly, in my view, SPB still is not perfect even today in songs, First he should know what he is and then start advising.
Please music lovers, do not try to bring a rakshasa into discussion, when you are discussing about divine beings.
While my due respects are outstanding for ghantasala, the ever incomparable genius of playback singing, I also feel jealous about this man some times, because personally I feel, that he had such a unchallenged rule for almost 30 years, (of course he alone deserves that by his multifaceted talent) and due to which singers like me could not get chances in playback singing ?
Mr. Anil Ji,
Who is the favourite singer comment in your previous post ? This is a absurd statement.
My favourite is Maruthi Alto Car. Can I Argue, it is greater than mercedes benz in any way. What do you say ?
It is surprising that SPB is discussed in this forum. It is not bad that he considers Rafi a great singer.
The problem with SPB is: [ how great he or his fans feel may be ] in any interview or a program, he consciously avoids a good word on Ghantasala, and tries to dwell more on Rafi. His liking towards Rafi is no fault. He has his own reasons not to speak much on Ghantasala. Probably many a people never considered him great along with Ghantasala in his early days. If it is so or a point ‘am not interested. SPB cites himself one of the Maha gayakulu and even suggested an upcoming songster to keep a photo of great singers of yesteryears including his own(SPB) while practicing. No other great singer ever said so. It is fine as long as we discuss on greats Rafi, Ghantasala, kishore etc. Let us limit this in this forum.
Vitthal ji, & Anil ji to be specific,
It will be correct to respect legends “as they are” and keeping in view their unique contributions in their own fields. I have seen many telugus saying “Mohd rafi as the ghantasala of bollywood” and similarly, many hindi people saying “ghantasala as the Mohd rafi of the south” and both of them quote their own reasons stating that since ghantasala was elder than rafi and was unique in the field of playback singing and moreso since rafi had himself stated that he could not sing like ghantasala on ocassions, many telugus support their view that rafi is ghantasala of bollywood. On the other hand, hindi people say that since national language has got more importance than the regional language, ghantasala, however great he might be, can be hence called as mohd. rafi of the south.
This was the trend in the 60’s sure, since only aged people who have closely seen their eras can alone confirm this fact and the younger generations, who continue to get mesmerised by ghantasala and rafi even today similar to 60’s, cannot know the greatness of both the legends. Both were unique in their own way in terms of their contribution. While it is true that ghantasala was more technically qualified and virtually was a emperor for nearly 3 decades without competition and had ventured into “more special genres such as padyams, hari kathas, devotional sanskrit renderings” etc. as compared to rafi, yet no body can undermine the truth that in terms of influence these two legends have cast on the masses, is certainly of much significance, and it is not a exaggeration to say that such influence, perhaps, has not been made by any other playback singer in their respective fields. Both were simply great and continue to win admiration of the younger generations as well. That is their greatness.
Anil,
It will not make any difference, if one tries to devalue any of the said legends in any way, as it simply goes waste, as somebody says here, as both were badshah’s of music in their own areas.
Ref: my previous post
Please read my sentence- “On the other hand I’ve seen this very statement from both, sometimes as response to direct querries (to who is your most favorite singer)” as “On the other hand I’ve seen this very statement from both about Rafi sahab, sometimes as response to direct querries (to who is your most favorite singer)”
To Vithal
This is possibly my last post here on the subject too.
I am not under any mis-conception at all and Prabhanjan (who writes brilliantly BTW and I have personally complimented him sometime back for his skills with words) doesn’t say anything contrary to what I posted. Perhaps he differs on my point about ‘SPB speaking about Ghantasala on demand’; but then it is more on account of my not expressing things clearer and his views on the ‘Shankara..’ song matches with mine.
Let me make it clear that I didn’t try to sell Ghantasalaji short, rather I mentioned that he was a great musician and I didn’t compare him with Rafisahab. The link that you’ve provided doesn’t contain anything I already didn’t know about except IR’s statement. The KJY article also I’ve read before. The point I wanted to stress is only this- Both KJY and SPB consider Rafisahab as their BIGGEST IDOL. They also think that RAFI IS UNMATCHED AS A TOTAL PACKAGE. I have many articles (hard copies) and some internet links to substantiate this. If you are interested I can post it in a site of your choice (not here, it is not relevant here and there are other reasons). These two singers have very high regards for Ghantasalaji too, I admit I erred in not highlighting this aspect in my posts. But then they have very high regards for other South Indian greats as well- TMS for instance. It is also true that the two have learned a thing or two from the master (especially SPB). However I am yet to see an interview of either of the two wherein they say “Ghantasalaji is my MOST FAVORITE SINGER”. Please provide me any such articles/links and I would be happy to change my views. On the other hand I’ve seen this very statement from both, sometimes as response to direct querries (to who is your most favorite singer). Let me re-iterate I’m not trying to under-sell Ghantasalaji in any manner, I respect him as much as SPB and KJY respect him and I am not trying to prove Rafisahab’s superiority. My only point (to repeat) is this- KJY and SPB ABSOLUTELY ADORE RAFI and this make them part of the group people generally call Rafi fans. Whether it is a big deal or not is another issue which I am not trying to address.
Wishing you a happy 2010.
To Prabhanjan
Agree mith most of the points.. beg to differ slightly on the song-singer compatibility thing. ‘Ek ladki….’ would have sounded better in SPB’s (among all the active singers of HFM in that period) vocals. Imagine the SPB specials (which some brand as gimmick) in that song which gave ample room for the stuff. Also try imagining ‘mein shayar to nahin…’ in Rafisahab’s voice. Shailendra Singh did a commendable job and his fresh voice was a highlight but what all vocal histrionics Rafisahab would have brought into that one. I really wish they made two versions of the song- one by Shailendra Singh on a young Rishi and another by Rafisahab on someone else.
The tendency to downplay the prized possession was especially spot on. It happens with ‘Duniya ke rakhwale..’ too.
Happy 2010.
To all Ghantasala fans
I would be happy to discuss with you all on Ghantasalaji. Could you suggest some forums where we can do it? This may not be the platform since we have to talk more about South Indian classical singers, Manna Dey and Rafi more than Kishore Kumar.
Happy 2010.
To all
Wishing a happy 2010.