An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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I’m going to make a few, final, concluding remarks on my behalf. This is the first time I have ever engaged in the Rafi-Kishore debate and that is why I was particularly enthusiastic. Going to the Rafi website and seeing 800+ posts – this MONUMENTAL effort from all of us to have a debate is nothing but a drop in the ocean as this debate has been going on for 30+ years and will continue.
My views:
– Mohd Rafi had without a doubt, the most melodious voice of all singers. It was also very “full” – second to none in this regard. If there was any voice close to perfect – it was his. Not too deep not too soft. Just right. It is because of this that Rafi’s voice could universally suit just about any actor and indeed he sang for dozens of actors. The only thing “missing” in his voice was barritione – but barritone closes many more doors than it opens. Additionally, he could make up for it with his modulation and amazing vocal range to amplify energy. He had the best voice overall.
– Kishore’s voice did prove superior in some specific situations – it is these specific situations that KK fans absolutel love and that is why for them KK is #1. That’s fine. Overall, however, I doubt that’d be the case and the repertoire and careers indicate who was more versatile.
– Yes, Kishore was more suited for Amitabh because barritone goes with barritone – but barritone would look silly on the dozens of other actors. While Rafi wasn’t as great of a fit for Amitabh – he still fit very well and mixed his voice very well with Amitabh in John Johnny Janardhan. Singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest – just an example to emphasize barritone.
– There were some songs that Kishore’s voice was better suited for than Rafi’s voice and there was some songs that Rafi’s voice was better suited for than Kishore’s voice (this number is much greater than the first IMO but no one COMPLETELY wins out).
– Arguing who’s voice was the best is subjective. However, I think most people from the industry, when you look at overall from late 40s to 80, when you gauge ALL KINDS of music – would say Rafi was more well rounded. You really can’t deny it by seeing career or polls from such eduated people. Arguing who was better in the limited 70s period is subjective and will lead to endless debate – but do remember the limitation here.
– Kishore was king for a specific period or genre but Rafi was king for almost 4 different periods of times. He did recover to the top with Kishore in 1980 and only someone of his greatness could have pulled off a comeback like that. Rafi had a greater career IMO with a much greater output (~6000 different songs vs ~4000 different songs). Rafi’s voice was more versatile than Kishore’s – as great as Kishore’s voice was.
– Sometimes I do have problems with Rafi when his voice is being too soft or gets fuzzy. Listen to Dard E Dil – when he sings “kur.” Maybe he did it purposely. Rafi’s voice could have flaws at times (especially in late 80s) where his throat sounded dry. MAYBE I’m wrong and it was the equipment (very possible) or the MD direction. Nevertheless, like I said, it was the closest thing to a perfect voice for me.
– Sudip made an excellent point. I have learned something new here. As great as Rafi’s voice and singing ability was – what really made him immortal and his songs incomparably superior to others was his harkatein and taan. His great voice could be challenged by a good voice – but that element I mentioned made the 1000 fold difference.
– I always felt that under VERY LIMITED CONDITIONS (tone, type of song, etc) Udit Narayan could sing a song just as well as Rafi (and that probaby is the case – if the song is simpe enough that it doesn’t require a singer of Rafi’s monumental ability). For example, we agree that Rafi was the greatest singer but if one says Kishore could sing SOME songs better than Rafi (his voice was better suited), then one can also extend and say that Udit Narayan could sing even lesser songs just as good or better than Rafi. These instances are rare but acknowledge that one singer cannot win each and every time. Right singer for right song.
I and Manish Kumar are the same person, it is just that the debate was too boringly one – sided. I don’t think the KK fans did justice to Kishore Kumar at all and made some silly comments that was an embarassment for the great singer so I tried to step in – but I see there’s really no point. This debate will continue again and again.
My final remark is that I genuinely fear we’ll lose both Rafi & Kishore. They are eternal singers getting more popular by the day – but today’s music is utter garbage and I get depressed being exposed to it. Today’s music sells on half naked people like a MTV music video rather than the brilliant lyrics, composers, and vocalists our great country has such a rich tradition of. I hope the values of music don’t go down so much that tomorrow’s generation will not be able to appreciate Rafi and Kishore.
It was a great pleasure discussing with you guys. I really learned a lot and had to think about this stuff and gain new perspective. I don’t have the kind of knowledge that say Sudip or P Haldar have where off the top of his head he can produce a top 20 list (that is true knowledge gained with experience and time) but I’m enthusiastic. I love Rafi and I love Kishore too and other singers. I discovered a few new songs for Rafi – a few new gems that I hadn’t heard of before.
That Asha Rafi duet with Madhubala & Dev Anand (he’s crap) was lovely. Can’t believe that song was like 30 years before I was born and I loved it. Sudip also pointed out very well that somtimes a person has to listen to a song multiple times to get it and love it. I thought I was the only one.
Thanks very much, hope to discuss with you guys in the future. I don’t post very frequently but every now and then I do stop by this web page or the Rafi webpage and sometimes I post at HamaraForums under my name. However, I do sometimes start trouble at HF cause I enjoy discussion I get bored of the super polite gestures – let’s get talking.
I also do have some radical views that make me look silly. I think we should never put singers at a godly pedestal and I feel today’s two singers Alka Yagnik and Udit Narayn deserve a little more credit. Hang me, but even though Lata is greater than Alka, a handful of songs Lata could not render better such as “Tu Shayar Hai” from Saajan or “Choli Ke Peeche.”
Anyway, I hope we discuss again. I very much enjoyed it and learned a lot and have a lot more learning to do.
– Manish Kumar, Philadelphia, PA, USA
Viswan ji….
Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
By this comment – Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
in defending the in-defensible…
So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
majestically passes..
Pl. do not take them seriously… over these illiterate jokers.
IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.
Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
quite well…..
In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
binu nair
Sanjay wrote: “He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true – even if someone had his vocals – they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline – Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi – despite the voice and ability being superb.”
-I agree with Sanjay just as he agrees with me. Rafi had an excellent voice that had unique abilities like huskiness, an inherent pathos, sweetness, the ability to switch scale. But when you get into a discussion of “best voice” rather than “best singer” (note the difference), it gets subjective. As Sanjay said Kishore’s voice had lot of youthfulness , energy and masculinity. Similarly, Mukesh and Jagjit had enviable basses. Bhupinder and Yesudas had good depth. You can slice and dice and debate-it is difficult to arrive at “THE VOICE”.
–Rafi’s uniqueness was in his taan and harkatein. And mind you the songs Sanjay is referring to are Rafi songs that Sonu is trying to imitate. He knows exactly what harkatein to perform, still he comes short. I was listening to a song from recent film “Hum dil de chuke sanam”- “Jhoka hawa ka aaj bhi” by Hariharan. It is very good song. I thought it is one current song that had all musical and lyrical elements of a great song, but it will just be good, never a timeless great..Rafi with his style could have made it great!
–The other point about Rafi is Rafi exudes his sweetness from the navel. This was stated by Anandji and becomes obvious if you see the live videos in youtube. When someone sings sweet (such as Sonu and Abhijeet), one usually sings from the throat. Rafi had a very profound depth which came from his gut. It is a very subtle point. That makes him sweet even in so-called “macho” songs like “Main jaat yamla”…And just like Anandji, I also think is the biggest difference between his clones and him.
Viswan ji….
Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
for their comment – Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
in defending the in-defensible…
So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
passes….
Pl. do not take them seriously…
IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.
Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
quite well…..
In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
binu nair
Stupid Kishore fan, nothing Hindu-Muslim here. Are you a politician?
to rate rafis voice as thin and femine is only intented to tarnish the reputation of agreat singer.no real music lover could say so.listen the words of kj jesudas.he consider rafi as his inspiration and greatest singer of india.ithink kj is very close to rafi as a singer with real sweet voice
Mr. haldar, Rafiji was very popular in London also.
Sanjay wrote:
“That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes – Kishore is #1.”
–This is exactly the “Recency factor” that Haldar and others mentioned earlier in the thread. There will come a time when Saigal, Rafi and Kishore will be equi-distant in terms of time. The real evaluation would start then.
I am not sure if you follow current music. Current music is trying to get out of the Sanu, Abhijeet, Vinod Rathod, Sudesh Bhosle genre- a trend of oversimplified open-throated singing started by KK. Sanu, Babul, Vinod and (to some extent) Abhijeet have been shown the door by fans.
-Most films these days have sufi style qawwalis, soft songs and some item numbers. There are very few action songs. If Kishore and Rafi (imagine at their peak) were singing today, most songs in Gangster, Kalyug, Metro, (and the Himesh, Rahman ones) compositions would go to Rafi.
-In all these films (take Gangster for example) different genres have been tried out, which kind of relates back to the 60s (take the “Hum dono” or “Mere Sanam” examples). The difference is that now 5 singers are singing the 5 different genres. In the 60s one person could sing them all-that was RAFI.
As in Sonu had a good voice too (not as good as Rafi’s but good) – but what made the 1000 fold difference was the taan and harkatein. That made Rafi’s version 1000X better for me.
P Haldar wrote:
“Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects”
—I never meant Kishore is more popular than Rafi. What I meant is I do not care for that, even if that be so. I can concede that. In ancient Greece and Rome, art was esoteric. If art is democratized, you will always get “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy”. By the simple 80:20 rule, 80% opinions do not count, except for the day of election. My 8-year old son thinks I am better in Math than Einstein..What does it prove? Anyway, this is my personal opinion.
Binu wrote: “And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
Does singing affect the heart and its working…?”
–Interesting.. And they dies almost at the same age.. But the Mangeskar sisters are alive.
Sanjay wrote:”However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.”
–Exactly… As I said before I myself converted. I do not belong to the Rafi generation. The first Rafi song I heard at length (I had followed snippets earlier of other songs) was way after Rafi’s death. It was “Meri Kahani bhoolnewale”.
Kishore is like whisky. It immediately strikes you. Rafi is like wine..It slowly gets on you. There are so many songs which I started linking after hearing for the nth time.
Sanjay wrote: “This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.”
-So we agree on the basic principle though our opinions about KK and Rafi are reverse. The two songs you picked are LP songs. LP songs are generally attractive and full of embellishments. Even Mukesh’s hit numbers from Milan and DHarti kahen pukar ke were attractive. Rafi sang lot of sad songs for LP. The few ones devoid of energy are “Woh Jab yaad aye” (but this was the first LP film-Parasmani) and “Akela hoon main” (Jaal).
He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true – even if someone had his vocals – they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline – Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi – despite the voie and ability being superb.
The site and this subject has become a hit thanks to
Mohd Rafi in the Kishore Kumar site. In the movies, in halls
and stadiums, in the recording rooms and every where RAFI
saab was a hit..
He came as a nobody became a hero and went away as a hero…… Mumba-ites, music lovers & citizens will never forget July 31st 1980,
when the GODS called RAFI SAAB BACK…. it will be 27 years of
melody-less years.
And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
Does singing affect the heart and its working…?
binu nair….
I agree with myk on the “voice” aspect; Rafi’s voice in the 50s and 60s was a notch above everyone else’s. Also, you’ll have to realize that Rafi sung in multiple voices (Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, Shammi Kapoor, Dev Anand, Dharmendra,…), so it’s possible that you like one voice of his better than another. Kishore also had a very good voice during that period but he remained under-utilised as someone pointed out earlier. Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects. If you are talking about Kolkata, that may be true, but if you are talking about the whole world, it’s difficult to beat Rafi. One can understand Punjabis loving Rafi. But how do you explain Rafi’s popularity in places like Kerala and Andhra Pradesh? If you go to places like Birmingham and Manchester, Rafi is the favourite singer among Indians there. The Birmingham Symphony orchestra is actually recording a number of Rafi songs in the voice of Sonu. That voice is gold; I still don’t understand how anyone can call it “thin” or “feminine”. Is Sudesh Bhosle the current benchmark for a good voice?
That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes – Kishore is #1.
MYK:
You talk about the greatness of Rafi’s voice. Of course it is GREAT. Think about it this way. A lot of Kishore fans don’t care for the kind of songs from the 50s and 60s. They only care for the kinds of songs in the 1970s and 1980s. The ones that demand a powerful barritone for strength. They care for sad and romantic songs too (we’ve seen this in the 70s) but don’t care for songs that require too much classical training.
What kind of singer would such an audience like? Kishore Kumar. Whose voice would be BEST for this kind of genre? Kishore Kumar’s (before you argue this – I want that list). If you go for OVERALL SINGING with ALL KINDS of songs than I think Rafi wins easy – but it depends on the value of the fans. Lots of fans who grew up in the 70s are enchanted with that kind of music (and remember – the 70s 80s genre is big enough that it is a world of its own). This “limitation” is very broad one.
If people don’t care for ghazals and qawwalis but are within certain limits (that are broad nevertheless) (and MILLIONS are) and it is just about voice and not training – then Kishore Kumar can truly contend to be #1 among those fans. Kishore’s setback in the early period was NEVER his amazing voice – it was training.
You have to fit a singer for you purposes. Not everyone likes EVERY KIND of song. And fors specific categories – KK is #1. His voice is best. Even his limitations leave for a BIG WORLD – his great and vast career with many kinds of songs.
MYK:
1. “This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.”
Please do! List me AS MANY songs as you can think where Rafi has something close to the POWERFUL TONE of Kishore Kumar. I’m VERY interested.
I predict you’ll give a list of strong tonal quality but it’ll never be quite as powerful as Kishore’s rendition. How can it? Barritone is a good thing and a bad thing. Someone with a baritone could never sing “Din Dhal Jaye.” Just as it allows you – it also limits you. It’s OK that Rafi didn’t have baritone. His HUSKY voice and his TONE were excellent even without.
I anxiously wait for a list – make it as long as good as you can.
2. “What modulation are you talking about?” ; “Kishore did not have a versatile voice.”
He could change his voice to mellow and smooth to suite the an emotional or heartfelt number – Chingari Koi Badkhe (Amar Prem) or Aane Wala Pal (Golmal) sound very different from his trademark booming, powerful voice from say “Apni to Jaise Taise” from Laawaris. He could change his voice to match a drunk Amitabh in Sharabi. That’s undeniable modulation and versatility, for me.
3. “Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs.”
If Kishore didn’t have the voice – then how could he reach such heights (and ONLY HE) to contend with Rafi? You can question anything about Kishore – his career or his training – but NOT his AMAZING VOICE.
4. “If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70’s were not as difficult as in the 50’s or 60’s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70’s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50’s and 60’s, the 70’s was a different period.”
True, compositions in the 50s were much more difficult. However, in an artistic sense, an easier composition is no less to me. I loved music from the 70s (and late 60s with Rafi gems – I CANNOT believe that Rafi declined in 1969 – I can think of a dozen Rafi FAVORITES from that year alone and the songs of Aradhana were different but not better). That is not entirely relevant to the value of the song.
5. “If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70’s.”
My favorite Rafi-Lata duet is actually “Teri Bindiya Re” from 1973 – the “lowest” point of Rafi’s career. There’s pure magic in his voice in that song. The story of Abhimaan was completely ruined when they choose Rafi to do playback (I thought the female voice was supposed to be better in the movie than the males – certainly not in that song).
6. “Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back.”
That should be told to people as a motivational period. Tell people, “even the great Kishore Kumar struggled and was about to give up. He never did though – kept persisting – and see what a rich career he had from 1969-1987” think how much he’d have missed had he given up.”
7. “Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev.
Yes that is true – but Kishore sang his own classics for Dev.
8. “Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.”
Just for my own curiosity – who sang more for Dev Anand (not that this means greatness – I don’t care for Dev Anand just curious). Rafi or Kishore?
“Rafi can never emulate Bacchan.”
Actually, it is that Bachchan can never emulate Rafi. Anyway, for all Rafi fans out there, I’d like to hear more about the “Naseeb incident.” Amitabh and Rafi were to record the duet “Chal Mere Bhai.” I hear that both arrived around noon for recording. Both appeared restless. Amitabh said, “I couldn’t sleep last night knowing that I’d be recording with a such a legend like you.” Rafi said something like, “I couldn’t get much sleep either knowing I’d record with such a tall super star like you.” At that, Amitabh fell to Rafi’s feet.
Does anyone have more details or something to add to that anecdote. I’m very interested. I’m also interested in what Amitabh had to say of Rafi – since Amitabh was the superstar of the time and coincidentally Rafi’s “just right” voice was not perfect for Amitabh’ deep barritione (he is a lousy singer btw).
1. “I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there.”
I can live with that. Definitely people like SJ or Lata Mangeshkar have greater authority than a fan with these accounts. However, I’m sometimes skeptical of magazines and such because there are a lot of politics and sometimes people are biased (certainly the case with someone like Anil Biswas). I do agree with the general notion.
2. “And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.”
That is also true but I just want to add that Mohd Rafi, Kishore Kumar, and Lata Mangeshkar sound EXCELLENT when performing live – without equipment. The 1983 concert at Wembley – Lata & Kishore sang some songs even better than the studio version. Rafi’s live version song (the one you posted) – even better than the film version – love the last seconds of it (although he did do it again when a more mature singer).
3. “Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.”
I am better informed now. Good to know.
4. “Talat Mehmood perished because of #2.”
I’ve only heard one song of his – Chana Jor Gharam Babu. I liked his part of the song – but I did feel it was way too soft. Such a voice can’t thrive in the action era. Mohd Rafi’s voice could be strong if needed – it is a testament to his greatness, his ability, his versatility, his magic, that whatever the times – he was always #1 from late 1940s right till his death. NO ONE else could have done (nor did it).
5. “Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments.”
Exactly.
6. “Sau baar janam lenge”
Incidentally, I’ve had this one my golden collection set for a long time (I have all 9 CDs of Rafi). First time I heard it. It is rendered very well. Someone who knows Hindi and is familiar with classic music will appreciate this. However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.
7. “Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition.”
This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.” This is one of the most PERFECTLY RENDERED songs I have ever heard. Trouble is, it is supposed to be a sad song. When I hear it, I become so elated, so impressed, so taken back by the perfection of the voice and the small details of expression (harkatein and taan) that it seems weird as to why Waheeda Rehman is crying. Yes, the voice has sadness as he sings “Patthar” but the overall superiority of the rendition overcomes that sadness.
That is a big problem with Rafi – sometimes his voice and rendition is too good for sad songs. His song “Kush Rahe Tu Sada” – again, I’m half half. He gives the right emotions of sadness, but I’m just amazed at his melody – listen to that last line of the song – how melodious his voice is! It is so impressive that you lose sadness. Same problem with “Tere Galiyon Mein” from Hawas. Right emotions – but superiority of voice and rendition make you say “wow” rather than cry.
On the other hand, Kishore’s voice is not as rich as Rafi’s. It always has that strength (baritone) but the energy can be removed as Kishore
modulates his voice to be mellow.
Mukesh is a great singer and one of my favorites – he had his niche in the industry and was irreplaceable and an all time great. However, his voice wasn’t as rich as Kishore’s and certainly not as rich as Rafi’s and that is why he was the best for sad songs. If he sang “Patthar Ke Sanam” – the song wouldn’t be nearly as good as Rafi’s – but it would do the job of making the song sad better – because his voice isn’t as rich. The saddest song I’ve ever heard was “Dost Dost Na Rahe” from Sangam, but my favorite sad song that also actually does make me sad is “O Saathi Re” and it proves that Kishore is great for sad songs when he modulates his voice.
In “O Saathi Re” Kishore maintains his voice strength (baritone naturally makes it strong) but reduces the energy by slowing down and modulating his voice to be mellow. It isn’t that same powerful voice from the songs of say, “Janemun Tum Kamal Kharti Ho” from Trishul. However, that heavy voice sounds like it is coming from a sad – HEAVY heart. It sounds like it is coming from a powerful person who is made helpless yet the strong baritone retains clarity. That depresses the hell out of me. His heavy, rough voice actually helps to make the song sad. The song DOES need a little bit of “wow” else you’ll be too bored to listen to it. It needs to be just “fun enough” that you’re all ears.
“meri Awaaz suno”
This is also in my collecton. The song is rendered very well.
“The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. ”
–So what happened to your parents? Or are they anonymous as well?
>>>Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.
Filmfare awards don’t make a singer better than the other. Madan Mohan hardly got any awards, are you going to tell me Nadeem Shravan who have won more awards are better than him ?.
So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse.
Maybe lame to you but indeed the truth. Kishore had no competition after 1980.
>>>If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.
LOL and where is Kishore in all this. The government hasn’t even considered Kishore for a Padma Shree, so where are you getting with this argument of yours ?. Its totally bogus. Awards don’t speak about talent.
>>>Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.
Really ?. I don’t think this is the view of the majority of musicians and industry insiders. AB is overhyped big time, no big deal.
>>>The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.
Not really, Rafi could sing classical songs as good and even better than Manna owing to his pure range. All the sur and taal of rafi cannot be learnt, it is as you put it, “God Gifted”, sorry to say Kishore is miles behind in this aspect.
Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar.
Wrong comparison buddy, Dilip is regarded as the Icon of Acting even by the overhyped Amitabh, none is comparable to him just as none is comparable to Rafi in playback singing. Show me a list of genres that Kishore has truly covered, I am sure you’ll have a tough time coming up with it.
>>>The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.
This is truly subjective, you’re not proving anything.
>>>The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).
LOL and you are getting this info from ?. Do you speak for these people, are you their PR man ?.
>>>To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.
Really, you must be kidding me truly, I really have doubts about your musical background.
Anonymous : U are expressing a very sectarian view ..
but I agree that u have a right to say it ; just as we have
the right to say : Mohd Rafi – is the most influential playback
of our time…. No singer alike his capacity or ability has surfaced
so far … and will never surface …. is my guess…..
We can have many Kishore Kumars – for his songs were very
easy and a large number of people can sing it….
on the contrary, even trained singers find it difficult to sing
RAFI songs.. and they come somewhere near to 60% only I guess..
However , we love Kishore Kumar songs – the number of these
does’nt matter …
binu nair…
Sanjay wrote:
“>>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.”
–Sanjay: I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there. And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.
Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.
–Talking of technicalities, Kishore’s rise owed as much to technology as to the Burmans. Towards the end of the 60’s two things happened on the technology front. 1. More instrumentation owing to Western influence 2. Introduction of a more sensitive recording systems, that would capture every breath and accentuate every ups or downs. I learnt from Manna De’s account that Talat Mehmood perished because of #2. Talat’s quivering voice was over-accentuated by the sensitive recording equipment, so much so, that he had to leave the playback singing scene entirely. Everyone struggled other than Kishore. Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments. Manna also mentioned that despite initial struggles, Rafi was able to adapt to it thanks to his relentless “riyaz”.
–Talking of voice, you did mention the energy in Kishore’s voice which is undeniable. But you forgot (or you do not care for) the natural HUSKINESS in Rafi’s voice that makes it seductive and haunting. Kishore could have well sung “Sau baar janam lenge”, but he would never have the huskiness that makes the song mystic and haunting..That was natural in Rafi. Kishore’s voice was drier, with less drama in it.
–The other aspect of Kishore’s voice was that because of the power and energy it lacked the melancholy that sad songs needed. The richness in the voice was so much (I hold the same opinion about Asha Bhosle) that it would never make one depressed. Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition. A sad song is NOT supposed to raise a “WOW!!!”, it is supposed to make depressed over days. A sad song should have ZERO embellishments and should soak the listener in misery. That’s what Mukesh was so good at. If you listen to the “Do Badan” songs (which is possibly the only film with 4 sad songs), you feel sad. None of the songs have any energy, nor any glamor…While I would rarely repeat those songs on my stereo (other than Raha Gardishon Mein Hardam), there lies the real success in their rendition. Sounds paradoxical?? It is like a villain. A villain should make you hate him. Similarly a sad song should make you hate it! Rafi goes very close (to me, higher than) Mukesh in achieving that. Kishore puts a lot of feeling in those songs, and leaks the voice once in a while to make it sound good, but I doubt he really depresses anyone. If I had to commit suicide I would possibly listen to Rafi’s “meri Awaaz suno” before hanging myself-so depressing, so much pathos!!
Sudip,
Agree with your comments however I feel one of Rafi’s most strongest points was definitely his voice. It was so unique, no rough edges, no shrillness, not alot of bass and not too thin, just perfect with the ability to modulate for each and every actor. Add to this the melody and sweetness factor and there hasn’t been a better voice in the industry than his. You cannot compare his voice to that of anyone else’s, its out of reach.
Rafi would have definitely got alot more songs for Amitabh had he lived in the 80’s. Really though, singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest singer.
I am glad that someone else has pointed out “Nain Lad Jai Hain”. It’s so pure that you’d think that a Bhojpuri folk singer is singing it. Naushad never compromised and ultimately paid a heavy price. There’s another Rafi song in that genre that most of you may not have even heard. It’s “Pipara ke patwa” composed by Pt. Ravi Shankar for Godaan, based on Munshi Premchand’s famous short story. I didn’t find it on youtube or musicindiaonline, otherwise I’d have sent you the link. Another beautiful song in this genre is Manna’s “Chalat musafir” from Teesri Kasam, composed by Shankar.
In folk, my favourite MDs are SD, SJ, Salil, Naushad, OP and RD. While Naushad was influenced by the folk music of UP and Bihar, OP brought bhangra and punjabi rhythm to the fore. Salil, SD and RD were all influenced by the folk music of the northeast (Assam, Manipur, Sikkim, Nepal) but SD had the added advantage of himself being an exponent of bhatiyali (Bengal’s boatman song). From where Shankar (a Punjabi who grew up in AP) and Jaikishan (a Gujarati) received their influences, I’m not sure; all I can say is that right from Barsaat all the way down to Mera Naam Joker, they produced magic. But never discount Raj Kapoor’s influence; that man undestood music.
Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.
So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse. Statistics dont lie.
If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.
Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.
The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.
Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar. The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.
The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).
To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.
Sanjay:
Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.
“Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”
—I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism”, accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):
“Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.
The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.
In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.
As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As Lataji rightly pointed out, “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya”, the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se”, the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.
There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways, because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears, Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.
Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is destined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.
1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.
2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.
3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.
Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song, listen to another Bhojpuri-“Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular, and the second one is authentic Bhojpuri.
——————-
Sanjay:
Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.
“Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”
—I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism” accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):
“Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.
The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.
In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.
As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As rightly pointed out “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya” the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se” the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.
There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.
Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is detined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.
1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.
2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.
3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.
Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song listen to “Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular and the second one is authentic.
——————-
Dear Sanjay,
I went quickly through your recent posts and feel bad that I reacted rather quickly to one of your earlier posts regarding rock ‘n roll music. You are a very knowledgabe KK fan and I have the utmost respect for such people. And I agree that Kishore could have been used much more often than he was in the 50s and the 60s.
There’s one point I’d like to make, though. I think you guys are making too much of songs like “Khaike pan banaras-wala”. Someone on this forum had remarked earlier that this is the best folk song ever. The popularity of this song may have more to do with the fact that Amitabh sang it for a hit film. Kishore has so many other songs that are infinitely better than “Khaike pan”. Folk music is not Kishore’s forte; he may have sung a few good folksy songs, but the real players there are Lata, Manna, Rafi and Mukesh (of course, I’m ignoring regional singers like Nirmalendu Choudhury who was simply superb).
The younger generation does not watch Dilip Kumar, that’s why I guess they are not aware of “Nain Lad Jai Hain”, the gem Rafi sang for him in Gunga Jumna. It’s one of my favourite Naushad compositions. Listen to Rafi’s Bhojpuri enunciation and the force with which he sang. You’ll have to concede that Rafi had a 7-year disadvantage when it came to Amitabh and those seven years could have further tilted the popularity scale in his favour had he been alive. Surely, if Munna Aziz and Shabbir Kumar could have got so many songs in the 80s (including RD’s), Rafi would have grabbed many more. Don’t you agree?
Finally, I would like to know your views on “Khaike pan” vis-a-vis the eternal favourite from Shree 420: “Ramaiya Vastavaiya”.
>>>Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.
Kishore does not fail but its a total mistake comparing him with Rafi in any genre. What modulation are you talking about ?. Could he sound like any actor he playbacked for with the exception of Dev and Rajesh Khanna. Kishore did not have a versatile voice, if he did his career would have taken off much before 1970.
>>>You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”
He struggled because he simply could not sing any type of song. The music in the 50’s and 60’s was much richer in terms of compositions, MD’s etc. compared to the 70’s. The majority did not want to take a chance with Kishore and that is understandable. Who is taking Kishore of the 70’s and sending him to the 50’s ?.
>>>Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing.
Less art ?. I don’t know what you mean by that, it was quite a creative period.
>>>This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).
Not really, they didn’t miss anything at all because Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs. Yes, Rafi was there and in that sense they were very lucky.
>>>A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore.
Do you know whay he did that ?. First of all Kishore became popular so he catered to him, secondly both him and RD felt that since KK had lost out in the 50’s and 60’s, here was a chance for him to get many songs. If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70’s were not as difficult as in the 50’s or 60’s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70’s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50’s and 60’s, the 70’s was a different period. If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70’s.
>>>In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice.
Not really, it had alot to do with what you mentioned. Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back. Without the Burmans, I think things would be different.
>>>MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.
What magic are you talking about ?. For this very reason, lack of is why MD’s did not go to him. He was very much there from the late forties, there was no prejudiced against him, its just that he wasn’t considered even a second rate singer at that time. I don’t think making up excuses is going to get us anywhere.
>>>Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers.
S-J made it big because of their musical talent, intitally RK helped them, but after that their music sold, without the help of anyone.
I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK).
It was SDB who fixed KK on Dev right from before, and Dev and KK were also good friends so its understandable. Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev. Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.
>>>Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered.
Times changed, KK got a break, no bias here.
My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice.
Totally disagree, Kishore did not have a quarter of the voice Rafi had. He was good in his own way, but not a versatile voice able to cover many genres as well as modulate for every actor.
>>>He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight.
Kalyanji made the comment, that KK was not suited for the 50’s and 60’s. Take Rafi, he was suited for any decade, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s.
>>>Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.
Yes he should have been given more gems, but MD’s knew his weaknesses and did not take him for the majority of their numbers. Unless you’re saying MD’s did not know what they were doing back then.
>>>I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar.
This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. Sounding Booming and Resounding is my opinion does not make a singer great. Kishore did not have as meledious nor as sweet a voice as Rafi so maybe he had to sing like that in order to make up for it. To me that’s just loud, and not what singing is about.
>>>It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.
It went ALL ways for Rafi, he could sing softly, with punch, melediously, any type of voice and Rafi is there.
>>>I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized.
No one is saying he could not sing romantic songs. For me Kishore is not middle ground. For me his voice was good but not as sweet and clear as Rafi, definitely not versatile, his bass could not cover up the other facets that his voice did not have.
>>>On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different).
I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.
>>>This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.
Not really but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If his voice had it all, he would not have to wait 20 + years for a break. Ofcourse we have been hearing excuses as to why this did not happen.
Kishore was a good singer within his own range, but the problem is comparing him with Rafi, they are two poles apart.
Shridip,
>>>If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.
Really, which is why he was judged at the best male singer by a group of musicians including your Kishore clones. He is very popular around the world, his popularity increases day by day, unless you have facts to back your arguments, don’t write such pathetic comments.
>>>The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.
This is purely subjective.
>>>If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.
What’s with this Rajesh K and Amitabh superstardom ?. Because Kishore sang the majority for them it doesn’t prove anything. You actually want to think that Kishore would have added the same dimension to Rajendra K or Shammi that Rafi did ?. This is outright hilarious.
>>>Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda.
LOL modern film music was brought in with the likes of S-J, definitely not Kishore. Amit Kumar, Abhijeet and Kumar Sanu are nothing special.
>>>Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only.
Please tell me you don’t really mean this because if you do, there is no point in taking this discussion further.
>>>Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.
Really, which is why he dominated the field for such a long time, which is why he sang in each and every possible genre, both things Kishore could not do. So now who do you think was the best ?. Your argument for classical tradition holds no ground as it doesn’t even relate to what you’re talking about. Btw Rafi set the benchmark of playback singing and took the art to such a high level, if that’s not a tradtion then nothing by anyone else is.
>>>Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means – In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best.
Really, so with the likes of Mukesh, Talat, Hemant, Manna etc. there was no one around ?. Its no wonder you dislike classical singing, because Kishore had no classical training at all and even if he did he still would not have reached Rafi’s standards.
>>>I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious.
Really, why so ?.
>>>If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.
Who says we would like to put them in that category ?. Same with putting those classical specialists in film music, they will be rejected a thousand times more. What’s your point here ?
>>>So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..
Why is it too hard to accept the truth ?. You can go on and on about Kishore, but whatever silly arguments you come out with won’t change the fact that Rafi was the benchmark, the supreme. Btw Rafi did have greater voice quality and greater music knowlegde.
So, as people are making allegations that bengali people like kishore, as he is a “bengali”, I see some “muslims” are fighting for Rafi. Is it just a coincidence? Go to your “Rafi website” and show the affection.
Perhaps later I will better clarify what I mean by ‘fuzzy.’ not now
Now I realize that my saying some Rafi classics could be better rendered by KK is heretic. That heresy is two sided. A watershed song for KK was indeed “Mere Sapano Ki Rani” (coincidentally, Rafi sang a song of the same title with KL Saigal). It was actually meant for Rafi and it isn’t a stretch for some Rafi fans to argue (heretically) that the Rafi version would have been superior. Some have committed the heresy of choosing Rafi’s version of Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana – I don’t hold it against them – you really can’t go wrong either way.
I’ve said many times that Rafi’s voice could get too soft and therefore fuzzy. When you sing at a low pitch, the frequency is lower so the wavelength is greater and therefore the resolution (detail clarity of voice) can suffer. I do believe that if Rafi recorded with today’s technology, I probably would not have made those complaints.
Listen to Dard E Dil: my golden collection version is 7:03 long. Listen to his voice at 2:53 when he sings “kur” rahi hai shayari. The way his voice sounds when he sings “kur.” It sounds worn (although many 1980 Rafi songs where his voice is par excellent – John Johnny Janardhan comes immediately to mind – no one could have sung that song better than Rafi). He probably deliberately did it. I wonder why, I’m just curious. Perhaps an artistic decision. Maybe I’m looking into it too microscopically.
btw…i revise my review of
Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon
He doesn’t sound fuzzy at any moment, just very soft. Silly me.
“He never would say : give this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am saying this…here..”
>>> Kishore Kumar understood that some songs are better suited for a specific singer. Just as Rafi could not sing AS WELL as Kishore the song “Khaike Pan Banaraswala” (now I know that this song isn’t musically elegant but what’s more important is how Kishore can take such a song like that and make it a classic with his energy), there are some Rafi songs that Kishore could not sing AS well (vice versa). You should not take a jab at Kishore like this when he is being considerate, when he is being human, is being humble and respectful of Mohd Rafi.
The producers and distributors would always
dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
almost three decades in the hindi film industry….
>>> The same can be said for Kishore Kumar in the 70s and 80s.
Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….
More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
else included then I will bet and lose my – last penny….
More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
century by the Times of India Publications – survey….
So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
not hold water…
>>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.
Kishore Kumar’s unmatched energy is a big deal. It is that energy that makes him so popular among the youth (not just RDB’s type of music). Lots of energy and vigor is something that can be immediately and naturally be recognized by anyone – even a child who doesn’t know the language. KK is unmatched in that kind of energy and power and that is why he is so popular today.
Btw – as great of a singer Mohd Rafi was, he needed composers to make the most of his abilities (and vice versa). Remember, a great reason (not the greatest) for Rafi’s decline was that his MDs declined – Jaikishan’s death was a big blow to him. RDB took the lead and he shunned Rafi (to be different, not out of hostility or prejudice).
Part of being a great fan is accepting a singer being human. I am happy with Kishore Kumar for all his ups and downs. If I try to repaint the picture and artificially improve him, he is no longer Kishore Kumar and that is ultimate disrespect.
1. “To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.”
Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.
You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”
Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing. This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).
A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore. In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice. MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.
Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers. I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK). Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered. My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice. He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight. Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.
2. “If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.
If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!”
I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar. It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.
3. “I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.”
I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized. On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different). This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.
A. Kabhi Khud pe
Nope, I don’t see strong tonal strength here. Voice sounds kind of fuzzy. However, I think it has more to do with poor quality of recording and the MD’s directions (they told him to sing soft).
B. “Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)”
I agree. Rafi shows great tonal ability here. Amazing! While I keep emphasized powerful and booming – that has limitations too (unless you’re KK). Rafi was one of the few whose voice was just right. I greatly enjoyed this song.
C. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
Good, strong tone here. Really enjoyed the song too. I have to question the recording equipment. I still think that had KK sung this one, his inflections wouldn’t be as great as Rafi’s. His deeper voice would result in a slightly better enunciation of the words. Both versions would be gems.
D. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
I notice moments in the song where Rafi goes to high pitch and then quickly shifts down. Asha Bhosle cited this as his greatest trait. I don’t think KK would have been able to sing this song exactly like Rafi with that kind of effortless scaling or level of inflection. However, I do think Rafi’s voice gets too soft sometimes and as a result that appears fuzzy. Maybe the obviously poor recording equipment didn’t do justice but KK wouldn’t have that issue for me of fuzziness for me. When Rafi sings “Nigahen” it is too soft for me sometimes.
E. “Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya”
AMAZING SONG! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE SONG! HIS VOICE HERE IS AMAZING. This is what I call TONAL STRENGTH and VOICE QUALITY and ENUNCIATION. I think the biggest issue is my personal preference against MDs preference for soft voice. I really liked this one.
“Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.”
Aha! Who says Kishore was capable of ONLY powerful, resounding? He could sing it mellow too with his versatile voice. Don’t generalize his voice! However, I think that Mohd Rafi’s voice was the most melodious of all male singers.
A. “Abhi na jao chod kar”
I think the Kishore Kumar of 1979 who sang “Aane Wala Pal” or the songs from the 1950s would be able to sing this song very well. I’m not certain it’d be better than Rafi’s version, but he’d still do a great rendering of this song. He would sound FAR from horrible.
B. “Door rehkar na karo baat”
This was a pretty loud and booming song if you ask me. I can’t tell if it is the recording equipment that screwed up some parts and made it sound fuzzy or if the voice got too soft at points (low frequency and so the resolution decreases i.e. reduced clarity of words). Great – sung well by Rafi, but I think Kishore’s superior voice would have been even better for this song. I’ll say millions of fans would agree with me as would RD Burman. Only problem is, there are moments in the song where KK cannot match the high pitch. Rafi’s scale was amazing.
B. “Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega”
This song would sound great in Kishore’s CRISP, CLEAN, TONED, and romantic voice. The singer that sang for Dilli Ka Thug would do this song full justice. A little modifications would have to be made for Kishore to optimize him, but he could sing this song very well. His voice is amazing. I’m imagining this song in Kishore’s voice (NOT 1970s Kishore – not rough or too deep Kishore – that’d sound horrible – 1950s Kishore). It amazes me how biased MDs were to overlook such a great voice.
D. “Tum se kahoon ek baat”
Agreed. NO ONE could have sung this song better than Rafi. BRILLIANTLY sung. His voice sounds amazing here. Thanks for this great gem.
E. “Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar”
Another amazing gem. KK could not have sung this song as well as Rafi – and this song was from late 60s I think when KK was catching up to Rafi. Great inflections here – few could match it. What a voice!
You might as well have added “Din Dhal Jaye.” Agree with SD, no one could have sang that gem better than Rafi Sahab. Amazing. One of the most brilliantly rendered songs ever.
“You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.”
I agree. Rafi was the most capapble singer of all. As mentioned before, Kalyanji-Anandji said that Rafi was the only singer for whom they never even considered IF he could sing the song they were composing.
“It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.”
I must have poorly expressed myself. I don’t question Rafi’s scaling ability – that’d be utterly stupid. However, when you do go to an extremely high pitch (the 5th Rakhwale on the live version of that gem), you’re not at ease and it is will show. Perhaps by strained I flet that his throat was kind of dry there in some parts of a song (no kidding, a glass of water would have helped). Don’t mean to sound disrespectful to the great Mohd Rafi. Sometime I’ll elaborate those parts. Just listening to Dard E Dil right now – what a voice.
While Rafi was a more capable singer (scale, inflections, etc) and second to none (if not #1) when it came to conveying emotions and AMAZING personality Kishore Kumar was just as good on the latter and his voice was SUPERIOR. His voice had everything AT THE SAME TIME – that is truly amazing. Mellow yet powerful. Contradictory but possible with Kishore’s voice. Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam was a mellow song sung with yet a powerful tone. KK’s superior voice raised him him to the top for me.
rafi was the best and will remain the best, kishoreda was good in his own way but not comparable with rafi who had a golden voice, sweet, natural, melodious, undescribeable voice, god given voice.
a voice that is still today being revered not only in india but also in places like senegal and many african countries whose natives dont speak or understand hindi but when they hear rafis voice they go in a trance for rafis magical voice.
Shridip:
:Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda”
-VERY TRUE..THat’s why 1985-1995 was the DARK AGE of Hindi fim music when trash like “Gutur gutur” or “Halwawala aa gaya” or “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy” were produced. Likewise Bengali music went down the drains, never to recover.
Only recently we see some revival with Gangster, Lagaan, Dil Chahta Hai. If you follow the recent trends, the focus is on high pitch Sufi style composition. Take Gangster or Kalyug, for example. The Rahat Fateh Ali (Tujhe dekhkar sona) or Zubeen (Ya Ali) numbers are essentially Rafi-style numbers. I cannot think of a single A.R. Rahman song that is sung in Kishore style (he clearly prefers soft voices).
Rajesh Khanna’s last films were totally flopped, in all these flop movies, KK had sung for Rajesh Khanna, why KKs songs didn’t help the movies or the ex-superstar??
Shridip, No one has nice and sweet voice than Rafiji, Kishore had harsh voice, it was just his luck he got Aradhana. Fully agreed that no one can touch Rafiji.
Mr. Nair, the last time I saw Rafi on stage, Usha Timothy was with him. And the last song I heard him sing live was “Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera” with Usha. He would deliberately mix the “aaja aaja’s” with “jaaja jaaja’s” and make panting sounds; Rafi4 in full form. The crowd was going wild and he motioned to his orchestra to stop and said, “Arre wah, Kalkatta-walo ko kya ho gaya!” and then resumed his “aaja aaja’s”. None of the current-day singers can even compete with Rafi4.
Sanjay saab:
Yeh boom-boom kya hota hai mujhe malum nahin, lekin aap ne rock ‘n roll ki farmaish kiya, to main chhe gaane pesh kar raha hoon. The first was composed by Ravi, the second and third by Jai and the remaining three by your loRD. Song number 1 was such a hit that it was copyrighted by a Carribean calypso group. The second was used in an American film called Ghost World and has become very popular in the west (if you go through the comments, it’s mostly by Westerners). The fourth became the signature tune of the 60s and launched your loRD to instant fame. Does the voice sound “thin” to you? Is it “energetic” enough for you? Tell me honestly in which of these songs Kishore would have done a better job. Kyun Mt. Everest climb karne ka koshish kar rahe ho, gir jaoge. Kya MAST MAST, theek bola na?
1. Baar baar dekho: http://youtube.com/watch?v=75SRg70XrVY
2. Jan pehchan: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHA_S48KRrI
3. Aaj kal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=rBEXkwlQ_Ew&mode=related&search=
4. Aaja aaja: http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3p4w7S6n9o&mode=related&search=
5. O haseena: http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3O9ZuBBysc&mode=related&search=
6. Ek bechara: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gcRFCZPZXZk
Met Usha Timothi the other day who accompanied RAFI saab
for 38 – world tours apart from indian concerts.
In one concert in A.Pradesh, there was a large crowd creating
a stampede in yet another sold out show.. she said…
Rafi saab called the organisers and said : please open the gates
and allow the people in : and debit the cost on my account…
This was Mohd Rafi – the eternal singer – for the people – in all
corners of the world….P e o p l e just love him ….
binu nair
Kishorda is the best.
If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.
The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.
If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.
Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda. Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only. Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.
Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means – In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best. I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious. If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.
So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..
The eyewitness in my previous post was not me; I found this anecdote on another website. I found it hugely amusing because I’ve had similar experiences at Rafi-Kishore concerts in Calcutta. In fact, I told you earlier that organizers of concerts used to keep Rafi as the last performer, for fear of crowd trouble. From the comments of some of my Bengali brothers and sisters, it seems Calcutta has changed now. And, my fellow Rafians, let me tell you something that you are mistaken about — there is no one more popular than Rafi. If you consider that he was at his creative best till around 1971, it’s been 36 long years and yet generations upon generations of listeners adore him, Orkut and FM channels notwithstanding.
Whenever he came to Calcutta for concerts, police used to be deployed in large numbers. The junta really used to go wild at his very sight. Some used to wait for Rafi1 to sing, some for Rafi2, and quite a few for Rafi4. He was four singers rolled into one. In 1974, when he came to sing at Kala Mandir, there was lathi charge outside the auditorium. In the following day’s Anandabazar Patrika, one of the headlines was “Ey monihar amar nahi saje”, the first line of the famous song that Tagore wrote after winning the Nobel. Apparently, Rafi had sung this line to the reporter who was interviewing him. It was my fervent hope that one day he would cut a Rabindrasangeet disc but that was not to be.
Kishore was not only great, he was unique. I can only have respect for a singer who displaced the mighty Rafi, albeit for five years, a feat that no other singer was able to accomplish. But if you take the entire gamut of songs, it’s always going to be Rafi. I’m sure Talat and Mukesh were better in some dimensions, but overall, if you consider everything, there can be only RAFI! As Manna-da so aptly remarked, “No one can touch Rafi”.
When He Sang Arrey Rafta Rafta Dekho
This is an eyewitness’s account, in the person’s own words.
Calcutta ke ek show mein Kishore Daa aur Rafi Sahab ek saath maujood the. Rafi sahab gaa kar utre aur Kishore ji stage par aaye….logon ne hangama kar diya, wo sirf Rafi Sahab ko sunna chah rahe the….log badtameezi par utar aaye na jane kya kya phenkne lage aur uchhalne lage….
Rafi saab, fauran green room se nikal kar aaye aur bole theek hai main gaata hoon….aur gaana shuru kiya ‘arey rafta rafta dekho aankh meri ladi hai….’
Do liney gaa kar logon se request kiya ke doosron ko bhi sune wo bhi itni door se aapka dil behlane ke liye aaye hain.
Aur jo do lines gaaeen wo aap sabhi jaante hain ke kishore ji ke gaaye huye gaane ki hain.
If “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” is the only yardstick, then:
1. Kishore Kumar is the best singer for all regional music as well. I do not know how many South Indian songs Kishore has sung, but I doubt if any South Indian singer was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING””!!
2. Kishore is by far the best Bengali singer ahead of Dhananjay, Satinath, Manna, Hemanta, Manabendra. None of them was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING”. How many KK fans agree to that?
3. Yes KK was God-gifted. That’s why anyone with the same vocal quality would sing exactly the way KK sang. Case in point: Amit Kumar. I personally DO NOT FIND ANY DIFFERENCE between Amit and his dad, except that his dad was more focused and hence was a legend.
If someone had exactly the same vocal quality of Rafi, he would not be Rafi. Because Rafi was not all about vocal quality. As Lata said “his taan and harkatein were inimitable”…Rafi’s strength lay in his “taan and harkatein”-the ability to play with words, feelings, maatras.
Dear Manish:
Some writers here are in the constant habit of putting the
cart before the proverbial horse : they are bent upon comparing
Mohd Rafi with Kishore : with half baked statements and a few
facts…… Kishore has some very good songs and we love him
for that..
However these half knowledge wordsmiths can never in their
entire lives be able to mar the legend Mohd Rafi’s 36 years of
contribution to the Indian Music Industry….
binu nair
We talking about KK singing a limited number of songs better than Rafi does bring up the point that we NEED ALL SINGERS and can’t live with just one. While I rate Rafi as greatest, I need KK too – he makes my life and my musical collection better. Right singer for the right song. My most recent favorite KK song is “Agar Tum Na Hote” I can only enjoy it so much thanks to Kishore! India is superior to USA in two things at least: food and music. What a great tradition of vocalists India has!
Sanjay,
I think you’re absolutely right to say that some songs Kishore could sing better than Rafi. However, this has been addressed before, P Haldar mentioned in his first post that there is the “Kishore Dimension” of songs where yeah, Kishore sings better than anyone – including Rafi. All the songs you mentioned fit exactly that category. Do bear in mind though, that many of those songs come from RDB and Bappi – these two composers composed the song with KK specifically in mind – so the songs are INHERENTLY in favor of Kishore. Nevertheless, this is a very limited category and there are a great number of songs where I think Rafi can sing better. At the same time, I am always doubt ful to discount a great singer like Rafi. While I agree with you that no one could have sung Khaike Pan better than KK, I’d still give a great singer like Rafi a slim chance of pulling off an upset (one can never discount his magic). Never count out a great singer. Case in point: Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana. I never knew there was a Rafi version for a long time. Always thought that KK’s version could never be beat. Then I hear Rafi version and I’m swept away but its superiority.
As for Rafi having a “weak” tone: that’s totally unfair. In many Rafi-KK duets the two had equal tone. In Zindagi Ek Safar (btw, I’ve said this many times, I liked Rafi’s version MUCH BETTER) Rafi shows better tonal quality in fact. I think some more knowledgeabl posters will give you a nice list where Rafi’s tone is great but here’s a Rafi-Lata gem that I like where he sings in a strong voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b52lLgeG8Ww
Coincidentally, the song IS in high pitch but that is NOT to compensate for softness, the voice itself is strong in Rafi here. You should never try to generalize his voice – it was very versatile and he could modulate like no other.
Sanjay ji….
It is the melody than counts…. you cant become besurra…..
if you are a great singer…. Confidence is one imp. thing in
any job… Rafi saabh took up the challenge and sang all type
of songs – immortalising them… He never would say : give
this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am
saying this…here..
Two facts here: The producers and distributors would always
dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
almost three decades in the hindi film industry….
Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….
More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
else included then I will bet and lose my – last penny….
More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
century by the Times of India Publications – survey….
So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
not hold water…
binu