An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Rafi fan, -1741
You had stated
Yes, I like Rafi’s voice better but I won’t claim that Rafi’s “Kuhu Kuhu” is better than Ghantasala’s. It isn’t.
What do you mean by this ? A clear iota of subjectivity and personal favouritism (towards rafi while acknowledging ghantasala’s superiority again) is reflected (fine you can have your share of it – no body objects) You further state the southern industry demanded technical skills and ghantasala tuned well for that- and whereas rafi was not so ? what does that signify ? Can rafi match ghantasala in southern industry – your own statement is a clear no for that. By virtue of industry standards and the shades and skills of playback singing, the respective greatness is judged. So you have to accept that as rafi was to hindi industry so was ghantasala for the southern industry and sure as Mr. Krishna says here they were pillars of indian film singing. You have to note that as vitthal ji had conveyed that ghantasala ruled like a colossus for 3 decades in his industry without any competition, even rafi did not had that stature – I hope you have to keep this in mind while discussing and comparing great legends. It is not easy to enjoy such type of kingly status, unless the artist possesses some distinctive and creative skills, which you have to always remember. And one cannot also rule for such a long time with such status, unless he is distincly versatile from all the areas and genres which the respective industry demands. So your view on rafi’s fun songs is only partially correct, rather i understand they come out due to liking for rafi, which you may please have and I know you accept this. Moreover, I am in agreement with you, that all are human beings, so naturally voice factor and skills factor undergo change depending upon age, so you have to generalise things while arriving at conclusions.
Friends,
Bahut hi rochakta aur utsaah se main saare posts pad raha hoon.
Rafi fan ji,
Aapke drushtikon kaafi achhe hai. Logical bhi hai. Ek hi vinamra vinati hai, jo points Anil ko kiye gaye hai unka jawab unhi ko dene dijiye. Baaki aap achhe insaan hai. Mera salaam.
Anil ji,
UAR?? Haha.. Mujhe to laga Rafians ne ek group banaya hai UAAS- United Against All other Singers. Aur woh group UAR se 1 saal pehle hi ban gaya tha. Usi group se Rafi bhakat naam ka ek prani kuchh din pehle isi forum mein aake Saigal ke upar chugli kar raha tha. Aap hai us group ka member? 😀
Myk,
Pehle apna dil saaf karo. Lahore waali baat ka matlab samjhaaoge? Badi badi baatein karte ho Kishore ki gayaki ke upar.. Aur woh gana ‘Likhkar tera naam zameen par’ mein aesi kya khaas baat hai bhai? Tumhari girlfriend ka naam ‘Laila’ to nahi? Us gaane mein bahut baar ‘laila laila’ bolte hai, shayad tumhe nahut pasand hai isliye.. Just joking. :).. Dil pe mat lo.. Lekin us gaane mein aesa kuchh bhi superhuman nahi laga mujhe.. Haan, woh aakhir ka alaap bhi nahi..Magar tumhare comments buri tarah se biased hai aur jo izzat maine tumhare upar banaya tha as a music lover, woh ab nahi rahe. Allah kare tum thoda sangeet ko achhe nazariya se lena sikho..
Satyanshji,
Chhodo jaane do bhai.. Aese comments likhne ke baad bhi Rafi walen poochhenge humein atankvaadi kyun bolte hai? 😀
rafi fan,
Sure, drivel it is. You must have obviously read it to know that :). The only difference is that I copy/pasted it too, in order to put the discussion IN CONTEXT for people who might not be fully aware. This would hopefully counter any attempt being made to show Kishore fans as the aggressors.
It did take about 10-15 mins to do that, but as you hopefully understand it did not really need careful reading :). Another reason was that Rafi-fanatics are now shying away from the remarks they made earlier and pretending as if they have never derided other legends. The least they can do is acknowledge what they have said earlier so their biased demeanor is better exposed. You will never see Prabhanjan, Surajit, Paramjeet, etc. or myself demean any other singer. Personally, I am a big fan of Rafi as well. The only difference is that we consider him to be one of the greats alongside the other legends – Kishore, Manna, Hemant, Mukesh, MK, Talat, etc. Different songs/singers/MDs for different moods.
Anyway, I do appreciate a Rafi fan acknowledging MYKs remarks as drivel. If you choose to ignore it instead of addressing the issue, it’s your choice. Like I said earlier, you might be one of the neutral ones and in that case we can obviously focus on music instead.
All,
Back to discussing music, I would love to hear Paramjeet ji, Prabhanjan, Vithal ji, Arghya, Surajit, Kishore fan, Raj, Anil Cherian, rafi fan, Dhaniram ji, etc. views on Saigal’s songs as well [Post 414 in Divine Voice Thread].
Sudheer,
Achha to aap ko Manish Kumar ki ki hui taarif nazar aati hai magar baaki logon ki ko hui ghatiya comments nazar nahi aati? Anil biswas, salil chaudhri, kishore, rd, lata, asha inke upar kiye hue ghatiya aur jaahil comments aapko nazar nahi aate? Waah bhai waah..
Aapko Rafi fans ko ‘atankvaadi’ ya ‘shemanatics’ bolne pe aitraaz hai magar unko aesa kyun bola jaata hai woh samajhne ki zaroorat nahi hai? Bahut shaandaar!
Rafians ko atankvaadi bolne pe aapka kehna hai ke aapne Kishore ko atankvaadi nahi bola. Kya main poochh sakata hoon, kya aaj kal criteria change ho gaya hai? Matlab yeh ke, Kishore to aap logon ke nazar mein Rafi ke barabar hai hi nahi, to shayad ab unhe Rafi bhakton ke saath hi compete karna padega 🙂 waise satyansh ji ka post kiya hua Myk ke purane post dekhiye. Wahan pe Kishore ki gayaki pe kiya hua ghatiya aur bachkana comments dekhiye. Waise comments agar mera ek bhi aap yahan pe dikha paye(Rafi ke upar), to waheguruji ki kasam, yeh forum chhodke hi chala jaaoonga.
aakhir mein, yeh Kishoreda ka forum hai, aur yahan pe jhund mein Rafi fans aa jaate hai apne apne agenda leke, jab ki yahan pe sabhi gayakon pe tatha sangeetkaron pe achhi baatein hoti hai. Ashcharya ki baat yeh hai, jab rafi.com mein ghatiya aur behuda tippaniyan hoti hai aur koi jaake thoda sa bhi prativaad karta hai is cheez ka, to use apmaanit karke , kutta bolke nikala jaata hai… Udaharan poochhna hai to poochh lijiye, dikha dunga.
Apni kayarta aur rajniti yahan pe mat laiyega aur jaake apne forum mein kuchh constructive kijiye. Bhagwan aaapko sadbuddhi de.
“See, when shamenatics say Rafi is unfallable, complete divine, the-all-end-all, etc, etc, why did his voice deteriorate? As they won’t ever answer this, I want now YOU to answer this.”
Hi Balyakar,
I agree with your sentiments. Rafi’s voice DID deteriorate in the 70s (but he still sang great songs even then). However, even during his prime, there are songs where he doesn’t sound great. There are songs for which where his critics are right to that his voice was too thin, to shrill, weak etc. He was a human being! Nevertheless, when I speak of these singers in general, I speak of them with consideration to how they defined themselves throughout their careers and what they mean to me. When I think of Rafi, I think of songs like “Kitna Pyara Vaada” as opposed to “Yamma Yamma Yamma” (duet with Asha music by Ravi, not the RD Burman song which was decent in its genre & time). Ironically, “Kitna Pyara Vaada” is a 1972 song that Vitthal mentioned as an example of Rafi’s deterioration. I don’t agree for that song. The reason I stress your post is because it is true that there are no absolutes in music. It’s sloppy to generalize as often as we do but we have to for the sake of expedient discussion. So if I say that Rafi has a sweet, fluid voice, I’m perfectly aware that people can give songs where indeed his voice was not the best suited or where maybe, according to us, it could have been used differently. But I say he has a sweet, silky smooth voice because that is how is voice is in many of his signature songs that defined him and for why we the fans love him. At the end of the day, everyone is a human being, including the singers, MDs, and fans like us.
Satyansh,
When I see something that I consider drivel, I ignore it rather than carefully read and document it like you! 🙂
Raj,
I don’t think that to compare two singers’ expressions that they have to sing the same songs. Just take the best example from Ghantasala and the best example from Rafi and see who can inject more natural fun. Rafi wins easily. Rafi vs Kishore is more interesting. Kishore wins for his style of fun but Rafi is very well balanced with fun, spontaneity, and professionalism and is unique himself in that regard. Kishore fans try to overemphasize Rafi’s professionalism to eclipse’ Rafi’s natural expressions but they are missing out. That’s my simple take.
I agree that Yesudas’ Malayam songs are even better than his Hindi songs. But I still thoroughly enjoyed his Hindi songs. You didn’t think Yesudas’ voice was velvet smooth in Chotisi Baat? We’ll just have to disagree 🙂
@Anil:
I don’t mind explaining what I wrote for Dhaniramji to explain the same for you. However, neither he, nor you, nor Rafibhakht, or anybody insisted for the list. But now that you asked, its here.
“List” For melody of voice not varying much from their 20’s till 70’s:
Hemant Kumar, Ghulam Ali, Mehdi Hassan, Jagjit Singh, Manna Dey (saw his concert just last year), Lata Mangeshkar, Vani Jayram, Asha Bhosle, S. Janaki, Yesudas
I expect Udit Narayan, Shankar Mahadevan, Kavitha Krishnamurty, and Sadhna Sargam to join that list too.
“List” for modulation of voice:
Ghantasaala, SPB, Kishore Kumar, S.Janaki, Asha Bhosle, and to some extent Alka Yagnik.
“You think that Rafi’s voice of the ’70s was a pale shadow of what it was in the ’50s. So what do you have to say about the quality of the other male singers (especially the more popular ones) of the ’70s? If someone can roll along with a much deteriorated voice, it doesn’t speak well of the others in the field, right?”
Now, you again and again miss the whole picture and just pick a sentence or two from my posts. See, when shamenatics say Rafi is unfallable, complete divine, the-all-end-all, etc, etc, why did his voice deteriorate? As they won’t ever answer this, I want now YOU to answer this. If you can pick my posts for others, you can as well please answer the questions that have been raised for Dhaniramji, et al.
Moreover, in what way is it connected if other singers (non-divine, non-fallable, non-all-square, etc ^ 4) voice deteriorated? If Rafi’s voice is divine and unfallable, why did it fall then? You have indirectly admitted Rafi’s voice in 70’s as not as good as 50’s.
“Moving on to post 1700, I was expecting to see some direct answers and some research from your side, but you decided to bounce things back on me and I’m not a fan of the rallying game (as you know).”
Just because you are a fan of serve-and-volley, does not mean you are a serve-and-volley player 😀
See, I have always maintained that I am more or less layman in music technicalities. Moreover, please re-post what were your questions? From whatever I remember, I have answered point-by-point your previous post.
Also, you have not clarified about the “assumptions” mentioned earlier. Hope its clear now 😛
“But I have to point out certain flaws in your logic/ arguments. Ravindra Jain didn’t work with Rafi much -either in semi-classical songs or other songs. Does that prove that Rafi couldn’t sing semi-classicals in the ’70s? Applying similar logic will you say Lataji couldn’t sing classical numbers in the ’70s just because Ravindra Jain didn’t give her such songs (RJ preferred Hemlata as you might know) Or will you say Manna Da couldn’t sing classicals once he was into his 50s (just because he wasn’t given any such songs in the ’70s?)”
I am not saying my points are flawless, rather I expect them to be there. Let me though point out that Lataji has sung quite good number of gazals, devotional songs, and very difficult songs in 70’s era as well as when she was in her 70’s. RJ may have used Hemlata, but Lata’s classical numbers did not decline as much as Rafi’s. I am speaking here numerically only. For Manna De, I am sure that there are pretty good numbers in Bengali at the least. The previous year too (at the age of 89) he did his last concert at Bangalore and left no doubt about his abilities. So brining in Manna De or Lata does not counter the point.
“A popular singer can be created and sustained if he has the right set of people around him and the better equipped ones can be pushed into oblivion.”
I agree with the “creation” part and not with the “sustained” part. Do you remember how a 1000 crore+ music company through its complete weight behind one female singer? They re-created Anuradha Paudwal, but did not manage to sustain for even more than 3 years. After that fiasco, the “other-pushed-into-oblivion” singers like Alka Yagnik, Kavitha Krishnamurthy, and Sadhna Sargam came back strongly and not the one who was to be created and sustained.
But there is one difference. Rafi has such good numbers in the 50’s itself that any music lover will never forget those songs. I can still listen to his “Nayya teri majhdar” song over any of his 70’s song (sparing Madan Mohan’s ones :)) See, the treasure of Rafi’s 50-70 is so rich that even if he had not sung a single song the rest of the lifetime, nobody can forget him. This just won’t happen.
“This has happened not just with Jayachandran but also with the HFM singer your guru have praised.”
I think you have forgotten that I don’t like Rafi or Kishore based on my guru’s praises. To know that Parushrama is great, Arjuna need not be told by Dronacharya. I hope you understand this.
“Finally, I have seen a lot of ‘We’s and ‘Us’s from you. What do they stand for? Is it SPB fans or SPB & Kishore fans or is it UAR (united against Rafi)?”
Strange!!! Everybody here understands it, but not you 🙁
I have heard about SPB fans earlier, also “SPB & Kishore fans”, but never this UAR. Its certainly insulting that you are putting me in that UAR club. For all this just point out just one SINGLE post of mine which is against Rafi, either at mohdrafi.com or at yoodleeyoo.com
Final thing Anil: You need not be scared of any UAR club, you should be having nightmares with SAR club: “Shamenatics And with Rafi” club.
@All: Just like some time back I had decided not to defend myself against comments on SPB, I think I will stop here replying and clarifying. Its really pointless that rafibhakt or dhaniram or others don’t reply. Similarly, I even see that Anil has not replied to many of the counter-points raised, and his silence on the shamenatics is truly indeed deafening.
Vitthal,
We are not talking about Stokes Theorem from vector calculus. Music is partially subjective. I admit that I have to be responsible when I apply the subjectivity. However, Vitthal, it is equally irresponsible, in my view, to ignore the subjectivity of music. Yes, I like Rafi’s voice better but I won’t claim that Rafi’s “Kuhu Kuhu” is better than Ghantasala’s. It isn’t. I acknowledge that Ghantasala was more highly trained and able in classical singing. However, a lot of Rafi’s songs in the hindi film industry did not demand that level of training and you cannot hold that against Rafi. Songs like “Kuhu Kuhu” are few and far in between Rafi’s 5000+ songs or the hundreds of gems that define him and for which we love Rafi. The difference between the classical ability of Rafi & Ghantasala does not factor at all for songs like “Aaj Mausam Bada Beimaan Hai”. Rafi has perfect control of sur in such songs.
I respect Ghantasala’s classical skills. I respect that the Siva Sankari song from “Jagadeka Veeruni Katha” is technically more demanding than “Badi Der Bhaii” from Basant Bahaar. Here’s where you and I differ: how technically difficult a song is to sing is not all that matters. I still like Rafi’s expression of emotions better in Basant Bahar. I relate to his expressions in that song perfectly. That counts for something. Judging only the technical aspect and ignoring the subjective leads to conclusions that are incomplete and don’t tell the whole story. It will give you specious, theoretical conclusions that do not apply to the reality of Rafi’s career. If you and I cannot agree on this (and I respect your disagreement), then we have nothing further to debate. Let’s just understand each other’s different values & criteria and call it a day.
You say that I cannot appreciate Ghantasala’s expressions or the fun he injects into songs because I don’t speak Telegu. There’s some truth to that but this is not a simple, cut and dried matter. There is great variety for how much a person can appreciate songs in a language foreign to him. It depends on the individual and the language itself. In some cases, the person can reasonably sense the emotions of a song in a language foreign to him whereas another individual cannot appreciate the song due to the language barrier. One cannot generalize this. I honestly believe that I get a reasonable grasp of Ghantasala’s emotions in his “fun songs”. You don’t have to accept that. He just doesn’t inject fun as naturally and fluidly as Rafi. That’s my opinion only and like music itself, it is very personal. I’m not sharing my views to change yours or to prove a theory. I’m only sharing my views for the enjoyment.
Having said all the above, I want to make some things very clear. You have been stating that you have “proven” Ghantasala is superior to Rafi or that Rafi fans “accept” Ghantasala’s superiority. (1) Ghantasala was more highly trained and able in classical skills. I will that the industry shaped the individual. Music in the South placed much greater importance to technical skills so Ghantasala honed himself for it. Hindi Film Industry did not place emphasis to the *same extent* and so Rafi had limited training. I won’t hold that against Rafi. (2) Rafi’s technical skills exceeded almost all the songs he was asked to sing in the Hindi Film Industry. There are exceptions but they are extreme outliers that don’t have much relevance in the reality of the industry (theoretials & hypotheticals are a different matter). (3) *Generally*, Rafi had a more beautiful voice (I know you’re going to love this! :)) Exceptions include songs where Rafi was not comfortable (Baat Chalat) or where the MD wanted him to yell. But we can find exceptions for any singer. (4) Rafi had far, far better expression of emotions. He could inject fun and romance into songs fluidly and naturally that Ghantasala could not match. This is extremely important to me (5) Rafi was a far, far better singer than Ghantasala for the Hindi film industry for songs like “Yeh Hai Bombay Meri Jaan” or “Ab Kya Misaal Doon. Likewise, Ghantasala was a better singer for songs “Kuhu Kuhu” that place greater importance on technical ability than just voice & expression. Is this confusing for you? Is it not cut and dried? It doesn’t need to be. This is not a simple matter. Since Rafi is the better singer for the songs that I enjoy the most, in my view, he is overall the better singer. This is subjective and I’m fine with that 🙂 (6) If you like Ghantasala and I like Rafi, we’re both happy. No need to get ruffled. All that matters, at the end of the day, is what music does for us individually. (7) I enjoy Rafi’s “kind” of songs better than Ghantasala’s “kind” of song. I add the quotes because both were very versatile so it’s tough to generalize them but for simplicity I have referred to their songs generally.
If you don’t like my subjectivity then take peace in your abstract conclusions. 🙂
Surajit Bose,
I am aware of the songs you listed. I do not take rare exceptions and treat them as the norm. One may say that “Baat Chalat” demonstrates a “fundamental shortcoming” in Rafi that defines him as a singer. That is a specious argument. Just because he did not have the classical ability to the extent that “Baat Chalat” required, does not mean that he was lacking for all the songs that he sang as a singer. Why didn’t you list “Aaj Mausam Bada Beimaan Hai”, “Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon”, and “Yeh Mera Prem Patra” as examples where Rafi falls short technically? Oh right, because he sang them flawlessly like he did with almost all of the songs he attempted and that defined him. That’s the reality. I care for reality over abstract theory.
I have complete respect for a “layman” fan’s opinion if he has heard the song and speaks from the heart. What matters ultimately is what music does for your heart. In this regard, music does not have to be an academic subject. One does not need classical training to appreciate Rafi’s “Aaja Aaja Main Hoon Pyar Tera”. However, if one tries to claim that Rafi is technically better than Kishore (“layman” Rafi fan as you say) or that Kishore “overtook” Rafi in the 70s purely because of musical merit (“layman” Kishore fan), then he is delving into academic waters of technicality or mass media culture. I have not made such attempts. In fact, even before your post I acknowledged that for songs like “Kuhu Kuhu” Ghantasala is technically better than Rafi.
The several dozens of songs like “Husn Bhi Hai Udas” are not what defined Kishore Kumar. If you want to continue talking about “layman” fans, then many “layman” Kishore Kumar fans will cite “Apni Tu Jaise Taise” as what makes Kishore Kumar great 🙂 To be honest, I have no problem with that. We are not here to tell people what songs they can or cannot enjoy. If “Apni Tu Jaise Taise” excites crowds at parties, I respect that. Getting back, you can say that “Husn Bhi Hai Udas” fundamentally defines Kishore Kumar but I wish this had applied in the 70s and 80s too when Kishore Kumar sang the bulk of his songs. Quality is far more important than quantity but one must also consider just how much or how little certain songs defined a singer’s career. To be fair, Rafi has probably sang just as many mediocre songs as Kishore, like Yamma Yamma Yamma. But if you look at the hundreds of great songs that define Rafi and then look at the hundreds of songs that define Kishore Kumar, there’s a clear cut difference. Both have excellent in control of sur but Rafi has greater versatility and perfect expression of emotions behind individual syllables.
You can site Kishore Kumar’s improvisations or vocal acrobatics in “Jhumroo” or “Padosan”. I respect those talents of Kishore but I have even greater value for Rafi’s talents. Fortunately, we don’t have to choose one or the other (unless it’s a Rafi vs Kishore discussion) but can enjoy both.
it is really hotting up
Ghantasala Rafi Leave them alone. They were the pillars of Indian Film songs
it is insulting our own great people like them
Post 1724 and 1723 – Satyansh ji,
Exactly hit at points for MYK ji. The posts are similar to many rafi fans, who while acknowledging ghantasala’s superiority over rafi (similar to one rafi fan here very recently) somehow end up claiming rafi’s band wagon. All the comments made there under are purely childish.
MYK ji,
No body will be in agreement (including pandit gyan prakash ji and even your own conscience) if you say rafi’s songs are nearer to “Siva Sankari” (no song of rafi is even nearer). There should be at least some truth in what you say, agreed your admiration for rafi is well taken, but I would like to state that any discussion/comparison of rafi’s songs with renditions like siva sankari of ghantasala will be like taking a chance for making comparison of rivers (rafi’s songs) with the gigantic ocean itself. Have you heard siva sankari song before making such comments MYK ji.
Next MYK ji, could you kindly enlighten us Why kishore became more popular from 69 onwards ? What happened to rafi’s popularity ? It would be really interesting to know the truths from knowledgable rafians like you.
Kindly also clarify, if rafi is a cllassical exponent as you stated then, why Rafi mentioned, he listens to manna dey for singing classical songs and his respect for saigal as Father of hindi playback singing.
Further, our surajit bose bhai’s post on kishore kumar here – what do you say on that?
Surajit,
We have gone through it all… with the same set of songs too. Shall we start it afresh?
Vithalji,
I’m sorry I can’t post links to Yesu Das Malayalam songs here. If you want to listen to some, I can share it elsewhere.
Balarykar,
First off, I would like to see all those ‘lists’ that you talked about (in post 1699). It’d be interesting.
You think that Rafi’s voice of the ’70s was a pale shadow of what it was in the ’50s. So what do you have to say about the quality of the other male singers (especially the more popular ones) of the ’70s? If someone can roll along with a much deteriorated voice, it doesn’t speak well of the others in the field, right?
Moving on to post 1700, I was expecting to see some direct answers and some research from your side, but you decided to bounce things back on me and I’m not a fan of the rallying game (as you know). But I have to point out certain flaws in your logic/ arguments. Ravindra Jain didn’t work with Rafi much -either in semi-classical songs or other songs. Does that prove that Rafi couldn’t sing semi-classicals in the ’70s? Applying similar logic will you say Lataji couldn’t sing classical numbers in the ’70s just because Ravindra Jain didn’t give her such songs (RJ preferred Hemlata as you might know) Or will you say Manna Da couldn’t sing classicals once he was into his 50s (just because he wasn’t given any such songs in the ’70s?)
I wasn’t referring only to the deterioration in the quality of songs post ’69. The Jayachandran incident is a pretty recent one and you can very well find out for yourself what exactly happened. A popular singer can be created and sustained if he has the right set of people around him and the better equipped ones can be pushed into oblivion. This has happened not just with Jayachandran but also with the HFM singer your guru have praised.
Finally, I have seen a lot of ‘We’s and ‘Us’s from you. What do they stand for? Is it SPB fans or SPB & Kishore fans or is it UAR (united against Rafi)?
Surajit Bose ji, Welcome sir,
After a long time – a beautiful post as usual. I am fully with you on the focus on “Sur” – even srivas ji had highlighted this many times for kishore kumar.
The rafi fan here is just arguing subjectively with limited knowledge and nothing much inference need to be drawn from it.
Raj – 1728
An interesting post by you and paramjeet ji as well. Rafi fan (like the one here) needs to develop respect for all legends by developing patience and perseverance and by hearing their songs.
Srivasji – a nice post on PB Srinivas and his songs, yes I had heard that kannada song of PBS and certainly with you on that regarding PBS rendition of even tougher songs in telugu – Surely correct. PBS is a nice singer.
SATYANSH ji – Your previous posts to MYK ji,
THIS POST (of which type will be last one my me in this forum) IS ONLY BETWEEN YOU, ME AND MYK JI, (all others need to kindly excuse me for this para as this is totally unnecessary in this esteemed kishore forum and I wanted to reply to MYK ji as the post had come up for discussion now) -The esteemed moderator, Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji and all my friends to excuse me for this.
MYK ji, this discussion I wanted to put only as sharing replies to the posts which satyansh ji had put forth, and for removing the notion that any ghantasala fan failed to reply to such posts earlier. Hope you take it in a pure sportive way and nothing serious and ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON FACTOR OR ANY SUBJECTIVITY PLEASE.
Satyansh ji, As you mentioned in your previous posts, I fully agree with you that the comments made by MYK ji earlier are out of sheer ignorance and appear fully childish (of which i made a reference to MYK ji many times). I purposefully avoided the question of MYK ji whenever he raised rafi’s song in laila majnu (which I have carefully heard by rafi) with regard to ghantasala’s capability, because I knew that the rendition of the similar type of song of laila majnu was much below for the dignity/capability of ghantasala, (as you rightly put it) and I did not want to hurt MYK ji for his feeling for the song of rafi. By the way, I do not find the laila majnu song in any way difficult ? Perhaps MYK ji admires the deep alaap in the end, which is again a waning factor before many of the more difficult alaaps which ghantasala had easily taken. And comparison of that song with siva sankari – again a sheer ignorance. One Mr. Singh had asked in true voice col. to MYK ji and other rafi fans as well, whether rafi has atleast near type rendition of the syamala dandakam of ghantasala, for which no rafian had replied till date, as I am clearly aware that rafi do not have any rendition even nearer to the type of aforesaid renditions of ghantasala, which were rendered only in one takes by ghantasala, a fact which was very intelligently ignored by many rafians as they had to give in for the questions of Mr. singh. Mr. Singh had stated that syamala dandakam (which belongs to the sanskrit padyam genre and composed in 8 ragas) is a distant dream for any singer, and rafi could not even dream to attempt such type of song, which was however rendered in only one take by ghantasala – no reply from any rafians , this question was specifially addressed to dhaniram ji when he brought subah na aayee song of rafi and then Mr. Khan, openly asked dhaniram ji to just shut up and further stated that subah na aayee —- is like a child before the father siva sankari which have very wide genres.
Even one question was raised, did rafi sustain the highest note in music that is top sa in any rendition? No reply from any rafian including MYK ji, Wheras ghantasala has done it in syamala dandakam very easily. The three octave vocal range of ghantasala (even KJ Yesudas was special in this range) vis-a-vis two octave vocal range of rafi was challenged many times (many rafians whom I know clearly openly admit the superior voice range of ghantasala – including a well known leader of the rafi foundation, everybody knows him & who has personally acknowledged this with me – I do not want to write more as I do not want to upset my rafian friends ) but there were no replies from any rafi fans, the answer was clear, as carefully replies were avoided.
One Mr. AR, a ghantasala fan has asked whether rafi did attempt genres like padyams, hari kathas, burra kathas, janapada sangeet etc. (which are special in telugu industry and which ghantasala was a adept master) and there were no replies, & I know that rafi had not attempted any such genres.
Satyansh ji, these were all past facts which just came out by sheer ignorance and incomplete knowledge, but I am sure that MYK ji (he has to agree with me now) has after interaction in this forum, has certainly changed his views, yes I know that he continues to admire rafi with insatiable admiration and hopefully in a way similar to me and in a different way.
MYK ji,
I am a registered member in ghantasala website and I just wish to convey you (as a true friend of mine) that ghantasala fans never accept/think of any singer even coming close. The same quotations which rafians use such as sun, god’s voice for rafi, same terms exactly are used in ghantasala website also nevertheless with more authority, but one thing is quite clear that fans of ghantasala just do not discuss about any other singer in his site, as they ever quote that there cannot be any discussion on ghantasala with any other musician. (on the other hand they never criticise any artist as well, as they do not disuss about anybody and hence there is no need for criticism) Why I wrote this para is only to bring to your kind notice that you will realise that why such admiration ghantasala enjoys – hope you get the answer. Even I had shared earlier an article from ghantasala website, perhaps the ONLY website of a singer, which openly states that rafi is hardly any match for ghantasala as a singer and musician. No other website of any other singer has such kind of statement and sure it cannot be as rafi is a “stalwart of music” in his own way and about this there is no doubt. Even the wikepedia of which a link I have shared here, (You can please refer) states, that whatever ghantasala rendered is always fully perfect and melodious and he had changed the course of music history of the southern music.
Just for sharing my views are the above paras and nothing to take seriously anything from the posts MYK ji. I hope you understand my posts in a true , friendly and deep and objective way.
Paramjeet,
Hi, I am Sudheer here, posting for the first time and a staunch rafi fan. Hope you do not take any offence for this.
Kishore is a good singer and I like him in some songs. Everybody has his own taste and if one does not agree with you, would it be proper for you to call them or label them as “terrorists” or aatankvadi. This is really a very “shamenatic” term (according to Mr. Balarykar) even more than the ones used by fans of any other singers. Never have any rafi fan used “such great term as aatankavadi” or even nearer to any such term for kishore.
I do not agree with you that rafi fans have criticised other legends. You can see many posts in mohdrafi.com wherein many rafi fans have immensely praised ghantasala and his specialised skills, (even many rafians have stated him as superior to rafi across various genres). Why is it so ? Reply dena paramjeet ji or slip mat kijiye mere prashn ko. (You had similarly challenged dhani ram ji here)
Similarly, kishore too had been admired by rafians, such as manish kumar (in mohdrafi.com) – jawab jaroor dijiyega paramjeet ji
You are yourself aware that the influence cast by rafi ji is immense in hindi film playback singing. Could you make out for kishore whether he sang for close to 200 music directors as rafi did. One cannot rest on RD Burman alone and conclude that the music history is changed. Certainly not. Pancham da is surely great and why he used more kishore is due to some specific reasons which you are aware and not that he is better than rafi. If that was really, then rafi would not have been used by RDB at any point of time, but that is not so. It is true that all legends have their own skills, but to a more extent in various genres (if not all ) rafi (by virtue of his versatality) had cast his influence than others in hindi film world. This is where rafi appears special. Even Your own Mr. arghya states that kishore cannot come close to Man tarpat song, what does this state ? You have to agree that Rafi and lata have been rated as the greatest playback singers by the hero honda …… in hindi film world and the basis has been in terms of contribution as well as popularity.
Jawab dena mat bhooliyega paramjeet ji, pure sawalon ka ek ek karke.
Thanks
Sudheer
Rafi lovers
THE POST 1695 OF PARAMJEET JI HAS NOT BEEN RESPONDED BY ANY RAFI LOVER. RAFI BHAKT BHAG GAYE PARAMJEET JI KA PRASHNA SUN KAR.
Balarykar,
Ili duba tayi, is a nice song and attractive composition. But, in my view certainly cannot be counted in any away among difficult compositions. I do not have the link for a song (which is in medium octave only) of P B Srinivas of telugu in the film Rani Ratnaprabha sung under the Music Direction of S Rajeswara Rao, the song is technically as well as musically great, and really such songs should be presented while discussing about P B Srinivas. The song in rani ratnaprabha should have been originally sung by ghantasala but PBS had sung the song (I am not aware of the reasons) for NTR in that film and the song, as far as I remember, is composed in the Hamir Kalyani Raga. By the way, have you heard Krishna Yadubhushana song by PBS in Sri Krishna Pandaveeyam and Sri Raghuram song (by PBS and PS) from Santinivasam film, which are also nice to hear and tougher compositions than the song presented by you. Just imagine, santinivasam was music directed by ghantasala and he sang all the songs in that film but chose PBS for the devotional Sri Raghuram, which PBS had delivered nicely. So, in my view, certainly the kannada song is nice to hear, but while projecting PBS talents, I think these type of songs should find a place.
rafi fan @ 1716,
Regarding your point to Arghya, you forget that there is a reason that some Kishore fans harp on the “classical” part.
The fact is a lot of the rafi “laymen” fans claim Rafi to be a superior singer to Kishore based on the “evidence” that Rafi has many classical songs to his credit while Kishore does not.
And so those of us who had the privilege to learn classical music recognize the fact that this is not as black and white as it appears.
I cannot stress enough that the first and foremost goal of classical vocal training is to achieve control over and mastery of Sur. All the “harkats”, “taans” are of no consequence if this primary goal is not achieved. Rafi may have a lot more classical songs to his credit, but those that he did a decent job in (for eg., Madhuban mein radhika) did not have truly challenging parts (to be considered a true classical song). While those that did have difficult parts (like “Jhananan jhan” and “Baat chalat nayee rang” from “Rani Roopmati”), he cut a sorry figure.
Further, most people miss the point that Rafi was pretty weak in the lower registers. His voice assumes a husky texture and loses it’s clarity. Kishore’s voice betrays no such discomfort. That is why Rafi had no songs noteworthy of his talent (as in the middle and upper registers where he was very comfortable) in the Saigal and Talat style.
The truth is they are a lot closer to each other overall. It’s just that their approach to singing, their voices, their styles are very different. It’s like saying, for example, that Gavaskar is a better batsman than Richards.
Here are a couple of songs that illustrate my point.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=LVJplSM0YI8&v=suZPPgnsKhc
Listen to the last 35 secs and you get my point as regards classical singing.
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=VbE8ZEgMIok&v=SoQJIy8o9Qc
Rafi cuts a really sorry figure here. He is just out of his league.
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=23wHmmHevaA&feature=related
Here you can see Rafi’s clear discomfort in the lower registers, esp. in the mukhda. He wouldn’t have been able to sing this song in the ’60’s.
Now, listen to these songs by Kishore:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNs-2Xe76Vg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=uLL_MbcHBFM&feature=related
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=1DnX-T9BQZ4&feature=related
The first song illustrates the suppleness and flexibility of his voice as he switches effortlessly across registers. It also shows his comfort in the lower registers.
The second song shows his skill in singing songs in the Talat style.
The third song is clearly in the Saigal style.
The trouble with Kishore, as opposed to Rafi, is that he makes it look easy. The singing is so smooth that all the hard work and artistry is overlooked. The rest make it much more obvious that singing well is hard work. It’s easy to admire “O Duniya ke rakhwaale” because every part of the song calls attention to itself as a “classical song that is difficult to sing”. Admiration is the expected, and lazy, reaction.
Hello music lovers,
All the music artists have their own talents.
Mr. Balarykar’s post of all rounders in cricket is nice to read.
All cannot be all rounders. True, if everybody is rafi and ghantasala, it would be really a different thing.
By the way, both hindi and southern music are two different corners and in my view, similar talents (contribution and fame wise) i.e similarities exist between both. In my view, the same can be as follows:
HINDI FAMOUS SOUTH FAMOUS
Mohd. rafi Ghantasala V Rao
Kishore Kumar SPB, Yesudas
Mukesh A M Raja
Saigal M S Rama Rao
Manna de P B Srinivas, T M Sounderrajan
Lata P Suseela
Asha Bhonsle S Janaki
Anuradha Paudwal Chitra
Among the above Saigal (early 40’s ) and Ghantasala (1942 – 1974) were the first (famous singers till date) who are revered as father’s of the respective industries.
Rafi fan, specially for you, this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghantasala_Venkateswara_Rao
MYK ji,
DIFFICULT TO FIND A SINGER LIKE KISHORE KUMAR – FOLLOWING DEBATE SHOULD BE INTERESTING FOR YOU.
It is true that Ghantasala, rafi, Manna, yesudas etc. were trained singers in classical music more than Kishore. But kishore was also trained in music, (Arghya ji had stated this in one post in divine voice of devotional kishore col.) and it should be noted that, as discussed by many of our friends who are incidentally trained in music such as Surajit bose ji, Srivas Ji, Paramjeet ji, Lalith ji, etc. have stated that you cannot find any flaw in kishore’s renditions from a technical point of view. Moreover, my friend it has to be remembered that if a singer is faulty from technical point of view, he cannot sing a song without being criticised by the music director or in other words a music director will not okay his song. Even he cannot reach top heights. Kishore was such a singer, who was appreciated by music directors of 70’s in particular RDB who was technically sound and further had reached great heights which can be termed as unsurpassable by any singer in hindi post 70’s. Futher, the great heights are reached BY SINGING HUNDREDS OF SUCCESSFUL SONGS WHICH CONTINUE TO BE APPRECIATED BY MASSES EVEN TODAY I.E AFTER DECADES OF HIS PASSING AWAY. In your own words “praise by any one who is steeped in music certainly means a lot”. Thus, praise by RDB (who is a great music director) on kishore certainly, certainly means a lot. What do you say my friend ? So in my clear view, one cannot conclude there is any flaw in kishore’s renditions. Lalith ji and Srivas ji, our friends here and trained musicians have clearly stated many times in no uncertain terms that the clarity voice of kishore is really amazing and kishore has to be really appreciated, because with lesser training he had created wonders in hindi film world. Can you show any other singer in hindi film world who had achieved such success (even as all rounder) with such lesser training. The answer will be certainly No.
It is true that (even arghya ji and paramjeet ji say this) that both rafi and kishore cannot be brought close to ghantasala like singer in technical ability, but at the same time, as stated by many, one cannot find any flaw in kishore’s ability as a singer due to the reasons stated above.
Even my friend kishore fan ji’s comment, you might have read, that kishore’s voice too was clear with depth somewhat nearer to voice of ghantasala and had kishore been similarly trained in lines with ghantasala, the situation would have been certainly different. I mean to say that kishore voice was also very attractive, the kishore fan following of today is a clear indicator to that. I think you may agree with my above views on kishore’s ability and talent as a singer.
Rafi fan,
Your words, ghantasala is superior in very technical songs. Are man, please remember, it is the first and foremost qualification of a musician and singer that he has to be technically sound for becoming an efficient singer. From a music angle, i.e. as per the rules of music, fun, comic and all other gimmicks come next only to technical ability. So, purely, in my view, a person who is ahead in technical ability is certainly superior as a MUSICIAN. My friend kishore fan had once stated, which everybody agrees, that classical singing is the mother of playback singing and not vice versa please. I hope you got what I wanted to say. I have heard some of rafi and ghantasala similar songs such as kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya etc. (I think you might have also heard the same) and I am quite clear that ghantasala is clearly ahead than rafi in those similar renditions. Regarding your fun songs of rafi, you can know who has rendered it well, only if ghantasala has rendered the similar song of rafi in telugu, otherwise, your conclusion will certainly go wrong. Telugu fun songs or other language songs , (due to language stream differences) will be certainly different in expressions etc. as compared to hindi songs. So comparing rafi fun songs with telugu fun songs will not be a completely correct thing and arriving at a conclusion that rafi is superior – certainly no. Incidentally, Vithal ji, had once shared a comedy song by ghantasala – sundari nee vanti, – it was really excellent and amazing, the expressions were great, one can easily catch the funny essence, even if you are not conversant with the language. That is really great (Even Satyansh ji, arghya ji and paramjeet ji had appreciated the song) Certainly, the appreciations would have been more if telugu language knowledge was there, in my view, as Vitthal ji, mentions.
Next, jaaneman song of yesudas, it is just a ordinary song. I could not get the funny essence or velvet or sweet effect in that voice. Could you clarify what do you mean in your post for the song jaaneman.
Satyansh ji & Paramjeet ji,
Satyansh ji, – to my knowledge it was one Mr. Unknow, (now posting as Ali) who mixed religion with music many times, in mohdrafi.com.
Rafi fan
Further, the jaaneman song of yesudas which you have presented, I do not think, it is a velvet and sweet voice, and also fun as you say – simply by no means, it is a romantic type number for sure. I know yesudas songs pretty well, where in he has shown beautiful voice effects in telugu as well as malayalam, but this hindi song is no where close to songs of yesudas in those languages. Particularly late 70’s and 80’s songs of yesudas in malayalam you can find his nice voice effects, and Anil, who is a yesudas fan (Anil Cherian for sure – correct anil ji) can throw certainly more light on this and I request anil to post some yesudas songs from the early 80’s period in malayalam, as I am unable to get links for the same. Rafi fan, you will surely find a marked difference of yesudas in these languages as compared to his hindi ones.
Rafi fan Ji, (Could you kindly confirm your name, because I know other rafi fans posting by this name)
Thanks for your views on ghantasala (nice to hear about them) By the way you will agree with me that human voice depends upon age factor and naturally undergoes change. for instance, if you hear tajmahal songs or kashmir ki kali songs of rafi, then the songs of laila majnu or kitna pyara wada etc. really fade before the above songs of rafi. For instance yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, see the beautiful modulations presented by rafi in that particular song, in my view, has not been similarly presented to that degree in rafi numbers of 70’s. Note the change in voice factor. Similarly, if you hear ghantasala’s voice of late 60’s and 70’s (songs are in hundreds) , you will find the depth, command and technical ability intact, but sure, the velvet smoothness effect as compared to his 50’s and early 60’s voice is certainly less. Further, coming to fun songs and other genres (other than classical and semi classical – which have to be appreciated by any music lover by virtue of the inherent quality of those genres), you cannot completely catch the essence unless you are well conversant with the telugu language, and you have to stop only at the level of musical technicalities. And you will believe me, from the language point of view, no other singer can render more better, such type of fun genres. Not only ghantasala, you have to hear other southern telugu singers in these genres and you certainly will know how ghantasala stands ahead. Thus, southern and hindi music, these differences will persist. Even the same case happens with telugu people, I have seen, many do not accept even rafi’s fun songs (again same logic can be applied here) due to lack of hindi language. Hope you get the point.
Similarly, same take it for kishore kumar also, the effect which he creates in his chalti kaanam gadi, is really absent in aradhana and subsequent songs (in my view and arghya ji can correct me if I am wrong) though from 69 onwards, kishore rose to a commendable level which in a way projected a matured level of singing surely to be appreciated by masses till date.
So, what I mean to say is that with the age factor the voice factor also undergoes a change.
To know more about ghantasala, I request you to please have a look at the following article (which I had posted earlier here) and you will know what I mean.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/02/11/stories/2003021100450100.htm
And just hear this song and please convey your views on beautiful melody and velvet/soft effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_DwpLPQEYI
(Arghya ji, and Satyansh, pl. your views as well as this was not posted earlier)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTLe6NnSdUY&feature=related
(just hear this melodious tragedy song with sharabi effect, which I posted earlier )
Rafi fan ji, hope you agree with me after you hear the songs above. (of course, please remember the language point of mine, without which knowledge complete appreciation might not come)
Sardar Raghuveer singh saab, 1718 (and all my dear music lovers),
Many thanks for your post and views.
This is the reply for your question on ghantasala’s contribution in hindi. (this is simply copied from a post on mohd rafi.com and I have not discovered this)
“Ghantasala was the music director for four hindi films:
1. PAATAAL BHAIRAVI (1952)
2. JHANDAA OONCHAA RAHE HAMAARAA (1964)
3. PAANDAV BANVAAS (1973)
4. LUV KUSH (1974) ( My comment on this : The telugu version Lava Kusa music directed by ghantasala is simply great – ran for 365 days – ghantasala had innumerable incomparable songs and padyams – In hindi there are no male songs or padyams – only female songs of telugu singers are there i.e dubbed – the film is dubbed in hindi – reason stated was there was no hindi singer in hindi who could really do justice to the tunes which were composed and sung by ghantasala himself in telugu, that is why only female singers songs have been dubbed in hindi)
Ghantasala sang following 3 songs in hindi films:
1. LAKSHMEEM KSHEER SAMUDRARAAJ TANYAAM SHRI RANG (SUWARNA SUNDARI) (1958) (MD–ADI NAARAAYAN RAO)
2. JHANDAA OONCHAA (JHANDAA OONCHAA RAHE HAMAARAA) (1964) (MD–GHANTASALA+GANDHARVA)
3. NAMOH BRAHAMANYA DEVAAYE (PAANDAV BANVAAS) (1973) (MD–GHANTASALA+RAAGHAVULU)
the 1 & 3 are sanskrit slokas already sung in telugu films and the same have been retained in Hindi– the 2nd one is a hindi filmy song i.e only one song is perhaps sung by ghantasala in hindi and that too going by the version of it is a national song and not purely filmy composition (Of course I have not heard this). So virtually, Ghantasala has not sung any song in Hindi (to my knowledge)
Rafi ji has sung following songs in Jhanda ooncha rahe hamara film in hindi under the music direction of Ghantasala
1. parvat dera pyaar bhara
2. bhudha ki pukaar sun
The song jhanda ooncha rahe hamara in the film is sung by ghantasala himself.
I am not clearly aware of the film jhanda ooncha rahe hamara, i.e. why ghantasala music directed it and who made it, history behind it etc. I would be grateful if any rafi fans could enlighten on this.
Perhaps MYK ji or Rafi fan etc. could throw some light on this.
myk,
Some more gibberish from you in the True Voice Thread. Do you still stand by these comments? Look forward to a healthy discussion. ENJOY!!!
Post 810:
“…If someone says Rafi doesn’t have a manly voice, it should be ignored. Rafi had the best manly voice, it was such a unique and versatile voice, rich in tonal quality, vibrant, golden and unique. It wasn’t nasal, nor shrill, it was just perfect. His voice had the right amount of bass as well, not too much and not too less, just perfect. Rafi’s voice was truly a once in a lifetime voice…”
So, … Rafi had the best manly voice? Kishore fans might not take a liking to this very subjective claim.
Post 824:
“…Can any Ghantasala fan on this forum point me to a Ghantasala song that is as difficult or as challenging as “Likhar tera naam zamin par” ?…”
lol – do you seriously think a man of Ghantasala’s capability doesn’t have songs that are “as difficult or as challenging as” the aforementioned song? You need to stop obsessing with that song.
Post 844:
“…I have heard those songs by Ghantasala in Telegu, they are great, but he doesn’t match up to Rafi as a singer. Ghantasala is definitely a great singer, but as Ilayaraaja said, “Rafi is Rafi”, there is abslutely no comparison. The Siva Sankari song is not as difficult as the song from Laila Majnu, Rafi has sang many classical songs with ease similar to the one from that film, and also many classical songs that are much tougher.
I would like to see a Ghantasala song in the same league as “Likhar tera naam zamin par”. If there is one, I still would not put him in the same class as Rafi, but since Ghantasala fans claim he is as good as Rafi and can sing songs that are similar to Rafi songs, it would be interesting to find a song similar to this…”
Again – haha. This just keeps getting funnier.
Post 957:
“…It’s a joke to compare Kishore or any singer to Rafi. To say Kishore showed more authority in his vocal range than Rafi in his vocal range shows ignorance and blindness of the truth. “Koi humdum na raha” is definitely not in the same vocal range as “Man tarpat hari darshan ko”. The Rafi song has a much higher level of difficulty, more wider vocal range, and is way out of KK’s capabilities as a singer. Rafi was definitely much better than Kishore, and showed much more authority over his range, as well as had a much better and wider range, its a proven fact…”
Again, this reeks of Rafi-fanaticism
Post 1029:
“…Rafi was the best male playback singer and classical singer by far. Manna Dey and KC Dey who were more trained than him in classical music, as well as Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh also were of the same view, as well as countless others. It’s a joke to compare KLS to Rafi in terms of classical singing, he was no where close…Nope, why should you take the classical element out, when Rafi was virtually the best classical singer ?. Just because Kishore lacked classical ability, it doesn’t mean you should take it out for Rafi. You are wrong, Kishore never had the voice, nor emoting capabilities of Rafi. His pronounciation is nothing compared to Rafi. Only an amateur in music would mention such lethargic statements…Leaving aside subjective opinions, based on musical qualifications, no one touches Rafi. You can be as critical as you want of Rafi, but sorry to say he had no weaknesses. Whereas Kishore had many flaws, many blemishes, and many drawbacks…I would not take Salil’s comments seriously, what he is saying is rubbish. He has also mentioned that Rafi was the greatest of all time. I don’t think the Maya story is true, as Rafi was the only singer with the fastest pick-up, as pointed out by most MD’s. Rafi hardly needed retakes on any song, but he was very particular about rehearsals because he was a perfectionist…Kishore did not have that much abilities as a singer. If he did he would have been taken seriously as a singer much earlier, and not only when he was handed a break by the Burmans…Rafi is the first and last word in singing, and nothing you or others say will change this fact…”
So, you’ve engaged in Saigal-bashing too. If you consider yourself so qualified as to deride Saigal, why don’t you answer Paramjeet’s question?
Post 1051:
“…The point is that no matter what you say, you will never prove that Kishore was equal to Rafi. Rafi will always remain the greatest singer of all time…its simply clear that Rafi was arguably the best male singer for classical songs. “Madhuban mein radhika” is the best exponent of Raag Hameer to this day. Rafi was the best at singing any type of songs, from raag-based gems to western songs to any type, you name it and he was the best at it…Kishore songs also have the “noise” and “irritating” factor because his voice in general was not sweet, nor melodious, and was loud and not soothing. The only “true-tone” voice was Rafi’s voice who’s voice was very golden, very sweet, very smooth, very flexible, full of different shades, had perfect tonal quality, very melodious and like mount everest. Kishore’s voice was a mixed bag, on a good day his voice was just good, nothing outstanding, but in general it had a shrill, and was not flexible at all. His voice many a times seemed as if a tire was running over it (no disrespects meant to Kishore)…”
So you can see into the future, eh??
myk,
I did not really want to address a person who said “…some people were jealous of Rafi’s talents because they could not come to terms that here was a man from Lahore who ruled HFM…”, however I wanted to see if you are open to justifying many of your statements. To your statement of bias amongst fans of other singers because of your claim that Rafi was from Lahore: Does someone become Lahori by staying there for a few years? Why did Rafi not go to Pakistan like Noorjehan? Couldn’t it be that Rafi actually considered himself Indian? Aren’t there people like Kalam who appreciate India and contribute to it’s success? Personally, I have no respect for those who bring religion, nationality, politics, regional differences, etc. in anything … particularly music. I don’t think religion, nationality, etc. should come in the way of music. Do you think your statement above (you have made other similar statements) and the need of claiming bias because Rafi was from Lahore is justified?
All it took me was to search your name on the True Voice Thread and copy/paste here. The first excerpt is actually one of the very first posts by you that came up. Hope you take responsibility instead of shying away, getting defensive and counter-questioning. FYI, this post is mostly a copy/paste of your outlandish remarks, but I do sincerely mean to straighten things out if possible.
Another quote from you below [Post 649]:
“…I don’t think there should be a debate vis a vis Ghantasala and Rafi. There is absolutely no comparison. Rafi was and will remain the benchmark…Forget about all other genres, romantic, pathos, qawwali’s, bhajans, ghazals, pop/western songs and so forth, there is no match to Rafi. He had the voice for all genres, and the range to fit them all and more, that Ghantasala or any other singer does not come even close…Agreed Ghantasala was excellent in semi-classical numbers but that does not make him superior to Rafi in this aspect. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the classical guru always considered Rafi to be the best exponent of classical songs. Rafi could always go deep into the essence of a classical song, which made his classical numbers stand out even amongst the ones sung by Manna Dey. To top it all off, Rafi had such a range that he could master classical songs without a lot of training…Likhar Tera Naam Zamin Par: range, sur, taal, ability to switch between notes with ease, what a masterpiece of a song, and look at the final alaap, there is no singer north, south, east or west who could have performed an alaap as high as that. Lata is there in the song as well and she had to match Rafi’s range in that song. I would like Ghantasala fans to point out one song similar to this one…”
So, first you claim Rafi’s superiority to the extent that there is no comparison between Ghantasala and Rafi. Would you like to correct that now?
Next, you say that Rafi could ALWAYS go deep into the essence of a classical song. That is far from the truth. In fact, one of the problems many purists have with Rafi is that he did NOT always do justice to the pakad of the raag.
You say that Rafi’s classical numbers stand out even amongst the ones sung by Manna. I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that Rafi sang semi-classical/classical numbers better than Manna? lol
I just read many of your posts and realized you keep harping on the song “Likhar Tera Naam Zameen Par”. Given the context, the song you chose was not a good one. Rafi has many better songs than this. I hope this is not used as an example in discussions as an example of Rafi’s singing calibre – he has done much better than this song on NUMEROUS occassions.
You say “…Also, I would like to point out one thing abt Kishore which I have read a lot of times on the net. Even if KK had training in classical music, he would not have reached the heights Rafi reached or be even half as talented as Rafi. At the end of the day it comes down to natural talent, and this is why you hardly see anyone including Kishore in discussions when it comes to overall music (north, south, east and west)…”
Do you still stand by this statement?
Your Post 665 in the True Voice Thread:
“…Kishore Kumar did NOT provide any sort of competition to Rafi saab at ALL, and the fact that he became popular does not take anything away from Rafi’s greatness…So what competition did he provide to Rafi ?. Becoming popular in the seventies due to various reasons which I will explain below and having hit songs does not justify competition. He was no where to be found previously, that he needed the backing of the Burmans as well as a new actor to become popular, so much for competition, and Rafi didn’t have any compeition nor did he need any because he was far above the rest. Compare the two in terms of singing, talent, range etc. and you will know why Kishore was definitely no compeititon to Rafi…So the term “competition” vis a vis Rafi and Kishore does not exist because he was no threat nor competition at all to Rafi, they were miles apart in talent…”
Sounds like something a Rafi-fanatic would say. Do you want to correct this statement?
Post 668:
“…Also, I would like to add that Rafi saab never suffered any set-back. He maintained his outstanding consistency for over three plus decades, something which no other male playback singer has been able to do, recording gem after gem of quality, soulful and haunting songs…”
This is far-fetched even for a fanatic of your calibre. Read Prabhanjan’s response on this issue.
Post 809:
“…Why should anyone accept Ghantasala as the best when everyone has the right to acept whoever they want as the best. It has already been proved without a doubt that Rafi saab was and is the greatest singer of all time. A few songs from Ghanstasala will not make a difference.
Ghantasala has not sung many of the similar types of songs that Rafi has sung and he hasn’t even attempted as many genres. Rafi had much more range than Ghantasala, its an open fact no one could touch Rafi when it came to not only singing in a high pitch, but from low to high as well. There is a wide difference when it comes to voice quality as well, whereas Ghanstasala had a one dimensional voice that could suit only selected genres, Rafi had the most perfect, golden, rich in tonal quality, and unique voice that could sing songs in any genre…”
How has it already been proven without a doubt that Rafi was and is the greatest singer of all time? This is exactly the type of exaggeration that Rafi-fanatics are known for.
I’ll copy/paste more gibberish from you later, provided you own up to what you said here :).
Rafi fan,(no Ji)
You missed my posts in “Divine Voice” thread.. I said and still say that Rafi is my most favourite in semi-classicals and I connect with his semi-classical renditions the best. Even my friends logically argued there. They are right in their views. But still, I maintain that whatever he was, I enjoy him to the fullest. Dont worry, life is too short to spend in such arguements. I only hope your colleagues listen to singers properly before commenting on them. Singers like Saigal are not born in every century.
Sardar Raghuveer Singh ji,
Sat sri akal, sir! Thanks for your compliments and some bare truths. Yes, north indians are a bit short sighted. And why only Ghantasala in Telugu? We know too little about Yesudas in Malyalam, Sudhir Phadke in Marathi, Avinash Vyas in Gujarati, Bhupen Hazarika in Asamese, SPB in Kannada or M S Vishwanathan in Tamil :).. But if honest music lovers are exposed to good music, they can never stop admiring.. Thanks for your post.
Balyrkar,
The less I say about you the better it is.. Brilliant posts.. Your posts are witty, humorous but knowledgable.. To hell with our idols, if we can maintain such good discussions here, music will win at the end of the day.
Myk,
hardly matters what you think or I think for that matter. Many classical musicians love Kishore. And they must have found something in Kishore(considering you dont buy our arguements) I have full faith in you when you say that it does not require minute listening to Kishore to understand the “classical nuances” he took in “non classical” songs.. You know the best :).. I hope you enjoyed all the Tagore songs of Kishore
Paramjeet,
I love your honesty and simplicity and the courage to call a spade a spade. Keep it up. Keep this forum neat and tidy..
Might be missing this forum for some time in next few days..
Cheers!
Paramjeet ji,
Bahut sundar message aapka. Particularly the following para of yours in the previous post is indeed LAUDABLE.
“Ek suggestion hai, jaise aap Rafi ke criticism nahi jhel sakte theek usi tarah kishore, saigal, ghantashala tatha anya gayakon ke fans bhi apne apne idols ke baare mein bekaar ki baatein nahi sun na pasand karte hai. Yeh sandesh apne mitron tak pahooncha dijiyega krupaya…
Aur yahan pe hum sabhi gayakon ko sanman deke hi baat kar rahe the. Agar apmaan kahi se shuru hua to woh bin bulaye kuchh Rafi fans se hi hua hai. ”
Let us leave apart these issues and continue with our discussions.
Paramjeet and Arghya ji,
Srivas ji had responded in divine voice with reference to kishore kumar’s talent in musical scores. It was a interesting post. Have you seen it ?
R V Murthy ji,
Vitthal ji is another music lover who enlightened us about ghantasala and I request you to please read the discussions between myself, Arghya, paramjeet, satyansh, srivas etc. with vitthal ji, in this thread and also in the divine voice thread wherein many interesting posts have been made.
Arghya,
I have read those arguments by others with great interest, and I am not of that view/opinion, as are my friends, who are also trained in Hindustani (and Carnatic) classical music. IMHO one does not have to have a minutest following of Kishore’s singing to realize that he was not cut out for that genre. To each his own.
Paramjeet, I am not sure what comments you are reading, or what sources you have, but I have never ever mixed religion with music anywhere. Have you mixed religion with music ?. Can you please clarify ?. I’d like it if you don’t ask me questions about topics I have not written about or come anywhere near.
Also in the future, I’d pefer it if you write in English, and if for any reason you are unable to, then I believe any interaction between us cannot go forward.
Satyansh, Vithal Sir, Arghya, Paramjeet, et. al.: Thanks for your support. It means a lot to me.
@Rafi fan: (regarding ji, sir, sahab, etc)
Its nice that you have put your opinion here. However, it has happened many times, both here and mohdrafi.com that sometimes we addressed somebody in singular, and later came to know that they were way too elder in age. It may not embrass you, but many of us do get embrassed after knowing that. Moreover, if you believe its “fake”, its harmless fake after all 🙂
In the same gesture, there is no way I can address Anil Cherian in singular. Of course, even he has ALWAYS reciprocrated kindly all the time not just towards me, but countless many others who are kind of junior than him. I will never ever forget the way he called a certain Parth on orkut as “Kidbro”. This has got nothing to do with Internet, its the way it should be with Indians and will never be forgotten. So even if I and Anil will argue endlessly over many things, the RESPECT will always be there for him.
Of course, many at mohdrafi.com are way too senior and elder for us to not address them with respect. Notwithstanding this respect we put our opinion clearly though 😛
Btw, its really ironical that in this INTERNET ERA, you call yourself a fan of Rafi, when strictly speaking you should be fan of “BYTES” as you may have not really heard Rafi either on LP records or cassettes 😛
Paramjeet saab,
Aapke message sundar dikhte hai.
Magar ek baat kehna chahata hoon aap se idhar, Rafi and kishore are the singers who stole hearts of many many people spanning generations, it is really sad to see people fighting here over both singers, really it is a sad development. It is really very difficult to get singers of that calibre for generations.
Aapkon ek baat mein badhayi dena chahata hoon ki, aapne aur arghya saab ne bade dil se southern music ke bare me acchi tara se baatchit ki hai, aap jaise sundar sangeet premiyon ko mera shubhkamnayein. Another man is satyansh saab, who too discusses greatly about singers, specially kishore kumar and saigal and whose posts have made really interesting to read.
Post 1712 – R V Murthy saab,
Ghantasala, What a range and voice. His modulations are superhuman. Classical songs which you have given the link – shiva shankari and rasika raja – he takes one to heavens that is all I can say. Never heard such great songs in films by any singer – true from my heart comes this comment.
Remaining songs are all lovely songs – the melodious duet is great, the solo romantic ragamayee rave – yes yes very very difficult to sing, but the singer sings quite easily.
The devotional dinakara subhakara- woh, I was literally carried away by the song and the taans he had executed easily.
Such magnificient singer as great as ghantasala is not known to punjabi people at all, even it is difficult to believe if such singer has ever existed.
SPB is famous among southern singers, as he has sung in hindi cinemas as well. By the way did ghantasala ji sing any hindi song murthy saab?
All the north people are mainly fans of rafi and kishore in majority and literally rafi and kishore are the only singers for the north people as they do not have much knowledge in southern music and its great singers. And it is not a exagerration to say that many people in the north will never believe that any singer can exist greater than rafi or kishore. But sure, ghantasala appears to be such a singer who can be called a “dhruva tara” in playback singing . It would be really interesting to know if he has sung any hindi song, and if so, the relevant links may please be shared here.
@R V Murthy Sir: I think I have not properly worded my post for Vithal sir. This post is not a reply, rather its a question. I am just expressing my views about PBS, and what I feel about the way certain singers are unnecessarily labeled as “limited” singers. Its this way.
Assume that all the eleven players in a team are all-rounders. In that case there will be not much thrill as even after 5 wickets that team can comfortably chase down 8 runs per over for over 20-30 overs. Similarly, if all the pieces of chess were queens, there would be monotonicity. However, a detailed follower of the chess game never underestimates even the importance of a SIMPLE pawn even in favor of the powerful queen. This is how more or less everything is about music too. I really apologise for being preachy.
Let us ask ourself why should PBS or Mukesh be able to sing variety of songs? Range? Etc?
Back to PBS. To the best of what I know, PBS was more successful in Kannada than in telugu. I had two HMV cassettes of his and there was enough variation in that songs of different genres were there, and each was sung perfectly :). Please give your opinion of this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oARTj-15baA
For me, the emotions, expressions, etc are complete in this song. As I said some posts back, see this version of SPB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ocfGhVCPbQ Though the spb version is not bad, it does not come close with PBS version. Thus, my overall opinion is that though all-rounders are good, we require specialized players too 🙂
If there are still doubts, I would like to clarify them.
paramjeet,
i’m perfectly tolerant of the criticism for rafi. so i don’t know what you mean when you say i can’t bear to hear the criticism of rafi that i may for others. there are songs of his that i’m not particularly fond of. a good example is yamma yamma yamma with asha. o i know that the scene required some cacophony for fun and rafi was acting it out (rather than singing) but i didn’t like it. big deal – you can’t always please everyone. i’m fully aware, that rafi, like any other singer, had his shortcomings. i have no problem accepting the truth or the reality. but he was still the greatest 🙂 i don’t have much criticism for the other singers. they were great. it’s just that rafi was the greatest 🙂
arghya,
i don’t think i was being edgy but i’ll take your word. rafi’s classical limitation is something that some kishore fans just love to beat to death and use it as their premise. they keep repeatng it ad nauseum and speaking as if this is some novel discovery that was not mentioned before but more importantly they speak of it without regard for its limited relevance (limited indeed, despite the fundamental nature of rudimentary classical training which rafi was qualified for).
RV Murthy,
i had heard all those songs you posted. yes, my post was subjective as a lot of music is. ghantasala has a very deep voice to the point that it overshadows, for most of the time, whatever sweetness or velvet smooth quality he has in his voice. i know this is subjective and hard to interpret (and bear for a big fan of any singer) so i don’t blame you. i think of kishore in “mere samne wali khidkhi mein”. his voice here is velvet smooth and sweet. that outstanding song posted by arghya, “ami chini go chini” – his voice & expressions are out of the world. these songs were from 1968 and 1964 respectively. than kishore, when he is older (to be fair to him), in the 80s, sings those songs again. by then, his voice isn’t as it was but more so it has become very deep. the deep voice just overshadows the original sweetness & velvet that a younger kishore kumar had. a 60s kishore kumar, like rafi, had a voice that was the perfect balance of a voice not too deep but not too light either. of course, ghantasala’s deep voice had its unique advantages (so he loses in some but wins in cases like this). i listen to those ghantasala songs and they just don’t have the same natural nuances and richness of voice that rafi’s fun songs have. purely my opinion. i’m happy with your music, i’m happy with mine. we’re both happy. ghantasala is versatile (as is rafi) but rafi is far superior in romantic and fun songs than ghantasala. ghantasala is superior when it comes to very technical songs (and his deep voice lets him enunciate).
suhana safar (1970)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbhK0uOtcGY
kishore’s ami chini go chini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyAUJ_RE_4Y
i love this yesudas, fun, romantic song from salil choudhury’s choti si baat. this is what i have in mind when i sing rafi’s praise for a velvet, sweet voice that is fun and with natural nuances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o6bD5EutOQ&feature=related
Balarykar,
I think Mr. Vitthal is correct in one way. P B Srinivas is good, but I have never seen PBS singing any songs in the extreme high pitches and octaves, which ghantasala comfortably takes.
See no offence – my point is the range of voice of PBS was such that it cannot go to a wider range. His voice was built like that. Naturally, high pitch/octave songs cannot be effectively rendered in such voice. Similarly, (i am talking of his telugu songs only – not kannada, as I have not heard them) the expression wise, for e.g. tragic or comedy or sentimental, the degree of expressions certainly are to a lesser degree. For e.g. if you take yeh nimishaaniki of ghantasala from lava kusa (an emotional rendering with beautiful expressions) or even SPB rendering Sankara song (with good roudra devotion expressions) PBS range was certainly limited (in my view based upon telugu songs of PBS) and I am yet to hear PBS taking such emotional expression ranges. I request you to kindly enlighten us with respect to any songs of above ranges in the voice of PBS and it will be interesting to hear. Yes, PBS is one of the sweet voices in his own way among the southern singers and is nice to hear.
In Hindi rafi could sing high pitches nicely and as you referred again same case with mukesh, and in my view mukesh range was similar to PBS, and I am yet to hear any mukesh songs where he had taken good high pitches as that of mohd. rafi.
Mukesh, PBS etc. are nice, but if you consider above factors, the limited range statement appears correct in my view.
Rafi fan sahab,
Jab aap khud maante hai ki Rafi classically professional nahi the aur unki gayaki ko ek film playback singer ke hisaab se hi lena chahiye to thoda aap ke colleagues jaise Anil, Myk, Rafibhakt ko bhi thoda yehi baat samjha dijiyega.
Aaap ka itna shor shoraba fuzool ka hai. Arghyaji kuchh aur bole aur aap kuchh alag track pe hi awaaz laga rahe hai.
Ek suggestion hai, jaise aap Rafi ke criticism nahi jhel sakte theek usi tarah kishore, saigal, ghantashala tatha anya gayakon ke fans bhi apne apne idols ke baare mein bekaar ki baatein nahi sun na pasand karte hai. Yeh sandesh apne mitron tak pahooncha dijiyega krupaya…
Aur yahan pe hum sabhi gayakon ko sanman deke hi baat kar rahe the. Agar apmaan kahi se shuru hua to woh bin bulaye kuchh Rafi fans se hi hua hai.
Dhani Ram sahab research mein lag gaye lagta hai saigal ke upar?
Myk pehle yeh to bataao aap ne kaise music ke saath religion mix kiya tha aur kyun?
@Vithal ji: Is it not so easy to say certain singers have limited range? I saw some comments on the limited range of the great P.B. Srinivas. For any music fan who has followed PBS will hardly ever comment on that limited range. Why should it really matter if PBS has limited range? I request one and all to listen to the PBS songs that I have posted here. If he takes us to heaven in the songs that he has sung, what is there really to complain or point out the “other” shortcomings? Yes, PBS is so great in the songs that he has sung that I never think of Ghantasaala or SPB rendering them. Thats really good enough. PBS was original and did a great justice to the songs given to him and that is what really matters.
Let me bring a few songs of PBS. The way he has rendered “Iluda baa thaayi illuda baa” is so extra-ordinary that when SPB sung the same on some show (good though it was), one could help but miss PBS. This limited range is really meaningless for most of the great singers. Ditto I can vouch for Mukesh 🙂
Rafi fan, – 1708
Largely subjective post, on one side you admit ghantasala’s superiority and versatality, and another side you put the rafi wagon again – completely not clear.
I wholly disagree with you when you say ghantasala’s voice was not velvet. I am sure you have not heard his melodious songs which have a velvet melodious touch. (I request you to please visit ghantasala.info and hear the songs pasted there in, you will get what I have stated) You are correct, his voice had great depth, consistently very clear and his songs are very hard to sing and to replicate. This is because, his mastery over technique of his style of singing was altogether different and attractive (which he developed on his own). You just try to sing one ghantasala song and you will see how difficult it will be to replicate.
You were mentioning about fun songs. Please hear this fun song (Which Mr. Satyansh was referring here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0uW8RGCkZc&feature=related
These melodious songs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLt8TQppsw0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs&feature=related
Classical filmy exemplaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvg3dZ2r7Xg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc&feature=related
Just try to sing this song, romantic solo how difficult it will be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th5Yh73c1Rc
Devotional (just see the command over music, modulation levels and comfort)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux49blEXTds&feature=related
Rafi fan ji, just hear the above and give your views. I admire your post and your regard for rafi as well.
thanks.
Rafi fan 1710.
Dont get so edgy over things :).. My comment was to Mr. anil who was trashing Kishore and hailing Rafi and bringing classical music in the context. Look at the response a SPB fan-Prabhanjan Balyrkar- has given to him. I could have also got edgy on Anil’s comments(like you got on mine), which were insulting in a mild way to the cadre of a singer of Kishore, but there lies a small difference again :)..
Myk,
A lot of elongated sessions on this was done by Surajit, Srivas, Lalithji, Satyansh etc. who are trained in Hindustani classical music, in this forum many times. You may please revisit them. I hold many of their opinions same. The reason I will not carry off this discussion here is beacuse it requires a minutest of following of Kishore Kumar singing which I doubt many of other singers’ fans have(except Satyansh).
“For Rafi, he definitely caught the melody of a classical song very well, but ornamentation wise”
of the 5000+ songs rafi sang, how many were classical? how many of his signature, great, watershed songs from the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 1980, are limited by this astute point of yours? i agree that a a weakness is a weakness (irrespective of quantity). but you do need to consider its impact which imo was very little in the songs that we love rafi. this still did not stop rafi from being in my opinion the most successful and versatile male singer of india. critics of rafi just love to beat to death and talk about rafi’s classical singing as if they think he was classical singer. he was a playback singer for films and his technical skills were not the limiting factor. rafi’s critics go so far as to laughably suggest he had even a slight struggle to sing “jaanu meri jaan”. laughable indeed! singers have preferenes in how they wish to sing a song. that’s not a weakness. anyway, rafi’s critics try to characterize rafi’s fans (fair enough, a lot of points are valid). rafi’s critics are just obsessed with distorted propoganda of overemphasing the impact of rafi’s limits to technical perfection in classical singing. i don’t say this out of spite but more out of amused observation & an attempt to play the game of characterizing people in these debates (which is ever popular).
Arghya,
Ofcourse views will differ from individual to individual. I agree that a vocalist is more qualified to comment on another vocalist, however at the same time, praise from others in the music field (or steeped in music) is also be considered great. My point about Pandit Ghosh and Rafi recently was in response to Kishorefan-ji’s comments in reference to my earlier comments about the same thing. I had mentioned Pandit’s comments about Rafi (in the past) vis a vis Rafi’s classical abilities.
You mentioned:
“Yes, of course, still Rafi fans hold an edge, as they have that authority(obtained by virtue of being Rafians) to trash all other Hindustani musicians who dont consider Rafi to be their favourites (including Joshi sahab)”
I know many fans of other singers who practice exactly what you mentioned, including many Kishore fans. I personally feel that this is wrong, and uncalled for, but one should not just label Rafi fans for the above when it is prevalent across various fan groups.
At the same time, in reference to your other point, IMHO I don’t find any features of classical singing (or a classical singer) in Kishore’s songs of that genre, that I do when Manna, Rafi, Ghantasala, Yesudas etc. sing classical songs. I don’t think any of the above singers had any question marks when it comes to classical songs and singing, whereas I feel Kishore was simply not cut out for that genre. You are ofcourse free to disagree with me, which I know you will 🙂
i have heard ghantasala’s bhaghavad gita. i enjoy rafi’s bhajans better. rafi’s voice is sweeter (subjective) and velvet smooth (not as subjective). ghantasala has a deep voice that is not nearly as velvet smooth as rafi’s (or yesudas’) but the deep voice has its advantage that his enunciations are especially highlighted. for the most part rafi sings very clearly but especially during his later years he was inconsistent with his clarity. ghantasala, due to his voice, was always consistently clear. so they have their advantages / disadvantages but i value rafi’s advantages more. it’s fair to say i have heard a limited number of ghantasala’s songs and that these things are a matter of opinion (so if someone feels otherwise and enjoys his music – great).
a lot of ghantasala’s songs scream out and indicate they are hard to sing. his fans like that. a lot of rafi’s fun songs don’t scream out that way and so it’s easy to take for granted what he’s doing. i’m now sounding like a kishore kumar fan trying to defend kishore’s “mein hoon jhumroo” vs rafi’s “o duniya ke rakhwale”. rafi was just very well rounded – he possessed some of the best traits of each of the six singers. no he was not a god. he had his flaws. he could be bested in certain areas. but overall, he was the best and without a doubt the most successful singer with the greatest impact in indian music (with the possible exception of lata mangeshkar). no matter how you dice it, that sets him apart.
i don’t care what famous people have to say when it comes to opinion. such debates are futile. i hate speculation ghantasala’s voice was better suited for the music in the south. even if he was born a hindi speaker, he would not have reached the success of rafi in hfm. the same holds for rafi if he were in the south industry. i watched one of ghantasala’s “fun songs”. there’s a masked man who dances around a girl near the train tracks. it was energetic and i admire ghantasala’s versatility. it just didn’t have the same fun as rafi in say, “thoda ruk jayi” from patanga. all opinions i know. ghantasala was best for his classical type songs. i commend his versatility but rafi was better throughout the wider spectrum like fun or romantic songs.
finally, don’t mind my comment but i’m not a big fan of this ji, sahab, sir, bhai, etc. that’s fake formality that sounds especially fake on the internet. people are so focused onto the ji, sahab, bhai, etc. they spend more time with that and fake etiquette & sentiments that they don’t get to the point.
Kishorefan-ji,
You have a valid point. I am not sure if Pandit-ji heard Ghantasala or not, however, that does not take away from Ghantasala’s greatness in any way. Ghantasala was excellent in semi-classical songs, he was one of the best in that genre, no doubt.
With regards to SPB and his comments, I have been witness to SPB mentioning about Rafi’s unmatched greatness (in general and vis a vis others) many a times, that I would not take those recent comments as the final word.
I don’t think any singer is pefect, however if there was ever one who was closest to perfection, then IMHO it is Rafi. Ofcourse we all have our own different views, tastes, likes, dislikes, etc.
Cheers
Next, Anil
Even SPB failed in rendering padyams. P B Sreenivas is next great singer, who could sing padyams nicely to certain extent. But as Srivas Ji puts it, PBS range of voice and expressions were limited. Apart from that, PBS is a sweet singer down south.
The Bhagavad Geetha of Ghantasala is a mixture of sanskrit slokas and padyam skills, hence it is incomparable. I have seen, anybody who hears it, has been carried away by the rendition.
In the south Jayachandran and Sounderrajan too were left back in time being overtaken by others. K J Yesudas could shine only in malayalam and I do not find any major contribution of KJY in telugu (similar to ghantasala’s contribution in malayalam which I have to agree). But, yes agreed, in the 80’s and 90’s SPB and KJY have established themselves as popular singers in the south, but my point again is that to my knowledge, (Perhaps I may stand corrected by Paramjeet or Arghya ji) in their respective fields, only three singers in india passed away when they were at their peak and unsurpassable at the time of their death and whose popularity continues to mesmerise generations till date even after decades of their passing away. (the same status is not enjoyed by any other singer till date in my view). This certainly counts for their greatness factor. (Rafi was not unsurpassable in 1980 unlike 60’s, as kishore was much popular, I have to agree even as a rafi fan)
The three singers are Ghantasala, Saigal and Kishore Kumar.
What do you say Satyansh ji ?
In continuation to my last posts’s last point to Myk:
Pandit Jasraj is a die hard Rafi fan and always maintain Rafi to be his favourite. Amongst other legendary Hindustani vocalists, their preferences for Cine Playbackers are as diversified as they are. Bhimsen Joshi and Ajay Chakraborty maintain Kishore Kumar as their most favourite singer.
Amongst musicians(not vocalists), as Myk said, G P Ghosh finds Rafi to be the best. Pt. Shivkumar Sharma is also inclined towards Rafi. Pt. Ronu Mukherjee is a declared Kishore Kumar fan. Pt. Ravi Shankar- the greatest musican India has produced in 20th Century, votes for Lata and (surprisingly) Mukesh!!!
So, you can see, even amongst legends, how diversified their choices of singers are. Yes, of course, still Rafi fans hold an edge, as they have that authority(obtained by virtue of being Rafians) to trash all other Hindustani musicians who dont consider Rafi to be their favourites (including Joshi sahab) 😀
Came to this forum after quite some time due to busy schedule of a project.
Paramjeet,
Thanks a lot for putting your points so beautifully here. Thanks a lot. I hope Dhani Ram would come out with something to the point pertaining to your questions rather than gabbling around for which Rafians are known for.
Balyrkar,
Thanks Prabhanjan again for putting your points so well. Your points to “She-manatics” as well as to that of Anil are very clarified dignified and takes nothing away from you being a true Rafi fan, which thanks to our developed rapport, I know so well. I dont know any die hard SPB fan apart from you, but amongst Rafi fans you are definitely one of the best ones who can raise voice about such shameful acts of his own colleagues. Cheers to you!
You were suppoes to share some songs of Ramakrishnaji with me.. Awaiting them eagerly(as I am free now, and both of us had our own individual blasts on 21st 🙂 )..
Satyansh,
You are really lucky that you had an amicable conversation with Dhani Ram earlier. I personally have never seen him anytime commenting anything other than dismissive abstract subjective remarks.
Rafi fanatics,
Problem arrives when at the cost of praising(or over-praising) Rafi, one tends to demean others. And in this forum, the comments of Rafibhakt were altogether redundant and started with an intention to create controversy when things were under nice and amicable condition. Then the post of Dhani at 1683 was absolutely ill informed and distasteful on Saigal. When he got under pressure, he started gabbling around again(as rightly pointed out by Paramjeet) and started deviating the topic with beauty contest stories( Rafians are definitely better story tellers than fans of any other singer 🙂 ).. Red herrings at their best! I hope the well knit points of Paramjeet are well answered.
Anil,
The whole point was on Rafi maniacs. And you told to leave that point aside and talked on eveything which were not the part of anguish of anyone! 🙂 A little more deep reading(and understanding the crux of a conversation) would be highly appreciated. For Rafi, he definitely caught the melody of a classical song very well, but ornamentation wise, his capabilities are very much questionable in relativeness. For Kishore, yes, he did not have any “on your face classical songs”, but all the features of classical singing(and more importantly, of a classical singer) are all there in Kishore’s songs(and singing). Detail discussion can always be carried out.
Myk,
Pandit Ajay Chakraborty is a die hard fan of Kishore Kumar. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh is a legendary Tabalchi and Pt. Chakraborty is a legendary vocalist. I wont say anything more on this any further. By the way,if it is absolutely necessary to give references (or, certifications) for Rafi with respect to classical singing, IMHO, it would be better to quote Pandit Jasraj than Ghosh Babu. A vocalist can certify another vocalist the best.
Satyansh ji,
Many thanks for your warm response. I am aware that many rafi fans know very well about ghantasala and his versatile range across various genres (including the rafi bhakt here) and the songs which you mentioned – sad and comedy genres of ghantasala have also been heard by those people. I know that. So, thanks again for your warm advise.
Kishore fan,
You have hit the mark. As a hinduthani musician, rafi did justice to semiclassical hindi film renditions, but for sure, You cannot certainly call them as greatest, when you discuss specially with reference to ghantasala’s classical and semiclassical skills, which are way ahead of rafi’s skills. See, the telugu industry is different altogether, encompassing in itself a stylish exemplary genres such as padyams (where ghantasala was master) and other genres , which for sure, where even rafi had literally failed.
I have repeated this point many times. Again I am putting it for rafians (specially)
One point rafi fans must note that almost all of the telugu songs of rafi are copy of his hindi songs tunes only (WHICH RAFI HAD ALREADY SUNG IN HINDI) and RAFI HAS NOT SUNG ANY EXEMPLARY ORIGINAL TELUGU COMPOSITION UNDER ANY OF THE GREATEST TELUGU MUSIC DIRECTORS, WHICH IF HE HAD ATTEMPTED WOULD HAVE SURELY FAILED DUE TO THE TECHNICALITIES AND SPECIALISATIONS INVOLVED THEREIN, that is why, personally, I never count rafi’s telugu songs for any comparison with any of the telugu counterparts. As my friend Balarykar says Sure, even P B sreenivas of the south sounds nice in telugu and kannada genres when compared to rafi’s renditions in these languages. So as singers, comparison between both can be made only from the view of their playback singing skills in their respective languages, (wherein both were great ) and if you take the “artistic, musician” factor as a whole, ghantasala easily surpasses rafi on all counts in that area. There is no doubt about this.
As Satyansh ji says, this comparison factor arose in mohd rafi.com only because, a big propoganda was going on such as that true voice, superhuman voice, universal voice etc. was possessed by rafi, whereas, as Balarykar ji says that many legends existed who were altogether specially specialised and were incomparable in their own fields, which when come for comparison factor, even the great rafi or others cannot compensate.
Balarykar – wonderful posts by you, please accept my congratulations on the beautiful analysis made by you – a balanced presentation.
Anil,
Yesudas is a great singer, I have heard his classical compositions as well his filmy classical compositions as well. But, sure, you know that yesudas has limitations in rendering padyams and sanskrit slokas as compared to ghantasala, and it is a known fact that yesudas too literally failed in these areas in telugu in early 70’s – Sri krishna satya film and Yesudas had to make an exit from telugu field, when he tried there at that time.
Ghantasala sang in malayalam films only in 50’s (and sang in kannada and tamil upto mid 60’s) and those songs are great hits (you are aware) and if posssible, I will try to share the link with you shortly for those songs.
to be contd…
Myk ji
Thanks for your post. Nothing against you as well. What I meant was when you were quoting the word “greatest exponent” (might be pandit ji’s view) it gives a indirect meaning towards other greats. I had asked you one question in this regard earlier which you did not reply ? I am again repeating that and this was in context with discussion on vitthal ji’s post. The question was, whether pandit ji had heard ghantasala or not before commenting on rafi and if pandit ji had heard ghantasala (as he alone is widely reckoned as a classical filmy great) what would have been his opinion ? If pandit ji had not heard ghantasala, then his view on rafi is completely incomplete and upon which one cannot conclude that rafi is greatest exponent. This was my question for which you had not replied. (Kindly do not interpret this as comparison again between legends)
By the way, you might have seen many recent posts, where in one post it is stated that even recently SPB had commented that rafi could not have sung a song as effectively as he did. What do you say on that ? Incidentally, in the same post it is also mentioned that SPB never says such statements about ghantasala (whom SPB knows quite more than rafi, as SPB was associated/learnt playback singing from him). This was confirmed by none other than SPB fans and Rafi fans themselves and the event was only in December, 2009.
What I wanted to convey is that even rafi fans have stated some limitations of rafi, where is the question of all rounder, greatest exponent etc. and Mr. Balarykar in his recent post quotes this point only and nothing else.
Balarykar/Prabhanjan,
shamenatic – lol. I also liked the use of “blah-ability”. You summarized the problem with Rafi-fanatics (Rafi-shamenatics) very well. They deride other singers/legends and attempt to create a bloated view of Rafi who they claim has a “superhuman range”, “universal” voice, “true” voice, etc. – there is a long list of ridiculous notions being propogated.
Dhaniram ji,
Respectfully, your statements/arguments in Post 1683 were not justified at all. It seemed as if you were engaging in Saigal-bashing, which I’ve never witnessed in my life. I realize you must have had an interesting few days since in the same timeframe around Feb 15 you were having a not-so-pleasant discussion viz-a-viz Pakistani singers on mohdrafi.com. You presented a perspective on Pakistani film music and I’d love to hear more from you on the same. Personally love Pakistani Punjabi music a lot too and agree with your view on HFM v/s PFM during the timeframe that you discussed. I believe we have engaged in courteous discussions earlier, so even though you have indicated that you are quitting, I welcome you again to talk to all on this forum on HFM. Paramjeet is a very knowledgeable person and I’m sure if you keep differences of opinion aside and continue a healthy debate there is something all of us can take from the exchange of information.
Paramjeet ji,
Bahut badhiya sawaal kiye aapne.
Kishorefan ji / Raj ji,
Why waste time addressing a person who brought religion into music on several occasions? Let him yawn – lol.
Rafibhakt,
While you do acknowledge Ghantasala’s superiority over Rafi in classical/semi-classical numbers, you should also listen to 2 more songs Vithal ji had shared – first a sad song and second a funny one. They are from completely different genres and Ghantasala’s rendition made them very enjoyable even for a person who doesn’t understand the language.
Vithal ji, If you know what songs I am talking about, please share the links again. The comedy one went something like “Sundari Neevanti Divya Swaroopam” and the sad one “Bommanu ..[something]si… Pranam ..[something]si…” – sorry I can’t remember the lyrics.
@Anil: First, of all the things, that post did not require a reply from you. Read the entire context for which it was written. It has been strictly written coz of the lameness of some fans. However, that you have addressed it, I will answer a few of your points.
“But I assume that you think Rafi is just one of the many great singers the HFM have seen (from Saigal to Kishore) with no distinct edge (over any of the other greats).”
A little rework on your words is what I did earlier. Many of the moronic fans have been projecting it this way: “There may be legends, but none of them have any edge whatsoever over Rafi”. If such is the attitude, its a dis-service to the other legends. Now that this is the attitude they want to display, I have no hesitation to SHOW where the other legends have really scored over Rafi. Its unfortunate, but I did that in the last post. I have no intention of putting one legend over other, but if this is the style they understand, they will certainly get it this way.
“Am I right with my assumption? If that’s the case, I suggest you spend some time with your guruji and probe him about Rafi; may be he can help you out.”
Please work on the assumptions of some Rafi fans. Firstly, I don’t need to sit with him at all. Professionally, “comparison” is what exactly my job is. Yes, yesterday only (21st Feb, 2010) I met him and have myself gifted him Rafi’s collection of 20 telugu songs. It was a great moment for me and the Bangalore team of SPB fans. And let me reveal a few things about SPB-Rafi fan-guru relationship. SPB has named his own studio after his mentor “S.P. Koodandapani”. Enter the studio and the largest photo on display is not of S.P. Koodandapani, but its of Rafi. And without sounding arrogant, let me also say that I have heard Rafi more than SPB himself. Musically I am a layman, but I do know more about Rafi to ask anything about Rafi to SPB or Rafi’s family. Its not correct to tell me to find about Rafi. As this is coming from you Anil, I am not offended.
“Your comments on Rafi-fanatics, we will take up later; but for now let me note down something about Yesu Das, a singer I’ve been listening to for over 30 years and who I absolutely adore. I suppose you wanted to prove (with the link that?s not opening for me) that there are songs that are technically (or let’s say classically) more complex than others to execute and that someone who can sing them well is the better singer. This theory is not entirely baseless but the danger in stretching it is that we will reach wrong conclusions more often that not.”
Its not that such singer is better overall singer. But there are genres where if your favorite singer is not better than others, then suddenly don’t change the criteria to “overall” and say that my fav is better than rest. Instead of admitting that yes, in this genre my fav singer is not best in this genre, why change the criteria itself. Overall, I am not proving anything. I am just exposing hypocrisy of certain people.
Btw, I don’t see you taking up the matter of shamenatics later either. There is very little, but not really much.
“For instance, let’s have to say that Kishore (with very little ‘on your face’ classical scores in his disography) or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se. ”
If you have not listened Kishore Kumars classical songs in the Rabindranath sangeeth, its not anybodys problem. Subjectively, you may say they are no great shakes, but there is hardly anything which they have not achieved. Btw, Kishore (and SPB) scored better music than Rafi. Like it or not, but face it.
I really don’t like the way you have written this though. Mark this in your records: “Not even thousand devotional songs of Rafi come anywhere closer to what SPB has done in Sivasthuthi.” SPB’s Sivasthuthi, Ghantsaala’s “Bhagvadgeetha” have been unmatched till date. Each year, for the past 20-25 years, at least 5 new versions of Sivasthuthi by various artists are released (sometimes including SPB himself) to match SPB’s first version. None have matched the same till date. Show me one Rafi work which comes any closer to this. So whats the point of saying Kishore and SPB are no great shakes is really beyond me.
Like you say “SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’)”, is it not also true Rafi (minus Baiju Bawra) has not great reportoire of classical songs? Why don’t we see this being admitted by Rafi fans then?
“Yesu Das, with his substantial classical base can (and does) sing heavy classical stuff as well as songs that requires fine-tuned musical grasp (acquired off course through training) better than Rafi or any other film singer in India. But does that make him better? Speaking of that Ravindra Jain song (which I suppose you linked in your post), the MD went to Rafi first (but not Kishore), right? Does that tell you something? Again, for a Shammi Kapoor-ish song in Tamil, the MDs go for SPB (and not Yesu Das); does that also tell you something?”
The same Ravindra Jain gave wholesale all semi- and classical songs in HINDI to Yesudas and others, and not one single song to Rafi himself. What does that say? Certainly, during that era Ravindra Jain found Rafi not fit for classical or semi classical songs. Even SPB does get semi-classical songs at 65, but Rafi was not getting at 45+. Draw the conclusions what ever way you want to. The thing is that all of this does not point to anything, but if you want to use them to see something the way you want, we can also point infinite ways which you would not like to see.
“As for your ‘legends’, no one is disputing they are not so and no sane Rafi lover faces off Rafi with them. The comparison usually arises from the other side.”
Please, please, and please one more and final time. See who raised the Saigal comparison.
“I don’t think I have ever seen any article (by Rafi fans) titled ?Rafi- the greatest classical singer? or ‘Rafi- a greater singer than Bhimsen Joshi’.”
I think you refuse to read who raised here the comparison and declared in no equal terms that Saigal was good only because he had no competition, and Rafi is leaps and bounds above Saigal and all blah, blah, blah. Normally, I don’t get into silly posts, not even SPB was literally blasted here. But that does not mean we will just “SHUT UP” if fans treat Saigal and other legends as dirt.
“‘Yesu Das can’t be bracketed with the legends’, true but then the legends can?t be bracketed with Yesu Das either.”
And thats exactly the stand we have generally. Why is it impossible for most of you to realise that the same is true about Rafi either.
“One famous classical singer (I can’t recall who) has already answered it for me. He said something like the classical musicians are great in their own way. But Yesu Das has been blessed with something they don’t have- a voice that attracts people? and this applies to Rafi as well.”
Does not this tell us that in certain genres, be it Yesudas or Rafi or anybody, are not the best.
“As for your post-69 HFM scenario, I really don?t want to answer you here, but will only ask you to look at what happened to the Malayalam film music industry around mid- ?80s, when the singer M G Sreekumar emerged and the superb singer Jayachandran got sidelined. However you can check with any musically literate Mallu and they will tell you where MG Sreekumar stands (as a singer) compared to Jayachandran.”
I take your words for guranteed as I do trust you. But the whole point is music, like sports, is not all conquerable by one single individual. At least you accept that Jayachandran (earlier Rafi) got sidelined. Whereas, many fans dispute this basic fact. Btw, I have listened Jayachandran’s “Chanda Chanda” song in kannada which was simply superb.
Also, just as you rightly say the 69+KK songs are not in the same league as 50-60’s Rafi song, its also true that this decline is nothing in comparison with decline of quality of the late 70’s Rafis return songs vis-a-vis the 69+’s KK songs quality. Its very convineint to say about the 69’s quality, and easy to hide the almost mediocre late 70’s Rafi songs.
“As for your comments about Rafi’s forrays into South film music, let me inform you that Kishore sang one Malayalam song but couldn’t displace Yesudas/ Jayachandran and SPB sang many songs in Malayalam but never became a force to reckon with. I don’t think I need to say anything more on this. ”
Yes, just like Kishore failed, SPB failed, its also true about Rafi. We are not arguing about all this.
To sum it up, Rafi became famous after singing songs of “Baiju Bawra”, and Rafi fans (of course some of them) want us to believe that Rafi is Tansen. That is, no other singer should be even allowed to ever sing, and all.
@All Kishore Fans: I am really sorry that I could not ask SPB yesterday about his experience with Kishore Kumar for that Sagar song. However, I have not forgotten either about my promise. I will get an answer from him at the earliest.
I am posting few of P.B. Srinivas kannada songs. I certainly love each of them, and I am sure you all will love. Of course, lets just enjoy him when we can.
PBS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApMpjb3WMWE
Nee bandu ninthaga
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOGBc4cN6l8
Adisu Nodu
Bangarada Manushya – Nagunagutha nalinali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUWoTKZl-Y
Gandhada Gudi – Naava aadava Kannada nudi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_DwjxuS1s
Binkada Singaari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGXCzIGGQg
@Dhani Ramji:
I won’t answer each of your points comprehensively. Lets see how things unfold.
* melody of voice
I just don’t understand why most Rafi fans just don’t admit that the melody of Rafi in the 70’s was really a poor shadow of his as compared with the Rafi of 50’s. So what does that tell us? Will you negate this attribute if a singer is melodious in one stage of his life if it deterioates in the some other stage of his life? Further will you honestly admit if I show a “LIST” of singers whose melody voice remained unchanged from their 20’s to 70’s. Lets not forget, Rafi was just in his 50’s when we saw the deterioration.
* grip over music
This is something which a singer can neither be credited nor be discredited, unless the singer also happens to be the composer of the song. Rafi having not been a composer, this measure does not just SUM up.
* modulation of voice
Ok. If quantitively a “LIST” of singers is provided who had more variety in modulation, you should accept the Rafi is indeed beaten in this criteria.
* pronunciation of words
Yes, Rafi must be credited here. In telugu and kannada he has indeed given 200% to get the pronounciation right. However, due to accent/dialect, some pronunciation were certainly wrong. But thats not to belittle Rafi. Lets face it. Rafi and Kishore both achieved very very less in foreign (or their own most difficult language) as comparison with a “few” other singers. So its a FACT that when it comes to “Overall” pronunciation, Rafi has been BEATEN. You may like it or not, but you can’t change the fact.
* communication of emotion
Yes, Rafi is as great at this criteria as anybody. Seriously, there are a dozen other singers who come closer (if not surpass) in this criteria.
* ability to sing songs of different types
If I put the 4 criterias above, its more or less the same. No need to go in more details. Moreover, this criteria is like a “Top-up”. The service network is more important than a certain “add-on” criteria. Also, this criteria is BIASED to specialised singers.
* acceptance by listeners of different generations etc.
I disagree with you here. Seriously, after a few generations no body may listen to gazals or classical hindustani/karnatic songs. Nevertheless, it won’t those legends any lesser. Further, pre-Saigal or around that time the recording facilities were so limited that we may never know their “TRUE VOICE”.
“So, I am quitting the discussion, as it is no longer possible to carry it on. ”
Its really getting difficult by the passing day to tolerate morons like “RafiBhakt”.
Finally, to sum it up all, different metrics will lead to different conclusions. But each (honest) metric will put all these legends in the same range of 9.5-10, with one leading some advantage to one legend over other. Whats the point in saying that Rafi is greatest according to this metric or that metric?
Penultimately, quantitavely, Rafi DOES trail behind at least two male singers in terms of achievements, awards and variety. Accept it or leave it, we all know the TRUTH.
P.S: I never thought I would NEVER be writing some of the above contents. Its ok, no hard feelings. and it was also NECESSARY.
@Paramjeet: Nice to know about your changed opinion about me 😀
@Raj: Henceforth look for Balarykar and not Prabhanjan 😛
@Arghya: “The biggest mistake a man can commit in his life is to comment on something without knowing or understanding it..” Hello! In which era are you living? You are committing the blasphemy of calling blunders as just mistakes. You will never ever be forgiven for this mistake, errrrr, blunder 😀
Balarykar & kishore fan
It is true that after 69 kishore had become popular, but still the same is no where near rafi’s popularity of 50’s and 60’s. Kishore’s rise was only a matter of change which was desired by people as kumar sanu achieved fame after kishore kumar, but both of them in any way are no where close to rafi in any way.
Next, there is no question of rafi overtaking ghantasala in telugu, in any way as rafi was not a telugu singer and it is obvious that in telugu, ghantasala was a monopoly always. I am talking of rafi only in hindi field and not about his telugu or kannada songs (which I have literally no knowledge more so about p b sreenivas, which you mentioned, hence i will not say anything about kannada songs)