An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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Prshant:
If you classify “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” as a classical worthy of mention, then all “Disco Dancer” songs are ghazals by comparison..This song is typically played in tea stalls in Calcutta with loafers humming it to impress bystanders. Anyway, I was not talking of isolated songs..I was asking you to rate Kishore vis-a-vis Rafi in these genres. Clearly he is nowhere among the top 3 in Qawalis, classical, ghazals, patriotic, folks and bhajans. Rafi figures among top 3 in all categories.
And since you mentioned “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” which to me was the worst rendition of this raaga till date, let me tell you Rafi had delivered the same raaga (Darbari Kannada) in exactly the same tune. The song is “Raha gardishon mein hardam” (Do Badan).
Please listen to the song and compare the smooth notes with the rough edges in your Alag Alag song; you will find the difference for yourself. Even if you have the faintest knowledge of music you will appreciate the high notes in the antras. For a change try to rectify and prove that you understand something about vocal music.
Dear Prashant, I thought some of Sudip’s questions were unnecessarily tough; other than C, D and E, I was afraid you wouldn’t be able to provide any answers. But your knowledge of music is amazing! You have been able to prove beyond doubt that KK is far superior to Rafi in not only pop/catchy songs, but also in classical songs, ghazals, bhajans, qawaalis, folk, philosophical, etc. And your idea of a soft romantic song: Chehra hai yah chand… And the best folk song: Khaike paan banaras-wala. Wow, what songs! God bless you.
Famous comment on kk
• .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.
$$$ Lata – A singer like Rafi saheb comes once in a while, he filled the void left by KL Saigal.
• Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.
$$$ Asha has said Sanju dutt sings as well as Kishore –you wanna quote this too. She is sanile.
• Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.
$$$$$ LP : they swear by the greatness of Rafi. Pyarelal in a recent intterview. Rafi was way ahead everyone not only in his singing ability but also his ethics and kindness.
• Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.
$$$$Kalyanji : Rafi had the most perfect voice and was technically the most correct singer. His songs for our films are very close to our hearts.
• R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best
$$$$$LOL …RD had a bias, lets not go into that when everyone knows what SD Burman had to say about Rafi. RDB never said KK could sing classical songs better….this is hilarious. LOL>>>LOL>>> why did RD then ask Bhupendra and Mana to sing his semi classical tunes. Kishore was not equipped to sing classical…you know nothing, you are simply talking rubbish.
• Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.
$$$$ favorite singer, sure he was his mama after all..LOL
• Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.
$$$$Anu Malik: I wanted Rafi sahab to sing my Poonam songs, he is the guru of singing.
• Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.
$$$$ yeah so what, aziz, anwar, shabbir, sonu,….udit …feel the same of Rafi
• Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female
$$$$$ lol…..i am sure the survey will be done by KK fans like you within the Kishore bachap andolan club…who the heck is abhijit anyway.
• Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.
$$$$$ BIg B: I did not sleep full night before the recording of the Naeeb song as I was so excited that i would be singing along a legend like Rafi.
$$$$$$$Naushad, OP Nyar, Usha Khaana, Ravi, Chtitragupta, Mana Dey, Mahendra Kapoor, Shankar Jailkishen, Madan Mohan, Rajesh Roshan, Roshan, SD Burman, Ananad Bakshi, Sonik Omi….the list is endless including Kishore Kumar, if ine reads what they have to say of Rafi, one could not only write a book but realise that singing starts and finishes at one point, the one and only Rafi.
That’s why I refrain from proclaiming Rafi’s BEST songs or Kishore’s BEST songs (because it is subjective, it is TOUGH to single out, and I’ve heard only a fraction of songs).
While I initially started off as Rafi #1 clearly and Kishore second, I’ve changed my view. While I still see Rafi as my favorite and the best (based on all factors discussed before), I do feel I’d like Kishore more if he had the benefit of my favorite MDs.
A great portion of comparison between Rafi and Kishore is like comparing apple to orange – you just can’t pick one over the other and that is what I say for many duets or similar songs they have done. For smaller portion like vocal range, popularity amonst MDs, etc. I do make easy comparison.
I very much like both Rafi & Kishore – both needed each other IMO.
I’m also an ardent admirer of today’s modern singers mainly Udit & Alka and think it is unfair to throw these guys out of consideration and say that they can’t compare to past legends. Udit’s voice belongs up there with the best and same with Alka.
Additionally, I consider myself enthusiastic about Rafi and Kishore (which in the most important thing in an occupation etc.) but I will say I have very little knowledge (and that doesn’t bother me, except maybe wish from time to time that with better knowledge I could appreciate songs better or KNOW of other songs that I love).
Both the careers of Rafi and Kishore are like galaxies. Each singer’s career is ENORMOUS, and I’ve probably heard ONLY 500 of Rafi’s songs. Seeing that he has done over 5000 different songs, I have hardly hit 10% of the universe and there is MUCH MORE for me to see.
Same thing with Kishore – he’s done over 3000 songs and I have probably heard only 500 songs (of course, as a child I heard him more than Rafi since he was a more common voice to Amitabh although my favorites were Rafi numbers). I have a long way to go. This sort of really takes away my authority on statements about Kishore or Rafi but from post #1 I said that my views are WITHIN ME and that they don’t supersede the views of others. Within my limited knowledge, whatever I say or conclude, is based on attempted logic, reason, and honest opinion.
At the end of the day, music is free for all and you can appreciate it (even if not to the fullest extent) even without so much knowledge.
Joy,
I certainly am an ardent fan of Rafi but I wouldn’t say I’m blind. I acknowledge that…
KK’s voice suited Amitabh even better than Rafi’s
KK rose to the top in 1969 over Rafi by merit and on fair grounds
KK held his ground against Rafi on several occasions
KK is more popular amongst the youth than Rafi, at least right now
Rafi’s voice showed signs of wear in 1980 and that had he lived on (wish he did), he’d been similar to Lata. Excellent up till the end of the 1980s, a shell of himself in the mid 90s but still a force to be wreckoned with, and a poor version of himself in 2000 like Lata.
I ALSO say that from time to time I get desensitized Rafi after listening so much and need a fresh voice like the public did in 1969 and then I resort to Kishore. I’ve said before that Rafi and Kishore enhance each other by serving as fresh alternatives to one another.
Not sure about this last point, while Rafi unmatched versatility and could amazingly modulate his voice, Kishore’s deeper voice sounded a bit tougher at times and suited the action hero. Whenever Rafi did playback for an action hero, his melodious voice didn’t have violence in it whereas a deep voice could convey that. If Parvarish was action packed movie, Rafi’s melodious voice sounded peaceful and soothing whereas Kishore’s deep voice sounded confrontational (and indeed, in the duet “Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe” Amitabh-Kishore are CONFRONTING Vinod Khanna who tries to appear innocent).
Well said dron saheb. Kumar sanu has sang many of KK songs, how preposterous would KK fans find when Sanu fans claim he has sung better than KK.
It seems these KK fans are running the “Kishore bachao Andaolan”. They keep rambling one thing over and over again. If there is any conviction and belief then say it once instead of repeating the same stale script.
Lip service costs nothing. If you really love KK then donate to this site so that it can improve and survive and save the KK home that is in ruins and ignored. Shame on you.
KK was a rich man and I guess he must have left lots of money behind him, why does not Amit Kumar use that money to repair the home.
He goes on rambling in every show how his father was the number 1 singer from 69 onwards, something which the fans have taken off him in their ramblings and “Kishore Bachao Andolan”.
I am amazed to see the level of insecurity in Amit and other KK fans that they need to resort to such hackned comments every time.
Further they need to demonise Rafi and ignore his unmatched achievements in order to make KK look better. Another proof of their insecurity.
Discuss the songs of KK and his singing takents rather than demonise proven legends like Rafi, the day you start putting this into action, that would be the day when you would stop insulting the fond memory of Kishore.
So kindly stop this “Kishore Bachao Andolan”
P. Haldar,
I remembered the comment you made on SDB mentioning how Rafi and Kishore were his first and second reserves. A good friend posted the article in which that quote appeared. The article is on SDB from Filmfare, a Nov 1975 issue written by Raju Bharatan. I would like to provide the extract:
———————————
“His fine sense of rhythm was derived from his experience as an ace tennis player. “Tennis is one game that requires you to be extra alert”, he use to say. “It helped keep my reflexes sharp. It taught me that in music as in tennis, there are two ‘serves’. If the first ‘serve’ fails, in the second you do not tryt something so flashy. Sometimes my first ‘serve’ click – as in ‘Hum bekhudi mein’ and ‘Kya se kya ho gaya’. At other times, the second ‘serve’ came into play. In Aradhana I tried both serves – Rafi and Kishore. This time the second ‘serve’ click. I had always had Kishore in reserve. Now he became my main singer.”
If Kishore so emerged as the Voice of Youth, it was because Dada had discovered in his music the secret of external youth. “Aradhana may have mark my comeback, but the music of Guide remains my pride and joy” he mentioned. “The film’s theme offered me maximum scope. I found no limitation and I had our two best singers: Lata and Rafi.”
———————————
It is clear SDB thought Rafi was the greatest along with Lata, and he wasn’t the only one. Also, SD mentioning ‘first’ serve could be because his favourite was Rafi although he also held Kishore in high regard as well. I notice a shift in SDB’s music, especially his rhythm post 1970. What is the reason for this ?. What rhtyhm patterns did SDB base his music on, was it Rabindra Sangeet or folk rhythms ?. Sudip, you can answer this question as well.
You mentioned “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”, it was RDB responsible for the recording, a song meant completely for Rafi, as well as the whole Abhimaan theme. SD knew the gift of Rafi and used it to great effect. It was RD who missed out in using Rafi to the maximum, although there are numerous gems from that combo.
Also SD may have thought KK’s time had come which is why he switched over in the 70’s but he gave Rafi gems during that time as well. His ill health combined with Pancham taking over his recordings also tilted the balance in favour of Kishore.
I think SDB was a complete MD, very talented, one of the all-time greatest. He was as good in composing classical based songs as he was in trendy music. He was also the master at folk music, I don’t think anyone could reach him at this theme.
What are your views on all of this as well as SD compared to Pancham who was also a talented musician ?.
Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.
>>>>>> If some KK fans are living in fanrasies, I am soory to say that some Rafi fans need to relax.
As I said before you guys and gals know a spec of the facts and the truth. KK sang this song as a mark of rememberance and respect in the memory of Rafi and not for commercial purposes and here i see you have ven started to compare his shradanjali. This is disappointing. Lata also sang it as a Shardanjali and she said ” These songs of Rafi are very hard to sing and now when I look back I can see he made it sound so easy.
So please STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
really bapan u r right i got information from the book
also it is right that kishore fans are 40000 more than mohd. rafi9not counting smaller groups)in orkut
kishore(largest club in orkut ) 69579
rafi ( largest club in orkut ) 10967
lata (largest club in orkut ) 15928
mukesh (largest club in orkut ) 3064
asha (largest club in orkut ) 2786
manna (largest club in orkut ) 2443
udit (largest club in orkut ) 2231
puncham da (largest club in orkut ) 8414
fact is clear he still got the largest pool of fans than any other
if majority is liking then it got some point
Famous comment on kk
• .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.
• Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.
• Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.
• Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.
• R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best
• Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.
• Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.
• Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.
• Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female
• Alka Yagnik-Everybody in my family is his crazy fan.If you see the C.Ds and cassetes in my car and house,you will see that there is an overwhelming majority of two names-Kishore Kumar & Lata Mangeshkar.
• Rajesh Khanna-Kishore Kumar is my favourite singer. I owe the majority of my success to him.
• Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.
FACTS
• Salil Chowdhury,Hemant Kumar used Kishore more?KK had so many hits with R.D,S.D,K-A,L-P,Bapi Lahiri,Rajesh Roshan
• He has also sang for Naushad in a 1975 film.
• .He was also the voice of Dev,Rishi Kapoor,Randhir Kapoor,Shasi Kapoor,Sanjeev Kumar,Kishore Kumar,Mithun etc.
.
Dear Unknow1, Ziyaad, Sudip, Manish Kumar, I am really proud of you all.
Rafi Saheb is and will always be #1.
dear sudip
this is my answer
1. classical (Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara …from the movie Alag Alag)
2. semi classical (Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi-semi classical)
3.rock (disco 82, disco 84 actually i don’t remember actual wordings but many song by bappi lehri)
4. ghazal (“Na-Ashna Har Rahguzar
Na-Meharbaan Sab Ki Nazar
Jaayein Toh Ab Jayeein Kidhar, Main Aur Meri Awaargi”
It’s called Awaargi. Written by Javed Akhtar, it was first used in the movie Duniya. Music, of course, was by RD. Some 10 years later Javed used the same ghazal in his album with Nusrat fateh ali khan saab
also
tum aa gaye ho is ghazal type where he suppressed lata ji
5. soft romantic ( i don’t think that any body can overcome him in this field
but let me put some song like
chukar mere man ko from yarana
chehra hai ya chand khila and many more
6. sad songs ( why u r putting this type as he was really genius in it
Mere mehboob qayamat hogi,
Main shayar badnaam
dil aisa kisine mera toda
7.folk
the best folk khaike paan banaras wala
8.he used to sing bhajans in begali (this time its not in my mind but i will tell u later bhajans of hindi also)
9.
now tell me any singer who can sing these songother than love songs
sad songs (as i discussed earlier so not making it point here) better than him
1. inspiration (ruk jana nahi … and many more)
2.Philosophical (jindagi ka safar…….
aane wala pal jaane wala he..)
3. cool or moody song(eena meena deeka….)
4.duets with lata
5.and last but not least yeodleeeyoooo type song
Kishore’s advantages:
————————-
Kishore’s advantage (as clearly evident in this forum) was his image of “eccentric genius”. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we know how to dissociate such factors when we try to analyze singing abilities objectively.
This is the same reason why people rate:
1. Maradona/George Best higher than Pele (I also do, but leave out the “eccentricity” out of the equation)
2. Ritwick Ghatak over Satyajit Ray
3. McEnroe over Borg; Agassi over Sampras
Let’s face it guys-we all are fond of colorful characters and love to romanticize in the aura of eccentricity..ECCENTRICITY SELLS BIG TIME!
Eccentricity (Paglamo in Bengali) can add color to the persona, but has zilch to do with singing or the skill in question.
The say that when you set to do something, the most important thing is that you LOVE what you’re doing. I absolutely love the songs of Rafi, Lata, and Kishore and enjoy discussing them – that is why I won’t have the keen knowledge of P Haldar but I’ll have enthusiasm for it. I’ll actually say that I’ve come to appreciate KK more after this thread after pouring my thoughts and rethinking some things and realizing.
I think the reason I compared Man Re with KK & Rafi is because I don’t have the intricate knowledge to appreciate the fine points of a song. For example, I once proclaimed that I like Sholay better than Mughal E Azam and someone went on to tell me that you had to be aware of the history and times of Mughal E Azam to pick up the nuances of humor or comedy etc. (and Sholay to depreciate it). Since I don’t have such nuances, I wasn’t able to CLEARLY discern between the two versions. I also addressed this because at some other site a KK fan mentioned it as a better rendition.
Prashant,
Overall, I pick Mohammed Rafi as the #1 singer. His COMBINATION of voice quality, classical training, emotion and personality into a song, and sheer magic is unmatched. Some of those classical singers you mentioned probably are more skilled than Rafi, but they cannot match his melodious voice and so overall he trumps them. This is why I take Rafi over Manna Dey or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.
Btw…anyone who says KK was the second golden voice after KL Saigal without mentioning Rafi must have been in outer space for 20 years after Saigal. Unlike Kishore and Lata, Rafi not only met with Saigal, he also sang with him. Saigal said to Rafi, “The keys to the kingdom are yours.” Rafi said the same to Kishore eventually.
Prashant:
Since you talked genres, in how many of these can you place Kishore?
A. Classical/ Semi-classical
B. Thumris and Ghazals
C. Peppy/Rock
D. Soft romantic
E. Sad songs
F. Qawwali
G. Bhajans
F. Patriotic
G. Punjabi/Bhangra
H. Folk
Pls do the analysis yourself. We can take on from there.
Do not tell me what Kishore COULD HAVE done. Limit it to what he has done. For that matter one may argue Michael Jackson COULD HAVE sung ghazals. The reality is he HASN’T.
MOHD RAFI IS THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS PRODUCED INDIA MUST BE BE PROUD TO HAVE A SINGER LIKE MOHD RAFI WE SHOULD COMPARE RAFI WITH ANOTHER SINGER
HE HAS SUNG DIFFICULT SONG VERY EASILY HE WAS SO VERSATILE I REMENBER A CLASSICAL SONG FROM THE FILM MRIG KRISNA THE SONG TITLE IS NAW KALPANA IF ANYONE LISTEN TOTHE SONG HE WILL REALISE THE FORCE OF MOHD RAFI
SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT AFTER ARADHNA THE LEAN YEARS OF RAFI BEGAN I DONT AGREE WITH IT YOU KNOW HOW MANY HITS SONGS RAFI HAS DELIVERED FILM LIKE HEER RANJA WARIS HUMJOLI JAWAB SEEMA NAIHNA MEHMOOB KI MEHENDI AAN MILO SAJNA THE TRAIN HONEYMOON MILAP EKNARI DOROOP ROOP TERA MASTANA BENAAM JEEWAN MRITYU AAP AYE BAHAR AYEE LALLKAR GORA AUR KALA PARWANA AND MANY MORE ALL THESE FILM SONGS WAS HITS EVEN AFTER 1970 RAFI SUNG A HUGE NUMBER OF SONG FOR EXAMPLE FOR SHAMMI KAPOOR FOR THE JAWAN MOHABUTH HE SUNG FIVE SONG FOR SHASHI KAPOOOR HE SUNG SIX SONGS FOR THE FILM NATHC UTHA SANSAR IN LALLKAR THEIR ARE FOUR SONG AND MANY MORE IT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE THAT RAFI WAS OVERSHADOWERED BY KK HOW CAN WE FORGOT THE SONG FROM THE FILM SEEMA JAB BHI YE DIL UDHAS HOTA HAI I THINK THIS IS THE BEST SONG RAFI HAS SUNG IN THE SEVENTIES IN MY OPINOIN RAFI WSA THE THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS EVER PRODUCED
IT WAS THE MEDIA WHO WROTE MANY ARTICLES OF KK FAVOUR EVEN FOR THE FILMFARE AWARD THE JURIES HAS DONE UNJUSTICE TO HIM . IN 1980 THREE SUPER HITS SONGS WAS NOMINATED COMPARE TWO FOR KK . KK GOT THE AWARD FOR HAZAR RAHEN THE SONG FROM THE FILM KARZ DARD E DIL WAS THE NUMBER ONE SONG IN 1980 EVEN AFTER RAFI DEATH KK GOT FOUR AWARD IN A ROW SHABBIR KUMAR SUNG MANY HITS SONG. ONE THING I DONT UNDERSTAND SAGAR TITLE WAS AWARDED IN 1986 SUCH AN EASY SONG SHOULD BE AWARDED ANYONE CAN SING IT EASILY
“An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi & Kishore Kumar”. See here also it’s Rafiji’s name first than Kishore Kumar… so…!!!
Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.
Dear prashant,
KK was good singer they should write about him but they never say that kk was the best bollywood singer but when then say about Mohd Rafi they said no words to say on the greatness of Mohd Rafi….
Do u think KK fans If there was no KK there was no RD or Rajesh Khanna or Mr Bachchan?but when Shammi Kapoor spoke about Mohd Rafihe said IF THERE WAS NO MOHD RAFI THERE WAS NO SHAMMI SAME SAID BY O N NAYAR and also great Naushand said Mohd Rafi was 50% of his music,SPB said when u listen to Mohd Rafi he think that he is not half singer…….
Dear KK fans if we say black colour is white it will not be white because black is black and white is white……..
Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together
>>>>>
This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.
Blind fans…..????
Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together
>>>>>
This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.
Blind fans…..????
according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
“Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”
>>>> Who is Rafi then???
Well said,a nice article,ofcourse Kishoreda is the all time greatest.
now i want to quote some recent news from times of india
“Kishore da lives on – in music, remixes
14 Oct, 2002 l 0302 hrs ISTlIANS
NEW DELHI: Fifteen years after he died, Kishore Kumar’s unparalleled yodelling in Bollywood films continues to inspire countless remixes.
” Zindagi ko bahut pyar humne diya, maut se bhi mohabbat nibhayenge hum ,” he had once sung. He is doing just that – with his enchanting songs that continue to hold the present generation spellbound as were his countless fans during his heyday from the 1950s till the 1980s.
What better evidence of this than the latest remix, “Kishore Da n the Daddy Mix”. It’s been a bestseller ever since its release earlier this year.
So what is it that continues to make a Kishore song tug at the heart? Is it the timbre of his voice? His versatility? Or the empathy that came through as he sang?
It is perhaps a combination of all three. ”
according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
“Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”
what i am trying to explain is the popularity of this legendry in this arena of 21st century.
also if u r going again on notes and raga then u should always admit the fact that they(lata mohd. rafi and kk) are nothing compared to classical legendry like gangu bai hangal bhimsen joshi pandit jasraj etc….
so bollywood singing is totally based on popularity not on the raga and notes. ragas are just used to give song popularity.how many songs of bollywood are totally based on a true raga very few all are derived from them. if raga is only criteria then hip hop , rock ,jazz , lok sangit doesn’t exist.
even on raga and taal if u ask any expert manna was far ahead from these three legendry but not got the golden voice . so he was not best….
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy)
>>> No singer has had a schedule more busy than Rafi and not one song was throated.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Manish seems to be a blind follower of Rafi, a bit too blind really:)
If Rafi was as popular as Kishore I must say he must have his grey cells examined:) One can say IMO so and so is best singer.. for a million reasons one can like someone or not like someone.
For these million reasons the majority of people in this world like Kishore more and thats why they buy more of Kishore.. Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together.. This goes to show that when the whole world is wrong it indeed is right:) offc ourse there will be the one odd man like manish who will be an exception and exceptions prove the rule !
Most people feel the best singer is Kishore (for reasons as personal to them as can be) and thats the favourite singer of the world.. Though Rafi did rule till 1969 kishore has ruled happily ever after!
Manish,
I am really glad that despite being born after the farishta passed away, you are His fan. May the tribe keep expanding.
I want to make a couple of points, though. First, don’t focus too much on those Kishore-…. duets; while some of them are ok, most of them are the “Chal shuru ho jaa fata faat” kind. If someone thinks Kishore sang better in those duets, I don’t give a damn. But please do not ever compare Kishore with Him in songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”. I’ve heard Kishore sing this gem on stage and I’ve refrained from making any comments on it, because I know he did it in good faith and in the memory of his friend and idol. Lata has also sung this song in her Shraddhanjali series but I’ve decided not to listen to it. Amzad Ali Khan played this song recently in an FM channel as a demonstration of one of the best renditions of classical-based songs ever portrayed on screen. And I’d simply request you to leave songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” and “Man tadpat hari darshan” alone; these are highly spiritual songs and please do not attach any other singer’s name to these songs.
I have no problems if you compare your favourite singer’s rendition of “Chor sipahee” or “Salamat rahe dostana hamara” with Kishore’s. The competition should be fair — there should be a level playing field.
Hi MAST MAST,
He sang a song in your name too: Jawaniyan yeh mast mast. He sang this song 50 years ago for Shammi Kapoor in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and I’m sure you’ll like this song even today.
Prashant, responding to point number 10, let me tell you that the comment is not absurd at all. Try a non-classical number like “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera” (some may say it’s based on raag pancham, though) and try to sing it in Kishore’s voice. Tell me if you could do it. RD could do it and that’s why he took upon the job himself in “Piya tu ab to aaja” and “Veera tara tara tara”; the only other male singer who could do it was …. (I am not using His name anymore, because, as Dron rightly pointed out, it invites the scorn of bigots). And, presuming you are a Hindu, listen to “Man tadpat hari darshan ko” (there’s a live version of the Aarohi program conducted by Naushad available on youtube). No Hindu saint would be able to have the effect that this singer had with two of the most important words in the Hindu lexicon: “Hari Om”. Why Kishore, you and I can also chant those two words; the question is will it have the desired effect? Of course, if you think Kishore’s Om Shanti Om is more divine, then there is no point arguing with you.
And don’t keep talking about classical singers being better in classical singing than Him; everyone knows that. But it is quite another thing to take raga-based songs, limited to a maximum of six minutes, to the masses; that’s what Naushad and He did with Baiju Bawra. Go to any village in Gujarat, UP or Bihar and even common people are aware of these songs. And, as Robin rightly pointed out, don’t keep saying that KK is more popular than …. His name is revered throughout the world and His appeal transcends regional, national, religious and ethnic boundaries.
You’ll have to also realise that we intruded into this site because His name and picture appeared in the article. We actually don’t have a feud with you guys; most of my fellow bhakts consider this to be an unnecessary distraction. The real battle is with someone else. Only time will heal the wounds we have suffered over the years, especially during the 1971-75 period, when the “matlabi” industry deserted the giant on whose shoulders it rode for 20 years and the way the hagiographers of the other singer (not your guru) are still trying to undermine Him.
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if one is a jem and other is a diaomond.
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if on is a jem and other is diaomond.
Prashant: on point 3, Kumar Sanu was a great singer and I actually think he could hold his ground with three favorite songs of mine against any singer: “Tujhe Dekha” (suprise!), “Kisi Roz Tumse” (Pardes 1997) and “Yeh Kaali Kaali Ankhein” (Baazigar 1993). I’ve knowingly left out some other gems but these three are my favorite Sanu songs. It is unfair to call Sanu a COMPLETE subset of Kishore – he did eventually adapt into his own. I also think that another great singer could not OVERTAKE Sanu in those three songs.
Nevertheless, I think Rafi would have sung the songs of “1942 A Love Story” much much better than Kumar Sanu.
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy).
BTW…my new favorite duet of Rafi&Kishore: “Chor Sipahee” 1977
Many times I see a duet of Rafi and Kishore and struggle to CLEARLY proclaim the better singer. Sure, Rafi wins more for me but the gap isn’t significant. This goes to show, at least for me, that I like Rafi a lot more because he was given better songs. Both did an excellent job for “Chor Sipahee” my new favorite, and my childhood favorite being Salamat Rahe Dostana.
Part of the reason I’m particuarly motivated in this thread is because I missed commenting on the debate for the article “SRK wants to make a movie about KK” and I felt some KK fans were saying some unjustified things.
Here’s an excellent rendition of a Rafi song by Kishoreda. This song is GREAT in its own way, I don’t think the Rafi version overtakes this nor does the Kishore version overtake Rafi’s. Both are full of emotion and backed by great voices. Make sure you have real player:
http://songs.kishorekumar.org/03_MANARE_TU_KAHE_NA.ram
There are some that will pick one version over the other but IMO both are too good to really say. I wish Kishore had some more Rafi songs.
Rafi onwards from 1979-82 created a huge blitskerg of melodies. If he had lived I am sure it would have continued.
The LP-Rafi combo was indeed great, many hits during that particular period as was the case from 1963 onwards. Rafi and RD was a big miss fter 1980 as P. Haldar had mentioned. One of Rafi’s best latter day composers was Rajesh Roshan, they had a lot of hits as well from 74-80.
Prashant: Shant ho jao..
“some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.”
-Boss, for this we do not need rafi’s testimonial.
1. Kishore himself did not think he did justice to “Salaam-e-Ishq” (Muqaddar Ka Sikandar” and “Waada tera Waada” (Dushman). In these cases, the saviors were the actors. Both Amitabh and Rajesh’s voice needed Kishore. I personally think Kishore sang them well. But we don’t know if the Music directors wanted those the way they got.
2. Kishore had to shy away from Lata’s version of “mere Naina saawon bhadon”. His version does not have the haunting classical high pitch strains.
3. “Humen tumse pyar kitna” (Kudrat) had to be simplified for Kishore. To anyone who understands music the Parveen Sultana version was way better. Rafi never shied away from any version, however tough. Kalyanji once mentioned that Rafi was the only singer (not even Lata) where they did not have to think whether he can actually sing the song.
4. Nafrat Ki duniya (Haathi Mera Saathi) had to go Rafi’s way after 5 takes by Kishore. LP mentioned this number of times. In this case, even Rajesh’s presence could not save KK.
5. In Raagini, it is well known that SJ thought the songs were not “Kishore’s cup of tea”.
6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.
Just 10 points do not make you any more logical than the KK fans out here. I can provide 10 points for each of your 10 points.
Just a small clarification to KK fans: I love KK. I play KK in my car stereo. But extrapolating that to say he is the best singer of all time is ridiculous.
I thought I might as well stay here since P. Haldar and Sudip have also stayed. I would like to comment on Prashant’s points:
Point 1: In regards to making a superstar, Rafi made much more actors than Kishore did, Kishore has a hand in the careers of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh, but if you look at the list of Rafi there is Biswajeet, Joy Mukherjee, Sanjay Khan, Dharmendra, Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, and a whole host of others. You mention when KK stopped singing for Rishi Kapoor he became a flop, if you notice after Bobby KK took over after SS as Rishi’s voice and then post Laila majnu, Rafi became the voice or Rishi and that pair gave so many hits, so can you truly say after KK stopped singing, Rishi became a flop, I doubt it.
Point 2: LoL L-P replaced Rafi with Kishore is really hilarious. I am amused at where these facts are coming from. L-P’s number one singer was Rafi, they used Kishore to be partial.
Point 3: RD wanted to be different from the rest, which is why he needed a new voice and KK was perfect for his compositions. Rafi also suited his songs very well.
Point 4: Discussing clones in pointless, Kishore could never reach Rafi’s level of singing because he never had the same qualities or range that Rafi had. Rafi covered a vast spectrum and a variety of genres, something Kishore was never able to achieve.
Point 5: LoL again record stats is hilarious, Rafi sells more than any artist, and his songs are more in demand than Lata’s songs, a fact mentioned by Laxmikant before his death. Recently there was a poll mentioning that Rafi sells more than Michael Jackson does among the younger age group in India.
Point 6: To each his own, Lata and Rafi are much above comprisons with any singer, they are the benchmarks of their field, recognized by the majority of musicians in the industry as the two greatest singers the indian film industry has ever had.
Points 7, 8 & 9: All subjective points, based on no facts, so ofcourse again to each his own. Its nice to see a Kishore fan appreciate his talents as he was a great singer.
Point 10: A song is composed with a singer in mind so in that sense no singer can sing any other song by another singer, but referring to the comment made, in this case all it means is that Rafi had such a range that he could attempt with ease all types of songs that other singers sang. Whereas others cannot easily attempt Rafi songs because of the degree of difficulty associated with them.
I agree with Manish, Sholay would have been much better had Rafi been there, the fact is that the dialogue sold more than the music. Rafi is very popular among the younger crowd. The majority of MD’s used Rafi because he was the best in the business or else we would have seen history re-written differently.
I see what you’re saying.
However, I too think popularity is a great indicator of greatness, so long as there isn’t some other factor that is distorts things beyond reason.
Clearly, the great Kishore Kumar, his songs, and the work of RDB were great entities and it is silly to even try to make an analogy with Playboy Magazine IMO. I do understand though that you were merely trying to explain a concept.
I do think Rafi is comparably popular to Kishore.
Prshant is the latest addition to the number of KK fans who try to defend with the argument of popularity. Honestly, I think Rafi is more popular if you consider all over India and all age groups. I know of several KK fans who converted to Rafi once they started having grey hair..This hold good for Babul Supriyo, Shaan as well.. As they get more into Bollywood, they understand who is the king and they start singing Rafi songs..
Even then, we the Rafi fans would try to analysze with quality and not with quantity. If cheap popularity is a measure of art, then pornographic magazines are better than Tagore’s literary works..When the market invades art, it is the end of art.
Rafi could cater to both cheap popularity and the classical taste without resorting to any gimmick or gizmo..That makes him universal.
And who says that someone who has a good ear for classical music does not enjoy it from the heart?? Enjoyment has different forms, some are more esoteric. If ignorance is a virtue, then as I said playboy magazine is a better art form than Tagore.
Prashant:
On your first point, Amitabh’s strategy to overtake Rajesh Khanna was to steal Kishore Kumar. Amitabh Bachchan would not have risen in the ranks so quickly if it wasn’t for KK. He would be significantly reduced i.e. Amitabh wouldn’t be Amitabh without the voice of KK and the two matched either PERFECT – no one could replace KK for Amitabh – not even Rafi – despite giving him song great playback like in Dostana or Naseeb. Amitabh’s movie Mukadar Ka Sikandar – I enjoyed it only because of Kishore’s songs particuarly “O Saathi Re.” Kishore carried that movie else it was crap. Dostana was trite and predictable but the song of Rafi and Kishore made it a super hit.
Second point: I still feel that majority of the music directors had Rafi as first choice. In fact, I’ll expand on this and say that a great reason for why I prefer Rafi over Kishore is BECAUSE FOR ME, Rafi got better songs and more songs. My favorite MDs are SJ, LP, and KA. The favorite singers of SJ and LP was Rafi. If Kishore sang some of Rafi’s numbers – they’d be great songs in their own ways. A Kishore rendition IMO would unlikely overtake a Rafi rendition but it would be GREAT. For example, the song Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, I personally don’t clearly prefer one over the other – – each has advantage disadvantage (yodel vs crisp voice). Both versions are great. RDB and SDB are great composers but they are not my favorites. If Kishore had sang more numbers for SJ (my favorite) – the gap of liking between him and Rafi for me would decrease for me. The MDs, singers, and actors ALL needed each other. As pointed out before, death of Jaikishan in 1971 was a big blow to Rafi. Rafi sang ~5000 songs where KK sang ~3100 songs.
This makes me jump to your point 10: There are some songs of Rafi that Kishore could not sing. A KK fan commented that he didn’t care if KK did not sing “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale.” FAIR ENOUGH. There are some songs where KK does not have the a high enough vocal range (he’d sound strained trying to do “Ae Mohabbat Zindabad” from Mughal E Azam or even the simple song “Bura Mat Suno where there are moments Rafi has to go high pitch). Most KK fans will agree that Rafi had a wider vocal range and this immediately makes KK unable to render some Rafi numbers. Additionally, you cannot expect KK to do a qawali with proper alaaps or do classical numbers as well as Rafi when they REQUIRE classical training!
Third point: Bear in mind that Mohammed Rafi was supposed to sing the songs of Aradhana. Rafi could sing any song of RDB and do it just as well. HOWEVER they would still not have the same impact as KK because…the public became desensitized to Rafi after 20 years of dominance – they needed a break and a fresh voice IMO and KK provided that. They needed fresh kind of music and RDB provided. More importantly, KK was GREAT and different from Rafi and this served well with a BREAK from Rafi and could also appeal to a different audience. I think the song “Koi Haseena” and “Holi Ke Din” would have done much better under Rafi than Kishore and the soundtrack of Sholay wasn’t as popular. Nevertheless, the songs of RDB not suprisingly better suited KK. So while I conclude that KK was the right choice for KK, it wasn’t purely on sheer merit (as opposed to needing something fresh and different).
Point 4: That is PURELY opinion. My favorite singer is Udit Narayan. For me, Rafi songs were ETERNAL. This depends on the choices of the fan.
Point 5: I’d say KK is enjoying the recency effect. Coincidentally, I was born in 1985 and I know of Rafi because he did playback for Amitabh in 1980 movies. I became introduced to Rafi mostly from 3 songs: John Johny Janardan, Salamat Rahe Dostana, and Kaun Kisiko Band Sakega (Kaalia). Had Rafi not voiced for Amitabh, it may have been longer before I became acquainted with my favorite singer. KK, of course, was THE voice for Amitabh and since Amitabh is still active and people are ACTIVELY aware of his greatness – people are more ACTIVELY aware of KK and that is why KK is more popular among younger people. The real test will come 20 years from now. According to HMV record company, Rafi sells more. Do you have proof of your statement?
6. Maybe. I always liked Rafi over specialists in classical like Manna Dey because of his inhernetly superior, melodious voice. That is why I like the qawaalis of Rafi better than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan mainly because of Rafi’s superior voice although Nusrat is of course more specialized and more famous for it. As for KK being better in playback – again that is only your opinion. I disagree.
7. Whole heartedly agree that KK could put emotion into the song. Definitely. However, Rafi was great in his own right and he TOO could put emotion into songs. As one small example (not to be generalized), in the song Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara – Rafi had more emotion for me. In fact, some will say that a handful of songs KK THROATED whereas with Rafi, majority of songs seemed to come from the heart. Classifying a song as “emotional” is clear but subjective nevertheless so it is crude to say but I’d wager Rafi has had more emotional numbers than KK as he sang almost twice the number of different songs as KK. I disagree with you.
8. Agreed.
9. I agree to that singing is art. In fact, I think RDB once said, when comparing KK and Rafi, that Rafi was technically perfect but KK did not follow the rules and found a way to enthrall audience RDB said Rafi was Ivan Lendl whereas KK was John McEnroe. Of course, RDB knows more about music than I but I do think Rafi could enthrall the audience with songs like “Yahoo!” or “Hum Kaale Hain To”. And I agree that KK belongs in the hearts of KK fans and that no one can replace him. He is great in his own way.
Prashant thanks dost. Finally we have someone here to write something decently from KK fans’ side 🙂
i don’t know why in the website dedicated to yoodleeeyoo such a worse discussion is going on kishore kumar and nobody is able to give fact about him.
let me put some point
1.kishore was a singer who when started singing for a actor then he become superstar and when he left hi he become flop
like in case of amitabh bachaan rajesh khanna, anil rishi and many more
2. if any body is discussing about the fact that he had not sang for many music directors then he shoud know that laxmikant pyarelal choose him to replace mohd. rafi
bappi lehri rajesh roshan and even anu mallik got rise from his singing.
he was a star creator nobody created him a star
3. it’s very easy to say that rd choose kishore that’s why kishore was famous. but if take in different side u will fnd no male voice song of rd could be fulfilled by other singer. kk was not his choice but its mandatory for him. as if he composed song for 1942 love story then again he used kishore school singer kumar sanu.
4. no doubt that mohd. rafi style of singing give good songs but kishore kumar style put a song to such a level that it become eternal
if you compare eternal hits give by only singer who use kk style then it is much more than rafi style of singer. like in case of abhijit and kumar sanu compared to sonu nigam and udit narayan.even new singer like babool kk and shaan used his style (style of heart)
5. on selling rafi’s fan has to accept the fact that they far behind kishore as every albums of old songs has 60-70% share of kk
6. if u go on classical then u shouldn’t compare them with lata and mohd. rafi as they are also tiny in comparison to gangubai hangal and bade gulam ali saab.
bollywood playback singing is for common mass and here no doubt kk was always greater than lata and rafi
7.also he could put more emotion in songs as he was a great actor
8.if u go on prize then u should know that gandhi never got nobel peace prize but it does not mean that he was not there. he was above any leader of his time.we kk fan consider him god and god never need bharat ratna.
if u rafi or lata fan have a prize for ever singer then u can give him
also remember one thing this the one aspect of this legendry
Debates can go on him for best actor, comedian, music composer and personality..
9. singing is not for analyzing that it is made of this raga or that taal but it’s for enjoying and in this aspect we kk fan can easily say that no body can beat him
10.some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.
Nobody can say this type of thing. First music director used to say that ur voice is not for singing kk but he proved
Sudip, sorry for the typo; I meant 1975, not 1980. By 1980 Rafi’s confidence was back and his voice was getting closer and closer to that of his in the 60s. Thanks for providing the list of songs during the 79-80 period; I particularly like Tu is tarah zindagi mein shamil hain, Dard-e-dil dard-e-jigar, Maine poochha chand se and Simti hui ye ghadiyan. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Kala Patthar, “Baahon mein teri…” where Rafi and Lata both sound very good (in this song Rafi’s voice approaches his 60’s voice). Kishore had a major hit in this Rajesh Roshan-composed film, “Ik rasta hai zindagi”. I also like Kishore’s songs in Yaraana, something you may disagree with. Again, the songs are sung in a slightly heavier and coarser voice, but I think he purposely did that considering that they were meant for Amitabh. There’s a song of Rafi’s from Poonam that was released after this death: “Mohabbat rang layegi”. I really like that song. Rafi also did a pretty good job singing for Dev Anand in Man Pasand, “Logon ka dil”, almost a decade after he sang for the actor in Gambler.
All in all, the 80s would have brought out the best in Kishore and Rafi, with LP, RD, RR and KA competing for the top spot. And among all the possible combinations, the one that I was looking forward to most was the RD-Rafi one, probably because of the range that both could provide and because of my own biases.
P. Haldar wrote:”In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore”
–Mukesh is very popular in Gujarat. He has sung some very good bhajans in Gujarati. If you take a poll among Gujaratis, especially those of the 1960s generation, I won’t be surprised if he tips Rafi or Kishore in popularity.
I agree that Rafi in the 1980s (or rather 1980) was nowhere near the Rafi of the 60s, but the quality of songs had gone down as well. But in 1979-1980 the LP-Rafi combination was clearly way ahead of any other MD-singer combo in for the period. Some of my Rafi favorites during 1979-1980:
1. Hum to chale pardes (Sargam,LP)
2. Aab yeh jaana ke (Ladies Tailor, LP)–>here the vocal quality was comparable to the 60s
3. Aashaon ki sawan mein (Aasha, LP)
4. Chalo re doli (Jaani Dushman, LP)
5. Kaali ghata chhayi (Kaali ghata, LP)
6. Jaanewalon ka gham (Kaali Ghata,LP)
7. Tu is tarah zindagi mein (Aap to Aise na the, Usha Khanna)
8. Simti si yeh ghadiyan (Chambal Ki Kasam, Khaiyyam)–>again comparable to 1960s
9. Tere siva na kisika banooga (Professor Pyarelal, Kalyanji Anandji)
10. Dard-e-dil (Karz, LP)
11. Maine poocha chand se (Abdullah, RD)
12. O meri chorni (Kaatilon ki kaatil, Kalyanji Anandji)–>peppy number a glaring proof that age permitting, Rafi would have ruled even in late 80s with amir Khan like heroes.
13. Arey sambhalo mere yaaron (Khuda Kasam, LP)
14. Yeh aapne kya kar diya (Khuda Kasam, LP)
—————————————————–
See I have left out the popular numbers of Dostana, Shaan, Naseeb….Add those and you will get the dominant singer of 1979-80 by miles.
Singer123, I don’t think we should read too much into this “Rafi playbacked for Kishore” thing. Kishore’s fans also keep unnecessarily repeating that Kishore was too busy acting so he didn’t have time to sing. Come on, a talent like Kishore would have definitely liked to sing his own songs. There are two factors at play here. First and foremost, Kishore genuinely adored Rafi; I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kishore gave Rafi the chance to playback for him some of his own compositions in the 80s were Rafi alive then. There was a great deal of camraderie among the male singers in that generation. Second, if you consider a film like Raagini, where Rafi playbacked for Kishore, the MD was O. P. Nayyar, who once famously remarked, “Without Rafi there would be no OP”. On top of that, the song “Man more bawra” was semi-classical in nature; other than RD or Bappi, most MDs would prefer Rafi for such songs.
Kishore’s ultimate ambition was to make SD sing under his baton, which remained unfulfilled! Rafi, of course, sang Kishore’s composition for a rupee.
Sudip, I did include “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK (No. 4). I had to leave out quite a few good songs and I agree that “Humdum mere maan bhi jao” would have better demonstrated his range. Select any year in the 60s and you’ll have a problem in identifying the top 20, such was his output those days. You mentioned 1968-69 as being your favourite years. Chirag came out in 1969 and Rafi had two beautiful solos (Teri aankhon ke siva and Chirag dil ko jalawo); the first one was also sung by Lata for her favourite composer, but Rafi’s is the one that is better (my opinion) and much more popular (fact).
Instead of 1969, you could also try the beginning of that decade. In 1960, here are some films that had Rafi’s gems: Kohinoor, Chaudvin ka Chaand, Kala Bazaar, Lal Quila, Barsat ki Raat, Kalpana, Mughal-e-Azam and Bambai ka Babu. Kala Bazaar is known for “Khoya khoya chaand” but listen to “Apni to har aah ik toofan hai”. In Chaudvin ka Chaand, other than the title song, listen to “Mili khak me mohabbat”. Among the many wonderful duets Manna and Rafi sang together, a personal favourite of mine is “Tu hai mera prem devata” from Kalpana. And probably the two ghazals in Lal Quila (Na kisiki aankh ka noor hoon and Lagta nahi hai dil mera) ended Talat’s dominance in that genre.
As I’ve said before, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in selecting your favourite voice. This, to a large extent, depends on your personal likes and dislikes. Among Bengalis, if you include both Hindi and Bengali songs, the favourite male voice is one of the following: Manna, Kishore, Hemanta or Rafi. Some in the older generation still swear by Pankaj Mullick and Debabrata Biswas. But if you restrict yourself to only Hindi songs, it will be either Kishore or Rafi, with the younger generation probably preferring Kishore and the older generation Rafi. Manish made a very interesting observation about the younger generation being much more aware of the Amitabh Bachchan songs than the Dilip Kumar songs. This is called the recency effect and Kishore has a big advantage here. The real test would be 25 years from now when Lata, Asha and (less so) Kishore wouldn’t have such an advantage over Rafi. In my mind, I know which two would be fighting for the title of the “best singer” but I don’t want to start another nasty debate.
I personally feel that Kishore’s voice was terrific during the 1965-76 perod. There were always some rough hues but I think that made the voice more attractive. I have no problems in conceding that he was the king during the 1971-75 period. In the 80s, he may have lost some of the innate sweetness and crispness he had in his voice, but given the quality of the competition then, he could easily rule the charts. In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (“hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore. I personally like the voices of all the great singers, but in terms of male voice, my No. 1 favourite has always been Rafi and female voice it has been Geeta. As a singer, Lata may be much greater than Geeta, but in terms of voice alone, she is my favourite. To each one his own!
Very good observations, Manish, Sudip and Halder.
Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.
>> You dont have to be sorry for that!!!
If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.
>> They are not arguing but taking their important time out by rationally presenting facts although they are not obliged to do it.
>>>Nice to know you abhor these miserable people. I too abhor those few Rafi fans who speak nonsese about KK and others.
I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr ) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.
>> Fair thinking.
To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha
>> Yes but everyone is not like you.
Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion.
>>> I will not diasgree simply because you disagreed to my post which I still stand for as I have seen over the years about the pathetic attititude of so called KK fans.
Kishore Kumar’s popularity remains intact today because he was indeed a GREAT SINGER who changed the course of India Cinema and Music but what makes him EXTRA popular to this day: he was the voice of Amitabh Bachchan.
Amitabh Bachchan is still an active actor maintaining a busy schedule and therefore people still keep him in mind in the present rather than the relatively passive past. As a result of this, they are better AWARE of his greatness and of his past works – and of course, what is tied to Amitabh Bachchan’s greatness is the AMAZING VOICE of Kishore Kumar.
Yes, people know Dilip Kumar or Dharmendra were great actors, but they know it “passively” since these guys are out of the present radar. The voices of these guys was of course, the one and only Mohammed Rafi. Rafi does not get that Amitabh Bachchan benefit that Kishore has. P Haldar was keen to point out that Rafi remained on top in the late 1970s despite Kishore having the advantage that his HEAVY voice better suited the reigning superstar of that time. Nevertheless, Rafi proved to have greater versatility as a playback singer because his voice was just right. Not too deep, not too low and very clean and as a result of this he did seamless playback for dozens of actors. Kishore’s specific deep voice did not suit as many actors.
As a Rafi fan, I liked his rendition of Zindagi Ek Safar better: he displayed better tonal quality i.e. his voice was fuller. In Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, Rafi’s voice was more crisp whereas Kishore’s rendition had a relatively BLUNT and COARSE voice. The operative word here is RENDITION because Kishore could have made his voice more crisp had he wanted in my opinion, as he has demonstrated that ability in other songs like Padosan. At the same time, this goes both ways because the only reason Kishore’s version was more popular was because of the yodelling – Rafi could have yodelled just as well as Kishore if he wanted (but it was looked down upon for a trained singer to do so) – don’t underestimate Rafi’s amazing vocals.