An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Rafi fan,
That was indeed SPB in post 1841. As I pointed out to (I believe it is) you in the ‘other’ site, SPB’s voice (especially when young) has shades of the Ghantasala-ish or let’s say the typical South Indian film male voice of the vintage era.
How’s this voice for smoothness and velvet finish?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcR9J3R8EfM
And this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUDGWXPvNe8&feature=related
Any guesses who both these singers adore the most (among light singers)?
Rafi fan,
Just hear this song of ghantasala
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=8205&wid=1228
i apologize for my comical mistake…i was wondering how the voice was suddenly so smooth and velvety just as i like it…
i realize that was spb and not ghantasala after listening to the song several times (as it is very nice and melodious).
i knew that sounded very familiar 🙂 doesn’t surprise me that i really liked the voice…i greatly admire spb, have heard a few of his tamil songs (like the original to neele neele ambar) and have cherished some of his hindi songs (regardless of what his critics have to say about accent / diction – his voice & expression of emotions are top class).
my favorite voices are rafi, kishore
just to clarify, that is the best display of voice i have heard *from* ghantasala.
i know many ghantasala fans who are more knowledgeable than i will disagree but i trust my ears. i like his voice better in this song than the voice in “siva sankari”.
all right…this is the best display of voice i’ve heard even among the 50+ songs shared to me by ghantasala’s fans…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfCnYnXhyIw&feature=related
Ennenno Janmala Bandham Needi Naadi
the voice is smoother & velvety compared to his voice in other songs.
all i can conclude is this…too bad ghantasala didn’t sing hindi songs. those are the songs that i best appreciate. it’s really hard to compare him to rafi when ghantasala never sang hindi songs. what’s impressive is that this video is in color, ghantasala left for his heavenly abode in 1974, so this song must have been in his later career where he still maintained great ability. i really have nothing further than this to say. good day!
kishorefan makes the following statements:
“personally i like kishore da ’s songs for dharmendra.”
sounds good to me! my favorite dharmendra – kk song is “gyrah nahi bajey” from phandebaaz. excellent chemistry in that song too and rd burman’s entire album was a masterpiece.
“kishore da was the first voice of dharmendra then rafi .”
incorrect fact.
“dharmendra liked kishoreda’s voice more than rafi.”
incorrect fact. dharmendra acknowledged as recent as 2005 that all the singers who sang for him (kishore kumar, hemant kumar etc) made invaluable, critical contributions to his career, but rafi was his personal favorite. even during the peak of the kishore wave, dharmendra was open to rafi as his voice.
needless to say, kishorefan you are free to believe what you wish. however, when you state such blatantly incorrect *facts* (not opinion or observational remarks) than there’s nothing to discuss farther … 🙂
Rafi fan – 1836
A nice balanced post and interesting views. My respects and regards for your post. Both the legends were awesome and as somebody was mentioning here, indeed were the pillars of indian playback singing. Thanks a lot for your views and the “interesting” post. I agree with you, there is nothing further to debate when the point of “common clear understanding” is arrived between two arguers. Music lovers are fortunate to enjoy the great music charm created by such artists.
Great discussions are going on. One’s idea or liking need not match other’s. One thing is sure. Lata, Rafi, Ghantasala and Suseela are supreme just by their talent, achievements. They are the bench mark for many. Their greatness need not be agreed by all for sure, as it doesn’t need. Greatness once achieved just can not be erased. After reading a critical comment against them, just listen to their innumerable songs – one finds the solace. It is not correct comparing them (Rafi, Ghantasala) with each other. Their roots, language, music style, voice etc were poles apart. But don’t forget Mother Earth has two poles! They are the Origin and the rest follow suit. Every era had a singer or two, but these two remain forever. Please just avoid comparing them with each other and them with others too as it looks odd!
1831 – Prabhakar Nukala garu, and all music lovers.
You have type the website address incorrectly. The semi colon coma after the address should be removed. It is as follows:
http://www.ghantasala.info
This is website of ghantasala. Interested Music lovers may kindly visit the site.
Hi Sandeep,
“Do you seriously think that such singer can create monarchy for 3 decades in a film industry, if he rolled out or such industry rolled out only classical songs for so many decades. unless such singer is a creative versatile genius in “playback singing which encompasses various types of genres and not only classical” can he achieve such kingly status without competition (as you agree yourself).”
I don’t think Ghantasala sang just classical songs and have acknowledged his versatility before. What is is true that when Ghantashala fans have shared his songs with me, most of the songs were at least semi-classical. As many have pointed out, Hindi is the national language and so it is open to a far greater pool of talent. As a result of this fact, I suspect that the Telegu industry is not as rich and dynamic as HFM. This of course does not preclude the Telegu industry from having its own great talents like Ghantasala. The “Kishore Kumar wave” from 1969 is a good example of a dynamic event. I wonder about the richness of the Telegu industry if one man could be #1 for 30 years. Often, change occurs not because of pure merit but because of trends in the style of art. No one likes to hear the same voice again and again. It is the good fortune in HFM that Kishore Kumar’s voice was a rich alternative to Mohammed Rafi’s golden voice and added variety in HFM. If a Kishore Kumar had not been encompassed by the large talent pool of HFM or if the industry wasn’t so dynamic to let a single movie Aradhana change the tides overnight, then perhaps we would not have seen the RD Burman – Kishore Kumar peak of the early 70s. But the Hindi Film Industry was too rich and dynamic. In fact, only 5 years after Aradhana music would begin to take a new turn (perhaps for the worse) with the themes of Amitabh Bachchan movies. I’m also not too keen on exact figures like “30 years” because that can be subject to interpretation by Ghantasala fans. For example, Mohammed Rafi was not the commercially #1 singer in 1970 but he still sang some of the qualitatively best songs that also were very popular.
“The correct point would be ghantasala was excellently and perfectly fit and successful in southern industry as rafi was for hindi.”
I’ve made this point several times before.
“My view was if you see only from southern industry point of view, ghantasala perfetly appears superior, and might be from hindi industry point of view, if you only look (as you currently are doing) rafi may appear superior (though you still admit ghantasala to be superior in some genres which is however a fact).”
Thank you! Now I’m confused because I’ not sure why we are debating. The above line indicates to me that you understand what I have chosen to do (which I did make quite clear) and from *that point of view* you do not object my conclusion. Yes, I am looking from the Hindi industry point of view from which Rafi does appear superior. Yes, I have stated several times prior that from the southern industry point of view, Ghantasala appears perfectly superior. I presume your issue is with the the following…
“At least the background and the status which was enjoyed by the singer should always be kept in mind while penning comments (1815 again)”
I was aware of Ghantasala’s background and status. What relevance does it have if we evaluate him from the HFM point of view? If you mean to treat him with respect for his achievments in Telegu then sure. Otherwise, I don’t understand so spell it out for me. HFM and the Telegu music industry also have different emphasis. Michael Jordan was a great sports figure in basketball but that didn’t matter much when he joined a different sport in baseball. Oh sure, people respected Michael Jordan for his past achievments in basketball but they still cared only for his performance in baseball and how he compared with the other baseball players.
“Even rafi had literally failed in southern industry, and this point you have always to keep in mind, especially when discussion is made about telugu songs and southern industry (e.g. post 1815, which is in poor taste) since non telugu people do not possess much knowledge on the industry, its culture and language.”
First, I don’t think Rafi had “*literally* failed in the southern industry”. His version of “Kuhu Kuhu” was not as good as Ghantasala’s but on an absolute scale it was decent and far from a failed effort. Of course, I am aware that in the competitive music industry, only the best version is preferred. This is not a big deal for me and so I won’t pursue this further but I wanted to throw in a few comments regarding it for the heck of it.
I have no problem with truth and embrace it regardless of whether it is pleasant or not. I have nothing to gain by rejecting truth. So if someone tells me that Rafi didn’t render “Baat Chalat” particularly well, then I accept it. With this and mind and with respect to you, I see a double standard here. Anything less than flattering about Ghantasala, even if not an insult but an evaluation shared by many, is “in poor taste”. Yet, it’s perfectly OK to say something less than flattering about Rafi i.e. “had literally failed”. It IS OK to say something less than flattering about Rafi but the same holds for Ghantasala so long as there is truth to it. It’s also funny that some select Ghantasala fans say Rafi’s fans paint him as a flawless God yet it is the Ghantasala fans who cannot accept anything less than flattery regarding Ghantasala. I don’t think this is a big deal but I did want to point it as I find it funny. 🙂
“nother point, I do not know perhaps you are aware or not that ghantasala was a versatile music director besides being a “accomplished playback singer” and poet as well, which places him above rafi as a musician, if you take the talent as whole for a musician – for sure, ghantasala appears to be more versatile as a musician than rafi – this is my view.”
I was aware of that. I only care about the singing. With music directors like Shankar Jaikishan, SD Burman, OP Nayyar, etc. I need someone who fully specializes in singing so well that he can make possible the compositions of those MDs and then some more. That man was Mohammed Rafi.
Hi Sastry,
But was Mohammed Rafi present too 🙂 Just kidding. I am pleased that Ghantasala magnificently represented India at the UN assembly in 1971. However, I never take awards or *personal comments* from other human beings as *absolute truths*. It’s nice that he was touted with a majestic voice. By absolute terms, all the singers mentioned here are supreme. When you start comparing and talking in relative terms as we are…then the picture looks different. Mount Kilamanjaro is tall…but compared to Mount Everest it is not so tall.
That article was a nice summary of Ghantasala’s achievments but I don’t see it any different than the typical article we read about Kishore Kumar or Mohammed Rafi which talks about their inimitable, unique, evergreen contributions objectively with a few hyperbolic statements here and there.
contd…
The rafi fan UTTHARA JI, in my previous post I had quoted “she” in one line, I am sorry if I am not correct with the word. If it is wrong, excuses please.
Hello music lovers,
There is a beautiful recent post by one UTTHARA JI , A HINDUSTHANI AND CARNATIC MUSICIAN in True voice Col. of Mohd. rafi – post 1945. The IRONY is that she had to ask for forgiveness, (in spite of her exalted status as a musician and knowledge of various languages) barely for quoting some bare truths, only with a intention that some of the “fanatics might be hurt due to lack of proper reasoning & application of mind correctly to established facts and truths ” – only because some bare truths are spoken.
note: please ignore the prior post as this website has some technical issues. apologies for the trouble.
Hi Kishorefan,
“Any song be it filmy or any other song, classical music has to be the base.”
Sounds good to me. A good playback singer should have a certain level of proficiency in classical music and the technicalities of music. No one likes to hear a singer go off key. MDs have an easier time conveying tunes to the singer. Such proficient singers can more easily sing compositions that require vocal acrobatics like “Meri Zindagi Mein Aate” or “Main Hoon Jhum Jhum Jhumroo” (good kid’s song IMO). Lots of essential benefits. However, the keywords are “base” and “proficient”. The base fundamentals are critical but after a certain point of proficiency of classical music, other factors have greater importance than *further* classical expertise *for playback singing*.
It’s like hiring a high school math teacher. The “base” is that the candidate knows math very well. Candidate A has no high school education of math but connects well with students. Candidate B has a master’s degree in math and connects well with students. Candidate C has a PhD in math but doesn’t connect as well with students. Who do you take? A is out because she doesn’t have the basic proficiency. B & C clearly have the “base” requirement but there’s little benefit of a PhD over a master’s for high school math. So you take candidate B who has other qualities that become more important after the required proficiency. Now if this were an academic position at a university, candidate C would be best. Of course this is just an analogy and the candidates do not refer to the singers themselves for Ghantasala connected extremely well with his listeners.
IIRC Kishore Kumar had “some” classical training from his sister otherwise he’d ge a great riddle here.
“And in such technicality, if a singer is quite expert, what do you say on that? got it.”
The word I prefer is “proficient”. Kishore Kumar was not an expert at classical singing but he was more than proficient in the base of playback singing. Mohammed Rafi was very proficient with the required “base” for playback singing and had the imperative knowledge of classical music and technical soundness.
I hope you correctly accept this simple but critical point that I have repeated several times. I will not repeat this anymore not because I don’t have the patience but because I think it’s bad practice. You either get it; or you don’t; or get it but choose to ignore it. God Bless. I think you understand all this. How could you not? You’re a Kishore Kumar fan! Kishore Kumar, the man who proudly proclaimed he didn’t know the Sa of SaReGaMa but was one of the most revered playback singers!. Surely you just choose to ignore it. The unfortunate consequence is that *you describe* my views in a distorted manner due to your unscrupulous misinterpretaton (but I suppose that’s not such a big deal as we’re all conversing for the *fun* of music).
“Manna dey getting less chances than rafi is due to, agreed, rafi had a sweeter voice than manna, as such rafi was preferred. Manna was classically ahead than rafi, you agree with that”
Agree and proves my above sentiments! When in doubt, just read these two lines again which are your own!
Hi Kishorefan,
“Any song be it filmy or any other song, classical music has to be the base.”
Sounds good to me. A good playback singer should have a certain level of proficiency in classical music and the technicalities of music.
No one likes to hear a singer go off key. MDs have an easier time conveying tunes to the singer. Such proficient singers can more easily
sing compositions that require vocal acrobatics like “Meri Zindagi Mein Aate” or “Main Hoon Jhum Jhum Jhumroo” (good kid’s song IMO).
Lots of essential benefits. However, the keywords are “base” and “proficient”. The base fundamentals are critical but after a certain
point of proficiency of classical music, other factors have greater importance than *further* classical expertise *for playback singing*.
It’s like hiring a high school math teacher. The “base” is that the candidate knows math very well. Candidate A has no high school
education of math but connects well with students. Candidate B has a master’s degree in math and connects well with students. Candidate C
has a PhD in math but doesn’t connect as well with students. Who do you take? A is out because she doesn’t have the basic proficiency. B
& C clearly have the “base” requirement but there’s little benefit of a PhD over a master’s for high school math. So you take candidate B
who has other qualities that become more important after the required proficiency. Now if this were an academic position at a university,
candidate C would be best. Of course this is just an analogy and the candidates do not refer to the singers themselves for Ghantasala
connected extremely well with his listeners.
IIRC Kishore Kumar had “some” classical training from his sister otherwise he’d be a great riddle here.
“And in such technicality, if a singer is quite expert, what do you say on that? got it.”
The word I prefer is “proficient”. Kishore Kumar was not an expert at classical singing but he was more than proficient in the base of
playback singing. Mohammed Rafi was very proficient with the required “base” for playback singing and had the imperative knowledge of
classical music and technical soundness.
I hope you correctly accept this simple but critical point that I have repeated several times. I will not repeat this anymore not because
I don’t have the patience but because I think it’s bad practice. You either get it; or you don’t; or get it but choose to ignore it. God
Bless. I think you understand all this. How could you not? You’re a Kishore Kumar fan! Kishore Kumar, the man who proudly proclaimed he
didn’t know the Sa of SaReGaMa but was one of the most revered playback singers!. Surely you just choose to ignore it. The unfortunate
consequence is that *you describe* my views in a distorted manner due to your unscrupulous misinterpretation (but I suppose that’s not such a big deal as we’re all conversing for the *fun* of music).
“Manna dey getting less chances than rafi is due to, agreed, rafi had a sweeter voice than manna, as such rafi was preferred. Manna was
classically ahead than rafi, you agree with that”
Agree and proves my above sentiments! When in doubt, just read these two lines again which are your own!
Dear fans of Rafi and Kishore Kumar,
Please visit the web site http://www.ghantasala.info, a unique web site where in you will find every week one audio song and one video song are posted.
@Rafifan:
“I don’t want to compare SPB & Rafi as I am a big fan of both and believe that they were both supreme in their ways. Also, there are a lot of qualities of Rafi I love that I also find in SPB. I was watching a youtube clip where SPB is at a casual gathering with friends and he sings “Mere Mehboob Tujhe”. Just like Rafi, he sang from the heart and had beautiful expressions.”
First thing is that if Arghya, Satyansh, Paramjeet, and Vittal sir say that I compared SPB and Rafi, I will stop posting that moment onwards. Not just here, but all music forums. Yes, if SPB speaks for 30 mins, its a certainty that Rafi will come up 🙂
“Unfortunately, I was unable to find the recent SPB bhajans you cited. I’ll hear it another day but I have no doubt that it is stellar. You point out SPB singing a great bhajan 35 years later whereas you don’t recall the same for Rafi. In my humble opinion, your comparison has a confounding factor that makes your point somewhat flawed. Although I care for what actually happened (nevermind the whys), I do want to explain a why in this matter. The confounding factor here is health. SPB is still in great health (and I hope this is true for at least another 20 years) whereas Mohammed Rafi was in very poor health during his last years which no doubt affected his renditions and he died of a serious heart attack at the age of 55 (but he lives on through his immortal voice). I think if he was in better health and lived longer, he would have even better met your criteria. Nevertheless, I will share with you two of my favorite Rafi bhajans from the 70s. I’m sure you’ve heard them before (and probably were not impressed). The first one is at the beginning of the decade “Sukh Ke Sab Saath” and the second is at the end of the decade “Tu Ne Mujhe Bulaya Sherawaliyon”.”
One can probably blame Rafi himself for not meeting the high standards that he kept in his earlier career.
I do understand that there a zillion reasons for any singer to not be the same throughout the lifetime. If a singer is consistent for a period of even 10 years, in my books, s/he is indeed a great singer. We are so much spoiled by KK, Rafi, SPB, Yesudas, et al., that most of us surely don’t appreciate the current lot. Take for example Sukhvinder Singh. Agreed that he is best suited for high pitch songs. But credit to him for moulding his career around it. This man has not sung more than 200 songs over the past 12 years. To be fair enough, no singer should be blamed if they are not great beyond 45.
And please don’t tell me more about SPB’s health. I know things more in detail here. This guy has been so lucky that he has said many times in his interviews. As a professional singer, he did all the things which were enemy of a singer. Each day,he drank almost half-a-litre rum, smoked a pack of cigarrettes, and was a sucker for ice-creams. Surely, this can’t be called effort 😀
And though we would alll like if KK, Rafi, et al. to have lived at least 20 more years, I would not have liked if they were singing the same volume as they did during their prime. It is here where one must really appreciate KJY and SPB. Post 50, they cut down heavily on the number of songs they sung.
“Anyway, I just wanted to share those two songs with you as examples of bhajans from the 70s that I liked. I know I’m at loss here but my favorite bhajans are the ones that are simple, have a beautiful voice, and natural expressions of emotions. Rafi fits that mold extremely well for me personally. I’m sure SPB would too. ”
The first bhajan is a class apart, and I don’t have to add anything about it. Though the second one is decent, I confess that I can never listen that song twice in succession. Thats what as a fan I expect from the icons. Give me any Rafi KK number before 70’s, and many KK inspirational songs in the 70’s. Comfortably, we can listen them multiple times over in succession. It is this factor that I really missed in most of Rafi’s song after 75. It may be “Yamma Yamma” from Shaan, as a second example. You may listen to these very songs multiple times in succession though.
hahaha, forgive me for my double negative 🙂
i meant to write, “once again, i never expressed such apprehension.”
Hi Srivas
“Rafi fan hope you might have now realised what mistake you have done by making a comment on a exemplary music director.”
I did not say anything negative about the composition. I only said that I liked Shankar Jaikishan’s composition better and categorically emphasized it as an opinion. There’s nothing negative nor unreasonable about that. Shankar Jaikishan need no introduction in the Hindi Film Industry 🙂
“should put a rest over your apprehensions of the exemplary and superior composition skills of Mr. Rao”
once again, i never expressed no such apprehension.
Hi Sastry,
“This should put at rest your doubts about “melody” which you are frequently hovering into.”
I never expressed any unrest over “melody” regarding Ghantasala. Never.
I read that article you linked too. I like the first photo of Ghantasala. It’s a nice article summarizing Ghantasala’s achievments and significance which I never doubted.
Hi Kishorefan,
“A joker post, i should put. Who said the telugu song is not melodious – it is indeed very melodious”
If you say a post is joker / senseless – that’s fine – but it’d be generous of you if you could cite a specific statement that is the reason for that. You have but the problem is – I never stated it. I never said that the telegu song is not melodious or that the hindi song is more melodious. Never. For my own edification, please provide me a single line where I have made such a statement.
“You can create any number of arguments for supporting rafi even if they or logical or not, it does not matter.”
Once again, if you consider an argument illogical, please cite specific detail. Otherwise, it just seems that you’re throwing something out there without substance.
“How can you appreciate a song without giving importance to its technicality ?”
I give importance to the basic technicality of a song itself. It is very important to me that a singer maintains sur which Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar did exemplary well in their film songs. Rafi was technically proficient for all the songs that he sang. This is a very important, “mother” criteria that Rafi does meet and therefore allows us to continue and appreciate his other great talents like voice and expression.
I will have to address the other interesting posts later as today is a busy day 🙁
I especially look forward to Khan *sahab’s* (now I have to respect him) post which stands out for me because it addresses specifically the very essence of my disagreement. 🙂
Hello music lovers,
It is really thrilling arguments over who is the best singer. Is it not a great thing to note that ghantasala, rafi, kishore etc. were singers who passed away decades back, but still lingering in popularity, as can be seen by the various discussions and arguments from their respective fans. This is enough to know their greatness as playback singers. Let people start sharing good knowledgeable views instead of instigating fighting in this forum of the great singer – kishore kumar.
Rafi fan
LAST QUESTION FOR YOU . WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ON THE LINK IN POST 427 IN DIVINE VOICE OF DEVOTIONAL KISHORE THREAD HERE. I HOPE YOU WON’T ESCAPE THIS QUESTION OF MINE.
Rafi fan
In 1971, ghantasala sang in UNO general assembly, many other notable singers were present. His voice was declared as the most sweetest and authoritative voice. (this view is always held by all southern playback singers) This should put at rest your doubts about “melody” which you are frequently hovering into.
Rafi fan
You can create any number of arguments for supporting rafi even if they or logical or not, it does not matter. For one thing, I had said many times, which no body can or will dispute. I again repeat i.e. classical singing is the mother of playback singing : remember. Any song be it filmy or any other song, classical music has to be the base. So your baseless argument and dislike towards technicality of music is sheer joke. it shows your inability to comprehend music in its base and original form. How can you appreciate a song without giving importance to its technicality ? And in such technicality, if a singer is quite expert, what do you say on that? got it.
Manna dey getting less chances than rafi is due to, agreed, rafi had a sweeter voice than manna, as such rafi was preferred. Had manna had a sweeter voice similar to rafi , what would have happened ? can you imagine ? Manna would have been in hindi similar to ghantasala (as he was in telugu) ? Manna was classically ahead than rafi, you agree with that ?
@Anil:
Let me start with the most famous KK-Manna Dey song: “Ek chatur naar karke singaar, mere man ke dwar ye ghusat jaat”. Its a lot relevant for my reply, and also appropriate 🙂
Please answer each and every question here. Of course, you may do this after you have completed your series of replies to me 🙂
About the Saigal angle:
The first post about Saigal praise was by Vivek Vardhan. (Post No. 1670) See, what he posted:
“What about saigal? with only 185 songs, he is the guru of bollywood ? Lata, rafi, manna, talat, mahendra, hemant, mukesh all refer to him as the icon and base of hindi playback singing. The popularity of saigal in hindi cinema with only few songs – could anybody match. Is there any singer who with only few songs has become such popular.
Saigal’s experiment with music is very interesting to understand. He had become alcoholic and died very young. Otherwise, I do not think any other hindi singer could have achieved prominence if he continued.”
In summary: Vivek Vardhans post is more in praise of Saigal. There is no direct comparison to Rafi. If he said “Saigal’s experiment with music is very interesting to understand. He had become alcoholic and died very young. Otherwise, I do not think any other hindi singer could have achieved prominence if he continued.”, he has not directed it at Rafi, he has included all the singers. Please, please, please. Show how is this post attacking Rafi, or even Rafi fans? I don’t think rights are of two types, Rafi-fans right, and no rights for non-Rafi-fans, right?
Rafibhakt’s first response for Vivek’s post (Post No. 1674):
“1670 – vivek vardhan
Saigal – guru of bollywood – Kab se ban gaye bhai. Saigal ke jamane me itna competition aur talent nahi tha, jo ki praja log anek talent ke bare me jankari prapt karein. Saigal is one of great singers and at that time since there was no competition or there were no established singers, he could establish himself for a limited period. Since he was the first established singer, subsequent legends, naturally have respect for him.
Rafi would have easily overtaken saigal, whose voice had nasal effect, if saigal was there at the time of rafi. Mohd. Rafi ji ka voice sabse melodious aur sundar hai hindi mein. Rahi kishore ji ki baat, agar sahi tara se sangeet ke bare me charcha kara jaye, to rafi ji technically kishore ji se badkar the, toh as a musician, kishore rafi ji se piche hai, or sangeet ke vishaya mein agar basha ka bhedbhav ka importance nahi diya ho to ghantasala ji sabse aage hai as a singer/musician. ”
Still, like they say in hindi “Chor ki daadi mein tinka”. In this forum, and not mohdrafi.com, its not Kishore Kumar fans who poked their nose and objected to Saigal praise. Who has more rights to object here? Kishore fans or Rafi fans?
Now, lets see what the great Rafibhakt said. Why he, as a Rafi fan, is so jealous of Saigal achievements? Look at his response. Is it not as if Vivek compared first? Can’t he tolerate even a single post in praise of other artists? Vivek’s post was not even 10% offensive to Rafi. Still, Rafibhakt says about Saigal like “no competition only then good Saigal, not a guru really, limited period, nasal singer, etc etc”. Was that really required? Will he or you say that Rafi is limited period singer coz we can now find singers whose period was way higher than Rafi?
And regarding Saigal being the guru of bollywood, it can’t be changed. I will address this later.
And now, the man who comes under his own name, Dhaniram (Post No. 1683):
“among hindi film singers rafi is not only incomparable but far ahead of all others. More than an icon saigal is a fetish with some people.Having an extremely limited vocal range,saigal had a limited repertoire.his articulation is imperfect. he sings: kya jaadu haeee when it should be hai. song after song it is the same monotony.that is why hardly anybody listens to him except those who wish to look different.saigal couldn’t have sung any of rafi’s songs with any success whereas rafi could have even if not with hundred percent success . Imagine saigal even trying guzare hain aaj ishq mein hum us muqaam se or main nigaarhein tere chehare se hataon kaise and scores and scores of others cherished by millions. ajahoon na aae balma saigal couldn’t have sung in his dream even.
well,so far as saigal’s praise by rafi is concerned,it happens when one is struggling and the other is already in his prime.in the initial stages rafi might have even tried to imitate saigal but that proves nothing.mukesh’s example has been cited.but after dil jalta and some others mukesh had to get out of the mould as he knew that as saigal clone he had no future.
saigal,a foundational singer for hindi film industry? yes, a great singer- no. rafi’s equal,by no means.please excuse me. ”
The first sentence is ok here. As a fan he can believe his icon is incomparable. Now see, in the very next sentence how he makes a stick of Rafi’s strength and then beats up Saigal. If you (Anil) have an appreciation of the late 30’s and early 40’s music, you may appreciate that the “true voice” (not Rafi’s, LOL) of a singer was not necessarily recorded. Its something like watching the 30’s videos of Wimbledon matches and declaring that none of the then champions had anything called “movement”. With the kind of recording facilities available then, it was not possible to record the “variety” of songs as technology started unfolding. If Dhaniram and Rafibhakt accuse Saigal of no variety, its as dumbfounded as saying that Naushad could not compose “Break Dance” numbers. The height of immaturity is also clearly reflected by Dhaniram when he says Saigal has been forgotten. Its as if Boral, Pankaj Mallick, et al of those times music are listened by millions and millions today and only Saigal has been forgotten. Even Noorjahan is not listened that frequently. Further, in every other language there were singers in that era of 30’s and 40’s. There have been singers before Ghantasaala in telugu who are not listened today either. To conclude that Ghantasaala is thus better than them is foolish to say the least. Talk of monotony, even Rafi’s first hit song “Yahan badla wafa” is more Saigalish than Rafish. There is no sense of appreciation what these artists put during those times and still they are allowed to be Rafi fans. This is certainly shameful, isn’t it?
Further, to say that the man who sang “Jab dil hi toot gaya” and “So jao rajkumari, so jaa” can’t sing “Guzare hai aaj ishq mein” is pure crap. Like Rafi very well, but to think that this song is “unsingable” is difficult to believe, particularly, when we have thousands of great gazals by Ghulam Ali’s, Mehdi Hassan’s, Jagjit Sing’s, and even Hariharans.
Surely, you can think on your own Anil. For a man who had sung more than 70% of the variety of the songs composed during his peak time, Saigal could also have done justice to the whole lot of songs if he had been given them. Is this not the true extrapolation why Rafi and Kishore fans can very proudly say that their icon would have sung even today’s different styles too?
It is also completely laughable when Dhaniram jokes about Rafi praising Saigal. Its worth of re-pasting again: “well,so far as saigal’s praise by rafi is concerned,it happens when one is struggling and the other is already in his prime.in the initial stages rafi might have even tried to imitate saigal but that proves nothing.” So many things are proved by saying that Mahinder Kapoor to Sonu Nigam imitate Rafi shows Rafi’s greatness, and suddenly becomes useless logic when Rafi imitated Saigal. Also, if what Dhaniram says is correct about Rafi praising Saigal, then Dhaniram is also accusing the great Mohd Rafi of being an OPPORTUNIST, and not the humble guy which everybody else thinks about Rafi sahab. And now please don’t tell me that I am attacking Rafi, its Dhaniram’s own words. So excuse me here.
This was the beginning of all the problems. Now, I will reply each of your recent posts.
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Post No. 1782: “Balarykar,
Thank you for the honest post. It deserves an honest response and here it is.”
Thanks your depth reply. I am sure, this time I won’t need to explain further. Moreover, I will be giving two solutions for the sake of exhaustiveness.
“I still maintain it was in bad taste. If you wanted to put your points across to the hard-core Rafi fans, there were better ways than highlighting (what you thought) were Rafi?s short comings. You appeared to be very rude to Rafi (more than to Rafi fans), I suggest you read it once more and may be you would realise it. And all the negative points which you raised about Rafi are not the ones that may be called proven truths.”
Like it has already been told earlier by myself and Arghya and others, you missed and continue to miss the “IF” part. Now, I have clearly told you how Rafibhakt and Dhaniram botched it severely vis-a-vis Saigal. Come to think of it. I am a die-hard SPB fan on a Kishore site defending Saigal on attacks from so-called Rafi fans. If you still miss the irony, I can’t help you. You “believe” Rafibhakt and Dhaniram are Rafi fans, and my contention all the while has been they are NOT Rafi fans. Today the word “fans” has become very light contextualised. Otherwise, fan being abbreviation of “fanatic” there is nothing such as hard-core fans. A fan is somebody, who by definition, is hard core. The negative points raised about Rafi are certainly which can’t be proven as truth by me (despite putting across only for shamenatics) and false by you (despite being a fanatic). So, there we go again.
“Personally, I didn’t find the posts you mentioned disgusting or stinking. The two posters didn?t try to pose for authorities in music and they were not abusive or disrespectful.”
Its not necessary that to be disgusting or stinking one has to be abusive. Remember, how smilingly your boss denies you the increment and the HR lady the leave, while all along giving increments and leaves to undeserving employees. And if you still maintain they were not disrespectful to Saigal, I on my part wont’ argue any further with you.
“They said Rafi, for them, is a greater singer than Saigal. One of them also said, Rafi should be called the father of Hindi playback singing and not Saigal.”
“for them”? Who are they? Was the question asked to them? Leave it, I am interested in the second part here.
“Father” was never an option, “Father-in-law” always was :D. Being with scientists, let me tell you that they don’t believe in this father-mother game. Thats another story. Having said that, if some idiot/moron/shamenatic/ignorant says that Einstein should be called father of physics than Newton because of his superior contribution is laughable, and such falsity rumour mongers are also stopped by those very non-believing scientists. Once, somebody has been accepted, its the end of it. Let me make it even simple. Just because a lollypop kid believes that his father is “Father”, the father can’t be his own father, that person is actually grand-father. If this very basic reasoning is difficult for them to accept Saigal as father of playback singing, surely we should get them another lollypop, and not argue over their “father” as universal father for the sake of their opinion.
“How can these posts be any more disgusting than certain posts by people who called themselves as trained musicians calling Rafi a ‘crooner without dimension’ and trying their best to show that Rafi is pretty ordinary (and showy) in ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’ and a lot of assorted stuff. You can see it for yourself in this thread itself, if you want.”
For sure these posts are disgusting. I don’t know if you are referring to Surajit Bose. I tried to follow those posts long time back. From what I remember clearly, those debates have not yet concluded like what it seems ours too won’t. I can reckon though that Surajit Bose was clear on what he wrote and did argue out technically. It would be better if you can clearly take the names of the posters who called Rafi those terms just as I am point-blankly tell its “RafiBhakht” and “Dhaniram”. Btw, what do you have to say about the “True Voice” thread where the original writer completely disrespects all the south Indian singers (wholesale, from BMK to KJY to SPB to Chitra) just to prove that Rafi is better?
“None of the Rafi fans ‘blasted’ or ‘ripped apart’ any singer here more than these musicians (?) did with Rafi.”
I see that you are still in denial. Please :(((((
“And none of the so-called ‘true music lovers’ had anything to post in protest (though I have to admire Arghya especially for not joining with them in all their aguments). If you don’t find it an example of ‘double-standards’, then I have nothing more to say on this.”
If you go back year-and-a-half earlier, you will find quite a few of my protests right in this forum. Though a few were not posted just like the other way moderators at mohdrafi.com gave Sandeep Nadkarni a complete free hand. There is not any doubt as to its certainly that Sandeep Nadkarni is one-of-the-so-called Rafi fan.
“You think SPB is a far greater devotional (and semi-classical) singer than Rafi. Dhaniramji and Rafibhaktji think Rafi is greater in many aspects of singing than Saigal. Why do you want to make a big fuss about their stance only? What you think is the truth and what Rafi fans think is “stinking”?”
Hmmmmmm!!! Where did I say I think that way? I had just brought to light when you were attempting to show that Rafi can sing both classical and filmy songs whereas KJY classical and SPB filmy. The way you posted, it gives an impression to those who don’t know SPB that SPB can’t sing classical and devotional. This also made me think that you are not really familiar with SPBs career. Please clarify if you know. Numerically and longevity terms, SPB has sung quite too many devotional songs. I am not sure if this conveys my thought about SPB as better than Rafi. So I will rest my case about your comparisons of my post with theirs. Let the people interpret the way they feel is correct.
“No, I didn’t trash either Kishore or SPB. You are actually quoting out of context. I was trying to show the lacuna in your line of argument.”
Fine, and neither did I attack Rafi. Rest, your interpretation.
“You were trying to show that since Rafi couldn’t do a difficult song which Yesu Das sang ultimately, Rafi isn’t such a great singer. I was simply extending that logic to the case of Kishore and SPB. If you go through my post, you will find that I specifically mentioned that if one applies this logic, one would reach ‘wrong’ conclusions. That Kishore and SPB are no great shakes as singers is the ‘wrong conclusion’. I hope you got it. I also hope Arghya also got it. For your information, I never tried to belittle Kishore, SPB or any singers here. I have posted my opinions about Kishore?s voice, his style, his vocal range et al, but all those comments were prefixed by ‘in my opinion’, ‘to my ears’ etc. I’m no authority on music and I have always made it clear in my posts, especially when remarking something about Kishore and his singing here in this site.”
See, Dhaniram declared that Saigal can’t sing some Rafi songs even in his dreams. Its after such uncharacteristic remark that I had to dig a song which if they listen will know that Rafi can’t sing certainly (of course they won’t admit). However, I am 90% sure that you have listened to this “Shadaj ne paaya ye vardan”. Its a different matter RJ approached Rafi first and then Hemant Kumar too. There is a reason why Rafi did not accept this song, which you know all too well. Infinte times we have seen KK fans being told of “no-classical” songs, and Dhaniram even reported this about Saigal. So, though you saw I applied “this logic”, you failed to notice it when used by Rafi fans.
Like you say you have not trashed KK or SPB, it can be accepted if you read our part of the story.
“The Jayachandran incident requires some narration, I shall do it some other time.
The RJ-Rafi-KK and Rafi-SPB-KJY scenarios were meant (only) to show Rafi’s all-round strength. I didn’t try to project that Rafi is greater than Kishore/ SPB because of his ability to do raga-based songs better or Rafi is greater than KJY because he could do fast/light numbers better.”
There is a reason why I said that if you have not listened to Kishore’s Rabindranath sangeet songs, its not KK fans problem. If you had listened, you would certainly that KK was no lesser a all-rounder. If Rafi is Kapil Dev, KK is Ian Botham, SPB is Imran Khan, etc, etc.
“I just wanted to say Rafi could do it all and that was an edge he enjoyed. And I wouldn’t dare utter a word against KJY (a singer I adore) even when pitted against Rafi and I am extremely grateful to RJ for introducing KJY’s enormous talent to HFM. Hope to continue later in the day”
If I have to ever give the all-rounder mantle to two people, it will be Manna Dey and SPB. If its hindi language only, then Rafi.
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Post No. 1792: “”I see I haven’t made myself clear. I wasn’t speaking about any particular period, I was speaking about THAT SONG WHICH I THOUGHT YOU LINKED and I think I have to do a bit of explanation. For that song, RJ went to Rafi first and Rafi’s response was something like “I can?t sing this one in my life time”. My question was why RJ didn’t consider the Kishore (or any other popular HFM singer) option.
RJ preferred KJY over Rafi not because Rafi couldn’t sing semi-classicals ‘after 45’, infact Rafi was singing his old semi-classical gems in his live shows as well as he ever did. There are many reasons- for one RJ was very fond of KJY, for another he wasn’t doing too many big banner films. It was just that, despite his huge admiration for Rafi, RJ couldn’t work with Rafi much (just as he wasn’t able to work with Lataji much during ’70s/ early ’80s).
Hope to continue later”
What Rafi said here is certainly true, and this song was also declined by Hemant Kumar. Of course, among Kishore and Rafi 90% of the people who can compose such songs will approach Rafi only, and so did RJ. Yes, I too know that Rafi sung all those classical songs in concerts. However, we have seen that though there were few classical songs in 70’s, they didn’t go even a fraction of the proportion what Rafi used to get in 50’s and 60’s. Why? How? I really don’t have answer.
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Post No. 1793: “Let me ask you what do you think of the Ghantasala fans who consider their idol to be superior to everyone else who ever sang in India or the Kishore fans who invents all sorts of theories to prove Kishore>/= Rafi”
I have really answered this in my previous post. Did not I say this: “However, if and when certain Rafi fans point out the so-called fallibility, short-comings, etc of other singers, and IF similar things are true about Rafi, I will certainly point out them without any hesitation. This is not just for Rafi fans, but for each and every artists fans.”
“Genuinely hilarious but You don’t seem to have fully caught what I wanted to convey (my fault surely, I didn’t express it well) though you’ve reached the conclusion, more or less, I wanted you to.
See, when I mentioned this incident, I didn’t want to show that many MDs like Rafi sahab and therefore Rafi is great. What I wanted to say is that people, even well established ones, do have their favorites, many of them are very passionate about them and many of them make no secret of it. So, when someone says his favorite is untouchable or greater than someone who’s considered an icon, there is no need to jump up and cry out ‘balsphemy’, stone him. You don’t have to religiously accept what Anand said and that’s what I myself wanted to say. Similarly you don’t have to make much hue and cry over what two fans of Rafi sahab said about their idol. If you are still in that mood you might have to go to your Guruji’s house and protest over his remarks like ‘none can sing ‘kal raat zindagi se mulaqat’. the way Rafisahab did or Rafisahab was so good with ‘ehsaan tera hoga’. that Lataji couldn’t match up. You can also not blame some Rafians for giving you a piece of their mind for declaring that “Rafi’s 1000 bhajans wouldn’t even approach a single ‘sivasthuthy’ of SPB”.
May be more later.”
Let me clarify one more time. With SPB fans I am only more harsher on them, and with SPB even more. In the SPB fans yahoo group a fan posted a SPB remark. SPB apparently said that its unfair that P. Susheela and S. Janaki are called as south Indian Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosle respectively. I for one strongly agree with this and support his statement. However, SPB seems to have went further and also said that LM and AB should be called PS and SJ of north respectively. This was applauded by most SPB fans. However, I objected to the latter part of the remark. It brings the comparison back to square one, which can’t be the purpose of an argument. This reply of mine completely silenced all those noise-makers. So be assured that I don’t have double-standards.
There is absolutely no similarity between Anands remark and so-called Rafi/Ghantasaala/KK/SPB fans remarks. Anands remark shows his devotion to Rafi and the remainings antipathy to other artists is what has been reflected.
About Rafi fans giving a piece of their mind for “Sivasthuthi” remark? Why, why, why, you forget the context? That was when you were not clear “or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se”. This was also earlier preceeded by “Saigal can’t sing like Rafi” saga. So they are welcome to give their piece of mind. I will throw the complete brain at them. For sure, you don’t have an answer to what was also further said. Where is that Rafi devotional album which sees at the least 4-5 versions each year for over twenty answer? Where is that Rafi devotional album equivalent of Ghantasaala’s “Bhagwad Geetha”? Can you answer them?
Back to the first sentence of this post. In that fab jugalbandi, there comes a point when Mehmood says “Ye ghoda chatura, ghoda chatura, kya be? yaa to ghoda bolo, ya chatura. Gaa” So either accept that Saigal was attacked or be happy that Rafi was not attacked. No both ways please 🙂
1813 – rafi fan
Thanks for your post to me, SAIGAL had achieved in a little time frame with limited songs, which rafi achieved in a larger time frame with larger number of songs. Such achievement cannot be matched by anyone in Hindi film music. Kindly do not put your views out of your liking for rafi (only) which I respect.
1815 – Were you talking about the telugu duet of ghantasala and suseela. It is a very meldious velvet smooth number, melodious than sau saal baad, sure and again your views, are not acceptable to me on this particular song, sau saal , which is surely melodious to hear, but the telugu one is equally great.
1814 – You yourself agree on the monarchy of ghantasala. Do you seriously think that such singer can create monarchy for 3 decades in a film industry, if he rolled out or such industry rolled out only classical songs for so many decades. Unless such singer is a creative versatile genius in “playback singing which encompasses various types of genres and not only classical” can he achieve such kingly status without competition (as you agree yourself). The correct point would be ghantasala was excellently and perfectly fit and successful in southern industry as rafi was for hindi. Even rafi had literally failed in southern industry, and this point you have always to keep in mind, especially when discussion is made about telugu songs and southern industry (e.g. post 1815, which is in poor taste) since non telugu people do not possess much knowledge on the industry, its culture and language. At least the background and the status which was enjoyed by the singer should always be kept in mind while penning comments (1815 again) My view was if you see only from southern industry point of view, ghantasala perfetly appears superior, and might be from hindi industry point of view, if you only look (as you currently are doing) rafi may appear superior (though you still admit ghantasala to be superior in some genres which is however a fact). Another point, I do not know perhaps you are aware or not that ghantasala was a versatile music director besides being a “accomplished playback singer” and poet as well, which places him above rafi as a musician, if you take the talent as whole for a musician – for sure, ghantasala appears to be more versatile as a musician than rafi – this is my view. BTW rafi is undoubtedly one of my favourites along with kishore in hindi. so nothing much to worry on that.
Rafi fan – 1814
This post is a better post – you accept the facts – my appreciations as you reciprocate correctly – vis – a – vis your post 1815.
1815 – rafi fan
A joker post, i should put. Who said the telugu song is not melodious – it is indeed very melodious, velvet smoot voice. Your post clearly shows your subjective likes to prove sau saal baad pehle in a different range (sure, which is a melodious song though telugu number is no way inferior and pleasant to hear for sure)
Further rafi fan ji, one more point, sri rajeswara rao was trained in hindusthani as well as carnatic music, and he learnt hindusthani music from none other than “SAIGAL” and this should put a rest over your apprehensions of the exemplary and superior composition skills of Mr. Rao. Kindly just try to analyse facts, before writing posts, this is my sincere kind request to you.
Rafi fan – 1815
Do you know the telugu song chelikaadu (by ghantasala and suseela) was composed by the greatest southern music director S Rajeswara rao, who never liked & was satisfied with any playback singer with the sole exception of ghantasala, who alone could do justice to rajeswara rao’s compositions in a way he liked. The music director’s compositions are so tough that once SPB stated that whenever there was a chance to just try to sing with rajeswara rao, I used to get fever, because compositions of rajeswara rao are of that type. For such type of composition, you have passed such a simple comment – saul saal baad pehle is superior – definitely not in any way. Even the classical great Balamuralikrishna’s songs – S Rajeswara Rao was not satisfied – such a music director he was.
Coming to chelikadu song – a typical experiment of Mohana and kalyani ragas (in which rajeswara rao was special) the song is a great melodious song and ghantasala creates the magic melodious effect in the song. Sau saal baad pehle is equally good, but not in any way near the composition of the telugu number. And needless to say SJ’s compositions are quite easier as compared to ALL of S Rajeswara Rao’s compositions – perhaps this you are not aware and i advise you to kindly know about this greatest music director of south (before whom NTR and other great actors used to stand – rather forget about sitting – the producers used to take a song only when Sri rao used to give it and once he composes a song – it is a definite hit – there are no failures in any of the rajeswara rao’s songs in his life – that is this greatest music director) and Rafi fan hope you might have now realised what mistake you have done by making a comment on a exemplary music director.
Rafi fan sahab – 1815
These are the type of discussions which are called as insensible.
I do know what is your level of knowledge of music.
I have heard both the songs sau saal baad pehle of rafi sahab (this song can be sung even by a street lad easily ) there is no difficulty in that. I am sure, even you can sing the song.
the song chelikadu of ghantsala sahab is definitely a superior composition (the two ma swars have been used the rag and is a rare experiment in the song) and difficult to sing – specially the like of mohan kalyan rag effects – and is certainly melodious to create the correct effects of the rag- no doubt in that at all. The voice is surely melodious and smooth enough which is a must for rendition of mohan kalyan rag and coarse voices are not fit for such rags and music directors do not prefer voices such as coarse type for such type of songs. You are absolutely wrong rafi fan sahab.
Kindly desist from making biased comments to prove your likes and subjective views.
why feud?
Both website is sisters to eachother in hamara forum…For even if we log in for Rafi sahab still link to kishore da is always open and same is with kishore da`s fan club they always can link to mohd rafi dot com…So, its more than enough now,as Just think for a moment everyone ,u know it was in 40s when both these legends came to film however for kishore da late decade of 70s and 80s r mainly memorable, Its been 70 years now! and lets help newer generation to understand golden era of music.
its my last post here,until this thread feud doesn`t end and new thread of love and appriciation doesn`t start, so, i`m dropping two songs for friends here of rafi sahab. One is Rap song,that Rafi sahab has sung for Raj kapoor ji and other is a non filmi gazhal(most of them came in late 70s) in a typical gazhal style that in later decades were followed by singers like ghulam ali,mehndi hassan etc.
Rap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXeljKblIMU
ghazal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GfwCm2KFAc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLU1PEku6Z0
Punjabi sad song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixQdfzgJMwQ
Bhojpuri song of first bhojpuri film(must listen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PreTXwatoQ
As it is my last post, and also few days ago we had durga Puja, I`m giving,link to u these three songs sung by Rafi sahab in late 70s, one for Maa(mother)…and other two are Bhajan,the prayers to durga maa,lets be pure in name of God…God bless you all,Bye!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g56ozU1PmHc (maa hai mohabbat ka naam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3oKsI3qgRw (jag tere charno me aayo bholi maa)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rFiTbd4MyI ( a muslim singing bhjan with such a devotion ,a lesson to huminty—( jyota waliye, laata waliye, maa tere darbar)……..
hi ravi,
“(this song appears more melodious velvet soft than the rafi number, you can check, both in voice as well as composition)”
i did hear that song before but i appreciate you taking the time to share it again. i genuinely regret that i cannot agree with you. i imagine that it must be a burden for you to generously take the trouble to share songs but the other side still does not further agree with you (i mean this sincerely – no sarcasm or ill will). nevertheless, it is equally a burden for me to see some ghantasala fans ignore important aspects of a rafi – ghantasala discussion but focus only on classically rigorous music and speak of them as the end all (which they are not).
so i thank you very much for extending beyond just classically rigorous songs and getting to the songs i care for the most. here i will give you something that i don’t consider subjective but rather objective. you will not agree with me but i respect your different conclusion.
there are certain, desirable properties of voices that can be objectively measured. kind of like measuring the texture of materials as engineers do.
after i heard (for the 5th time) that ghantasala duet you linked and then “sau saal pehle”…it is objectively clear to me that Rafi’s voice is indeed more velvet smooth than ghantasala’s. ghantasala’s voice (and forgive me if i offend) is coarse and wiry (this is not an insult but a description of the texture of his voice) compared to rafi’s. with the above properties in mind, rafi has a far more filmier voice than ghantasala. rafi’s voice is far superior than ghantasala’s when it comes to filmy songs like “sau saal pehle”. IT ISN’T EVEN CLOSE. it is for these reasons also that rafi was more successful than mannade.
we accept the unfortunate reality that not every human being is given equal or similar talent. rafi was blessed with a filmier voice than ghantasala. ghantasala’s technical skills and mastery would do little for him to edge rafi’s renditions of filmy songs like “dil pukaare aare aare”. ghantasala’s coarse voice was poorly suited for such songs. ghantasala, like mannade, never even had a chance in these kinds of songs against a singer like mohammed rafi. this is not subjective but objective (and believe it or not i do know the difference).
i will stamp this with dhani ram’s quote which i strongly agree with…
There are many and there were many in Rafi’s time also who could sing classical songs very well.But they didn’t have Rafi’s mellifluous voice that swept the nation and continues to make waves even now.”
what is indeed subjective is my belief that Shankar Jaikishan’s composition “sau saal pehle” is a superior composition.
anyway, (perhaps to the joy of some who resent my views and find them grossly flawed :)), as much as i enjoy these discussions (and i do), they tend to be a bit time consuming and so i’ll have to return later :). i’d much rather talk music in person person while enjoying good music & coca cola but that’ll be for another day.
hi raj,
“So you have to accept that as rafi was to hindi industry so was ghantasala for the southern industry and sure as Mr. Krishna says here they were pillars of indian film singing.”
Of course I accept this. Always did! But I also think the two industries call for different singers who have different strengths and weaknesses.
“ghantasala ruled like a colossus for 3 decades in his industry without any competition, even rafi did not had that stature – I hope you have to keep this in mind while discussing and comparing great legends.”
The comparison isn’t valid because the two industries had different dynamics. Besides, it was a good thing Kishore Kumar had a surge in popularity in December 1969 because I like to have variety. The RD Burman – Kishore Kumar numbers from 1970 – 1974 were pure magic (sadly Kishore too became inconsistent after his heart attack). Besides, Rafi still sang a lot of great numbers in the 70s (although due to his ailing health there are quite a few songs that did not have the same effect for me). If I understand correctly, Ghantasala left for his heavenly abode in 1974. What’s most telling to me is that Rafi & Ghantasala sang great songs for as long as they were alive.
“It is not easy to enjoy such type of kingly status, unless the artist possesses some distinctive and creative skills”
Absolutely, I strongly agree with this.
“all of your other views on rafi stands purely subjective especially when comparisons come with other established legends.”
i agree with your general sentiments. this is also why we have endless debates amongst fans. i also don’t think it has to do with one set of fans being disagreeable etc. the fans of rafi or kishore encompass very, very large groups of people with many different personalities. it would be naive to try to generalize such large, encompassing groups. a few websites are a drop in the bucket.
i notice that when some try to be “objective” they either give incomplete conclusions (i.e. talking only about a single genre and incorrectly generalizing it) or reach illogical conclusions (i.e. rafi praised ghantasala but ghantasala did not so ghantasala is better).
Hi Kishorefan,
I am going to refer to your discussion Siva Sankari and the Laila Majnu songs. The most remarkable trait about the song from Siva Sankari is its technical rigor (which you have emphasized). The most remarkable trait about “Barbaad E Mohabbat” is its profound, majestic expression of emotions. classical rigor can be learned and practiced (but it does take immense talent in the highest degrees of success). rafi’s expression of emotions and filmy voice are not something that can be as easily learned or practiced but are inimitable gifts of god. so one could say, in very simplistic terms, the argument that kishore fans often incorrectly apply to rafi and that is: one singer can trained and practiced whereas the other singer renders songs that are inimitable and a product of god-given talent. rafi’s songs were inimitable and the product of god given talent. of course there are singers who can do justice to rafi’s songs like “barbaad e mohabbat” but they are born rarely and possess god given talent.
outlier songs of Rafi (less than 100 out of 5,000) and act as that is the norm. They fail to acknowledge that for 99% of the songs Rafi sang, he had control of sur for that song as any other singer could.
“hindi singers like rafi get more attention and applause than regional singers like ghantasala.”
Yes, life isn’t fair (and sadly only the end result matters), but Rafi deserves his praise & attention.
“there is a singer better than rafi, that is ghantasala”
For what? Classically rigorous songs? Sure.
For filmy sad songs, filmy romantic songs, OP Nayyar songs, Shankar Jaikishan songs? Not even close. Mohammed Rafi is incomparably superior and this I will get to later and mention an aspect that indeed free of opinion but objective.
“The fact that Lata Mangeshkar preferred to sing the suvarna sundari song with ghantasala instead of rafi, after finding rafi struggling in rehearsals, clearly shows who is supreme and incomparable.”
It certainly shows that Ghantasala was supreme for songs like “Kuhu Kuhu” but nothing more! Let’s not overgeneralize that.
“They neednot listen to all songs sung by these two greats and if they keenly listen to some of the best songs sung by them , they can easily know who is the best.”
Exactly – and that would be Rafi – for the songs that I care for and that are indeed supreme, timeless, evergreen works of art. I’d rather listen to “Tere Ghar Ke Samne” or “Teri Zulfon Se Judaai To Nahi Maanghi Thi” than songs of Siva Sankari. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It is subjective but certainly within reason.
“I just pity them.”
Don’t be so generous! Your pity is not needed 🙂
“The fans of both legends say that ghantasala is easily the greatest ever produced by India”
No “they” don’t.
I strong agree with the following quote from Dhani Ram: “There are many and there were many in Rafi’s time also who could sing classical songs very well.But they didn’t have Rafi’s mellifluous voice that swept the nation and continues to make waves even now.” He states the crux of the matter in a nutshell that Ghantasala fans deliberately ignore. Each to his own 🙂
Hi Sastry,
I have read Mr. Vitthal’s posts and have heard the songs. Yes, they support the notion of Ghantasala’s superiority in technically rigorous songs but do not go beyond that which is what I’m interested in.
“note that ghantasala had rendered these genres in thousands, (SONGS ARE REALLY NOTHING BEFORE THIS GENRE IN PLAYBACK SINGING – YOU CAN CONFIRM THIS FROM ALL ESTABLISHED MUSICIANS i cannot hear anybody after hearing ghantasala in those genres.”
Can you also please get experts to tell me…what i think is the tastiest food and what my favorite color should be? I respect those padhyams for the great art that they are. Nevertheless, your conclusion is just too far fetched. We music lovers have rightful freedom to choose which songs matter to us or that we value the most. Of course, boundaries of reason applies in comparisons.
If this is how you feel, then I’m glad we cleared up the crux of the matter. You think one genre is the end all whereas I think other genres have their own, incomparable, niche values and are a matter of taste. I hold greater value for songs like “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai” or “Suhana Safar Aur Yeh Mausam Haseen” than a classical song. Some may pity me for my selection but I’m quite content and that’s all that matters.
Hi Sandeep,
“saigal had created an influence with hardly 200 songs which rafi had to achieve by singing some thousands of songs.”
Rafi achieved tremenndous influence with relatively few songs, nevermind 1000. This is why I always resent the “record # of songs” debates. Quality counts – not quantity. I dont’ care if Asha Bhonsel has sung 12,000 songs or 1,000 songs. It’s the quality that matters. He just happened to sing 5000+ songs but he didn’t need them all for his influence (in fact, may have done better with fewer).
Furthermore, you are comparing apples & oranges. I cannot claim much knowledge of Saigal but I assume he rightfully deserves his praise because he was an idol for the greats that would succeed him like Kishore Kumar. That counts for something. He set a trend and paved the way for future playback artists and it needed only 200 for that. He could have sang more if his alcoholism didn’t end his life early but 200 or 2000, it would not have altered the funademental effect for Saigal, Rafi, Kishore, etc.
There are a lot of songs of Rafi & Kishore that I sort through and quickly skip. But the several hundred, supreme, out of the world songs that they have rendered, is all that I require.
I don’t think that your above comparison is either logical or true.
seems like the prior post got truncated so i continue…
So then they point to a few select, outlier songs of Rafi (…
(
Hi Balaykar,
“I, for one, don’t remember quality devotional songs of Rafi in the 70’s. PLEASE post me the list of quality devotional songs which you think he sang.”
I don’t want to compare SPB & Rafi as I am a big fan of both and believe that they were both supreme in their ways. Also, there are a lot of qualities of Rafi I love that I also find in SPB. I was watching a youtube clip where SPB is at a casual gathering with friends and he sings “Mere Mehboob Tujhe”. Just like Rafi, he sang from the heart and had beautiful expressions.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find the recent SPB bhajans you cited. I’ll hear it another day but I have no doubt that it is stellar. You point out SPB singing a great bhajan 35 years later whereas you don’t recall the same for Rafi. In my humble opinion, your comparison has a confounding factor that makes your point somewhat flawed. Although I care for what actually happened (nevermind the whys), I do want to explain a why in this matter. The confounding factor here is health. SPB is still in great health (and I hope this is true for at least another 20 years) whereas Mohammed Rafi was in very poor health during his last years which no doubt affected his renditions and he died of a serious heart attack at the age of 55 (but he lives on through his immortal voice). I think if he was in better health and lived longer, he would have even better met your criteria. Nevertheless, I will share with you two of my favorite Rafi bhajans from the 70s. I’m sure you’ve heard them before (and probably were not impressed). The first one is at the beginning of the decade “Sukh Ke Sab Saath” and the second is at the end of the decade “Tu Ne Mujhe Bulaya Sherawaliyon”.
I will not try to “compare” quality especially because bhajans have so many sub genres. There’s the high pitched bhajan, the deep voice bhajan, the classically rigorous bhajan, etc. Each of these sub categories have their niche. Nevertheless, I will try to attest to the quality of these songs with my own personal story. When I was a naive child I found bhajans to be boring. Kishore Kumar’s fast, animated songs were much more fun to listen to. A naive child may not be admirable for his knowledge of music but he sure is an unbiased, independent 🙂 But when I heard the two bhajans of Mohammed Rafi that I shared with you – they melted my heart. They had an impact for me, even before I knew who Mohammed Rafi was, that no other devotional song had before. From this point of view, I think very highly of Rafi’s devotionals. Even in “Tu Ne Mujhe Bulaya Sherawalyion”, it is clear that Rafi’s voice is not what it used to be (still good). But Rafi was a multi-facetted genius – he fully compensated by his supreme expression of emotions coming straight from the heart that continues to have impact on new listeners today.
Anyway, I just wanted to share those two songs with you as examples of bhajans from the 70s that I liked. I know I’m at loss here but my favorite bhajans are the ones that are simple, have a beautiful voice, and natural expressions of emotions. Rafi fits that mold extremely well for me personally. I’m sure SPB would too.
Hi Bhattacharya,
“I have seen many times – rafi not rendering certain genres rendered by ghantashala”
Yes, but I have seen many times Ghantasala not rendering certain genres rendered by Mohammed Rafi. And frankly, the genres rendered by Rafi but not Ghantasala just so happen to be the genres that I value the most. There is nothing wrong at all for me to enjoy a soft romantic number versus a classically rigorous song that the “experts” care for.
“Ghantasala fans know and understand not only Telugu but also Hindi and they admire both Ghantasala and Rafi. Therefore, ghantasala fans are better judges than rafi fans”
I have previously stated why I don’t agree with this. Furthermore, the Ghantasala fans have yet to prove that they are indeed the better judges. They keep harping on Ghantasala’s technical skills but fail to acknowledge that this factor has its limitations in application and that there are other qualities to look for in a singer (where Rafi has an edge). Then they tell me that control of sur is fundamental, comes first and foremost AND I STRONGLY AGREE with that. So then they point to a few select, outlier songs of Rafi (
Dear brother(or sister) 1803, I don`t know whose fan u r, rafi sahab, kishore da or ghantashalaji…
But sharing with u and every friends here, two of Rafi sahab`s bangla song in reponse to urs Kishore da`s number only for the sake of appriciation not envy or war!
one song is in bangla,greatly sung by Rafi sahab with all melody,all those friends here who can understand bengali can feel the purity here, (tomader ashirbade, the best line I feel is aami tomar bandhu, amai bhule jayeo na)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3liSHZVEuA
Now another song, this is a masterpiece,real genious, this is not Bangla but in background of bangla dialouges and is in hindi ,but Rafi sahab sang it so superbly that it become universal beyond all the language barrier… “sabhi kuch lutakad”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo8jntJpF8U
Lets be friend,out of all the feud!
here is one more gift,a song of Rafi sahab to our brothers who r Kishore da`s fan(and love Kishore da`s ham bewafa), Please listen and feel the heart……. “Main bewafa nahi ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SagD_A9r8o
Paramjeet sahab,
Aapne hamara nam le liya. Shukriya sahab. Aaapke points pure valid hai aur ham sehmat hai aapke visleshan se. You are a balanced music lover and please accept my best wishes in this regard.
Nothing much to say about some rafi sahab fans, who argue without listening carefully and write without reasoning, on the points of other writers. (even I had to argue with some people in mohdrafi.com and I withdrew from arguing against such futile arguments) Anyhow, I do not wish to pen much, as this futile arguments of some rafi fans, has, strictly speaking no essence.
A bare truth to be noted is that despite some rafi sahab fans trying to project rafi as superhuman or versatile in all genres etc. etc. that cannot place rafi sahab in any way above the level in which actuallly he was and as already re-iterated many times, the command wise & control over musical notes, depth wise, presentation wise and flexibility voice wise, switching of notes, ability to sustain extreme high notes quite comfortably, melody wise and strong voice factor etc. (which are sina qua non for a “unique” singer) – ghantasala sahab had a clear cut far edge over rafi sahab – there is not even a inch of doubt in that. One may believe this or not – especially some rafi fans (and I am sure any musician will fully agree for this) – & it is left to their own “wisdom” and I have nothing further to say much on that (this I have stated many times).
ON KISHORE KUMAR SAHAB, I AM WRITING FIRST TIME ON KISHORE SAHAB, PARAMJEET SAHAB
Regarding kishore kumar sahab, paramjeet sahab, I frankly wish to state that he was a singer of a different type, I mean who could create attractiveness from commercial style, which is of course required for filmy popularity and this kishore sahab has achieved in his career. I can confirm that, though kishore sahab, cannot be discussed on similar terms with some of the classical filmy greats, but sure I would like to say one thing, kishore sahab’s songs are quite attractive and when one hears kishore sahab’s songs, they appear nice and which prompts one to hear his songs for many more times. In Hindi films, He was a special singer (with a bit of voice more dynamic – punch wise, than rafi sahab), greatly appreciated and liked by even classical musicians (including me). This is the reason, why many also prefer kishore sahab over rafi sahab.
It is not a surprise that balanced music lovers like vitthal sahab, arghya sahab etc. have closed their posts, due to futile bickerings here and due to such reasons even in mohdrafi.com many balanced music lovers have stopped writing. Even I too do not write much, even if questions are addressed to me, as many people do not understand things correctly and I feel it is a waste to argue with “such” people who put up futile arguments.
1803 – rafi fan
As desired, purely filmy romantic, Here is a song for you, which is already shared here, it is in the similar genre and like of sau saal baad pehle, which you shared. The song starts at 0.44 onwards – just watch the composition and great melody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs&feature=related
(this song appears more melodious velvet soft than the rafi number, you can check, both in voice as well as composition)
MYK Brother, contd….
You were asking me why Vitthal ji had opted out. Well, if you value my view, then I think that despite sensible arguments by Mr. Vitthal – the ghantasala/rafi fan, you are raising replies which actually do not fit into the points raised by Mr. Vitthal, as he confirms in his previous post that “no amounts of discussions can change established facts” . If you read between the lines, this has a direct reference to post 1735 of Vitthal ji in these columns, where he has presented such “established facts”. That is why, he and even Arghya ji too perhaps stop participating. Hope, you take these as my views.
I am sure, Mr. Vitthal and Arghya ji are sensible and nice enough to not to withdraw from this forum only for reasons of arguing against some “rafi fans” and I am confident that they shall continue to share their knowledge here – mainly for the sake of many other music lovers, with whom they have been discussing nicely. I am sure they will be back.
MYK BROTHER,
I might have been a bit too harsh in my previous post, for which my BIG APOLOGIES for that. But, I just wanted to bring out the contradictory statements made by you, which you are again supporting and I again wish to humbly submit that such statements would not befit a rafi fan of your stature, brother. Let us forget about that and discuss in a decent way. Both of us have been carried away.
Anyhow, i would like to plainly disagree with you, when you discuss about laila majnu song with siva sankari. There is a vast difference between both and in my view, siva sankari is a very tough song (technical and otherwise) to be sung by anyone in a single take (as ghantasala did extremely well, which you too agree) and a true rafi fan has to admit that rafi was “simply not” in that league as that of ghantasala. I do not know what is the problem in accepting this true fact. Not only siva sankari, but I have heard other classical filmy songs of ghantasala shared by Vitthal ji here, and again rafi is no where close. Even in semi classical songs, such as suvarna sundari number etc. I hold the same view, that rafi was not simply cut out for those renditions as was ghantasala. Again same is the case with sanskrit renditions such as syamala dandakam of ghantasala, which Vitthal and Satyansh, Srivas etc. used to frequently discuss and ghantasala’s display is in a altogether different league. Definitely, ghantasala stands “special” as singer. I do not know why rafi fans develop apprehensions while accepting the aforesaid genuine facts. Sure rafi might be better than kishore in a way (again a point requiring detailed analysis) if you argue in those type of genres and regarding kishore vs rafi it will be a different topic altogether.
Kishore might not be “specialised” as a singer to be able to render classical filmy songs in a specialised way, but as many have discussed one cannot find any technical flaw in kishores “super voice” and this is what makes kishore a different singer.
Again, sorry to differ with you, you were a bit dismissive (if not fully) about kishore earlier. Would you agree that kishore’s popularity in 70’s was more than rafi’s popularity of 60’s ? This was confirmed by generations of 70’s, to me, that too people living in Mumbai. What would be your valuable comments on such statements by persons who have closely seen kishore and rafi ? Does it not prove what was kishore ? Again would you mind accepting the said great facts about kishore, which are genuinely true ?
Paramjeet ji
Dukhi mat hoyiye. Main samajh sakta hoon ki aap kitne dukhi hue honge un rafi fans ke comments sunke. Jaise murthy ji (1799) kehtey hai, rafi fans ko bahut kam patience hai, woh ladne tak aa jate hai, jab unko rafi ka greatness slip hote hue nazar aata hai. Aap se milke bahut khushi hui is forum me. Best wishes to you paramjeet ji.
1799 – aan murthy
Great post and correct post. You are cent percent correct. A person with true music knowledge and knowledge of both hindi and telugu languages can judge correctly the facts. This is what exactly happening. (only one sided knowledge cannot provide correct conclusions) It is for individuals to decide the truth’s which they know. However, we have utmost respect for all great hindi singers, Mohd rafi, kishore kumar (whose fans are quite balanced than rafi fans – murthy ji) lata and others.
By the way, sorry Vitthal ji had left, Mr. Arghya had left, these both were actual participants on ghantasala’s songs in this forum along with satyansh ji and paramjeet ji. Kishore fan ji, and Raj ji too are other balanced fans.
The highest civilian award – today is bharat ratna. Murthy garu, in 60’s the highest civilian award was padmavibhushan, there was no bharat ratna at that time. The padmavibhushan was directly recommended for the “south indian legend” of legends in those days by the Govt. of A P , but due to politics, only padmashri was given. Thus, no fan of this legend need to worry about the highest civilian award, as it is has already been conferred on the south indian legend from hearts, even by the govt. though on paper it is not shown. That is all, which will not make any difference.
1803 – rafi fan
Nice to observe your frank comments. Many songs, purely filmy and not classical, have been shared in this columns by Mr. Vitthal, why do not you read those posts and enjoy the songs. My advise is not to land in comparison again.
Bhattacharya,
You don’t know me, so don’t pass judgements on me or anyone else here (whom you do not know). What you are passing off as comments (hogwash), has been discussed so many times that its nothing new, which is why I refrain from commenting or debating in this topic. Nothing will come out of it. Rafi’s superiority and the talents of others have already been proven, nothing more can be said or debated. It’s only Kishore fans here who spew venom everytime they hear the name of Rafi or other singers. I wonder why ?. Add to that, Ghantasala who figures less elsewhere in discussions, pops out of no where by his fans. Indeed a great comedy.
The LM song is one of many countless songs that have been appreciated by classical musicians that I know, if you don’t like it or don’t agree, then that’s your choice. I doubt Ghantasala would have been able to do as much justice to Jaidev’s composition. On the other hand, I feel no one would have done as much justice to Siva Sankari as Ghantasala. I don’t really care what you think, by your comments you have proven you are just like all others here (with the exception of a few), who cannot tolerate any other comments. You have absolutely no sense of music, so just stick to your own views, and life will be good for you. Also, don’t associate any comments that I did not make, with me.
Rafi-fan, I have stopped now as this thread is useless. I would urge you to do the same. If you want, just read the verbal abuse that goes on by the frequent members here, and move on.
ref 1753
Hi Vitthal,
Can you please give me a single fact I stated that was incorrect or a single fact within my posts that I incorrectly ignored?
Anyway, let’s just enjoy the good music. Here are two of my favorite songs. One by Rafi the other by Kishore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HinFn8DWSo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXqxtyx3ZW8
I know I’m at loss here, but I don’t particularly enjoy classically rigorous songs. I enjoy simpler film songs more. Can you give me songs of Ghantasala that do not display classical rigor (like the Siva Sankari song) but are just simple and filmy as the above two songs? I don’t ask this to prove or disprove who is better but merely for my own education and for the enjoyment of songs I like. I value the discovery of new songs more than any other kind of musical knowledge. I think if a fan has heard a lot of songs and he speaks from the heart than he is plenty knowledgeable! 🙂
paramjeet & satyansh,
i was speaking hypothetically but i did write unclearly. my exact line was this: “When I see something that I consider drivel, I ignore it”
i did not say that i did in fact see drivel – i did not – but i am not to judge anyway. apologies for the confusion 🙂
satyansh does feel otherwise.
as i am a rafi fan, myk’s words are music to my ears 🙂
It is surprising that Rafi fans are being questioned for being on this forum.I am afraid this question has been raised without much application of mind.
Rafi fans are not gatecrashers.They are here by the right of invitation.Look at the title of this forum.Rafi’s name figures first.Do you understand now why we are here?
Paramjeet
I don’t feel like responding to your rant.I have no appetite for engaging in a slanging match with anybody.My first two comments were on Sehgal,a film singer and I didn’t say anything derogatory to any of the participants in the debate.But then in your screed,you used the foulest language for me.I don’t understand by what right.
Sehgal, like any other singer, is not a private individual .He is in the public domain.While he gets bouquets from some,he can get brickbats from others .This is the liberty that we need if we are to advance our understanding of any form of art.And,let me tell you,that an artist who is extolled in a particular period,may be dismissed as worthless in another.In the free market of ideas,no restrictions can be placed on criticism of any artist or art form,however severe this criticism may appear to some acolytes.We are not liviing in a Stalinist regime where people are to be sent to concentration camps for thinking freely.Mahatma Gandhi is the father of our nation and yet he has many critics.Therefore,Paramjeet, learn some basic lessons in tolerance of views that are not palatable to you.You are not a repository of all wisdom.All of us who spend our time in discussions of music here love it.Otherwise we would not be wasting our time.None of us here is idle.And some of us may be holding very high positions in some public spheres.So don’t call others morons and so on.Nobody is a moron here.All are quite intelligent and they are expressing their views accorging to their tastes and lights.Some may be better qualified than the others and this is how the world is. And despite the fierceness of the debate sometimes,it is a learning process.But,of course,you have all the knowledge in the world and nobody should say anything without seeking your permission.Look at the words you used in reaction to my first post–muhn kala and all that filth.In my response to your post, I was still respectful to you but you continued to snarl and I still didn’t react but when others joined in the chime I had to.
Without understanding the thrust of my argument,you are harping on gandharv.You are not addressing the issue that I am raising.It seems to me you don’t know how to read a text.
Let me simplify things for you.
1.Film music is a popular form of singing.It is meant for the large masses who include highly knowledgeable people like Pandit Ravi Shankar and Shri Paramjeet as well as rickshaw pullers.Now Paramjeet do you deny that Sehgal is not a widely known singer?However meritorious be the quality of his singing according to you,masses have rejected him.This is not the case with Rafi.
2.Sehgal has not stood the test of time which is very important for a singer to be really great.Do you deny that Sehgal met with oblivion in the fifties itself? This can’t be said of Rafi after thirty years of his demise.
3.Rafi’s task was much more challenging as he was called upon to sing almost every type of song that Hindi film music has had to offer.Can you say this thing of Sehgal?
4.In all my posts I have asked you to cite which of Rafi’s songs Sehgal could have sung . You haven’t answered these questions.
5.I am not questioning Sehgal’s ability to sing some kinds of semi-classical songs.I am simply saying that Sehgal’s voice failed to carry people along. His was a style of singing that couldn’t sustain interest in him when Rafi,Talat and Mukesh came along.
6.There are many and there were many in Rafi’s time also who could sing classical songs very well.But they didn’t have Rafi’s mellifluous voice that swept the nation and continues to make waves even now.There was a contemporary of Rafi,S.D.Batish.He was an excellent classicist but couldn’t make a mark in the film music.His voice didn’t help him.
Paramjeet,you seem to have an irascible temperament.You have rebuked others also.You also have a tendency to fly off the tangent.I don’t like to make personal comments on anybody but you have triggered the tirade.Now I request you to respond to the six points I have raised above.I will be happy to to be proved wrong silly.But if you have nothing to say,then mum is the word and not expletives.
Keeping in view the arguments till date about the supremacy of Ghantasala over Rafi or vice versa in singing talent, I, being a fan of both, wouldlike to observe that – most of the rafi fans know and understand only HINDI and they do not know or know little and understand Telugu or any other regional languages whereas Ghantasala fans know and understand not only Telugu but also Hindi and they admire both Ghantasala and Rafi. Therefore, ghantasala fans are better judges than rafi fans. Further, Hindi enjoys the reputation and publicity of a national language which the other regional languages donot get and as such hindi songs are more and more popular and accessible to public than songs of any regional languages in the country and quite naturally hindi singers like rafi get more attention and applause than regional singers like ghantasala. The Rafi fans look like having less patience and they have the psycho of losing the rafi`s greatness especially when somebody tries to prove that there is a singer better than rafi, that is ghantasala. The rafi fans should understand that some of the ardent fans of rafi were overwhelmed by the majestic and melodious voice of ghantasala and they rated him above rafi as the greatest ever, supreme and incomparable. The fact that Lata Mangeshkar preferred to sing the suvarna sundari song with ghantasala instead of rafi, after finding rafi struggling in rehearsals, clearly shows who is supreme and incomparable. This fact can be checked and verified with Lata Mangeshkar(who is still alive) if rafi fans so desire. Further, ghantasala had complete command over both telugu and sanskrit languages, which was more than the command rafi had over hindi.However, rafi was more famous than ghantasala just because of his association with national language while ghantasala confined himself to being regional. The rafi fans can better understand these hard realities only when they are prepared to open their eyes and call a spade a spade. They neednot listen to all songs sung by these two greats and if they keenly listen to some of the best songs sung by them , they can easily know who is the best. But all said and done, I still expect some fireworks from rafi fans who try to dispute and deny above matters. I just pity them. The fans of both legends say that ghantasala is easily the greatest ever produced by India for all times and he richly deserves BHARAT RATNA posthumously. There can never be one more singer like him in this KALI YUG.
Anil
Don’t act smart. You have not replied to paramjeet ji’s sensible post about your role in defending rafi fans in an opportunistic way. Coming to kishore’s site and you start projecting rafi and his fans as idols here. There was no comparison discussion here for long time, even vitthal ji was sharing ghantashala songs with kishore lovers and arghya ji was sharing kishore bengali songs, when MYK and others interfered bring rafi factor and diluting the whole topic. People like you started supporting rafi fans and whole topic got diluted into mud slinging. You rafi fans always want to spoil the party, Are you happy now? Your goal has been achieved. Vitthal ji, And Arghya ji, have decided to withdraw, that shows their great and sensible nature as music lovers, as they do not want to enter into unnecessary faltoo arguments from rafi fans. Actually, you rafi fans should be out from here so that this forum can be cleansed of its mud by/of rafi fans. Be happy now MYK, Anil and other rafi fans for achieving your goal of spoiling the party. You are not music lovers, but shamenatic spoilers of genuine music lover’s discussions.
Kishore fan,
You had told your points many times, and the same story. What will MYK and other rafi fans reply. They have no points to reply to ghantashala fans presentations, I have seen they are so perfect, that no body can counteract them. That is why, genuine music lovers like Arghya bhai, Paramjeet Bhai, Satyansh Bhai, surajit Bhai, kishore fan bhai have all appreciated ghantshala. The crux of my point is, silly replies are coming from these MYK and other rafians for projecting and maintaining rafi’s false superiority in a silly/foolish way rather than a dignifed way through sensible arguments, such as I will not reply, repetition of posts – One point I have seen many times – rafi not rendering certain genres rendered by ghantashala – Why MYK is escaping – he does not say either yes or no, but will say I will not reply – What is this ? if he says yes, he cannot prove, if he says no, he knows he admits the superiority. Really caught between two. It is a clear admission of submission to the facts presented by ghantashala fans, but would not like to openly admit as it will come in the way of rafi’s fanaticism. So nothing much to go on that.
Rafi fanatics, – Dhaniram and Myk
Dhaniram – what do you know about saigal ? One question asked by sandeep shrivastav ji, – saigal created influence with 200 songs which rafi could create with some thousands of songs. Where is the reply ? All silly escapism points you are raising.
MYK –
You have said kishore’s voice as phait hui tyre ? Kya deemag thik se kaam nai kar raha hai kya ? This phati hui tyre voice has overtaken rafi , dethroned rafi and made rafi never regain his earlier status. Samajh gaye kya yaah phir se thik se samjha doon. You ask paramjeet ji to write in english, you do not know hindi, how could you appreciate rafi and kishore’s hindi songs ? What are you talking nonsense ? Simply passing silly comments on kishore, ghantashala like singers.
MYK, You do not know about music and sangeet and start talking about siva sankari of ghantashala and rafi’s comparison with him. Is your mind working sensibly ? Do you know about respect a musician (a person with music knowledge) has for saigal and ghantashala. You write to shastry ji not to pass comments on your music. Then what about your comments on siva sankari/laila majnu song, which shows a BIG ZERO of your knowledge on music. Are such comments made by a person who has musical knowledge (you find fault with shastry ji for commenting on your musical knowledge) What are you upto? Creating furore here. If that is the case, please simply get lost from here, as no body is interested to hear any of further silly and funny comments from you.
MYK, contd.. My last line is – I hope you got what I mean.