An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
© Copyrighted to Yoodleeyoo.com All Rights Reserved.
MYK ji,
Why are you arguing ? Please come out (i hope what I mean it)
Kishorefan,
I thought you were atleast different from other Kishore fans, but it turns out you are one in the same. I do not know you, and you do not know me, therefore refrain from passing judgements. My post 844 was in general, there are so many aspects one has to take into consideration when analyzing a statement. It’s not that I cannot respond to your points (I have in the past), its just that you and others, sorry to say, cannot discuss anything in a civilized and knowledgeable manner, therefore there is no point in discussing anything here (as others such as Dhani Ram etc.) have also pointed out. I can go back and nitpick at all the trash you have written, but I will not, because I am not interested in a dicussion which such individuals. Also, in the future, please refrain from taking my name (as you so often do), unless I am involved in a discussion with you. It is clear that my posts bother you because you have no answer to them, and that you have no knowledge of music, and could not reply to my past posts which is why I don’t bother to have any discussions with you. I’d rather discuss with those who are sane. You don’t know me, therefore you cannot comment on what I know or don’t know. From your posts, you have shown you have little or no credibility whatsoever. I don’t really care for what you have to say, because it doesn’t matter. This argument is quite silly and old which is why I have not bothered to reply to your nonsense refrains and arguments.
As Dhani Ram mentioned:
“I had no intention of hitting back at the brain-deficits but they seem to have lost their balance.they specialize more in expletives than the aesthetics of music.that is why balarykar bemoans”.
You are quite obviously a part of the above group. Arghya even mentions that this thread is useless (something I have been mentioning long before). Vitthal has also decided to leave this forum. I wonder why ?. Kishore must be turning in his grave after listening to his fans spread such comments.
Sastry,
I am definitely not an escapist, the only ones who are ecapists are you and your friends here who could not respond to earlier posts, and now when the opportunity arises, you reverse the situation around. Kindly go back and read your post, and then tell me what you said and what you did not say. I can definitely reply to your points (which I have in the past, points from others which are similar to yours). Nothing you said is really new, and I don’t find it true.
Arghya, why is KK-RD irrelevant here ?. I am not dismissive of Kishore and his talent, I just don’t agree when he is put in the same category as Rafi. Why should he be compared to Rafi ?. There is no comparison at all, and one should know where to draw the line. We both may have different views, but we can both gain from a good discussion as well. I just mentioned that the “Likhar tera naam zamin par” song was good from a technical viewpoint (note changing, alaaps etc.), and that classical musicians I know are fond of this song too. Where did the Siva Sankari song come into comparison this time ?. Anyways, Ghantasala did excellent in that song, but I don’t find it to be the most difficult (as many claim here). I think there is special emoting there but not superhumaness (as you claim). I think you are dismissive of Rafi and his unmatched talent, as I have seen many of your posts elsewhere which give me such a feeling. If you are, that’s fine, and if you’re not, well then that’s also fine too.
Raj, Paramjeet, the atmosphere of this forum is not great for good discussion, because there is a lot of filth spread. Therefore I will refrain from discussing music, not because I cannot, but because it’s my choice not to interact in such an atmosphere which will lead both parties no where. I think Kishore fans are very insecure (in general), which is why the name of Rafi (and other singers) keeps coming up all the time, and such nonsense is spread in the name of music.
Like Vitthal and others, I am leaving this thread, as it is useless. My time is spent better elsewhere reading knowledgable posts and not the nonsense that goes on here.
@Dhani Ram:
There is a reason why I have not responded “exclusively” to your dumbness in post no 1683. Let Anil complete his reply. Seeing that post of yours I have lost all the RESPECT that I ever had for you. Saying things “in my opinion” can’t hide the complete lack of respect that you (and like-minded fans) people have for other icons and legends.
“that is why balarykar bemoans:
” Not even in a single post of yours here, you have criticized Dhaniram or Rafibhakt directly. Instead, you have been continously (sic) and unabatedly nit-picking my points posted against them and not against Rafi. Like two years back, even today, you can’t criticize the morons.””
I don’t “bemoan” about you or any of your post. Seriously, you do bring disgrace and disservice to Rafi himself that I don’t have to give a damn about being in the so-called “UAR” club.
To Balarykar (continued from my previous post)
————————————————————————————–
“There may be some Rafi fans who think Rafi is the best in every aspect of singing but then you will find more such fellas among fans of other singers. Your strong sentences like ‘Rafi fans think no other singer should be allowed to sing’ can draw a lot of applause from the UAR crowd but it is just not true with the majority of Rafi fans.”
See, we are looking things differently. The people who have directly applaused are more of music fans than X or Y artist.
From my survey of online forums “more such fellas” are Rafi fans. This has nothing to do with Rafi. Its just that there may be more Rafi fans, or it may be even my own wrong sample/inference.
————————————————————————————–
Let me ask you what do you think of the Ghantasala fans who consider their idol to be superior to everyone else who ever sang in India or the Kishore fans who invents all sorts of theories to prove Kishore>/= Rafi
————————————————————————————–
“I have recently seen a video where Anand (of Anand-Milind duo) says something like he switches his radio off immediately after listening to a Rafi sahab song since he doesn’t want to listen to anyone else after listening to Rafi sahab. Will you include this MD under the category of Rafi fans you labelled under a fancy title.”
I just appreciate Anand idolizing Rafi. I don’t see what wrong he is doing there. Did he say that if any artists song is playing on the radio, he turns it off as its not Rafi? Do you seriously and religiously accept what he said? You see, he would definitely listen his own composed songs on radio which were never rendered by Rafi
Further I can tell you for sure if the RJ (radio jockey and not Ravindra Jain, lol) announced earlier “Chand mera dil chandni ho tum” will be followed by “Aake teri bahon mein”, he won’t turn the radio off. And please don’t label Anand in the UAR group then
————————————————————————————–
Genuinely hilarious but You don’t seem to have fully caught what I wanted to convey (my fault surely, I didn’t express it well) though you’ve reached the conclusion, more or less, I wanted you to.
See, when I mentioned this incident, I didn’t want to show that many MDs like Rafi sahab and therefore Rafi is great. What I wanted to say is that people, even well established ones, do have their favorites, many of them are very passionate about them and many of them make no secret of it. So, when someone says his favorite is untouchable or greater than someone who’s considered an icon, there is no need to jump up and cry out “balsphemy’, stone him”. You don’t have to religiously accept what Anand said and that’s what I myself wanted to say. Similarly you don’t have to make much hue and cry over what two fans of Rafi sahab said about their idol. If you are still in that mood you might have to go to your Guruji’s house and protest over his remarks like ‘none can sing “kal raat zindagi se mulaqat….” the way Rafisahab did’ or ‘Rafisahab was so good with “ehsaan tera hoga….” that Lataji couldn’t match up’. You can also not blame some Rafians for giving you a piece of their mind for declaring that “Rafi’s 1000 bhajans wouldn’t even approach a single ‘sivasthuthy’ of SPB”.
May be more later….
MYK
Deemag kharab ho gaya hai kya ? Kindly get your mind checked by a doctor. When you call ghantasala not a superior to rafi, it itself speaks the state of your mind and perhaps your ears are also not working properly to hear music legends. How dare you project rafi and his talents before a classical wizard like ghantasala ? Have you gone out of your mind ? You are comparing a degree qualified man with a professionally qualified person. Is there any sense in your foolish points ? Besharam kahi ke. Shameless attitude you have displayed. If you do not know how to reply to posts in a positive way, simply get out from here and pour all your nonsense stuff in mohdrafi.com. Simply get out from here.
To Balarykar (continued from my post# 1782)
————————————————————————————-
“I asked you why Ravindra Jain went to Rafi for the technically difficult song and not Kishore and you responded that Ravindra Jain and other MDs didn’t give Rafi any semi-classical songs in the ’70s.”
You want to say that as a whole lets interpret RJ giving technically difficult songs to Rafi over KK as Rafi having edge over KK in this genre. This is the scenario when KJY was not on the scene. However, that very same RJ choosing KJY over Rafi in that very same genre can’t be interpreted as Rafi being less good than KJY. Why again different standard? The gist of my giving this example was that “Don’t interpret Rafi as less better than KJY in a genre coz of numbers, and similarly don’t overproject as KK as an incapable singer of classical songs”. Now who got the wrong meaning is for everybody to see.
————————————————————————————–
I see I haven’t made myself clear. I wasn’t speaking about any particular period, I was speaking about THAT SONG WHICH I THOUGHT YOU LINKED and I think I have to do a bit of explanation. For that song, RJ went to Rafi first and Rafi’s response was something like “I can’t sing this one in my life time”. My question was why RJ didn’t consider the Kishore (or any other popular HFM singer) option.
RJ preferred KJY over Rafi not because Rafi couldn’t sing semi-classicals ‘after 45’, infact Rafi was singing his old semi-classical gems in his live shows as well as he ever did. There are many reasons- for one RJ was very fond of KJY, for another he wasn’t doing too many big banner films. It was just that, despite his huge admiration for Rafi, RJ couldn’t work with Rafi much (just as he wasn’t able to work with Lataji much during ’70s/ early ’80s).
Hope to continue later…
Dear friends and music lovers,
Thanks for your support and views. I think there is no purpose in involving in unnecessary arguments over established facts. No amount of discussion(s) can change such facts.
I am withdrawing from further arguments and debates in this forum.
Thanks again to all my friends for the encouraging views and support, & with a SPECIAL MENTION to the Moderator and Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji and Satyansh ji, with whom discussions have been very fruitful and encouraging.
Happy moments to all. Bye.
MR. MYK – BLATANT LIES YOU ARE SPEAKING
Your post 1779 to Mr. Shukla –
I never claimed the LM song to be as difficult as Siva Sankari,
THEN WHAT IS THIS ?
Post 844 of MYK in true voice thread
“The Siva Sankari song is not as difficult as the song from Laila Majnu, Rafi has sang many classical songs with ease similar to the one from that film, and also many classical songs that are much tougher”.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST JOKE EVER SEEN. AN OPEN CHALLENGE : KINDLY SHOW AT LEAST ONE CLASSICAL SONG OF RAFI EVEN TO THE EXTENT OF 50% OF SIVA SANKARI – DO NOT RUN AWAY WITHOUT REPLYING OR ESCAPE AS YOU HAD NOT REPLIED TO ANY OF THE POSTS/COMMENTS OF MR. SHUKLA, MR. SANDEEP, MR. PARAMJEET ETC. AS IT IS CLEAR YOU ARE CORNERED AND EXPOSED AND MAKING SILLY COMMENTS TO COVER SUCH ESCAPISM. I THINK YOU HAVE GONE OUT OF YOUR MIND BY SEEING THE POSTS OF GHANTASALA FANS WHO HAVE PRESENTED SUCH EVIDENCES THAT MADE YOU RUN OUT OF YOUR MIND AND MAKE SUCH SILLY/ESCAPISM POSTS, WITHOUT PROPERLY REPLYING. YOU HAVE NEVER REPLIED TO ANY OF SUCH POSTS AND AGAIN IT IS THE SAME REPETITION, AND IT IS CLEAR OF YOUR ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MUSIC. NOW YOU HAVE ALSO STARTED SPEAKING LIES. THAT’S NICE TO LEARN.
BY THE WAY YOUR OWN STATEMENT, NO AMOUNT OF DISCUSSION CAN PROVE RAFI TO BE IN ANY WAY SUPERIOR TO GHANTASALA. YOU MAY MAKE A RECORD OF THIS. AND YOU CANNOT PRESENT ANY EVIDENCES IN SUPPORT OF RAFI (AS PRESENTED BY GHANTASALA FANS) TO PROVE THIS AS IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO.
Paramjeet ji and Arghya ji
Again Saigal ji, FATHER OF HFM, had been talked in a bad taste by Mr. Dhaniram, I think these MYK and others have become restless in their minds, as it is clear they are not able to put any arguments or replies to any posts, rather only landing in criticising all others by calling rafi greatest, rafi greatest, (it will be fantastic to know whether these evergreen …ls know what they mean by the term “greatest”) I strictly advise these rafi fans to please stop writing any further nonsense and make exit in a dignified way, if you are not able to make reasonable arguments.
RAFI SAHAB MUST BE CRYING SEEING THIS OUT OF MIND MYK AND OTHER SIMILAR RAFI FANS.
Anil, post 1781
Bro..You have a serious problem of nitpicking things without getting into the head or tail of anything. Dont nitpick points and read again the entire post of mine and try to assimillate what I meant there (if you can) and to what context I said so. Also spend time to think why I said “Barbaad e mohabbat” and “Kabhi khud pe” both as better songs than ” Likhkar tera naam zameen par”.. And since you conveniently and abruptly pick some lines to create debate, FYKI, the first two songs are not sung by Kishore Kumar 🙂
Friends, I wont be writing anything any further in this useless thread. If anyone wants to carry further any discussion, may kindly take it out of this forum at arghya.kishoreda@gmail.com. Otherwise, “Divine voice” thread is also available as long as we dont have any other newer articles.
friends,
Ek vishleshan main aap ke saamne rakhta hoon Anil namak ek Rafi premi ke upar. Ghatnayein kuchh is tarah ke hote hai aur anilji kuchh is tarah se karte hai-
Ghatna- koi rafi bhakt yahan pe aake kishore ko(ya fir kisi anya gayak ko) ulta pulta bol deta hai(yaad rakhiye yeh kishore forum hai). Example: divine thread pe Kapil namak ek vyakti ya is thread par Rafibhakt aur Dhaniram naam ke vyakti.
Anilji- dekhte hai magar chup rehte hai. (maza aata hoga unko)
Ghatna- rafi bhakton ki aesi harqat dekhke anya fans gussa hokar unhe koste hai. Example: divine thread pe Lalit Ganpathy Kapil ko ya yahan pe Blarykar Rafibhakt ko.
Anilji- dekhte hai aur prarikriya ke chune hue kuchh points ko lekar yeh sabid karne kamar kaske lag jaate hai ke asal mein Rafi fans to nirapradh hai, asli gunahgaar to anya gayakon ke bhakt hai jo UAR banakar ladte hai.
Anilji, arghyaji mein sehmat hoon poori tarah se is baare mein ki aap ko sachchai maan ne ki taqat nahi hai.
Main is forum ke moderator ko bolna chahunga ke yeh site kishoreda ke prati pyar pe banaya gaya hai kya? Yadi haan, to hum kyun aese logon ko yahan pe aane dete hai jab ki yeh khud apne forum mein koi bhi neutral discussion hone nahi dete? (poochhiye satyansh, arghya, balyrkar, khan sahab, vitthalji, kishorefan, raj, shukla de- kisiko bhi). Main abhi isi waqt aese Rafi fans ke ghatiya politics ke upar apna prativaad chhodta hoon. jo log mujhe samarthan karte hai weh aesi ghatiya logon ko yahan se nikaalke is site ki musicality ko barkaraar rakhe.. Aur yeh Myk jaise insecured insaan, jo sangeet mein Lahore wali baat lata hai, kishore ki awaaz ko fati hui tyre bolta hai, saigal aur ghantashala jaise gayakon ko zaleel karta hai , use kadapi yahan pe aane na diya jaye. Aese log sangeet ke naam pe dhabba hai, sangeet mein dharm aur mazhab ko biasedness dete hai, inko sangeet se nahi apne apne mazhab wale logon ko badhawah dena hai..
Anil,
Mujhe bhi koi shaukh nahi hai aap se baat karne ki.. Myk ke kiye hue ghatiya comments ko aap defend kar rahe ho(sirf isliye ki woh rafi fan hai), is se aap ki bhi niyat kaisi hai pata chal jata hai.. Kya Binu Nair mohdrafi.com ka owner ya moderator hai? Ya Haldar? To woh log kyun non-rafi fans ko unke site se nikalne ke liye bolte hai? Ab wohi teer aap logon pe aake lagi to aap to chirchiraane lage?
Dhani Ram,
Duniya mein sabse bada brain deficit agar kisiko dekha hai to woh tum ho.. HMV ke CD kharidne ke jagah kuchh music bhi seekh lete.. Saigal ne kaunse gaane pe udara saptak gandharv se tara saptak gandharv tak chhoen the woh tumne bataya nahi aur bolte ho ‘saigal had a poor range’. Tumne Saigal ke pronounciation pe baat ki, maine kaha kya aap sure hai Rafi ya anya kisine aesi galti nahi ki? Tumne bataya nahi. Tumne kaha Saigal ki modulation nahi hai to maine kaha ‘aapko aesa kyun lagta hai, udaharan do’ to tumne kuchh bataya nahi abhi tak. Tumne kaha Saigal ko competition nahi thi jispe satyansh aur arghyaji ne unke samakaleen gayakon ki gayaki pe tumko poochha, tumne uska bhi jawab nahi diya, matlab tumne k c dey, pankaj mallick ko theek se suna hi nahi. Tumne kaha Saigal kuchh khaas gayak nahi the to bhi maine tumse poochha aesa kyun lagta hai aap ko.. Kuchh vishleshan kiye nahi aur aaj aake CD aur cassettes ke list de rahe ho.. Aap Haldar babu to nahi ho na? Weh bhi aese hi karte the 🙂
Myk,
Hum insecured nahi hai. Agar hote to hamare hi forum mein rafi sahab ki taarif nahi karte hum sab. Main, satyansh, vitthal, arghya, balrykar sabhi.. aur humne aap ke rafi forum bhi jana bandh kar diye hai. Insecured to aap log ho-aap, dhani ram jaise log- jo bin bulaye mehmaan ki tarah yahan pe aa jate hai, rafi chhodke baaki gayakon ko ulta pulta bolte hai aur chale jaate hai. Kuchh log to itne insecured hai ke apna asli naam bhi nahi lete, bhakt, fan etc lagake chale aate hai.. Aap ka bhi asli naam humein pata nahi. Insecured kaun hua phir?
Mr. MYK
You are a pure escapist. You cannot reply to my points, because you know they are true and you cannot deny any of them and any amount of admission for those TRUE facts will act against your ego for rafi. So keep the same to yourself. Kindly do not try to state something such as I will not reply, or it is a repetition (you had also not earlier replied to any of such queries of Mr. Vitthal as well, can you show replies for such posts – No), Because you cannot reply, this everybody knows and is a sheer escapism. You may think anything about me, it hardly matters, but your views if you think are correct, then you are certainly wrong. You may think the same about me, but before thinking I request you to make a point that my points are not my points but points of persons steeped in music, and it is for you to decide what weight they carry ? Any criticism on my points are only criticism of points of those persons steeped in music itself (including rafi who had praised ghantasala many times but not vice versa at any point of time )
I never called you a fool and I never will. It is you who have used such language against a individual, that shows your insecure feeling as a rafi fan.
To Arghya (ref post#1780)
First off, this particular post is not your first one addressed at me. We have had many debates in the past.
Next, you could very well have told to my face what you think about me/my posts rather than taking the backhanded (Prabhanjan) route.
Third point, please have alook at my post# 1782, may be you’d realise what I was trying to convey about Kishore and SPB being no great shakes.
Fourth point, I am not here for respect, accolades and the stuff. If you care to notice, I post here only when Rafi and his fans have been targeted for attacks of a special kind, though I have posted something occassionally when something interesting (to me) came up for debate.
Fifth point, I have absolutely no fear in calling a spade a spade, too bad you don’t know me personally. This applies to my fascination for Rafi sahab too; if in doubt you can visit the Rafi sahab’s most frequented orkut community (where you are a member to the best of my knowledge) and do a bit of search about me.
Finally, I respect and admire you for many things (your musical knowledge being one of them). But can’t help pointing out that typical ‘holier than thou’ attitude (of the so-called ‘true music’ fans). I can explain it to you if you want; may not be here but privately.
Mr. MYK,
You have not responded to my query ? I had asked kishore had received numerous praise by persons steeped in music (pancham da), what you have to say on that ?
In your own words, praise by persons steeped in music means a lot.
As I understand Binu Nair had criticised Anil Biswas, whereas in the latest post of Mr. Vitthal in divine voice col. Anil Biswas was praised by ghantasala, again praise from a person steeped in music, – what do you say on that ?
Saigal is greatly revered by rafi and others, again praises from persons steeped in music like rafi, would you agree for this ?
Manna dey is praised by rafi, a person steeped in music ? Manna – what do you say about him then ?
anilji
I had no intention of hitting back at the brain-deficits but they seem to have lost their balance.they specialize more in expletives than the aesthetics of music.that is why balarykar bemoans:
” Not even in a single post of yours here, you have criticized Dhaniram or Rafibhakt directly. Instead, you have been continously (sic) and unabatedly nit-picking my points posted against them and not against Rafi. Like two years back, even today, you can’t criticize the morons.”
My post 1683 has become a nightmare for them.I had issued a clarification which I thought would quench their fury.Obviously it hasn’t.They are still on fire.So let me revisit the post and restate what I said in simpler words so that the dimwits can understand what I said.
1 My first point was with regard to the quality of Sehgal’s voice and his style of singing.Sehgal sings in a singsong manner that doesn’t appeal to the listeners in general.
2 Therefore he has been consigned to oblivion.Much lip service is paid to him and nothing more .Leaving aside a couple of his songs like babul mora nehar chooto jaaye or kya maine kiya hai etc which old timers like me still cherish his songs have been altogether forgotten.
3.I wrote that he has been made into a fetish.Yes,lip service is paid to him but hardly anybody likes to listen to him.When Radio World Space was in operation,it had a channel called Farishta,devoted to songs from 1940s to 1970s.Sehgal’s songs were never broadcast there.I made request to them to do it but my request was not heeded.There was a two hour weekly programme of listeners’ choice.Never was a Sehgal song requested.The radio had a twenty four hour channel devoted to classical music.Of course, in pure classical sections,no film singer was ever played but there was an hour-long weekly programme which broadcast film songs.Never was Sehgal played.Rafi was there in every broadcast.
4.There was a set of cassettes containing classical film songs brought out by HMV in 1980s.It contained none by Sehgal.Rafi had a good representation.(No Kishore also)
5.Only last month I bought a recently made CD containing 48 classical songs.There is nothing in it by Sehgal.It is dominated by Rafi,Manna De and Lata.(Kishore is absent).
6.My other point was that Rafi has sung songs of such a wide ranging variety that Sehgal couldn’t have even dreamed of it.And I said and say again that Sehgal couldn’t have sung any of Rafi’s songs with any degree of success.I have hundreds of such songs in mind.There is a duet with Lata:Sun meiri saanwari apna bana ke bhool na jaana.There is:main yeh soch kar us ke dar se utha tha ki voh rok le gi mana le gi mujh ko.There is :meire mahboob tujhe meiri mohabbat ki kasam.There is: Raha gardishon mein har dum.How many should I cite? Which ones would have Sehgal even attempted? While Rafi wouldn’t have done very badly attempting Sehgal.
7.Ironically,Sehgal was the fastest to be forgotten.In early fifties itself he was dropped.
Now wisdom lies in looking at reality as it is.Nincompoops will again go into a spin at what I have written and will spew out their weird riddles and rigmarole.
Balarykar,
Thank you for the honest post. It deserves an honest response and here it is.
I was rather taken aback by your original post, coming as it was, from you. I still maintain it was in bad taste. If you wanted to put your points across to the hard-core Rafi fans, there were better ways than highlighting (what you thought) were Rafi’s short comings. You appeared to be very rude to Rafi (more than to Rafi fans), I suggest you read it once more and may be you would realise it. And all the negative points which you raised about Rafi are not the ones that may be called proven truths.
Personally, I didn’t find the posts you mentioned disgusting or stinking. The two posters didn’t try to pose for authorities in music and they were not abusive or disrespectful. They said Rafi, for them, is a greater singer than Saigal. One of them also said, Rafi should be called the father of Hindi playback singing and not Saigal. How can these posts be any more disgusting than certain posts by people who called themselves as trained musicians calling Rafi a ‘crooner without dimension’ and trying their best to show that Rafi is pretty ordinary (and showy) in ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’ and a lot of assorted stuff. You can see it for yourself in this thread itself, if you want. None of the Rafi fans ‘blasted’ or ‘ripped apart’ any singer here more than these musicians (?) did with Rafi. And none of the so-called ‘true music lovers’ had anything to post in protest (though I have to admire Arghya especially for not joining with them in all their aguments). If you don’t find it an example of ‘double-standards’, then I have nothing more to say on this. You think SPB is a far greater devotional (and semi-classical) singer than Rafi. Dhaniramji and Rafibhaktji think Rafi is greater in many aspects of singing than Saigal. Why do you want to make a big fuss about their stance only? What you think is the truth and what Rafi fans think is ‘stinking’?
No, I didn’t trash either Kishore or SPB. You are actually quoting out of context. I was trying to show the lacuna in your line of argument. You were trying to show that since Rafi couldn’t do a difficult song which Yesu Das sang ultimately, Rafi isn’t such a great singer. I was simply extending that logic to the case of Kishore and SPB. If you go through my post, you will find that I specifically mentioned that if one applies this logic, one would reach ‘wrong’ conclusions. That Kishore and SPB are no great shakes as singers is the ‘wrong conclusion’. I hope you got it. I also hope Arghya also got it. For your information, I never tried to belittle Kishore, SPB or any singers here. I have posted my opinions about Kishore’s voice, his style, his vocal range et al, but all those comments were prefixed by ‘in my opinion’, ‘to my ears’ etc. I’m no authority on music and I have always made it clear in my posts, especially when remarking something about Kishore and his singing here in this site.
The Jayachandran incident requires some narration, I shall do it some other time.
The RJ-Rafi-KK and Rafi-SPB-KJY scenarios were meant (only) to show Rafi’s all-round strength. I didn’t try to project that Rafi is greater than Kishore/ SPB because of his ability to do raga-based songs better or Rafi is greater than KJY because he could do fast/light numbers better. I just wanted to say Rafi could do it all and that was an edge he enjoyed. And I wouldn’t dare utter a word against KJY (a singer I adore) even when pitted against Rafi and I am extremely grateful to RJ for introducing KJY’s enormous talent to HFM.
Hope to continue later in the day
Paramjeet,
I don’t suppose you happen to be the owner/ moderator of this site. There are many better ways to release your anger than asking people out of web sites not owned by yourself. Now I have realised (from your posts to Myk and myself) what kind of fellow you are. Please refrain from addressing your posts to me.
Arghya,
Do you seriously think it is the high notes, low notes, alaaps, mukhris et al that makes songs/singing (especially play back stuff) great? I don’t have to tell you where this argument lead into.
Myk 1766
1. Discussing RD-KK is irrelevant over here.
2. I don’t discuss anything about Kishoreji and his singing with someone who is utterly dismissive about him. Since you are very dismissive about Kishore, his talent and his singing (as clearly shown from your past posts), I think there is no need to discuss Kishore with you any further. I don’t have any problem with you being dismissive over Kishore, but after that no fruitful discussion can take place as you would never be able to appreciate the points I am drawing to. It is good to be critical as we can carry off a discussion with him, even I am critical to many singers including Kishore, but not dismissive. That is why perhaps fans of Manna De, Ghantashala, SPB all find me a worthy person to discuss music with.
3. Regarding “Likhkar tera naam zameen par” , notes hitting was one of the many points which I had asked you. I asked you about special emoting or superhuman ness in that song as well, which makes you to pit that song against Siva Sankari. Because I can show you half a dozen technical criticality of Siva Sankari and I hope the same reciprocation from you regarding “Likhkar tera naam zameen par” except subjective declarations.
Anil,
My first direct post to you. I have been observing you from a long time and I find you overlook all the misdoings of your colleagues and nitpick comments to argue lamely. Even in Sandip Nadkarni episode, in spite of you knowing pretty well that the person is fake(confirmed to me by one of our common acquaintances who thinks you of very high regard) what you still did in Rafi forum was again overlooking that cheap stunt and create some lame excuses again for such stunts calling me trying to act innocent. Are you afraid to call a spade a spade?
Prabhanjan,
Forget it yaar. There is no point arguing with a person who nitpicks things, overlooks his colleagues’ misdoings, comes to kishore forum and trashes kishore and still wants respect and respectability here as if in Rafi forum they give garlands to a person who goes there and says “Rafi is no great shakes as a singer”…:)
Shukla,
If you find my comments funny, I am happy for you. I also find your comments even more funnier, so more power to the both of us. I never claimed the LM song to be as difficult as Siva Sankari, but regardless, any amount of discussion will not prove Ghantasala was a superior singer to Rafi. Thanks for your comments. I hope you admire more of my presentations in the future, if we do happen to come across eachother again, and hope you see the light. Will not respond to the rest of your post as it is the same repetition over again.
Paramjeet, Sastry, Sandeep, I am not going to bother responding to your comments, because they are unwarranted and completely off the mark. You do not understand th crux of my posts, and then accuse me of writing things I never mentioned, which shows the credibility of all of you. The points you have brought up are again a repetiton of the same discussion that has been going on for ages now. The level of discussion is at an all-time low here, with many unwanted remarks (as expected from those who can’t discuss in a civilized manner), and beaten to death. Sastry, you do not know me, so I suggest you refrain from posting comments about my musical knowledge (which you will never attain), or post comments on someone else’s behalf. It would serve you as a lesson for the future. Sastry, the only fool who has made foolish comments here is you. If you don’t agree with what I say, all the more power to you, but your credibility is questionable from your posts. Paramjeet, if you would like to discuss anything at all, I suggest you stop bringing comments from anywhere, and attaching them to certain individuals for your convenience. Also, to all three, stop assuming what my views are or anything related (I dont do the same for you), you do not know me, and if I wish to portray something, I will. I am amused that everytime I write something on this forum, many here become insecure.
Dhani Ram, great post, just goes to show how insecure and jealous some fans of other singers are.
Dhani RAM 1767
LAMBI LAMBI BAATEIN KARNE SE PEHLE MERE KIYE HUE UN SAWALON KA JAWAAB DO.. AUR HUMNE AAPKO YAHAN PE NEUTA DEKE NAHI BULAYE THE, AAP HI AA GAYE THE BIN BULAYE MEHMAAN KI TARAH SAIGAL KI BURAAI KARNE. KISHORE FORUM MEIN AAKE, SAIGAL KI BURAAI KARKE AAP DEMAND KARTE HO RAFIANS KO HUM SIR PE CHARHAKE RAKHE?
PARAMJEET.
Can somebody please check if my previous post is the longest in the history of this thread? LOL
Balarykar,
“I understand that you are not going to reply/clarify anymore on the ?Rafi?s fallibility? theory but you expect a reply from me; Am I getting it correct this time?”
I was not expecting a reply from you, and another truth is that the moderators here are so fast that soon the next generation may discuss your and my posts as we are discussing Rafi and other things here 😀
I will try this time to clarify all the things to the best of my ability. If there are shortcomings, please point out them and I WILL clarify them too.
For one thing I don’t believe Rafi had fallibility. However, if and when certain Rafi fans point out the so-called fallibility, short-comings, etc of other singers, and IF similar things are true about Rafi, I will certainly point out them without any hesitation. This is not just for Rafi fans, but for each and every artists fans.
“You want me to see the big picture but what is it? All I see is a list of the so called short-comings of Rafi- that his voice wasn’t any good after the 50s, that he was finished by 1969, that he can’t sing a bhajan anywhere close to the calibre displayed by SPB in a particular song, that he couldn’t sing a semi-classical song after he crossed 45, that he can’t sing a technically difficult song which Yesu Das sang, that he couldn’t displace the top singers of SFM despite singing in South Indian languages etc. If you claim that your attack was aimed at Rafi-fans and not at Rafi himself, then I must say it is an attempt in bad taste.”
I again see that you STRONGLY refuse to look a few posts earlier. Why do you think Dhaniram and Rafifan (or Rafibhakt) can paint K.L. Saigal black and get away with it? You think they have the rights to get away with anything and everything just for the sole reason that they are Rafi fans? If they insist on all the DIVINITY, UNFALLABILITY,etc, yes, I gave back to them what they deserved. You can convinently ignore the short-comings of Rafi. But why? Other singers can be blasted and ripped apart for their short-comings, but not Rafi. DOUBLE-STANDARDS, isn’t it? You want to interpret my reply as “bad taste”, but ignore the disgusting and stinking attempt of Rafi fans. Good luck. What is here for me to clarify?
Further, about your saying “that he can’t sing a bhajan anywhere close to the calibre displayed by SPB in a particular song,”. Its not about one particular song of SPB. That song was in early 70’s. Listen to his recent devotional songs in “Chants for Children” in the 2009 or “Gaali Gaali Nilu”, a devotional song in kannada released in 2008 on Ayyappa. Thats consistency over a period of almost 35 years. I, for one, don’t remember quality devotional songs of Rafi in the 70’s. PLEASE post me the list of quality devotional songs which you think he sang. So, you see how easy its for you to write “calibre displayed by SPB in a particular song” when the fact is over 35 years and hundreds of quality devotional song. Same is also true for Manna De classical songs. I can go on and on.
My overall stand is that Rafi, like all other artists, has limitations and short-comings. This is not the same as saying that I am attacking Rafi. You don’t want to see it this way. Its ok, I have no problems. Whats the big deal if one music fan did not understand me?
“I can very well go to some SPB site and lash out at SPB in the guise of teaching/correcting/ridiculing his fans who think SPB is unmatchable et al (No, I don?t want to use all the fancy terms which you used).”
Sorry Anil! You have already done that. If not at some SPB forum or site, you have done it right here in this very forum. Your exact words: “For instance, let’s have to say that Kishore (with very little ‘on your face’ classical scores in his disography) or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se.” You don’t have to go to SPB forum, you already did say that Kishore is no great shake as singer per se. If you can criticize Kishore Kumar for his short-comings in a forum exclusively dedicated to him, you should rather expect that your favorite singer will be blasted here, and deservingly so. And if you or other fans say that KK is not great shake, then why are you having problems with me and others who use those very yardsticks in pointing out Rafi short-comings is really beyond me.
“If you still think you haven’t posted anything against Rafi, then I think I haven’t yet learned what ‘against’ exactly means.”
I am certainly convinced that you have not learned that.
“You didn’t answer me directly, you simply bounced some of my questions back. I asked you whether you think Rafi is just another singer with no edge over his compatriots, you replied me something like Rafi fans think Rafi is the best in everything.”
Let me answer directly. Rafi did have many edge (advantages) over many of his compatriots. I will also give the overall edge to Rafi only. The problem only starts when this very edge is used to put down other singers. Not just singers, even music directors, lyricists, co-artists, actors, and many others have been belittled by very many Rafi fans at mohdrafi.com and here.
Let me also clarify one more thing. It does not matter wether Rafi fans think “Rafi is the best in everything” or I think, or you think this way. The fact is “Rafi was NOT the best in everything”.
“I asked you to find out the Jayachandran- M G Sreekumar incident in Malayalam film industry and draw parallel in the HFM post ’69. You replied something like the quality of music in that particular phase was worse but it was even worse in the late ’70s.”
I tried to google about that but did not get much information. You can post that incident here for the benefit of one and all. About drawing the parallel to post 69, I can’t do that as I don’t know the incident. Now about quality of music in 70’s, etc. So many times KK fans are taunted that the early 70’s quality fades in comparison with 50’s and 60’s and hence KK take over is not great. However, when KK fans point back that the late 70’s of Rafi return is even less than magnificient than early 70’s, they form the so-called UAR club. Right?
“I asked you why Ravindra Jain went to Rafi for the technically difficult song and not Kishore and you responded that Ravindra Jain and other MDs didn’t give Rafi any semi-classical songs in the ’70s.”
You want to say that as a whole lets interpret RJ giving technically difficult songs to Rafi over KK as Rafi having edge over KK in this genre. This is the scenario when KJY was not on the scene. However, that very same RJ choosing KJY over Rafi in that very same genre can’t be interpreted as Rafi being less good than KJY. Why again different standard? The gist of my giving this example was that “Don’t interpret Rafi as less better than KJY in a genre coz of numbers, and similarly don’t overproject as KK as an incapable singer of classical songs”. Now who got the wrong meaning is for everybody to see.
“I asked you why the MDs of the South went for SPB in fast songs and Yesu Das in semi-classical songs (generally) while in HFM, the MDs went for Rafi in both types. I don’t exactly remember what your response was, but it was more of a commentary on human psyche than a direct answer.”
First things first here. The number of semi-classical songs of SPB far outnumber Rafi’s numbers, and also over period of time. In kannada, telugu, and tamil the variety of songs that SPB has rendered is too much to be measured. I am now convinced that you have not really listened to SPB at all.
Yesudas may not have been given fast numbers by the MDs. But this can hardly be interpreted as Yesudas shortcoming.
Yes, Rafi was also too too great to be put down in any area. However, don’t use this edge to belittle others.
“You want me to answer why Rafi’s voice deteriorated in the ’70s. I can’t do it since I don’t see any point in doing so. I think your entire line of argument doesn’t make much sense.”
I am not asking you explain why his voice deteriorated. I am asking you to ADMIT it did happen. If you don’t admit it, you can live in denial. No problems.
“Rafi fans think Rafi is unmatched. So if it can be proved that the Rafi voice fell anytime, then Rafi fans can be brought to their knees is a pretty illogical line of argument.”
No problems if Rafi fans think he is unmatched. In fact, they have a right to their love. No, I have no such intention of brining them on their knees. Why should I? I don’t see it logical to put myself on my knees in the public, you see 😀
What I don’t understand though is living in denial. As a Rafi fan myself, its not a shame for me if his voice fell at some point. It had to happen, and it happened.
“For one thing, most of the Rafi fans don’t think Rafi is perfect in everything. Rather it is the fans of some other singers who hold this opinion about their favorites (if in doubt refer to post 1735). For the majority of Rafi fans, Rafi is great in ‘most’ of the aspects of light and moderately classical songs and his voice is the best they have listened to. That’s it.”
I completely agree with this part of your reply, though I will ask you to go through post 1735 again 🙂
“There may be some Rafi fans who think Rafi is the best in every aspect of singing but then you will find more such fellas among fans of other singers. Your strong sentences like ‘Rafi fans think no other singer should be allowed to sing’ can draw a lot of applause from the UAR crowd but it is just not true with the majority of Rafi fans.”
See, we are looking things differently. The people who have directly applaused are more of music fans than X or Y artist.
From my survey of online forums “more such fellas” are Rafi fans. This has nothing to do with Rafi. Its just that there may be more Rafi fans, or it may be even my own wrong sample/inference.
“I have recently seen a video where Anand (of Anand-Milind duo) says something like he switches his radio off immediately after listening to a Rafi sahab song since he doesn’t want to listen to anyone else after listening to Rafi sahab. Will you include this MD under the category of Rafi fans you labelled under a fancy title.”
I just appreciate Anand idolizing Rafi. I don’t see what wrong he is doing there. Did he say that if any artists song is playing on the radio, he turns it off as its not Rafi? Do you seriously and religiously accept what he said? You see, he would definitely listen his own composed songs on radio which were never rendered by Rafi 😀
Further I can tell you for sure if the RJ (radio jockey and not Ravindra Jain, lol) announced earlier “Chand mera dil chandni ho tum” will be followed by “Aake teri bahon mein”, he won’t turn the radio off. And please don’t label Anand in the UAR group then 😛
“Rafi fans simply believe their idol is in a class of his own and they have a right to believe so. They are better left untouched, after all they rarely venture into abusing great artists (unlike the fans of some other singers) or nit picking their short comings (real or imaginary).”
Rafi is better left untouched, and not necessarily Rafi fans. Moreover, if you have forgotten, just in case, this is not mohdrafi.com, its yoodleeyoo.com. Now, come on Anil, how can you say that after Dhaniram painted Saigal black, yourself say that KK is not a great shake as a singer per se, Rafifan/bhakt, all say these things, that Rafi fans rarely venture?
“Just wanted to clarify a couple of points (this might be news for you).
The Anuradha Paudwal story has another twist which you didn’t mention. This singer was the undisputed leader even before her association with T-series. The “Dil” incident happened in 1990 and there was no question of re-creating Anuradha since she was already ahead of the pack you mentioned.”
I seriously doubt your understanding of the 90’s scenario. There was not one single dominating singer, either male or female, before 1990. Before T-series happened, Alka Yagnik had huge hits like Tezaab, Tridev and QSQT. Anuradha had none of this magnitude, and not even major hits of Kavitha Krishnamurthy’s like Mr.India. For sure Anuradha Paudwal was not the undisputed leader. I used the word “recreating” coz she was a lot earlier in the play.
“After this notorious incident, the industry (I mean the HFM and not the T-series) decided to ban her and that’s how she lost out. Anuradha Paudwal was not made by T-series, she came up on her own and it was the ban that finished her off.”
Seriously, the kind of monopoly T-series and Anuradha Paudwal deserved to be isolated and marginalised. The way T-series out-destroyed the trio-female singers is unthinkable of. If you listen to many of the T-series albums during 90-92, so many male solo’s were converted into duets for the sole purpose of printing on the cassettes “All songs sung by Anuradha Paudwal”. Further, this also validates my thinking that the true talent, like Rafi’s, can’t be dominated even by the industry.
“This one is about Ravindra Jain and his opinion about Rafi sahab. This MD had planned a Rafi-Yesu Das duet which didn’t materialise. At the discussion stage he told Yesu Das- ‘let people watch Ganga and Jamuna flowing together’.”
Its unfortunate that we can’t watch that flow ever again 🙂
“I have several reservations about your lists; I can explain them if you are interested.”
I have nothing to say here.
To conclude, I have to add two things. If in my reply to the shamenatics, I have hurt any true music/Rafi fans, I am sorry for that. To be as honest as possible, I was seriously and genuinely upset that even the great K.L. Saigal was belittled by some of the shamenatics. However great and versatile their idols maybe, nothing can change that Saigal is the father of the HFM. You just can’t put your idol there. Its laughable, but pathetically that was exactly what was attempted. My response would have been the same irrespective of wether they were Rafi fans or even Kishore fans. Peace.
Anil, your entire reply to me reminds me of a two year old instance. Remember Pete Sampras community. Remember that oxymoron moderator Rafa~ready who very unfairly deleted Thought Crimes invaluable posts. When we raised those problems, it was not Rafa~ready who was removed from the post of moderator, rather we were unnecessarily warned there. I do remember your indirect support to Rafa~ready, and your soft-corner for him when he would whine in your scrap book. Consequently, many tennis fans around those time never ever returned to the community. Tia has not posted even once since then. If only you had stood against the egoholic moron, we would still be in the community. At the least we would not have felt bad that you did not support that oxymoron guy. But that was not to be the case. Same thing is happening now. Not even in a single post of yours here, you have criticized Dhaniram or Rafibhakt directly. Instead, you have been continously and unabatedly nit-picking my points posted against them and not against Rafi. Like two years back, even today, you can’t criticize the morons. I would still clarify any points you were to ask. Bye.
Mr. Vitthal
The encyclopaedia (wikepaedia) on ghantasala is great, specially the tribute given by indian express rating him as a singer whom no body else could match in various possible moods and genres such as classical, piety, joy, anger, happiness, love, suffering, bitterness etc. I loved it. The telugu translation, i had learnt from somebody, and I loved the topic – golden age of telugu film world under ghantasala – very interesting to read. As I understand, he was a poet too, besides being a versatile music composer as well. The wikepedia further states that he was specialised in filmy music (playback singing) as well as Indian classical music. This is simply great. I could now vouch as correct, Mr. Satyansh’s word’s in the other blog of divine voice of devotional kishore – wherein he stated that ghantasala like singer cannot be found in any industry. That’s great. Keep it up.
Mr. MYK,
Sorry sir, not to hurt you, but really felt very bad on seeing your views in Mr. Satyansh’s post – You had criticised everybody – surprising. How could you undermine ghantasala (really surprising), saigal or kishore kumar. Ghantasala (leave him as he is in a different league), saigal had created an influence with hardly 200 songs which rafi had to achieve by singing some thousands of songs. Kishore had achieved prominence despite limited training skills as compared to rafi and had more versatile achievements and further was more popular than rafi in 70’s. Both saigal and kishore have their own greatness which is clearly a way above rafi in a certain manner. Certainly the comments made by you are simply baseless and to say in the words of Mr. Paramjeet – are comments which are the most funnier ever made, and in the words of Mr. Arghya, to say made by a evergreen fool and in the words of Mr. Satyansh – an evergreen rafi fanatic made such comments. Surprised by such foolish comments of Mr. MYK. Never make such comments Mr. MYK.
Funnier comments from MYK ji,
MYK ji, many have already not appreciated laila majnu song of rafi to the extent you have projected (many previous posts are example for that) and I can show hundreds of persons not appreciating the song of rafi , but for sure, even a single person (even of other languages) cannot be shown who is not fascinated or who will not be bewildered by siva sankari song of ghantasala (even you yourself being a rafi fanatic, acknowledges its excellence) That’s enough to conclude on ghantasala’s capability and you can yourself judge for that. I was really laughing when you wrote that Likhkar tera naam zameen par is tough as siva sankari, I do not know how could you arrive at such immature & illogical conclusion. Even a layman (leave musicians) can clearly differentiate the vast difference between the two songs. I agree with satyansh’s views on ghantasala’s greatness. He is certainly in a different specialised superior league and none can dispute that. No amount of comments can change such fact.
By the way as a pure kishore admirer and lover, let me pen somethijg about about your views on kishore’s classical talents. Some truth in that as he was not classically trained like rafi – fine. But kishore was a special talent who without such training had delivered songs which had won admiration of millions and continue to enjoy even today. That is kishore’s greatness. And by the way never forget, that without any formal training or classical songs achievements, kishore had overtaken rafi, the trained singer. I can never imagine rafi creating any magic in the yodelling renditions, lower registers, whistle register experiments (which has been recently discussed) as kishore. The versatile achievements of kishore in various areas puts hims a class above among all the hindi film singers, the status which has not been achieved by any other singer in hindi film world till today in a different league, certainly special than rafi. You were mentioning some parameters for singing – a singer like rafi could not effectively render lower notes as kishore, could you rate such singer with such parameter as superior ? I do not know, it is upto you to decide.
I really used to admire your english language presentation, but really enjoying lot of fun on reading your most funniest comments as displayed by satyansh here, which perhaps no other rafi fan had made till today. lol’s
Mr. MYK
You had stated :
“There are various parameters by which one becomes a superior singer, just like for a composer, several parameters exist which makes one a versatile composer”
1. Could you specify the various parameters and can you prove that such parameters do not exist in concerned established legends who were declared superior by masses and artists as well (any language) for proving your favourite as superior?
2. Mr. Vitthal was stating that rafi had not rendered certain genres which ghantasala had rendered then, in such case, how can you prove superiority in terms of parameters when it is clear that certain genres have not been attempted at all by rafi, so as to make him superior. I do not know your knowledge regarding padyams, a genre, even trained musicians with tremendous effort cannot execute and you may kindly note that ghantasala had rendered these genres in thousands, (SONGS ARE REALLY NOTHING BEFORE THIS GENRE IN PLAYBACK SINGING – YOU CAN CONFIRM THIS FROM ALL ESTABLISHED MUSICIANS ) i again repeat thousands, with comparative ease and with such uniqueness which no other artist has even come close or matched him till today. This is only an example to just point out the speciality of an artist. Siva Sankari song is not mentioned (for your information) even in wikepedia, when talking about talent and skills of ghantasala. There are various other difficult and tough renditions by the artist. People are just concluding that siva sankari is a benchmark and no body could even come close. Siva sankari like song is nothing for ghantasala (such song however surely is nightmare for others), there are even more tougher renditions where in he had easily shown his skills and no singer can ever come close to those renditions. You can update yourself on the same. Similarly, i do not want to pen much, there are various other similar difficult genres in carnatic music, the credit of execution goes only to southern singers and hindi singers cannot be called as superior, if you compare on technical level of music. See the Indian express tribute in wikepedia on ghantasala, which states that the expressions in songs for all possible moods and genres which ghantasala had created, no singer can ever come close at any time. What do you say on that ? Is it a wrong statement ?
3. Coming back to classical songs of rafi shared here just by Mr. Surajit bose, one song of rafi and other (where rafi sings alaap) – frankly saying that i felt very uncomfortable on hearing rafi’s rendering, which I heard it for the first time and IMHO, in my view, regarding alaaps and rags, i cannot hear anybody after hearing ghantasala in those genres. Just imagine rafi singing siva sankari and I am sure, what will be the feeling, i even cannot imagine for rafi such skills, when you talk about parameters of singing and superiority.
MR PARAMJEET HAS correctly addressed a post to you advising that please learn correctly about music before commenting on established legends. IMHO, your comments (in satyansh’s post) could you confirm whether will receive appreciation by any legend including rafi ? Surely not. But the aforesaid paras of mine are the statements by persons steeped in music (including rafi). Remaining is for you to judge yourself upon your posts.
And MYK ji,
what is your take on an artist who is a versatile singer as well as versatile composer? What do you say on that ? the Post 1729 which I referred in my previous message has lot of thrust on that (especially the 3 rd para – indian express newspaper views)
1758 – ujas
No comparison, that was only a reply in relation to post of Satyansh ji addressed to Myk ji. Please do not try to create confusions.
MYK ji, – You are correct.
“There are countless songs by Rafi for which no singer can ever sing or which other songs do not come close, and the same can apply to other singers and their songs too.”
This is what we have been saying : Your statement, can I take from the last line of yours above, reading/redrafting like this : There are songs by ghantasala (or others) for which no singer can ever sing or which other songs do not come close (incl. rafi as can be understood from the last line in your above para)
In such case, you have to agree with the above para and that is where, others (fans of others) have been putting their points. And due to disagreement, the arguments persist.
MYK ji
Agreed. This discussion won’t lead to anywhere. Only one last question :
You had said
“There are various parameters by which one becomes a superior singer, just like for a composer, several parameters exist which makes one a versatile composer. ”
Can you comment on the above para of yours in line with post 1729 here (by carefully studying the details there)
I expect a honest reply in this regard and with that, for sure, the issues remain closed.
Myk. U dont know Hindi so i trying to write questions to u in English.
‘Kishore’s voice sounded like tire running over it’
Explain in detail alongwith a sample sound of tire running over something.
‘Talentwise Kishore is not even half of Rafi’
give us examples of what is talent.
‘Kishore is never considered while discussing singers from north, east, west, south’
How do u know? Are u a god? Any survey u have made on this?
‘Rafi’s voice was the most manly’
What is the defination of manly voice and what are the qualities of manly voice to you? Give points.
‘Saigal is no match to Rafi in classical singing’
please first answer my questions to Dhani Ram which he did not answer on Saigal. Please.. Now i nake my questions open to all Rafi fans who think Saigal is no match to Rafi 😀
Last question. It seems you are a fanatic and hates Kishore singing or ignores him. then why r u pretending like a music lover here? If u dont like kishore, have the courage to declare this here, in a kishore forum!! Why u say something in rafi forum and sonething else here regarding kishore and music?
rafi detractors
though i have withdrawn from the debate,my name keeps figuring in some posts with derogatory sobriquets added.that is not fair.rafi fans are being called morons,stupid,drivellers and ,to top it all,shamenatics.
will you mind if i use neologisms like kitschorians and ghantasta(t)alians for you? only pettifogging cretins can gang up to pull down the greatest singer the subcontinent has produced.we are not the only ones to hold rafi in the highest esteem.so many south indian maestros have extolled him.in north india every now and then one hears praises of him from those who know what music is.only about two months back in an interview with shekhar gupta on ndtv pandit ravi shankar talked about rafi’s ability to sing classically.he said that rafi had a great tuneful voice.and mind you,but for this single reference to a film singer,the entire interview was about classical music and no mention was made of any other film singer.and such thing keep happening.when kishore was ruling the roost in film singing,mehndi hassan came to india and he began his first concert apologetically addressing an indian audience,’ aapne to rafi sahib jaise ko suna hai”. ghulam ali spoke in the same vein. ghantasala must be great. i have absolutely no intention of belittling his achievement.but when one singer after the other is brought in to somehow take some sheen off rafi,one is left with no choice but to show that the impugned singer is no match for rafi.I would like to ask how ghantasala came into the picture in the first instance when the debate is on rafi and kishore? obviously some people love ghantasala too much and they elevate him to the skies.who can object to that?but when they pit him against rafi trouble starts. i don’t compare rafi to anybody.for me he is supreme.why? simply because of the quality of his voice,his singing abilities,his fantastic range etc.now when i say these things i will be dismissed as subjective.so i give some objective and circumstantial arguements which are indigestible to some people and they begin to resort to invective rather than countering argument with argument.i have no objection to my arguements being called silly because after all we are all silly in so many ways.nobody has the last word of wisdom.we have no right to call others fools.i never do that however vicious be my attack on a singer.
Arghya,
When you say “the reaction would be cold to any non-Rafi fanatic music lover”, how have you come to this conclusion ?. Have you taken a poll ?. I know many Non-Rafi fans who are fond of this song. The LM composition is vintage Jaidev, great from a technical viewpoint, spans high and low notes, and the alaaps are sheer brilliance. If it leaves you cold then that’s fine, “to each his own”. Not everyone has to like this song. To me, the composition is an example of mastery singing. A song does not have to have “notes not ventured or touched by any” to be special.
Anyways, can you please tell me in your opinion, what you think were RD’s Top 5 solo compositions for Kishore ?.
Anil,
‘Rafi fans simple believe that there idol is a class in his own and they have the right to believe.’
To fir kishore fans also think the same for their idol aur aap jaise log hi bin bulaye mehemaan ki tarah yahan pe aa jaate ho jhgadne ke liye aur yeh saabid karne ke liye(bekaar mein ) ke kishore class in his own nahi the.. Yeh rajniti yehi pe bandh karo aur agar jo tumne Rafi fans ke baare mein bola use sahi maante ho to jaan lo hum Kishore dans bhi aese hi sochte hai aur ‘we have the right to belive’.. Get out of here.
Anil,
‘Rafi fans rarely venture into abusing great legends’
Bus.. Aur nahi.. Yeh jhuthi naqaab utar do ab.. What about?
Binu Nair abusing anil bishwas? Arghyaji bhi the us samay.
Sandip nadkarni ka ghatiya comments salil chaudhri aur pancham ko?
Myk ke poorane comments Kishore ke gayaki par? (kishore ki gayaki se lagta hai truck kuchalke gaya hai),..chhi chhi..
Haldar ke ghatiya ur jaahil tippaniya?
B venkatadri ka pancham ko drug addict bolke gaali dena?
Rafibhakt ka kuchh din pehle yahan pe Saigal pe kichar uchhalna?
Dhani Ram ka Kishore ko ‘chanter’ bolna?
Aap vitthalji ke Ghantashala prem pe tippani karte ho post 1735 bolke, jahan pe unhone itni izzat se baat ki, aur apne ghatiya charitra ke Rafi fans ke vakalti kar rahe ho besharam ki tarah?
Bas, ab bahut ho gaya.. Agar aap ne apni baat bol di hai to krupaya yahan se prasthan kare. Aur dubara yeh jhuthi baaton ka sahara mat lena, tum logon ke charitra kharaab tum logon ne khud kiye ho, sachhai chhupake apne aap ko nirdosh mat dikhaao..
When I mention offline discussions, I mean discussions where one can actually discuss in detail without having to respond to various unrelated comments (or mud-slinging) from others which throw off the main discussion (unless ofcourse that can be avoided on public forums). Many topics here have been beaten to death, to which I see no use in discussing anymore. A discussion where someone can gain something from is what is missing, which is why I feel a discussion somewhere else would be better (if one wants that).
Anyways, to each his own.
Kishorefan,
Granted Siva Sankari by Ghantasala is excellent, but his rendition does not make him a superior singer to Rafi. There are various parameters by which one becomes a superior singer, just like for a composer, several parameters exist which makes one a versatile composer. There are countless songs by Rafi for which no singer can ever sing or which other songs do not come close, and the same can apply to other singers and their songs too. There is definitely an element of truth in what I say, it depends on whether you want to look at it from that perspective. One needs an open mind when discussing such issues (which I am sure you have).
It’s best to have this discussion offline, as there is no point in going back to the same old discussions (of which we have had many times) here. Hope you understand. Both You and I will not gain anything out of discussing similar issues here again.
Satyansh,
No point in going back and harping over my posts. What I have written is my opinion (based on what I think is fact), and whether you disagree or not hardly matters.
I did the same for your posts at the “True Voice” thread at the Rafi site, so will not repeat it here (as there is no point). The point is, we agree to disagree, and if you think I am a fanatic, I also think you are one too. Then again it reallie does not matter what both of us think about eachother, in the end we all have our different viewpoints. I don’t agree with the majority of what you write, and find it as timepass, but that doesn’t change anything from your perspective.
The repertoire, talents, songs of various singers, as well as history has laid itself out on the table, and we cannot change that. Discussions on these topics here (which are already beaten to death) will not lead us anywhere because there is no ground or scope for knowedgeable discussion (IMHO). It’s the same types of comments going on (as usual), even at the Rafi site. I think a discussion offline (for this particular topic) would be better where one can actually benefit from the discussions.
Anil @ 1737,
Yes, we have been through it all before. 🙂
We can start afresh, if you wish.
rafi fan @ 1740,
I’m not sure what we are arguing about here. Unless I’m mistaken, you are claiming Rafi to be a technically better singer than Kishore. And by technically, I mean his control over sur and taal in all 3 registers (mandra, madhya, and taar). I’m saying that that is not true and cannot be proven.
I did not take songs like “Aaj mausam beimaan hai”, because for a singer as talented as Rafi (or Kishore, for that matter), it is not a really challenging song. The song itself does not span a lot of notes, or does it quickly switch across a lot of notes. This song is not something that Kishore would’ve not been able to sing.
We are not arguing here about what kind of songs defined which singer. We are looking at their overall technical ability, in terms of voice control, range, modulation, expression, versatility, flexibility. And while each had their own strengths, they were very close overall.
I agree with you that music is, to a large extent, subjective. However, it’s basic premises – sur, taal – have to be met first. For example, I enjoy a lot of songs of Mukesh and Hemant Kumar, and yet, I’ll be the first to tell you that they go off-key A LOT (relatively speaking). So, subjectivity comes into the picture only when the singer has no discernable flaws in the technical department. We are not trying to convert Rafi fans to Kishore fans, or vice versa. We are trying to establish a set of valid and objective criteria to compare them.
I don’t understand why kishorefan is coming with comparing Rafi with Gantasala.Do they compare Kishore with Gantasala?
Balarykar (again),
Just wanted to clarify a couple of points (this might be news for you).
The Anuradha Paudwal story has another twist which you didn’t mention. This singer was the undisputed leader even before her association with T-series. The “Dil” incident happened in 1990 and there was no question of re-creating Anuradha since she was already ahead of the pack you mentioned. After this notorious incident, the industry (I mean the HFM and not the T-series) decided to ban her and that’s how she lost out. Anuradha Paudwal was not made by T-series, she came up on her own and it was the ban that finished her off.
This one is about Ravindra Jain and his opinion about Rafi sahab. This MD had planned a Rafi-Yesu Das duet which didn’t materialise. At the discussion stage he told Yesu Das- ‘let people watch Ganga and Jamuna flowing together’.
I have several reservations about your lists; I can explain them if you are interested.
Rafi fan,
I think I know who you are; you share your surname with two great singers from Bengal, right?
I liked your recent posts. You express it very well, I can’t do it even if I tried.
Speaking of the Rafi voice, what I feel is that the thinness et al creeped into his voice only towards the final phase; if he sounded thin pre ’72-73, it was by design (‘mujhe le chalo…’, ‘ooparwala jaankar anjaan…’, ‘meri duniya mein ..’ etc.).
I don’t think ‘baat chalat..’ is a bad effort. Actually I would rate it as a good effort for what Rafi sahab was called upon to execute. He wasn’t supposed to mirror the ustaad’s singing; if that was the case, the MD would have brought in Manna Da. He was supposed to play the role of the sweet-voiced ‘shishya’ who learns from the ustaad and who can execute the final alaap at a pretty high pitch.
Balarykar,
I understand that you are not going to reply/clarify anymore on the ‘Rafi’s fallibility’ theory but you expect a reply from me; Am I getting it correct this time?
You want me to see the big picture but what is it? All I see is a list of the so called short-comings of Rafi- that his voice wasn’t any good after the ’50s, that he was finished by 1969, that he can’t sing a bhajan anywhere close to the calibre displayed by SPB in a particular song, that he couldn’t sing a semi-classical song after he crossed 45, that he can’t sing a technically difficult song which Yesu Das sang, that he couldn’t displace the top singers of SFM despite singing in South Indian languages etc. If you claim that your attack was aimed at Rafi-fans and not at Rafi himself, then I must say it is an attempt in bad taste. I can very well go to some SPB site and lash out at SPB in the guise of teaching/correcting/ridiculing his fans who think SPB is unmatchable et al (No, I don’t want to use all the fancy terms which you used). If you still think you haven’t posted anything against Rafi, then I think I haven’t yet learned what ‘against’ exactly means.
You didn’t answer me directly, you simply bounced some of my questions back. I asked you whether you think Rafi is just another singer with no edge over his compatriots, you replied me something like Rafi fans think Rafi is the best in everything. I asked you to find out the Jayachandran- M G Sreekumar incident in Malayalam film industry and draw parallel in the HFM post ’69. You replied something like the quality of music in that particular phase was worse but it was even worse in the late ’70s. I asked you why Ravindra Jain went to Rafi for the technically difficult song and not Kishore and you responded that Ravindra Jain and other MDs didn’t give Rafi any semi-classical songs in the ’70s. I asked you why the MDs of the South went for SPB in fast songs and Yesu Das in semi-classical songs (generally) while in HFM, the MDs went for Rafi in both types. I don’t exactly remember what your response was, but it was more of a commentary on human psyche than a direct answer.
You want me to answer why Rafi’s voice deteriorated in the ’70s. I can’t do it since I don’t see any point in doing so. I think your entire line of argument doesn’t make much sense. ‘Rafi fans think Rafi is unmatched. So if it can be proved that the Rafi voice fell anytime, then Rafi fans can be brought to their knees’ is a pretty illogical line of argument. For one thing, most of the Rafi fans don’t think Rafi is perfect in everything. Rather it is the fans of some other singers who hold this opinion about their favorites (if in doubt refer to post 1735). For the majority of Rafi fans, Rafi is great in ‘most’ of the aspects of light and moderately classical songs and his voice is the best they have listened to. That’s it. There may be some Rafi fans who think Rafi is the best in every aspect of singing but then you will find more such fellas among fans of other singers. Your strong sentences like ‘Rafi fans think no other singer should be allowed to sing’ can draw a lot of applause from the UAR crowd but it is just not true with the majority of Rafi fans. I have recently seen a video where Anand (of Anand-Milind duo) says something like he switches his radio off immediately after listening to a Rafi sahab song since he doesn’t want to listen to anyone else after listening to Rafi sahab. Will you include this MD under the category of Rafi fans you labelled under a fancy title. Rafi fans simply believe their idol is in a class of his own and they have a right to believe so. They are better left untouched, after all they rarely venture into abusing great artists (unlike the fans of some other singers) or nit picking their short comings (real or imaginary).
1742 – Balarykar prabhanjan to anil
I really enjoy your posts. – nightmare has to be with “Shamenatics And with Rafi” club and not UAR.
1741 – Rafi fan
Your statement in your said post
“If you like Ghantasala and I like Rafi, we’re both happy”
Thanks but – Sorry, you are mistaken, I like both, since I know pretty well about both and their numerous songs. I really advise you not to arrive at conclusions based on just incomplete knowledge which is the main reason for unnecessary arguments. A sincere advise please. Just go through the links I have posted in my previous posts. That should be OK.
Next, we had learnt knew things about Kishore kumar as well in these forums, one interesting thing was the whistle register – fund based genres, which was shared by Paramjeet ji and Satyansh ji in the other thread. What do you say on that ?
Just do not say that “i respect kishore for his talent but rafi would have definitely done that in a better way” oh ….
1737 – Anil
My request for KJY’s songs was for rafi fan here and not for me. I had requested the songs in comparison with KJY’s hindi songs. I have heard KJY’s songs in plenty and I am well aware of his songs.
“Likhkar tera naam zameen par’..
Hmm.. what is so special about that? Some high notes never touched by any? Some low notes never ventured by any? Some mukris or alaaps out of the reach of any? Some modulations and expressions never tried or succesed by any? Kindly explain.. Any of all yu trained musicians… I heard it many times.. In fact, I found ” Barbaad- e- mohabbat”, “Husn hazeer hai” and “Yeh reshmi paazeb ki jhankaar” as better songs from the same album or for that matter a “Kabhi khud pe kabhi halaat pe” as a better Rafi-Jaidev number!! “Likhkar tera naam…” is quite cold for me, and its reaction would be cold to any non-Rafi fanatic music lover (just like how Vitthalji reacted to “Khushi do ghadi ki”- great to the fans of the idol, but just good for anyone else).
Cheers!!!
(visit http://www.kishoreda.org)
Rafi fan bhai,(your post to Satyanshji)
‘when I see something drivel I choose to ignore them rather than to document like you’
Kaash, aapke dost log bhi aesa karte :D.
Rafi fan
Kindly carefully read each word in post 1729 of vitthal ji and the details therein and come back with your views please. That should set things right.
Rafi fan again, contd…
You state
“Rafi wins easily. Rafi vs Kishore is more interesting. Kishore wins for his style of fun but Rafi is very well balanced with fun, spontaneity, and professionalism and is unique himself in that regard. Kishore fans try to overemphasize Rafi’s professionalism to eclipse’ Rafi’s natural expressions but they are missing out.”
Again subjective here, you acknowledge kishore’s winning style, but tilt towards rafi again (find again you can have your liking). Nevertheless, barring rafi’s sweet voice (which almost everyone agrees) all of your other views on rafi stands purely subjective specially when comparisons come with other established legends.